Harvard's Frei on How Leaders Can Empower

be Uber's first Senior VP of Leadership and Strategy. She's also worked at We Were Her new book that was out this year, we talked with her about it, Unleash, the Unapologetic leaders Guide to empowering everyone around you. She joins us on the phone from Cambridge, Massachusetts. Francis, it's so great to have you back with us. How are you. Oh, I'm doing very well and this is just energy producing and Alex, it's a pleasure to meet you well. And I've got to ask you first of all, are you

gonna be back at Harvard Business School come the fall? Um, I will not be going to campus this fall. I have some faculty will We're going to have hybrid classrooms. But I'm pretty much of the When there is a vaccine, I will go back on campus. Otherwise I have a magnificent home studio. Magnificent. Alright, they're jealous, So talk to us a little bit about the leadership. I mean, I feel like there has been so much for you to kind of, um delve into right now in this environment.

You know, global leaders and how they're dealing with the pandemic. Obviously everybody kind of seems to be doing their own thing in many in many cases, Um, what are some of the leadership stories right now that you're finding interesting? Yeah? So, I I think one of the tenants of great leadership is that leadership is about others. Like and if you line up the global leaders, just use whatever metric you want on who does it feel like it's about them

versus it's about others. So I guess self distracted versus other distracted, and then also rank just how you think they're doing with the pandemic. I think there's like a crazy high correlation. Those leaders that are clearly in it for others are doing super well with the pandemic, and those leaders that are disproportionately self distracted, are really struggling with the pandemic. Um not to bring gender into it, like right now, but is there a distinction between male

and female leaders in relation to that? So I don't personally think that it's a gendered thing, but the data are pretty overwhelming that women at this moment in time tends to be more undistracted and tend to be handling the pandemic better. So you can't deny its correlation. Whether gender is a causal thing, I would need more evidence of that. So what what are other reasons why that would be the case. I think it's because it's right now. You know, it's like small samples, like how many people

we have right now. And the reason the reason I hesitate is that, you know, I look at fas Medela at Microsoft, and he's like one of the most other focused people on the planet, So he could be an outlier. I see great leaders of both genders, and I see overly self distracted leaders of both genders. For world leaders today,

there's no question about the correlation. But again, it's just it's too hard for me to think that it's gender is just so much more fluid than we have thought historically as well, I just have a hard time concluding it, but I will. I'll leave it up to others to do their research on him. It's a great point. Hey, One thing I want to ask you. You shared with us some talking points, and one thing you are stressing is building a foundation of trust that people become willing

to be led. It's interesting we caught up with our Andy Brown of Bloomberg New Economy and earlier talked about you know, leaders are kind of, you know, potentially in a position right now where citizens are counting on them to get them through the virus, and as a result, may be willing to give up a lot in order for those leaders to do that. And that includes things like civil liberties, and I just think about testing and tracing and all the things that we might need to

give up in order to get through this virus. And so what's the balance between you know, building up that trust that people can be led to also making sure that you don't take advantage of those people. Well, I think that's also where the other distracted versus self distracted. So it's you know, a benevolent dictator is often what people like until they think of the successor, right, and then it's like where it falls down. So it's it's

like great in the known hands. Like if I was in New Zealand, would I give up some of my civil liberties? I would because I totally trust the leadership there. Um, But what I do it in other places? No, because I don't trust the leadership. So I think if you have a foundation of test, people will be more likely to give up civil liberties. That's I think where the causal part is. We have like thirty seconds left for

this portion of it. But um, if that comes with fines, like if the leadership said you have to do this or if you don't, you have to pay ten grand, where does that fall into the leadership scale? Great question? I think that will I think that will um lose trust because you're essentially saying the rich don't have to do it. I see, because then you're basically willing to not do it because you don't care about the money. Right, buy your way out. That's unequal. It's pen that angle.

That's kind of like we go back to the Varsity Blues a little bit, right, and and Becky, I want to understand a little bit more about those that sort of lead because they're successful themselves. Versus want to help others be successful. I feel like I've been in the corporate world for a very long time and I have seen people who only care about themselves get consisted certantly ahead.

When is it kind of like you know, karma up here like that, I want a T shirt Karma u uh So here's what I'll say is that one of the problems is that great individual contributors usually have a low ceiling in most organizations, and I think that's problematic, Like we should be able to have people that are individual contributors also aspire and move up an organization and not have to put them into a place of management

that they're ill equipped to do. But most organizations the only way for you to rise is to become a manager, and so ambitious individual contributors shift over there. So I think we can fix some of that structurally. And then the other thing is that management is a skill that

can be taught. I'm saying that almost school, the Harvard Business School, so I believe it very much, But particularly in tech companies, where you know, people go there for their first job, didn't come out of a business school curriculum. They haven't been taught it. It's not that hard to teach it, and it's not that hard to learn it,

but it does need to be taught. So I do wonder right now we're at this interesting time, Francis where I feel like UM management structures are being taxed on so many different levels, right, dealing with the virus, dealing with you know, a lousy economy, UM, also trying to up diversity issues in light of what happened with George Floyd and others, the tragic death of UM, and trying to create equalities. And I do wonder, you know, women have made progress, but there's a long way to go.

I do wonder how it all looks as there are so many different stresses on the system. Do we get any better on any of this? Well, Fortunately, as we get better with diversity and inclusion, we will get better at all of the other performance. So the solutions of fellow the problems is in is in the solution to others. So when we have more diverse perspectives, we will be more creative, more rigorous, more innovative, and that will then

help with solve the other problems. So I think the most urgent challenge organizations have today is to be more inclusive of diverse perspective and diverse experiences. But is it different. Do you think it's different from a year ago, two years ago? Do you think there is really something different? I do for two two reasons. One is, we all saw the murder of George Floyd and several other people up to that, but that one in particular like happened

in a consciousness. I don't know if we were all home at the same time and we were all watching it. And when I look at the people that are speaking out about it, it's not it's everyone speaking out on behalf of the need for under represented to stop being underrepresented. And so it feels different to me, and in my interactions with company, it sure does feel like a very

palpable thing. But good news is that the moral imperative lines up with the business imperative here, diverse perspectives will make you much better. It's also the right thing to do. But again, that's another thing that we've been talking about for years, and I feel like it's still taking a long time right, which kind of leads to my next question is um I've seen it through my friends, work, through you know, my career, my lifespan. UM is that people can be very good at managing up but very

bad at managing down. So you may be able to do really well giving lip service to those kind of things to like your superior, your superior superiors, but actually execution, UM, I'm managing down is very different. Um, how do we bridge that gap? Yeah? So if there are demographic tendencies associated with some thrives on my team, I should be held accountable for it. There's no amount of chatter that I give to anyone that should overcome that performance school card.

But what if it does? What do you do? Then? I invest in their competitors? Oh, okay, money, right, like you you won't fright. So So in addition to that, if you talk more about uh, the inclusion, how do you take a group and set the tone, Like if you were going into the job for the first air you were advising you know the c you have a company, and say, all right, this is your meeting. This is how you set the tone. These are the this is

like the three things you need to do. Go. So the first thing is that, um, I would look, are there demographic tendencies associated with how people are achieving and their sentiments? So my prep for the meeting is you know, it's a whole organization women, but there's only five percent women at the time. Then there's a demographic tendency. Are we overloaded with black people at the bottom of an organization and Latin next the middle and only white people

at the top. And then I would double click on why and I can narrow it down for everyone. There's only four reasons. It's either hiring, development, promotion, or retention. It's so it's super solvable, right, I mean, you just look at the numbers, right, like, if you really do the breakdown, it's going to be a very clear picture of what's happening in your company. And then right, you have to get then into the reasons why we were

the four things again, say it again for me. Hiring, development, promotion, retention, Okay, interesting, I think she's starting a firm Francis and not quite sure. No, I'm too tired for that, but I'm just really fascinating. Developing can get left behind because you can fill a quota, but you have to develop it too, and I think that's where we wind up losing, say a lot of women for example. That's why you get people you know in the pipeline early on, right, but to lose them

along the way in terms of the higher positions. Francis, you're always thought provoking. I knew Alex would love you. Oh my god, I'm like, can we talk to her more? We will bring her back, We will bring her back. Um, Francis, thank you so much. Great to check in with you. Francis Fry, Professor of Technology and Operations Management over at Harvard Business School. Check out her book Unleashed, The Unapologetic Leader's Guide to Empowering Everyone around You. It came out

this year, right. It's about you know, you have to be comfortable, I think, as a leader to be to empower others.