Developing a Coronavirus Antibody Test

on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show weekdays at two pm Eastern only on Bloomberg Radio. As we said, a blockbuster show ahead, let's kick it off. Stanley Bergman with us, the chairman and the CEO of Henry Shine, joining us on the phone from New York, right in the thick of it, and really with something that could be a game changer. It's fair to say, Carol Stanley, thank you so much for joining us. Sure, thank you so help us understand

what you're working on, because it involves antibodies. As I understand it, what does that mean as we fight COVID nineteen. So, Henry Shine is the largest provider of products to what we call office space health care practitioners, that's dentists and physicians outside of the acute care setting, in the private setting, and in that context, we have for years been focused on what's called points of care rapid tests. These are tests like the flu vaccine or even a pregnancy test

that is conducted in the doctor's office. And so we started looking about six weeks ago around the world for what's called points of care rapid tests for the coronavirus, and uh that would just uh give you a little thought, and that is that testing for the coronavirus is not like a pregnancy test. It's not yes or no. There are three kinds of tests that need to be used in unison to diagnose a particular patient. And the first

is what's called a PCR test. This is a molecular test that is really good to diagnose a patient in the first two days, the first seven days or so. The second is what's called an antigen test, which is early diagnosis somewhere to mid stage diagnosis between five and ten days. And the third is the antibody which is a blood test which is good to determine if you had had the virus or not. Have to really be administered by somebody in the physician's office, or it could

even be a paramidt but interpreted by a physician. I'm not a physician, I'm not a public health person. I'm giving you a summary of what tess happened, but what could happen and these need to be reviewed, an understanding of the patient, of symptoms, the history, and other and other kinds of a test that have been done. These antibody tests are available pretty soon and we'll be able to help patients understand where they've had the disease or Stanley.

I'm going to jump in only just because we have about four minutes left. I think what the work you folks are doing, we think it's really important that people have an understanding of it because it could potentially help us get people back to work sooner. It's about the presence of finding out if if the presence of antibiodies are there, and it means a person might be immune from getting the virus in the in the future, so that's that's key. Though we still don't know that about

this virus. Is that correct? Yes, it doesn't mean you will never get it to game. I think these tests have a little bit misunderstood in the sense that they sound very simple. You need to go through and understand what I just said and then speak to your physician.

But clearly, these antibody tests, the blood tests, of sourology tests prick no equipment needed, available in fifteen minutes, are very very helpful in bringing America back to work and particularly testing the frontline healthcare providers and for example e MPT at police people. But are they accurate in that if they show there's a presence of antibodies, that there is no chance of a person getting the coronavirus. Again, well, first of all, mone these tests are hundred percent accurate.

Nor is the PCR test or any of these This is where in the early stage of diagnosing the disease. Uh uh, and so none of these tests a hundred percent foolproof. Having said that, these tests worked working together can help the physician make decisions of whether somebody can go back to work or not. These are not tests that are fool proof. Unfortunately, don't have any that are foolproof yet. And so how quickly does this get out and in what sort of volume? Stanley, Well, we expect

to have product production available. We have at the moment to one being a Korean supplier and the other one being b D from the United States, and we're betting Dickinson and we respect to have these products available in the next week or so, in hundreds of thousands and then likely in moments. And how they be distributed. You're working with the administration to get this done. What's the

process to get them out there? No, these tests will be available to physicians and to hospitals and they can be bought from Henry Shine to our normal medical channel. Uh. At the moment, I think the demand is more for the PC artists, which has been around for a while and known, and gradually I think the knowledge about emptibody prology blood tests will become known and the product will become more and more sought after. But at the moment, of course, we have not shipped any yet, but we're

taking orders and we will deliver tests two. Primarily we will focus on hospitals or tooth care and physician officers. We're talking with Stanley Bergman, the chairman and cy of Henry Shine. So Stanley, as you know, the key thing with antibioties is that they tell us how many people were infected. That is the number who have recovered or produced antibodies suggesting that they have fought off the virus.

So I'm curious if you have any idea any results that have come back so far that gives you an idea of what proportion of the population is turning up antibody positive. Yeah. Unfortunately these tests are relatively used. Testing patterns are not well known, but the TISTS has been used one in Korea and one in China with pretty good results. But of course we have no studies yet of any scale. In the United States, studies are being conducted and the public, many of them are studying this

particular tests and how to use it. But we're dealing with technology that's brand needs in the United States. And part of the reason only yet about thirty seconds left here, Stanley, is we need to know whether this is seasonal ultimately, whether we're going to be living with this for quite

some time. So we need to know whether people are are essentially, if not immune, at least have had it and are building up those Anybody's right, ye, us what we need these tests to help us to determine patents, and we can use these tests to help us determine what's the patson UH of impact on society in general, and these will be very very helpful. We expect them to be very very helpful to public help officials as

they diagnosed, will determine where the trends are heading. Right. Well, you're definitely doing really important work and we look forward to hearing more, especially as you start shipping out more those tests and the results are coming coming back. Stanley Bergman, thank you, Thank you, Chairman and Chief executive officer at Henry Shine. Joining us on the phone in New York City. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason

Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. We know it is just a fact, Carol, that retail, shopping, restaurants, all of it just absolutely getting obliterated. Uh here, Fortunate for us we have someone to help understand, help us understand this. Tom mcgheek, President and CEO of International Council of Shopping Centers, joining us on the phone from New Jersey. Tom, I know it's a very busy time for you. We really appreciate you spending some time with Carolin myself. Thanks for having me on. Happy to

be here. So I want to jump right in and ask you about something that came up in a conversation we had yesterday with none other than Danielle Blue, talking well known restaurateur obviously talking about this notion of business interruption coverage. It is something he is fighting for. I know it's something you are intensely uh focused on as well. Where are we on that as it relates to what the government may or may not do? Yeah, well, uh, we are focused on that issue. I mean we are

in the midst of a national crisis. I mean, effectively the US economy is shut down. We are part of a broad coalition that has advanced the solution for the government to hopefully serve as the framework for the next COVID relief package that will come out, and there will necessarily net out of necessity, be another package. While the CARES Act was was a good first step, it was

really just a first step. And the coalition that we're a part of and actively involved in, believes the government should put together a Business Continuity and Recovery Fund fully funded by the US government UH to fundamentally backstop losses that are taking place during this national crisis. And we um we believe that the only entity that has a balance sheet big enough to sustain the kind of losses that are taking place right now is the US government,

and so we're hopeful. Um, you know, conversations are ongoing. Obviously, Congress is not in session right now, so nothing will happen until they come back into session. But we are advancing that, and the coalition as broad and includes participants from the assurance industry to folks like ourselves, to folks in the retail and restaurant industry and everything in between. Is tough. Yeah, let me just jump in for a second. So small retail businesses I'm assuming are covered under the

bailout for small businesses, correct. I mean, I think there's some three billion that came out of that massive stimulus. So I'm assuming you're not talking about those kinds of retail. You're talking about the bigger names, right and the publicly held names. I'm talking about virtually companies of every size and scale in every industry. You're correct. In the Cares

Act there was a provision to help small business. But but honestly, I mean, the scale of that, while historic in nature, two trillion dollars to spend is not all that significant given the scale of what's taking place right now, and I think that that Small Business UM package, although well intentioned, will not be sufficient for what's taking place.

And as I said, it is really just the first step, right, and we do expect there to be a phase four, phase five and probably you know, help on the other side once we get out of the virus and help me out here, because I think, you know, our listeners are going to be asking this question, what do you do with retailers that came into this in a pretty weakened state, whether it's a Macy's that has been having a tough time for years, I mean, why should they

get some assistance? Well, first and foremost, you know, I think that this is not like any other crisis that we've had in the past economic crisis. This isn't about businesses that did or did not make wise business decisions. What's fundamentally happened is that the government, and for it are all right reasons for the right public health and safety actions, has basically placed the economy and time out UM. And I think there's a responsibility if you make that

decision then to support the business community. Uh. And nobody is looking to to do anything inappropriate here. There should be appropriate safeguards in place and a lot of provisions, etcetera. But I think the losses that take place in this period of time that particularly you know, are impacting employment. And think that's the one really important, uh particular in

this is that companies are going to get assistance. There should be some requirements around maintaining employment, and that is what we are proposing as part of the recovery fund. But if the government needs to step in, these are not This is not the consequence of a decision that a business man. This is the consequence of a national disaster that's taking place, and the government, in all natural disasters, to step right. And I would say the same thing

for a Boeing. So forgive me, I'm playing a little bit Devil's advocate, but you know, these are the responses we're certainly hearing, you know, Jason from some of our listeners. Well, and Tom, I guess, you know, sort of further to that point, and maybe looking ahead a little bit, given what Carol rightly set up as the state of the retail business, and now given this exogenous, unforeseen event, what does the shopping center business look like on the other side?

Is it certain types of businesses that survive and thrive going forward, regardless of what sort of funding comes in. I don't know that we really know what the future is going to foretell because we don't really know how long this crisis is going to last. Right, I do know that the consequences of this industry not surviving or being in significant despair are quite bad for the U. S economy. Went out of four jobs in America. Retail related every community as retail is a thriving, central part

of the community life. It relies upon the tax revenue that comes from retail, whether it's sales tax and property tax revenue. So if you're going to save the US economy, you need to save retail. If you're going to have thriving communities that don't have foreclosed properties and empty storefronts, the government needs to lean in. I think that the issue is very significant and and broad based. It's not

just the Business Recovery Fund that I've talked about. There's a trillion dollars of scar and non secured debt that underlies the shopping center industry in of itself. And if and this is an industry that depends up on cash flow, cash flow from retailers to pay property owners would pay right. It's also a real estate story, which is an important

part of also um this economy, so it's all connected. Tommagy, thank you so much, Presidency of the International Council of Shopping Centers joining us on the phone from New Jersey. Really important to check in with the retail sector. Also, Babby beaten because of the virus. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg Radio. We know global cases of the virus now topping nine hundred sixty five thousand, more than forty nine thousand dead.

This is according to Johns Hopkins. Nations with mandatory TV vaccines are showing fewer virus deaths, and meantime, l A is urging its city to mascot ball New York, New Jersey deaths are doubling in three days. There's your snapshot. Let's talk about a little bit more about the virus and really what we can do from a humanitarian um response. Dr Paul Siegel is Directors Center for Humanity Terran Health

at Johns Hopkins University Bloomberg School of Public Health. Of course, the Bloomberg School of Public Health, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg founder, Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Radio, which you're listening to right now. Dr Spiegel on the phone from Baltimore. Dr Spiegel, nice to have you here with us. Um talked to us a little bit about this humanitarian response.

I want to ask you a couple of things. But I do think we are looking around the world and I am concerned too about some spots, whether it's in the emerging economies that are going to have a tougher time getting this under control, especially while the rest of the developed world is just struggling to get control of

the virus on their own. Yes, absolutely, And most refugees and internally displaced people around the world are living in such areas of low and middle league countries, and there's a big concern that one, how are these countries going to respond? And then secondly, how are they going to respond to non nationals such as refuge gees. Are these groups going to add access to national health systems when

they're going to be overwhelmed for their own nationals? And so Dr speak on I mean, one of the things we we want to understand it when it comes to the spread. And Carol was saying, this is we were sort of getting ready to talk to you, is we're hearing more and more about testing and antibodies and all of these things that will help us get to the other side of this. I would imagine that in part is really going to potentially exacerbate, uh, some of the

divergences here, especially on a humanitarian front. Correct, well, if you're referring to where testing will occur, I think so certainly. I mean, one of one of the concerns is that as we are and we need to ramp up our testing significantly for the virus, but also, as you mentioned, for antibodies, because those that now have had the virus um and have immunity, hopefully we'll be able to go

back to work and get the economy moving. Many of these countries will not have access to those same tests, and even more so in many of these refugee settings. When you look at refugee camps, many of them are in remote areas. The density of these places are are very very high, and they won't have access Some have access to basic health care, but certainly not to I

c U s and two ventilators. So there's a lot of concern about how the spread will occur in those populations and the lack of testing and lack of care right, because in order for us to get this under control, I mean, this is where we really do need coordinated efforts across borders and across countries. I mean that that's the only way we're going to get this under control. UM ultimately correct. Yes, And you know, we were just

talking about this. I was teaching a class of minute ago, and we were talking about this issue of the importance of working altogether yet public health and and also public health and human rights and what we are seeing. At least in the past, we were taught we should not really be or we should not be quarantining, because when you looked at HIV and you looked at EOLA, when you quarantine people and either forced them to get tests,

people go underground and move. But this is a different virus with a different epidemiology, and so much of the world is quarantining, isolating, social distancing UM to try to slow this virus down, particularly when there is no treatment

and when there is no vaccination. So that may be correct to be able to do that, but it also may have some significant long term effects well beyond just icon right and you talk about cultural and ethical issues within communities, right, maybe you know that isn't something we feel so much here in the New York metro area. Just got about thirty seconds. But certainly in some of the emerging world you have elderly with you know, younger populations.

It's just the way it is, just quickly, yeah, exactly. So we we just are releasing the study looking at the rhino refugees in Bangladesh and um these populations are multi generational and try to socially isolate the elderly will be an extreme challenge. All right, well, thank you so much. This is an interesting perspective on what is a fast evolving crisis for sure, and we know, uh for sure that it is also global and indiscriminate in a lot

of ways. Dr Paul Spiegel is director of the Center for Humanitarian Health at Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health. And you can tell by the name probably that school is supported by Mike Bloomberg, the founder Bloombergil Bloomberg Philanthropies and the parent of this radio station. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly on Bloomberg

Radio well as we know. The devil is often in the details, and that includes and policing the massive two trillion dollar stimulus plan that President Trump signed into law just last week. Writing about at is Josh Green, national correspondent EP Bloomberg Business Week. He joins us on the phone from Washington, d C. Also with us is Joe Weber,

Bloomberg Business Week editor on the phone from Brooklyn. And Joe, I feel like this is stimulus bailout two point oh, and I just keep thinking about the financial crisis and oversight or black thereof Yeah, it's hard, it's hard not to. And that's when um, you know, Josh raised his hand about this idea, um to to actually go back and talk to the people who had oversight um the last time there was um a stimulus like this, And he did and and so doing also found out that we

were reminded that um it really didn't have much teeth. Um, Josh, who do you talk to? And one they have to say, well, I talked to most of the people who were on the original five member TARP oversight commission. They of course famously included Elizabeth Warren, but also people like Damon Silver's from the A F. L c i oh from Republican

Senator Judd Gregg. The one thing they all agreed on was that all the attention and that panel got last time around, we all remember the hearings, the congressional hearings where Elizabeth Warren was badgering Tim Guiten and stuff like that, they didn't have much actual tangible power. What Silver's told me was that at the end of the day, all

they really had was the power of public shaming. And so there was a lot of hope this time around from Democrats that the panel, the new panel that the stimulus legislation establishes, would have more significant powers, particularly the form of subpoena power, but Republicans blocked that, And so we're going to run another example, essentially have the same panel with the same rules that we did twelve years ago.

I hope that it can do a better job. Well, And Josh, I do wonder and and you do a nice job of this in your story as well as always of reminding us that, I mean, we're living in a very different world, right, I Mean, obviously this is a different sort of crisis, but politically it's a different world. To what impact does that have you think on how this all plays out, well, I think it's gonna have

a huge impact. I mean, first of all, if you go back to the financial crisis, when the first Bailout Oversight Committee was established, Um, that was done under the Obama administration or they were, they were the ones in

tower most of the time. And you know, we're more or less compliant and willing to send officials to testify, willing to turn over documents sometimes took a little bit of teeth pulling, but but essentially they believe in the congressional process and and voluntarily sent their people in their documents in order for the overseers to examine what was happening with the money. What we've seen from the Trump administration is a much much different and more hostile stance

toward Congress. Uh, not only when it comes to stimulus and that sort of thing, but really on any kind of congressional oversight. You go back to the Mueller probe, you can go back to the impeachment stuff, and it isn't just turned down requests for information from Congress, but fighting subpoenas. And so the concern I heard from a lot of people was that if you if you institute a system that is essentially voluntary, and that's what this

new oversight board is going to be. It it requires a willingness on the part of the administration to go along with it, and everything we have seen suggests that that's not going to happen, including within hours after Trump signing off on the stimulus bill, he issued what's known as a signing statement saying that he did not recognize the authority of the Special Inspector General it's supposed to be overseeing the stimulus uh, and that the government wouldn't

release any information, wouldn't allow the Special Inspector General to release any information unless the President had signed off on it first. And as we know, um, Trump doesn't really enjoy scrutiny from time. Well, that's what's wild in your store you set upon signing the bill, he immediately the President moved a curb the power of this Special Inspector General. Um. So immediately the power of it was restrained. Correct, Yes

it was. And and that's something that a lot of Democrats were worried about, because what you have here and what I focused on was the five hund billion dollar bailout funds gonna go to large corporations. Is that the Treasury Secretary, Stephen the Nuchon, has an enormous amount of latitude as far as where he wants to direct this money. Democrats are afraid it's going to go to Trump friendly companies, even even companies that might be owned part by his children.

There may be all sorts of shenanigans, And if they don't have subpoena power, and if they don't have an inspector general to be able to follow the money, that essentially it will turn into a program of favoritism and not one that directs the money to the corporations that most need help right now in the midst of this recession. Well go ahead, John, Yeah, But just to be fair here too, and Josh points this out in his story, it wasn't like the Obama administration were innocent in this

regard either. Perhaps Trump is going to another level here by by um by restricting some of of potential here. But the you know, the people that Josh talked to all since of the administration weren't angels either, right, And in fact, I think one of one of the economists I talked to who was on the panel said, in fact, I'm quoting from my own p series said getting the Obama administration to turn over documents was like pulling teeth.

We got pushed back all the time. So this isn't an easy process, the oversight process, even in the best of times. And obviously that's that's what times. Last time we got Elizabeth Warren actually out of all of this, uh, you know, and and you were right to point down out and this time, who might we get How do these how do these panelts get to get selected? Well,

that's a great question. What the legislation said last time and this time is that each of the congressional leaders, Speaker of the House, Minority leaders, Speaker of the Senate minority leader there gets to choose one, and then the fifth and final person will be chosen jointly by Nancy Pelosi and Mitch McConnell. The fear that a lot of people had, including former participants that I talked to, was

that the process would become politicized. Some of the people in the panel didn't like the fact that Warren was this crusading liberal holding banks to account. I think the success of the committee will depend a great deal on who actually winds up being appointed to it and whether or not they can get along, because if they can't, then there really is no hope of having effective oversight over this Dale album. Well, and Joel, I also think about the idea. And you guys have done such a

great job in the magazine covering this. This isn't about you know, sort of propping up a few banks or you know, getting some money to Wall Street and financial institutions. These are this is companies across the country, across all sorts of industries. This is a big complicated job, right. Oh, and that's why the you know, the size of this plot that josh Um is writing about. You know, the five billion that basically falls under Minutian's control is going

to be such an important part of this. And you know, the Small Business Association and those loans will start to probably you know, people who start applying for those tomorrow. Like, all of this will will lead to places that, um, you know, accountability and oversight are going to be dramatically important and we're just at the beginning of that. How that will all unfold. Well, and it's such a good point considering we just talked to the President UH and

CEO of the International Council of shopping centers. They too, are looking for assistance for all of the big retail names. So you know that this pot could potentially grow um larger and larger. Jill Webber, thank you so much, editor of Bloomberg Business Week, joining us from Brooklyn. Josh Green, national correspondent at Bloomberg Business Week, on the phone from Washington, d C. Broom Morow the Journal. Yeah, but you let me drive? Oh no, no, no, please, I'll do the

right I want to drive. Just drive, good question. Try this is the drive to the globe. Thanks. We'll drying us down Bloomberg Radio. It is time for the drive to the close back with us. As Eric Clark, portfolio manager at Rational Dynamic Brands fun his Rational Dynamic Brands fund. Yeah, it's down for the year, but it's still beating just about all of its peers this year and in the past year, as well as over the past three years. It's up on average more than six percent annually. Eric

joining us on the phone from San Francisco. Eric, nice to have you here with us. First of all, how San Francisco, how are you doing doing? Okay? Actually I'm down in San Diego where it's warm and uh that's

a good thing right now. So we're just hunkering down as most people are, and you know we're we're we love to adapt as human beings, and so what do you see and from a response perspective there across California, we've been hearing a lot from Governor new So we've been playing some of that that he's been saying on his show. Obviously an incredibly diverse state. Economically, it's something like the second seventh, i should say, biggest economy in

the world overall. What's the sort of net economic effect is You can see it just as a business person and as well as a consumer. Well you know, listen, it's clear small business is any you know, kind of

in trouble. Short term the when when you shut an economy down, a twenty trillion dollar economy down, there are going to be some uh you know, some short term effects, some lasting effects depending on people's balance sheets, and you know, it does allow a cleansing of bad ideas that we're just there for the bull market in the economy and

and and bad ideas. So you know, it's it's just uh, you know, it's just one of those things that that that happens at the end of the cycle when we clean out the good and or the bad and and then you know, the good ultimately takes more. Markets here are coming out the other end. So Eric talked to us about your portfolio. You know, we often get into names with you Amazon's, They're Microsoft's there, Ali baba. I mean you go after you know, as the as the

fun is entitled dynamic brands. What have you done differently? I mean, have you done some buying as the market has been beaten up and some of these names became a lot less expensive than they were prior to the outbreak of the virus. Absolutely. I mean, you know, we have always been tactical in our nature, and so you know, I'm not a buy and hold type in general, but particularly this kind of market, you have to be a

little bit tactical. Um and so when the market, you know, just plunges, you have to do, you know, go to your research and identify which brands you think are a sustainable in the short term, but also we're going to come out the other end even stronger. And those are the names that we've really focused on, which is why you have Amazon being the biggest holding by far. You know, We've ordered a much more Amazon than we have before,

and we ordered Amazon a lot to begin with. And I suspect a lot of people are doing the same when when they're having to stay home. So we've been tactical around the core. So that means you've been buying, You've been adding to the Amazon position. Absolutely, absolutely, we've

we've we bought about two points lower. You know, we have been kind of you know, trim the top end of the range in the market and add to the bottom of the range, all while the core portfolio kind of does what it does, just being tactical around the core, trying to add a little out for there. And so Eric talk about you know, how you invest looking to the bounce back. We all know it's going to come

in some former fashion at some point. The when is obviously the game, but how do you look at those names? And again, these are brands I'm guessing that we've talked about before on this program that stand to benefit when people are as it were sort of unleashed again. Yeah, absolutely. I mean, for at first, it's who has the quality balance sheet to be able to sustain a slowdown for a period of time, And you know, for for the most part, we've kind of gotten rid of those names.

There are a few that I still think I have some asymmetric opportunity, so I'm willing to hold on. But you know those names that we really like from a pent up energy. You know, consumers were social and we like to spend, and when you take both of those things away, there is this pent up energy that builds and at some point I liken it to a glass jar. As soon as you start turning the jar and take off the top of that jar, there's going to be a lot of energy released. And at that point, those

are the names you're gonna want to return to. What have I not been able to do that? I just love to do. I want my latte at Starbucks and I want to I've been exercising more so Nike comes

to mind for sure. Well, what's interesting too, There was a report app by Mofatt Nathanson today talked about Visa and master Card and said that um the downside from COVID nineteen now looks worse than previously expected, and that updates from both offered quote sobering figures, implying a truly unprecedented deterioration in consumers spending despite the flurry of panic buying and shift to online purchasing. So if you see,

I mean, Visa is actually up today. But I mean, if you see some blips in these names, will you be adding to it? You're not worried about the long term outlook here? And have you been adding? Have you been adding to Visa? Yeah? We have, we we added to Visa. Um the trend away from money, I mean, I'm sure you've seen the numbers two and the reports. You know, paper money carries more of the virus than anything. So I mean, if if anything, your credit card is

just a better, a better safety thing through this. But but that trend of using our our visas and a master cards in American expresses and e commerce is only going to be enhanced through this. And Nike said that on their conference call a week or two ago that you know, small percent of genn e commerce, they consider that to to grow by you know, kind of exponential, just given the way that people's behavior is changing. And once we do that, we're probably not going to go

back to some old behavior. And so that's our job to figure out where, you know, who's the big beneficiaries of that kind of thing. And I love Visa and master Card. I still love PayPal. I'd love to own American Express. It's just a little too tied to travel, so I'm kind of waiting on that one a little bit for now. Really interesting. We love talking names with you, Eric Clark. I really appreciate a portfolio manager. Portfolio manager

excuse me for Rational Dynamic Brands fund. We talked a lot of about a lot about some good brands I know and having trouble speaking um. And then in case he joined us on the phone from Sandy Ago. Always get to catch up with him. And as you say, Carol, as you said at the top, one of the best performers out there, so worth a listen for sure. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. You can subscribe to

the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show every weekday at two pm Eastern only on Bloomberg radioh