Job Losses for 20.5 Million Americans

Week on iTunes, SoundCloud, bl Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio every weekday, or watch us on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News. Well, this is a conversation we've been looking forward to all week, Carol Masser and I have because he's our go to guy when it comes to jobs, and this one we have to understand fully. Chris lew back with a senior fellow at the University

of Virginia Miller Center. He's also a former Deputy Secretary of Labor under President Obama, worked across all three branches of government. He joins us on the phone from Washington. Chris, great to talk to you, and what a day to try and make sense of it all. Yeah, you know, I remember the very first jobs report we got in the Obama administration. We had lost eight hundred thousand jobs

January two thousand nine h This is twenty five times bigger. Uh, And so this is staggering for people like me who um every Friday look at these numbers and used to a hundred thousand up, hundred thousand down. To see twenty million losses is it's it's it's hard to explain. So I do wonder too, And this is where your insight and your experience really helps us out. Chris, is what are the conversations that you think are going on inside

the White House? UM about this? Because obviously a lot of steps have already been taken to help out workers, but we know these numbers are going to be tough for a while. And I do wonder about the conversations we need to be having about once we get through the virus and things start to reopen. Well, you know, the conversation that should be happening is to treat this as a public health crisis, which is what it is. Because until you get that public health crisis fixed or

it gets to get it reduced. Um, you can't really start to deal with rebuilding the economy. And and that's the problem where we are right now. We're kind of half reopening the economy, but not really fully dealing with the public health issues. You know, we continue to have cases at a steady state, well over twenty new cases every day. We've continue to have well over two thousand

deaths every day. Uh. And and that's the problem because all of the U. S economy or the U. S economy is based on consumer spending, and consumers spend money when they feel confident, and right now there's not a lot of confidence. And so you could reopen parts of the economy, but that's not going to make a big difference. The only difference you're probably going to make is you may actually be undoing some of the great work that's

happened over the last six weeks. And so, Chris, help us understand where you see that consumer economy in these numbers, because we see it, you know, really in the breakdown. It feels like of the types of workers who lost their job, they are you know, they're working in in a lot of consumer facing things because people aren't out they're not spending money, so help us understand that aspect

of it. Yeah, well, well it's a great point because the leisure in hospitality, seven point seven million jobs was lost, which is sort of what you'd expect. The challenge there is that, you know, if you think about something like airlines or hotels or tourist areas, those might not come back even if the economy is fully opened, because that again depends on consumer confidence. But what was striking about

these numbers is how across the board they work. You lost the million jobs in construction and manufacturing and healthcare, you lost two million in professional and business services. You started to see some of the hemorrhaging of state government. So this is uh and across the board economic downturn. And if you're sitting in the White House, you're probably trying to figure out, Okay, how much of this is permanent,

how much is this temporary? Which of these industries is most likely to bounce back, Which are the ones need a little bit of help to stabilize or or to grow eventually in the future. Well, that is certainly something our Bloomberg News team has been tackling over the last week. Chris and and We've written numerous stories about how much of the temporary workers who've lost their jobs become permanent. With your knowledge of the labor markets, how much do

you think comes back, how much doesn't. Well, what's interesting in these numbers is about of the job losses, at least as the Bureau of Labor Statistics characterized, it was considered temporary. And if you look at polls of workers, about seventy of workers in a recent poll said their layoffs are temporary. Now, that may not be consistent with the reality of where business owners, restaurant owners are as well.

And the problem is that, you know, as this continues, this shutdown continues to go on, a lot of those moments, top businesses, which are such a driver of the US economy just won't be able to come back. Um, they already were operating under very small profit margins, and they just might make the decision they come back, can't come back, or they can't come back until they get fully reopened.

Because even in the states where there are reopening uh right now, they're still operating under you know, restaurants can only have capacity, cables have to be six ft apart. That's hard to really kind of turn a profit or be fully employed with those restrictions. Yeah, that's such a

really that's such an interesting point. And I've been thinking a lot about that, Chris, that you know, even if you are able to reopen, I mean, I think about you know, the restaurants and retail establishments here in my little town in suburban New York that you know, maybe they don't hire everyone back. Maybe they reopened, and maybe they don't hire people back for six twelve months or or ever. And I would imagine that's hard to model

at this point. Well, and it's hard to adele. And then it's hard to figure out what the economic remedy is that because so much of the relief programs that are out there are intended for either businesses that are fully closed or for workers that are completely unemployed. We don't really know what to do if we've got you know, the workers coming back but only working part time, which is also an important thing that was in space jobs.

You know, five million people, there's five million additional people were registered as working um part time, not by their own choice. Uh, And so I think that's something that's not fully considered within these numbers that we have a huge number of people unemployed. We've got a lot of people who are underemployed as well. All right, well, stick

with us. We're going to continue this conversation. Always good to talk with Chris Lew, senior fellow down at the University of Virginia Miller Center, and of course former Deputy Secretary of Labor under President Obama, and some great context right there at the top that you know, they looked at eight hundred thousand jobs lost and probably at that moment thought this is catastrophic, and today twenty five times that. Wow, it's remarkable. All Right, we'll continue that conversation with Chris.

In just a moment, you are listening to Bloomberg Radio, we are talking with Chris Lew, senior fellow at the University of Virginia Miller Center, former Deputy Secretary of Labor under President of Bama, still with us on the phone from Washington, d C. You know, Chris, I was just thinking about as Charlie Pellett recapped the markets, and we talked at the top of our show that despite this staggering monthly jobs report, which we knew was going to

be kind of mind blowing, um investors increasingly certainly equity investors are looking past it, and you know, we've got a risk on trade today. I am always curious about how much internal talk goes on at the White House, UM and at the various departments about what's going on in the financial markets and particularly in the stock market.

We certainly have a president who watches it very closely, But I'm just curious how much of that did you guys think about, and how much should we as leaders also take that into account when when thinking about policy and moves. Well, look, I think it's certainly one measure of the health, the economic health of the country, but it's probably not the one that most Americans can relate to.

You know, when we were in the obob administration at the depths of the Great Recession, you know, we were laser focused on these jobs announcements every month, UM, trying to figure out how we get ourselves out of the whole as well as the jobs that were created to the very stimulus measures. I can't ever remember sort of focusing on what the Dow or s and T we're doing, and I certainly don't think we ever sent President Obama

out to tout about that. You know, part of because the relatively small number of Americans that own stock at all, whether um individual stocks, neutral funds, or four in one case. I think it has been a mistake of President Trump to continue touting this on the way up, because you pat it on the way up, you own it on

the way down. But I think on a day like today, we especially see the disconnect between where the market is and what everyday Americans are feeling, and so, Chris, you know, part of what's got to happen next, presumably, is everybody in Washington has to get on something close to the same page about where to put additional stabilization or stimulus funds or rescue funds, depending on how you want to characterize it or how one wants to characterize it. What

is the advice you would give, especially to lawmakers. You're very familiar with the Congress and how it works in terms of where they can and should be putting a next round, which could be the last round of stimulus or stabilization. Yeah, I think you're right. I think this next round is I would say it's the next round is probably the last round of economic relief. We may be on economic stimulus after that. Uh, there's a couple of things that jump that come to mind. One is

the enhanced unemployment benefits. Those expire at the end of July. That's the extra six hundred dollars a week that went into people's unemployment checks. That probably needs to be extended. Maybe not at the six hundred dollar level, but probably something. I do think that there needs to be an infusion

of money and to stay in local government. We didn't see many job losses in this round of of data, but you know, when I hear Governor Cuomo saying that New York is running a fifteen fifteen billion dollar deficit, or Governor Whitmer in Michigan saying they're running a three billion dollar deficit and they have no ability to raise revenues at this point or even collect the revenues that are owed to them, So they're going to have to

start to layoff teachers and police and firefighters. That's the next round of layoffs unless we provide some some additional relief to them. And I still think more needs to be done with the p p P program um and particularly in terms of targeting it to really really small businesses. And I know this isn't your your your world Chris, but I mean I am still blown away. And Jason

I talked about this a lot. You know, we hear everyone, whether it's a CEO, whether it's members of Congress, whether it's governors, talking about the importance of testing, and it still seems like there is such, um, you know, a roadblock when it comes to that that if we talk about reopening the economy and how important that is, but yet it still feels like we're not getting to our testing. What what is the roadblock that you see or where's

the problem? Well, look, I think that the approach this administration has taken from day one has you know, they started going down the road that they were going to ceneralize this and then they sort of pulled back and kind of left it to the state, uh into the private sector, and it's become kind of the wild West right now. And unfortunately, this is only the kind of thing that the federal governments effectively do. And we can

look at the contrast. We look at South Korea, which does have much more aggressive testing, which really has been imposing a structor of social distancing requirements and as a results of that, they've been able to keep their cases down and actually have some kind of a functioning economy. So really this is the federal government that you take charge of this issue. Well, thank you so much, Chris.

We really always appreciate the time you find for us, and really a nice in depth conversation again with Chris lou Thank you so much, senior fellow, University of Virginia, Miller Center, former Deputy Secretary of Labor under President Obama. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Well on Saturday tomorrow. America's live sports industry, largely shuttered since March, It's gonna lurch back

into action big time. Our Evan Kobie Williams actually writes that on the terminal. We're gonna talk about that little bit more later, but in the meantime, also writing about the UFC in a timely story on Bloomberg Business Week. It's in the magazine this week. It's about how the UFC the dominant force in Marshall Mixed Martial Arts. Excuse me, m m A has been fighting. Come on, Carol, I'm trying to get too much in here. I should just go to the story. Josh Idolson morning here. Darn, I'm

so glad it's Friday. Josh Idle said, his labor reporter at Bloomberg News. He wrote this story. It's really interesting because it gets into some of the allegations against the UFC. Josh is on the phone from Palo Alto, also with us at Joe Webber, Bloomberg Business Week editor on the phone in Brooklyn. Uh and Joel, UM, come on in on here, because UM, just reading even just the beginning of this story about what one fighter says he has gone through is really gut wrenching. Well, I mean, you

can watch it UFC fighting. You see the guys get into the octagon, and UM, you have to assume that it's at least got wrenching. But I think what Josh's story is ultimately about is what happens sort of outside the ring. Um. I think this is a really finally important story. UM. For a for the reason that you said at the top, which is this is as as Americans,

I think right now we are creating sports. UFC is almost going to be the first one to really address that with this about small But the bigger story here is is that jeez are fighters who are effectively contractors, they're untrajected workers. And if we're a decade now, there's been this case sort of building against UFC that's basically an anti trust case. Um, Josh, you want to come in there, what's the what's the context that the fighters

are are kind of uh finding themselves uniting a run. Sure, this is a five billion dollar antitrust monopoly case. And when people talk about monopoly in the US, they're often talking about how companies get an advantage over consumers. In this case does allege that the UFC has monopolized the market for selling abouts, but it's also about what's called monopsony, which is when you're a monopoly in dealing with your workers.

That the UFC has monopolized the labor market so that workers don't have much else to turn to if they don't like what the UFC is offering them. As we say in the story, it's like the ground in pound that you might see in the octagon. According to the plaintiffs, that these workers are trapped, there's not somewhere else to go.

And then the company has been able to layer on more and more restrictive rules and keep a much larger share of the revenue for the ownership rather than the players, then you would see in a lot of major league sports,

and I'm actually to that end like that. I think one of the most interesting little details that Josh found out through his reporting was like, even if as a fighter you were going to have some sort of endorsement deal over time, UFC has actually intermediated that relationship and said, we'll actually negotiate those sponsorships for you and then give you just you know, a share that we say is reasonable, which I just think, you know, it's sort of an

interesting twist. M Josh. I also just want to talk about his sports in general, because this isn't unique to UFC. Every other sporting league has has versions of of this where there are the players and the owners or the leagues and there's always that relationship. I'm thinking of baseball specifically.

So how do we view this case in that context. Well, the argument that plaintiffs would make is they are just the latest to go through these struggles, and that it's a struggle that in every other great sport comes along eventually, as one of them said, and where the players have won. So there is the Muhammad Ali Act in boxing, there

is free agency, now in baseball. And an interesting thing about this history is that each time there's been this conflict, management has argued, this will destroy the sport if you change it in this way. Now Here again you have these fighters saying they should have more leverage in dealing with management, and UFC has said that this lawsuit is an attack not just on them, but a threat to

business's ability to be risk taking in successful Elsewhere. UFC says there wouldn't be much competition in m m A without them, because there wouldn't be much of an m m A industry in the first place without them. Well, and it's an argument, Josh, that's sort of like turns onto itself because they have been very savvy about and and you described this so well in the story about essentially just buying everything up and so this whole idea of it wouldn't exist without us. It's like, yeah, it

wouldn't because you've got the market cornered. So how does this get figured out? Well, any day now or any month now, we could have a ruling on class certification come down from a federal district judge in Nevada. Judges when they're ruling gets work from home also So we are on the cusp of a very big step in this case, which is the judge ruling either for or against certifying a class of what could be twelve hundred fighters.

We would really turbocharge this lawsuit and change the discussion about the lawsuit and about what it might look like if it could be settled. Now, UFC says this is not just a bad lawsuit, but a destructive legal theory behind the lawsuit, and that they're committed to defeating it. And in fact, the judge has already said he is confident that however he rules, this is going to get appealed to Federal Appeals Court, could get appealed from there

to the U. S. Supreme Court. So we are five years into a legal struggle that could go on much further, but that is going to take a new form very soon with this judge's ruling that will get noticed, as scholars told me, not just in m m A, but in all sorts of companies. But I do wonder, Josh, if there was more competition in mm A, would we

not be having this discussion and why isn't there more competition? Well, the argument of the laws suit is that there are a series of different exploitative practices that have gone on that reinforce each other. The lawsuit talks about everything from exclusive contract with sponsors to the contracts with the fighters,

and there's a catch twenty two in that. The one of the phrases that comes up in some of the internal correspondence that's been unearthed is people you have seen talking about choking off the oxygen to their competition, and in particular they mean the players. So you deprive the competing promoters of the chance to get at the players. You deprive the players of having somewhere else to go if they don't like what's being proposed in your contract.

And these are contracts that allegedly become effectively perpetual because UFC has a chance to extend them for everything from you got injured too, you became a champion. It's like an mm A sweatshop is kind of to some extent going on. So this case sounds and we're so craved for sports, I know, I know, Well that's exactly the point. That's going to be millions of people that watch, and you know he again is also in need of it.

Unless you want to watch Jordan's highlights from the nineties again, which, for the record, are our sensational film. Yeah yeah, nothing wrong with that, Nothing wrong with that. All right, Thank you both so much. I really appreciate it. It's a great story. It's on the terminal and on Bloomberger dot Com. In next week's issue of Bloomberg Business Week, Josh Idelson wrote at UFC wants you to watch brawls, not it's five billion dollar lawsuit. This is Bloomberg Business Week with

Carol Messer and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. Well, we talked with our next guest back in late March, as those COVID nineteen cases were adding up, back with us. Dr Penny Wheeler, who is president CEO at a Line of Health. They've got twelve hospitals in the Minnesotia Minnesota area, doctors about clinics, fifteen retail pharmacies um throughout that region. The system's total operating revenue in fiscal twenty eight was about four point four billions. So let's talk about the

virus in particular, what's going on in the Midwest. She joins us on the phone from Minnesota. Dr Wheeler, nice to have you back with us. How are you guys doing. Yeah, nice to be back. Thank you for having me. We're doing okay. I mean we've used that we still alright, just for cover Cuomo saying that down the downslope there on the New York side, we are still on the upfloat here in the Midwest. So but we've used the time, I think, to prepare and really kind of expand our

capacity for for the community that we're ready. So we're continue to see an uptick in cases and sadly in death as well in our geography. Well, let's talk about that, Dr Wheeler. What have you seen and what have you learned? I guess both in terms of preparation, but also you know, how has the virus been a little bit different maybe in the in the ways that it's played out. You know, obviously each state, each locality is a little bit different. I wonder what you see versus what we've seen maybe

on the coasts. Yeah, I think, Well, we're grateful, as as many governors have. We're grateful hour for our governors. Tim Wallas's actions on the physical distancing parameters and the closure and the decrease of elective surgery, and that allowed us to build up not only the personal protective equipment. But also like in our organization, we've doubled our intensive care unic capacity in that time, so we feel much more ready to take on the surge as we're still

approaching it. We still don't anticipate that surge in this geography, and all models are helpful for planning a flawed in some way, but we don't anticipate that surge until probably

fully into July now. But but it tells us, but it tells us to prepare, right, But it tells us a lot about because you guys had a little bit of a lead time, right to prepare that, whether it was taking some measures to stem the amount of cases that maybe you ultimately have to do with, but just getting your facilities ready, you know, because that's been a big debate, as you know, about the inability for many, certainly in these hotspots um to not be prepared, that

they weren't given maybe enough lead time about it. Boy, you are so right, and we are grateful that we had the lead time. And I think that we have a community, not just our organization, but we've actually collaborated with all the health systems in our geography to make sure we're preparing for that together well, and that time afforded. Us has used that and actually time to increase our testing and increase our personal protective equipment for the safety

of our staff as well. So I am curious about what you're seeing in terms of trends of the virus. One of the troubling stories that we talked about earlier was about what we're seeing in kids and trying to make sense out of, you know, different symptoms coming out. We're talking about rashes on kids, kids who we thought we're not, you know, vulnerable to this virus. Um just talk to us about what you're seeing in terms of the cases. Yeah, but boy, what we're learning something every day.

And even though thousands have been affected by this and and thousands have sadly died from this, we're still learning about this virus all the time. And you're right, it has many different manifestation it appears. And so we're actually for testing criteria. You know, it used to be coffin fever, right, and now the testing criteria for symptoms of things like fatigue or lots of smell or other things are expanding

for our testing criteria. Even as we see different manifestations of this diseases, most recently to your point, Carroll, the

one that we saw in children. And so Dr Wheeler, as a physician, what do you make and as someone who you know ultimately has to deal with this very much on the front lines at your facilities, what do you make about the debate that we're having across the country amid among everyone about reopening and you know what that looks like, and especially in a place like where you are, where as you say, it's still on on the upswing, how do you sort of come down on them.

I think that one of the things that we've learned is that we are going to have to coexist with this virus for a long time. So we're always going to have to dial up what we can be able to open, what we can be able to do, depending on what the community disease burden is in our communities.

So right now, for example, we've reopened some of the I will say scheduled surgeries because nobody really elects to have surgery very often, but the scheduled surgeries, we've been able to open some of those up um in before the wave because we've been seeing more people who need either they have intractable pain and need a hip replaced, or they have a tissue diagnosis that they need to

see if they have cancer. So these are kinds of things that if delayed too long, would cause patient farms who are having to balance those things with actually the viral load in our community, and I think we're just going to have to coexist and and be able to serve those things in addition to those who are affected by COVID at the same time. You know, this is going to obviously the old world's kind of gone and won't go back, and this is a virus we're gonna

be coexisting with for some time now. And how we tight trate up opening up our organization's healthcare, and how we tight trade opening up our communities and economies is going to have to be continually monitored and watched. Yeah, it's a really good point. The coexistence point, I think is a really good one and one that I think we're all starting to get our heads around, especially as we look at a day like today from a market

perspective and from an economic perspective. You know, this massive job loss that we're seeing across the country. Dr Penny Wheeler, thank you so much. Presiden Cyo. Good to visit with you again. A line of health on the phone from Minnesota, Carol. Yeah, we're gonna have to. We're gonna see a world where there's medical facilities. You know, if you've got the virus, here's where you go, and so that other facilities can open up and start doing kind of those normal testings

and screenings. I'm already seeing it in my world where you know, things you know that were canceled are being they're now reaching out to me to reschedule. Yeah, it's living with risk to some extent is one of the things we gotta get used to road macro journal now. But you let me drive. Oh no, no, no, no, drive home, honey, please, I'll do the riding drivel. I want to drive. Just drive, baby, the questions trying. This is the drive to the globe. Give me thanks. We'll

drying us down on bloom Bird Radio. Yep. And as we drive to the clothes on this Friday, getting ready to trap to wrap up another trading week, we are taking another leg up. We're pretty much hovering at our highs of this session. And I was just looking Jason at the five day moves on the Dawdly, SMP, and the NASA. We've had quite a rally this week now, Deck alone up about six percent two and a half percent and higher on the down the S and P up about three and a half per cent. So a

lot of optimism and the risk trade definitely on. So let's see what J. J. Kenahan has to say about it, Chief Market Strategies at t D A marriage trade. They've got one point to trillion in assets under management. Actually, yeah, got that right, uh? And J J joining us on the phone from Chicago. JJ, nice to have you here. Man investors. Yeah, I hope you're doing okay. UM investors definitely looking past, you know, still the numbers that we

increasingly get on the virus. We just checked in UM with the CEO of A Line of Health and they are, you know, still on an upward slope when it comes to the virus out there in the Midwest. Investors. Are they too optimistic too soon? Well? I think that the risk is uh, you know exactly what you're saying right now.

It's optimism. It's fantastic, but I think we have a risk to the market and probably four to six weeks when optimism perhaps meets the reality of businesses perhaps not opening fast enough for people's liking if you will, you know, you look at the jobs reports this morning showing all those jobs being laid off in you know, uh, restaurants and bars, etcetera. Hotels, you would expect that a lot

of those will come back. Although how long will take those those hotel jobs to come back in the hospitality industry? And you know, again, so I just think, as I look at that jobs reports this morning, will it take people longer to get back to work than the markets pricing in right now? And uh, in a market that's going to be driven by as you're referencing COVID news, maybe tariff news. Uh, you have another factor that in a few weeks, and that's going to be are we

getting back to work fast enough? Right? And so when you factor all of that in, you know, Carol mentioned and Charlie Peller mentioned he was running through the numbers. You know, tech has essentially looked entirely past all the drama and trauma of this year. Is tech sort of the safest place to be at this point? Generally? And what are some of the names you like there? Yeah? So I think in general, you know, Jason Tech obviously has been particularly the chip makers for the last couple

of years. I think have been the big surprise, because you know, all we talked about was they were going to get hit badly when we had tariffs, except etcetera. But then you look at a company like Quarribo q U r v O, I don't don't think I Querribo might be something a little different. Do you think you had to tonight J. J. Good, I'm thinking about I'm

thinking about five minutes from now. Quite honestly, you know, you look at their numbers today, not only phenomenal, at the biggest thing I thought about that willing to come out and say, here's what we're projecting, and we're projecting good numbers in a market where people are not projecting. And it's interesting the one stock that I thought in all these companies that have pulled their projections, there was only one stock. I thought God heard on that, and

that was actually Intel. If you remember that morning, they got hurt for not not projecting. So it is interesting to me that the chips continue to do pretty well during all of this, and I think that that's where we have to continue to look for leadership. Is it a good leading indicator. I believe it is. And because h A, if the demand there stops, what you're saying is so many electronic devices. Uh, their demand is slowing

down pretty considerably. Also, so even though Apple had you know, the sales there were a little bit disappointing in their recent earnings, the fact is, uh, we're still seeing demand overall for what you know, people replacing devices, buying new devices. And I think that that's a really really positive sign.

Not to say that that's going to be a straight line up also, but as people do get back to work, hopefully you see some pent up demand that j J. What do you make of the name like Macy's Right now, Carol and I were it's sort of in our chat that we have going back and forth on the sidelines of the show talking about that one, especially in light of what you saw with Neimans this week, what you saw with Jay Crew. I mean, Macy's is a troubled retailer.

It's a troubled company in a troubled industry. Do you stay away from retail at this point? Right? And which and and this and we should point out today right they delayed, Um, they're gonna they're announcement. Yeah, yeah, I saw they delayed the results. And actually the funny thing is the stock up on that news. But uh, you know, here's what I would say to most people want it is a five dollar stock though, Let's just remember but

that's exactly where I was going. Is when stocks get under ten dollars and you know, not on the ascension, but on the descension, I think a that's a little bit of a warning sign for most investors generally, when everybody in your sector seems to be saying that they're having trouble um and and let's face it, most of the Macy stories, particularly in Chicago and New York, take up some big real estate spaces. It's tough to put the amount of inventory in those uh spaces that that

makes them look filled. But on the other hand, you don't want to carry too much inventory, particularly with the swiftness with which you can do things online. So there they I think they're at that point where they're still deciding what they want to be and that's not a good place to live right now. And there's stock maybe up at their bonds are tumbling, and you know, in a case like this, i'd like to watch the debt markets for what it tells us Um, I don't know

you've seen market cycles, I don't know it. For me, it seems like it's going to be a while before we get back to kind of a normal market cycle with normal factors normal quote unquote, you know, impacting it. What's what's your thoughts? Got about forty seconds here? Uh yeah, sure, I think you're you're hitting out. I had I just think our our definition of normal is going to change

pretty significantly. Uh. The other thing being, at the end of the day, you know, talking about this in times of crisis, you want to go with perhaps lower beta stocks, companies that have a lot of cash, and in this market where of a ten year yield, you know about points about seventy five basis points, you want to maybe look for dividends at least for a while until to your point, Carl, you get more of a feel of

what normal will be. All right, Well, we're gonna leave it there paid the way for you to get Quervo J. J. Kenahan great to catch up with the chief market strategies for t dum are trade soon joining us on the phone from Chicago. Soon enough, sooner, than us. It sounds like we got a couple of hours to go. I'm watching you. I'm watching you get his water in tea in front of me. That's all. I have got an apple. I'm staying away from the cinnamon rolls. Thanks so much

for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, Southcloud, Bloomberg dot com, or wherever you get your podcasts. And of course you can always listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News