This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Messer and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio. Well, here's something I didn't know before reading the story from our next guest, Sarah Holder and Fulla kenneby their City Lab reporters here at Bloomberg News. America's pre trial detention system is actually a global outlier. It's set apart by an emphasis on cash bill and
the for profit infrastructure that supports it. So if you can't afford your bail, a company in the two billion dollar commercial bailbond industry will cover it for a fee. And if you don't qualify for bail bonds or can't afford them, you go to jail. You wait months or even years for a trial. Fulla and Sarah writing about the success and challenges of New York City's supervised release program and the current issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek. It's the
annual City's double issue. It's on newstands now, it's online at Bloomberg dot com, slash BusinessWeek, and it's on the Bloomberg terminal. Full is here in the studio. Sarah's on zoom in New York. Also here, the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek Joel Webber in our Bloomberg Interactive at Brokers Studio. Joel, good to have you with us. The supervised release program here in New York City. I can't really call it experimental anymore.
I didn't know about it, though, did you know about it?
I had heard of it, okay in terms of you know, when we voted for it, yeah, but or voted against it, depending on how people voted. But I didn't know about the successes and failures of it.
So one of the things as we were kind of putting together the city's issue, we really wanted to take like this, look at where cities are three plus years after the pandemic, and this idea from Fuller and Sarah I thought was a really interesting way to talk about criminal justice and this experiment that's happened in New York that I think has been worthy of more national attention than it's perhaps received. And as you mentioned, us huge
outlier in terms of incarceration numbers. What the program has shown is this interesting success already. And part of this is the burden that is put on people who are and it's until proven guilty, but they cannot be on the street unless they have money for bail, and this has really challenged that assumption and fulla talk to us about who are the instrumental people who are helping make this pilot a.
Thing, Thanks Joel, And so I guess, first of all, the jail system in the US, folks have been it's greatly expanded since the seventies, and so there are four times as many people behind bars pre trial.
On four times four times and pre trial.
Yeah, pre trial so you know, accused but not convictive of any crime than there were in the seventies. And so these systems have sprung up in jurisdictions across the US, New York having one of the most expansive ones to address this ballooning population of folks that are being held before they've been convicted. And so here in New York we have this supervised release program and so each borough has a provider, well, Brooklyn shares Brooklyn and Staten Island
share a provider. But basically the intend is to divert people from jail and keep them from having to pay bail that in many cases they can afford, and instead give them programming, give them you know, job interview, help give them access to housing, give them access to food and give them access to things that they need to ensure that they don't end up back in front of a judge or back you know, in the criminal legal system.
And so that's sort of what this program sprung up out of, and it's what it's meant to address to keep people.
Out of jail.
I note that twenty seven people have died at Rikers since the beginning of twenty twenty two.
And just so our listeners and viewers know, Rikers here in New York is a place where people are held, a pre trial place. Yes, yes, people who are waiting trial.
People who are waiting trial, most of them, I think, like ninety percent of the folks.
I want to bring Sarah into this conversation to get your insight on also the politics when it comes to letting people walk through, walk us through, as far as what the issues are there and the politics behind that.
Yeah, I mean, bail reform as a policy change has attracted a lot of attention nationwide. It's kind of the
new boogeyman. After the defund the police movement, people were talking about sort of diverting funds from police departments and reforming the practices of police now we're talking more broadly about the criminal legal system that fulla laid out for us, trying to think about new ways to hold people responsible for crimes, but also sort of understand that the current system as it is right now, lets people who have the means walk free, while others who do not have
the means, who are just as innocent before proven guilty, have to go to places like rikers. So bail reform as a national movement has been tried, and places across the US Illinois, Washington, d C. And New York City are trying to look at different ways to allow people
to await trial outside of jails like wrikers. But obviously politicians that engage and try to exert these policy changes face a lot of political tax It's a hot button issue across the left and the right, and so programs like this are kind of trying to actually set up the infrastructure in place for cities that take on this politically fraught challenge of bail reform, like what do people who are no longer eligible for bail? What do they do?
And so Supervisor releases sort of like a programming change that attacks this or addresses this more political church political issue, and Fuller can talk a little bit more about, you know, what politicians face when they do take on Bill reform.
Well, before we let him do that, let's talk about what this looks like in practic And there's a character in the story Kevin, which is a pseudonym, but let's talk about what Kevin faced and how the program affected him personally.
Yeah, so, at a basic level, when when you're arrested in New York City, you're processed, you're booked, and then eventually, usually after twenty four hours or so, you're in front of a judge. And you know, in reporting out the story, Sarah and I spent a lot of time in court watching watching these arraiements, watching this happen, right, and these hearings take You wouldn't guess five minutes no matter what
the charges are. And so at that point a judge is going to decide, well, are you going to get bail or are they going to release you and say come back to your coordinate, or are they going to give you supervised release? And so once you're diverted to a program like this, someone like Kevin is being connected with a social worker immediately and they'll have to meet. Depending on the severity of the charges, they'll have to meet a certain number of times a month. For him,
it's four times a month. And essentially it looks like a therapy session. You know, he talks to his caseworker about issues he's facing and what he's trying to do. He's looking for a job maybe, or he's looking for you know, help finding housing, and they hook him up with with services and and and so in his life, it's it's helped him. It's helped connect him with services, helped get him a job, and helped, you know, make him feel help helped him navigate the system that can be so complicated.
Even you know, one of the most interesting things I thought was reminded of is the economic toll that being in jail and not being able to afford bail actually is talk about what Kevin faced on that front.
So when he when he was standing in front of the judge waiting to hear what is his fate would be, uh, you know, uh city prosecutors that asked for a million dollars bail and that's uh, that's something he could never could never afford or could never pay. And so this program allowed for another way right, sort of a midway. Right, they don't have to let him go walk free, or they're not landing walk free, but they're also not going to make him go to Rikers, right, And so he's
able to do this programming. He's able to still go home, but he has this responsibility to come and participate in supervise release and he's been going he'do weekly for six months as his case winds the system. That's six months he would have spent in Rikers.
It's incredible that story full on its own. But Sarah, I want to bring you back in here and talk about how the city and advocates for this measure success on the larger term. How do we know if it's successful here in New York City.
Yeah, I mean it's a really interesting question. I think case workers are grappling with that as well. Like one of the biggest takeaways, like when we were at Arrangement's court, was that people were not getting sent to Rikers and they were getting sent to supervis release. And I think for caseworkers that's a measure of success. You know, are you diverting one more person away from that notorious jail.
And we saw, as you know, sometimes prosecutors would ask for a million dollars bail or we saw you know, even fifteen thousand dollars bill, something that defendants just could not pay. And we saw judges and public defenders and even prosecutors in some instances say, you know, why don't we do supervisor release instead. This person is not a flight risk. They will return to court. So we saw in real time people getting diverted from from breakers. So
that's one measure of success. Another is how many times people are showing up for court again. You know, in places like DC, we've seen you know, people release pre trial come back to court, you know, more than eighty percent of the time. And that's that's really what bill is supposed to do. It's supposed to ensure that people, you know, face their day in court and don't disappear. Supervis release is another way of making sure that people
do that, that they show back up. And then another way of thinking about this is whether people are getting re arrested while they're awaiting their day in court. You know, people out on supervised release in the city get rearrested less than ten percent of the time, less than two percent of the time for a violent felony, and you know, people are looking at those numbers and trying to understand how to get those even lower, and how to work with some folks who are recommitting violent acts or even
other offenses and giving them a lot more attention. Within this program, ky full of.
Something I'm curious about is how does the approach when it comes to the US differ than what typically is seen more internationally.
So in other jurisdictions, I mean, cashpiel is seen as a last resort. I mean the UK and Canada, and in the EU cashpio is sort of like the last last resort, and bail bondser illegal in most jurisdictions. I think it's just the US and I believe the Philippines that allow the.
US being more of an outlier.
Clearly, the US is definitely an outlier, but New York is also not totally an outlier, right, Like there is It's not like I want to get in the politics of this still, but like who else is.
Following New York's lead here? And where else? We should we be watching to see what the programs how those programs unful?
So there are quite a few jurisdictions I guess not quite a few, but there are some jurisdictions that are trying to address the same issue, right, trying to reduce jail populations. Because we have to remember that jailing people is expensive. Like for a jurisdiction, for municipality, what's the cost in New York. In New York, it's like fifteen hundred a day I think per person, And so I mean it's pricey. Yeah, it's like a you know, I think I think it's like sort of like a college
tuition or something like that. Right, Like you're talking about annually jailing people, and so there's an extreme cost for municipalities. And then on the other hand, there's an extreme cost for the folks who are going to jail. Right, You're not working, you're not paying rent, you're not you know, watching your kids, you're not doing all of these things that contribute to society as well. And so there are those costs.
Okay, So I said, we talked about the politics. Let's talk about the politics. What's the city line on this, and what about where the state comes in.
So this is a city, it's a city funded program, right, So the city he spends about sixty seven million dollars a year on this, and in the last budget cycle we saw more money set aside for this program.
Is that a lot of money or not a lot of money? More than than the pre k Wow, as we've reported before, I will be off Thursday taking my sons pre k. So holy you did the great story on pre K earlier this year about Eric Adams not providing funding to those PreK centers.
And so I guess in the grand scheme of thing. The New York City budget is one hundred and seven billion dollars, so it's not that much money, but it is for a program like this, quite a bit of it. It's quite a quite an investment.
And just keep in mind and also the economic side of this, right, like instead of paying fifteen hundred dollars per person per day, we're allowing those same people who you know might not be even violent offenders to basically like be able to be having, you know, keep their normal feeling right and be in their community. So I think it's really interesting. So what about the how does how do other jurisdictions? How is this going over elsewhere?
Right?
Because clearly we brought up to defend the police as a talking point, like this is a charged idea because it goes against some conventional, long standing wisdom.
Definitely, and I think the New York City program sort of is a great example of the challenges that programs like these fates. Right, Like, on one end, the program seems to be working and it seems like it's getting support, right, and so it's ramped up, and so they the caseworkers have a ton of cases, right, We've met some people
that have seventy cases on their plate. On the other hand, they have to worry about the politics of this, right Like New York has rolled back, New York State has rolled back it's bail reforms, I think three times at this point. Right, in other jurisdictions, we've seen campaign ads sort of demonizing bail reform LEAs out in last year ran ads right saying that he would, you know, reverse a bail laws.
And so.
The politics of this are fraud to say the least. And we see this in joysticks across the country.
Full of fantastic story, Sarah, A great story. Sarah Holders, City Lab reporter at Bloomberg News on the phone from our bureau. Full of Kennedy, City Lab reporter here at Bloomberg News with us in the Bloomberg Interactive Brokers Studio along with Joel Webber, the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek. This story and more in the City's issue, the double issue of BusinessWeek