Gavet on Need for Business Leaders to Empathize

empathetic tech, former CEO at Compass. Uh. Settle into a comfy chair as we welcome my elgove A. She is here to talk about the world of technology. Her book just out Trampled by Unicorns, Big text empathy problem and really how to fix it? I added the really, Uh it's such a relevant topic, and she joins us on the phone in New York City. Um My yell, thank you, so delighted to have you here with Jason and myself. Welcome,

my pleasure high Carol, Hi, Jason. So we're trying to figure out where to stop start because there's so much going on in humanity, humanity as it relates to technology. Maybe let's start with why did you want to write this book? What were you hoping, you know, to get out there to the masses. What kind of conversation did you want to get going. I really wanted to have

to really big conversation. I want to want to have a conversation about where we are right now, because I felt like a lot of what I was reading in the media or in books was extremely one sided. It was usually UM saying either tech is amazing or tech

is horrible. And I was reading all of that and saying, no, there's some good, there's some bad, and there's some ugly, and I'd like us to have a really exhausted view on where do we stand, what are the good things that happened, and what are the things we need to fix, and really try to go to the core of why we have a deficit of empathy in the technical system. And then once we uh we align on how we got where we are and why UM and and and why we are where we are, then I wanted to

really focus some solutions. I'm a I'm a solution oriented person. I'm very optimistic in general, and I wanted to have a conversation about what we can do and we being a very broad we like we the tech executive tech employees that the group I belonged to, I mean worked

in tex for fifteen years. But we as also as users, we as investors, we as governments and regulators, and I thought that there was a role for every one of us to play in really making tech UM an instrument to advance humanity even more than it has been so far. So let's talk about the deficit if we can have the starting point, Because you know what you point out in this book, we have all really seen I feel like, come to the fore in a troubling way, especially over

the past few years. Even before I think we entered into this broader social and societal reckoning around inequality, we knew there was a problem in tech. How do we get here? Well, that's a big question. UM. I think that we got here through a complex set of um of things related to tech. I think tech is very insular from a cultural perspective, was very strong tribal myaths. I talked in my book about many of them. One

of them is what I call the Steve job syndrome. Uh, this idea that to be a genius you somehow have to be a jerk. Like the two are kind of really related. UH. This idea that technology is neutral, UM, the myaths of perfect meritocracy, Like if you raised throughout the ranks of technology, it's because you're that good at your job, and the your n this is because you're

not that good at your job. And so that really created an industry which in many aspects is very closed UM and had a hard time because of a lack of diversity, has a hard time to be empathetic to the rest of the world. And when you're not empathetic, it becomes hard for you to really understand the impact that you're having on the world. So that's one very strong,

very strong issue. The second one I've just mentioned it is the lack of diversity, women represent less and assertive management UH and tech roles in big tech UH and racial minorities in general less than ten percent of management UH and way less than ten percent in text so tech tech jobs. And then I think the last one is UM what I would call a lack of accountability UM.

And it's because we we as as tech people, we believe so strongly that we were on our path on the past to change the world that if there were some bumps on the road, if there were some mistake made, it didn't really matter because we were working towards the greater good. And I think because of that, and then also the fact that the regulator didn't always understand what it is that we we're doing, and I think the users got really amazed by all the free services that

they get that that they got. I think the combination of all of that created this environment where UH tech companies could pretty much do anything they wanted without having to really be accountable. And that's obviously changing now. But I think if you combine this cultural installarity, the lack of diversity, and the lack of accountability, you end up where we are right now. So somebody like we've got about a minute or so left and then we've got to do some news. We're gonna come back and talk

some more. UM my help. But so somebody like a Mark Zuckerberg good bad? How do you see him? Um? I think every person has some good and some bad. I think it's clearly a business business genius, and it's really strong at building a one in a lifetime company. I think, to use the wording that one of my previous company, dcg UH used, there may be some areas for improvements around empathy in connection to people. Yeah. My, I have to tell you the cover is phenomenal. It's

so striking and uh, really attention grabbing. So congratulations on that as well. So let's talk solutions. Uh, what's the first step here? What's the easy, low hanging fruit to try and be more empathetic when it comes to big tech? So, given your audience, I want to start by saying, I'm a capitalist at hard I'm not advocating for empathy just because it's all going to make us feel good. I'm advocating for empathy because I believe it's good for business.

And in my book I talk about a research or study that was done that demonstrated that empathetic company conscious companies outperformed the SMP five index by a factor of ten. So it is actually really good for business. Uh. Now, what can't be done? A lot of things can be done. It can be done by the leaders inside the company.

Like at Microsoft. I think it's been an unbelievable an unbelievable model role model for what can't be done in terms of putting empathy and basically people caring for people

in everything you do. Starting with the mission, the vision, the values, of the company, and then continuing with things like how do you recruit more empathetic people, how do you make sure that you give them a voice, how to use change your processes, your decision processes so that the impact that you're having not just on your immediate customers but also on the world around you are actually taken into account. So there's a ton of things that can be done. No silver Bulleitz, but like a pretty

long list. Um. And then it goes outside the leadership team or the employees. He goes to the boards and the investors, the public market, the net back in the New York stock stock extras have a huge impact on the way companies are being are being run. And then it goes all the way to the regulator, the media, the consumer. And so my book just basically go chapter chapter by chapters for every one of these takeholders and just say, hey, here is ten twenty fifty things that

you could potentially try to do. Can every tech company be run this way, have empathy and be successful? That is an extremely smart question. I believe that they all should do it that way. I think that for some of them it's going to be a massive challenge because of the culture they have inside and what it would mean in terms of changing their business model and the way they make money. I do believe though, and again

I I I a quoted that that study. I do believe that in the long term, if you want to build a profitable, sustainable business that is going to be still around not five years from non o ten years from now, but like a hundred years from now, it's just you have to It would be completely insane as a business leader to not make sure that you care about the impact that you have on on the world.

But do you know what I'm saying right Like? You just do wonder, Like I I think Jason and I would you know, handily agree with you that this is the way to do things. And I think younger employed ease care about this a lot more. But I just do wonder. I think it's going to be really hard. Look, I mean the very honest sensory. I think among big tech there as there are some companies for which is

going to be painful but possible. I think there are some companies for which is going to be incredibly difficult, and they may not just have the resistance to pain and the will to make that happen, which by the way, means that they may actually be forced in one way or another again, either by the users, the advertisers, which also are very powerful, or at the end of the day, the regulators. And I advocated in my book that I'd much rather for the industry to self regulate. I don't.

I live in in Russia and in China. I know first time what it is to have an overbearing government. I definitely do not want that. But at the same time, staff regulation has never worked in any industry, and so the challenge these days is really about finding the right balance. And I think we'll go faster to that finding that right balance if big tech actually texts accountability and really

really start thinking about how to put humanity front and center. Well, and my l and you know better than we do that tech, especially here certainly over the last ten twenty years, has really set the tone for so many types of companies, even beyond the text fear. I mean, we all look to Silicon Valley and its ideals in many ways for inspiration. Totally sorry, I mean there's been a transformative driver of

the world in general. So and again to start to go back to what I was saying at the beginning for good, for bet and ugly, I think we shouldn't completely discount the fact that they have actually really really helped millions, ignal hundreds of millions of people in many aspects of their life. So that's very positive. What what I want is to make sure that it's continues that way and all the negative impact that is being surfaced more and more is actually taken I mean taken under control. Again.

Can I just ask you real quickly and something, Jason, I've talked a lot about TikTok I just got about a minute or so left. I mean, the pushback against the US is that a good thing? Does that make sense? Does should we? Should the US be taking a stand on companies like this? So my general view is that the rule of government is to give um, to give guidelines, and not so much to be involving a very specific deals.

I think TikTok is is just at the beginning that death hasn't really settled, so it's hard to have a definitive view on the final impact. I would I would be very cautious, as I say, in having government going to give into business into business deals, because governments at least in the West don't really have a good track record kind of thing, and it's something we're critical about

other governments where you're so involved. Yeah, exactly as you say that your experience in China and Russia has taught you that better than anything. Alright, my elegravate, Thank you so much. Congratulations. It is your launch day for this book, Trampled by Unicorns, big text empathy problem and how to fix it. I think it's so telling that a book is out here in that has the word empathy in it. I mean, like, not productivity, not managing your time better,

not success, but empathy. I think that's very notable. Yeah, I have I have not heard that right in all the discussions that we have. It's a very different way of thinking about it, but an important when we hear about culture a lot, but empathy is a whole different level. And you're right, Jason, very very important.