Making a Difference in Corporation's DEI Actions

Bannon Company. As such, she oversees the company's global diversity, equity and inclusion practice, and she joins us on the phone in Chicago. Julie, nice to have you here with us. How are you? I'm doing fine, Carol, how are you doing today? I'm doing well. I keep thinking the summer is going to get quiet, and I keep getting fooled. It's not tell me how busy you've been in terms of your practice. You know it's been crazy busy, just like you're describing there. I think that the um the

floods are unleashed a little bit. Obviously with all the events of course, the pandemic, but then after the murder of George Floyd, the number other events around racial hatred a lot of companies started asking themselves what do we need to be doing differently around the topics of diversity, equity, inclusion to try and create more space, more opportunity for all talents across the board, and that has kept us quite busy both internally and working with our clients on

actions to take to try and really move the needle on outcomes. What's the typical situation, Julie, when you work with a client that you walk into, what are the problems, what's the what's the think that our corporate think that needs to change? Give me, give me some ideas, you know. I think there can be a variety of situations, but

often leadership has identified that there's a gap. There's a gap somewhere, could be in representation or not they're having talents of diverse backgrounds represented in the workforce in on their leadership team and sufficient numbers. It can be a gap and live experience, lived experience whether or not the employees again of different backgrounds, races, gender, etcetera, are having the same experience and are feeling the same sense of belonging,

support and trust in the organization. And so from what we've got is a leadership team that said, we know we have a tought an issue, we know even opportunity, but we're not sure what actions we can take. We're not sure we're to start, and we're not sure necessarily what are some of the best things we can do

to try and move the needle. And some of the work that we've put out in this recent paper around some proven actions that we know can change the outcomes around both retention, recruitment as well as overall employee sentiment are things that we're working with employers on today and our clients to try and really make a difference. Um, step by step. It's a long journey, by the way. It's something you change overnight, but you gotta get started somewhere. Well.

And it's funny that you say that, because I think about in the last year and a half or so, right coming off of the pandemic, coming off of George Floyd, how many conversations we've all had about wait a minute, the injustices in society, the inequities. It's not new, folks, It's been around for a long time. We're talking about it, though, it feels like in a different way. But enough of talk,

let's take steps and actions. To change it exactly. I think that's the set to mention of many, not just the broader population based As you mentioned, people care about this more and more and they're selecting their next role when they're talking with the companies they work for. But leaders themselves are saying enough of the talk, where how do we take some actions that can make a difference.

And so in this most recent report that we put out, we tried to talk through ten action that we think have real evidence and research behind them that really moved the change the outcomes that I mentioned on things like recruitment, on things like retention, and so some of the specific actions in particular that can make a difference UM around first of all, having real c suite commitment and accountability.

That means having real leadership identified as accountable for these outcomes, sharing some of your information, being more public with your aspirations and your goals, but also allows a lot of resources to allocating resources. And I should say two differing ways of both changing the way we recruit, changes the way we talk with one another, changing the way we think about our next assignments, etcetera. UM and I can talk a little bit more abou a few practices in

a few moments. Well, and what's interesting too, Well, talk to us about those practices, um and tell us specifically, you know, tell us a little bit about what you're doing. Yeah, maybe I'll just pick at least one to start with, Carol.

Around this idea of talent acquisition, I think so many people say, Okay, well, how do I try and get more talents here in my organization of different backgrounds and so one of the things we've been talking a lot about is adopting a skills first approach to talent acquisition. So often we have credentials in place. You need a four year degree to do this, you need ten years

experience to do this. But instead of focusing on those credentials which do not always equates to actually being successful in the job, if we can be a little bit more skills first as a clear way to mitigate this, uh, these exclusionary practices, So you think about folks that might have demonstrated quoting skills or demonstrated um uh different skills and operational settings and being able to address look for those.

Put your recruiting apparatus looking for those and looking for part ownership supply organizations in different cities and geographies where you can really start to get a flywheel going of finding folks with the skills you need and then being able to have success and then helping you grow that talent base over time. Right, go to different pools. Right, We keep hearing that over and over. Don't keep going in the same place as to recruit if you really

want to mix things up. Having said that, how important is it when a company is recruiting that their C suite, their board And I'm obviously talking about publicly health companies here at this point, but I mean private companies have boards as well too, But I mean, how important is it that from the top down you're seeing diversity inclusion? It's you know, you've got to walk the talk. Absolutely, it couldn't be more important. Actually, you're right onto something.

And first of all, it has to be present in the representation in that boardroom and in that C suite, and where there are gaps in diverse representation, there has to be clear focus on ways in which you're going to build that pipeline over time. With succession planning in particular, though, we also look for those boards and those management teams to set clear aspirations and goals, to be publicly talking about what those goals are and then creating usually some

sort of oversight body. It can be a sub committee of the board, it can be a pass force, it can be a council. But it's a group of leaders that are truly empowered to not only set out those aspirations, but to take those actions and be held accountable for progress on the various areas of improvements the company has

set out in front of it. And I think saying really communicating well interparently to your organization internally and to your customers externally is quite important along this multi year journey. Truly what gives you hope that something is going to be different this time around? And forgive me, I'm a very optimistic person. I believe in change. I've seen changes happen. But it's safe to say it's pretty upsetting that we're

still talking about diversity inclusion. You know, um, after decades of supposed, you know, everybody understanding that there are problems out there and supposed to be working to make it change, you know, to make it better. Absolutely know, Carl's the right push and I am optimistic by nature as well, and I'm really optimistic this time because of the way I hear my colleagues and our clients talk about this.

I think there's been an awareness growth of the pro inequities in our society, but that there are things that the corporation can do, whereas maybe ten fifteen years ago, too often we look towards governments, are not for profits to still these you know, to fix these problems, to address these gaps. And now we're saying, look, if we have a racial wealth gap in this country, the corporations are the ones of the jobs. We have to take

actions to make a difference. And I'm so proud for us to be a founding member of the one ten Coalition as an example of a group of companies over fifty that have come together now and maybe a pledge that we're gonna hire one million Black Americans over the next ten years into family sustaining wage jobs with real career growth, and they're not going to require a four

year degree. It's the commitments to skills based hiring. It's a commitments career path, an advancement to Black Americans is a way to really make meaningful progress on the wealth gap.

And we've got, like I said, busy blue chip employers that have made that commitment and are working now on um listing those jobs in the various communities, and we're working on talent partnerships in those communities to sort of have that halfway of different groups of talent with the right upskilling opportunities to be ready for these jobs and to take advantage of these opportunities. So I'm doing so

quick math. You said, um, a million Black Americans over ten years fifty I think blue chip companies are companies that are involved in this, so that I think works out to two thousand Black Americans a year. I mean, could we not do this faster? And if we can't, why, well the good I mean, look, this is one coalition. If I think they're gonna be many that are formed, there's a there's a number of other coalitions out there in New York City themselves. But you know what I'm

getting You know what I'm getting to. It's it's I think, yeah, go ahead, sorry interrupt as I say the reason we can't go faster. First of all, I think we can and we should push faster, but we have to realize that talent acquisition is just the beginning. What you really need is to also shape the culture, shape the environment to ensure that this talent will be successful in the

organizations that it joins. That means creating different levels of mentorship, sponsorship, career growth opportunities, and real focus on the lived experience for a group of individuals that may not walk in the door right off the bat, trusting their employer or believing they have a sense of belonging the way other groups that have see themselves more in the majority, like

their leadership team might feel that way. So it takes investments over time to both get the new talent or the existing talent in seat and then grow into the leadership roles and keep that flywheel going. And I think that the worst thing we could do is rush and try and over recruit beyond the organization's ability to maintain and create an environment where that talent can thrive well and to interesting. You know, you do talk about and you shared some notes with us, but about mentoring and

sponsorship programs. How early does that need to start to really make it effective and make a difference. You know, honestly,

I think it can't start too soon. We think about it inside band and a lot of our clients are doing the same with from that moment of offer, who is that person that's really connected with that individual and acts as that first colleague or friend and can help them understand the organization, navigate the decision process, and then when they start their job, be there to help them understand the lay of the lands, whether we're remote or in person, but when the office, how that works, how

the different norms and communication styles work. And then over time, I think this has a transition into more of a coaching mentoring relationship where someone in more of a leadership role in their function, in their business unit, in their division takes a specific interest in helping that person navigate career choices and growing further into their job. So I think it's too late if you wait till the third promotion before we say, oh, yes, we should mentor you

even more. I think this is something that starts at the ground up and creates what we like to call a ring of support for this talent as they're arriving, and it just grows and um evolved over time as the needs of the person involved. We're talking with Julie Kaufman. She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global diversity, equity and inclusion at Bay and Company. Still with us on the phone from Chicago, Julie, What I do wonder too when

it comes to diversity equity inclusion. You work with clients across a lot of industries and regions. Are there variations when it comes to the industry or variations when it comes to the region when it comes to d EI needs or problems? Absolutely, I think there are variations based

on the mix in the community. So from a regional standpoint, you might have parts of our country that there's more of a lot next population, parts of the country there's more Asian American population, or the mix may change for that. And then an industry is for sure both functional types you know, engineers and one industry versus you have more artisans and other industries, perhaps more manufacturing jobs in some

places and more white collar and other places. So you have to flex these um different tools if you will, have these different actions to meet the needs of the populations. But the thing that is common in my experience in a way across industries and regions is the importance of listening and the importance of really understanding the lived experience of your employees, especially those from underrepresented background such that you can then understand where there are gaps and understand

opportunities to sort of provide more support. Whether it isn't the spirit of coaching and mentoring that we were just discussing. Maybe it's training, maybe it's career pappening, but maybe it's also just better communications around um the performance management processes

or the growth process that your company. But there is no substitute for really understanding the differences and lived experience across different populations that your company and then putting together action plans to try and move that forward to a place where folks are really thriving in their roles. Julie, do you think we need to put it back into effect.

Quotas we've argued are some of our our team on the opinion side have argued and reported on how quotas have helped in terms of bringing more women into the workplace. What's your take in terms of quotas when it comes to minorities. Yeah, quote is like so many words. Get is a loaded term, and I know creates the antibodies, which is a topical term as well. I guess these

days among COVID. But you know, we've thought about it more like goals and quotas we've thought about progress versus absolute right like guys, my strong belief is that if we're talking to a client, we're talking a lot about how diversus your leadership team, how diversus your workforce, and do they mirror one another. What you should be aspiring to is, of course, a workforce that mirrors the customers you serve or the communities you reside in, and a

leadership team that mirrors that work force. And if we can start to get those ratios more in line and they're less gaps and we can grow the talent that way, I think that's an effective approach as opposed to setting absolute numerical targets, which can always be subject to reasons that they're difficult and given industry, given community, etcetera. Um So, my own personal due is to stick to things like

the right goals and aspiration. Now, now, one thing I will say, though, is I really believe in the importance of measurable outcomes and metrics. And it can be progress forwards, it can be mixed oriented, it can be ratios as I just talked about, but I do think you need tangible, measurable outcomes that you are holding yourself accountable to and talking about your progress or gaps to getting there. You know, it's interesting. Are Lisa Brahmo. It's one of the hosts

of Bloomberg Surveillance on Bloomberg Radio and Bloomberg TV. She's got an opinion Bloomberg opinion column that's out on the Bloomberg and she's specifically talking about the wealth gap and what the Fed does or doesn't do in terms of perpetuating it. And she's saying, you know, the Fed to cries a wealth gap that it helps perpetuate. And the longer the Central Bank continues alter easy monetary conditions, the more the richest families benefit disproportionately. How can bodies like

the Federal Reserve help in this process? Yeah, that's a great question, and I I've seen that piece. Actually, I think seems terrific. It's not my area of expertise, you know, to be completely honest to you, in terms of federals or but I do think that you know what I mean, in terms of bigger policies by something like the Fed

O our policymakers. Yeah, well, like you know, the Childcare Act or you know, ability to try and get kids out of poverty, abilities to help families have supports such that they can then uh be working in the workplace, but at the same time not worrying that they're going to have their kids not have the care they need. I think those are important steps, and I think in general, thinking about ways that companies that are meeting certain goals

are providing more support to those employees. You know, maybe there's creative ways from policy standpoints that we're um helping those organizations have stimulus to do those type of things. But I do think that this is a place where private sector public sector needs to work together, and they're

not for profitive of role to play as well. This is a systemic, multi generational problem, as you said well before, Carol, So it's going to take all of these different aspects of our society to come together and try and make differences here. You know what's interesting, Julie, I don't know if you saw this. This was a story in Bloomberg Business Week and it was a profile piece of Laura Murphy. She's former director of the a c l U Legislative Officer.

She's a pioneer of the Corporate Civil Rights Audit, which is a new tool for getting companies to really confront their role in perpetuating racial disparities. She spent two years auditing Facebook. She's a senior advisor to Airbnb. What you

know internal or external controls? Do you in vain or do you think companies have to have to confront you know, a firm or a company or institution's role in perpetuating those racial disparities, because sometimes they're there without individuals really know. We talk about bias uh in data. So I'm just curious your thoughts on that. Yeah, I love that, and

I think, um, those are super important. Like if you think about the way our regulatory and our financial system works, right, everybody is there's a there's a defined set of terms that we do and we report our financials as a corporation. Right,

there's revenue, this costs, there's the gap accepted metrics. And yet what we don't have on the topic that you just talked, you know, talked about here with racial equity, if you will, is an accepted way to talk about what does good look like and what doesn't it look like? And what's the right office that we have a language

and we can start to hold folks accountable. I think we need outcomes metrics as well as process metrics that can demonstrate this is what good looks like, and you are a company should be certified if you will, or at least have a report card on where you're doing well and where you're falling short. And there's a number of those sorts of audit in things like the environment

and climate other places. I think it needs to be in this area as well, that we should really come together and try and agree on a pool set and a set of outcome metrics like you're describing, to help companies know where they stand right. You know, it's interesting because I do feel like we talk a lot about E S G. I know these are things you're familiar with and other things. You know companies are paying attention to that too, But unless we have the metrics to

really measure it. I'm I'm a numbers person, and so I know not everything you can put a clear number on it. But the more we can clearly define what E S G is, R D E I is, the better we can move towards it as a goal. Agree, I think if you don't have holes that you can measure.

When we talked about this, at beIN a lot that we have got to have a tangible way to define the success, a number or set of numbers that can measure how far we are from that, and then a mechanism for getting into the root causes of why is it not moving or why is it not moving as quickly as we'd like, and how do we start to address those root causes to get at that outcomes that we've all agreed is the right one to measure and absence more globally or countrywide established set of metrics that's

going to be left to each company to define their own and part of what we're hoping with this research paper and others start to have a basis of conversation of could we develop more standard set of outcomes that more companies would utilize, and then we might be able to have this dialogue in a different fashion, as you suggest. One last question, So I'm thinking about our audience that's listening. It's a bunch of business leaders, organizational leaders, uh, an

investment audience. I mean, if they need to go back to their institution and really think about their d I d e I policies. Um, what would be one first big step that you would say that they need to do. Yeah, I think the most important first step is to take stock, right, take stock of where are we today? Are we talking about this? Do we have a common definition of what we think good looks like? And do we have an aspiration and a goal? And do we know how far

we are from that? Until we as a leadership team agree that this is the core gender strategic imperative item and we have us shared under standing of where we are and when we would wish to be and we know how to define that gap, we are going to

have a hard time with this conversation. So step one is for sure understanding and assessing a starting point, and then right after that is exploring if any of these key actions that I started to mention here and that are more in the paper released, are you doing those things or not. It's a quicker way that we start getting after and learning from the experience of others and sort of take stock of where are we and what

can we do differently. This is a time for action, not just talk, and we need to get moving forward on trying things that we know work. All right, kind of leave it there, Julie, Thank you so much. Julie Kaufman. She's Chief Diversity Officer ahead of Global Diversity Equity Inclusion over at Bannon Company, the consulting company, and joining us

on the phone from Chicago. Some great deep dives for us with Julie as well as with Kathy Wood and some others here on the Tuesday edition of Bloomberg Business Week.