Day Three From Milken Global Conference

Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot Com. You can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern Time on Bloomberg Radio, or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg Global News. One of the feature conversations at the Milken Institute this year was Kathy Wood, founder CEO and ce IO of Ark and Vesh Ganner Company. About seven years ago, she gave Bloomberg Radio the first interview. She gave you the first interview myself in pim Fox.

Uh and uh. I remember it really well and I gotta keep you know. We point out that she beat just about every stock picker. She did, beat actually every stock picker in she bet on the innovators in DNA development. I mean, just an outperformance this year. We know it's been tougher one of her names though, uh, you know that she's been in We know Tesla. We'll talk about that later, but she's also been in and out of

China in terms of her exposure. There so so much to get into, and here's a little excerpt where we talked about her investment strategy in China. Our first move away from China was when China was you had a very strong move and you know, the innovation there was being deeply appreciated while ours was not. So that was

that kind of move um. The second time we moved or then then we moved in why we saw the reaction to COVID and we got more interested because it was the most disciplined country in terms of both monetary and fiscal policy, uh during the crisis, and I thought that China had the possibility of becoming the Germany and Switzerland of the world, you know, in terms of discipline

monetary um. As soon as jack Ma was banished effect of Lee last November, we started pulling back because what we're doing, and especially during February through May, where our strategy just to give you a sense how volatile it is. Our strategy from mid February through mid May. Most people wouldn't admit this maybe, but this this is how volatile transparency was down thirty peak to trough. So we have

come back. But during that period, what we do, as we always do, we concentrated our portfolio towards our highest conviction names. China was moving away because almost every week and month there was a new regulatory move, crackdown and uh so, so it was easy to do that. It was great because I'm always scrambling looking for cash during a correction. Okay, where is the confidence lower? Where? Where where less buy into our favorites here? Uh now common prosperity?

So what have we done? No China in our flagship. We do own some China in UM. A few of our portfolio is the ones focused on autonomous UH technology and robotics. But we're very particular, very low margin companies because margin is clearly not appreciated by the government anymore. Common prosperity UH and UH and very beneficially beneficial to Tier three, tier four cities Common prosperity. So j D Logistics JD dot Com can do. Does it stay this way? Do you think in China for a while? Well, it's

hard to say. But China is certainly country. When they make a decision, it's long longer term, it's longer term planning right to President g certainly seems to be on this mission, and I think he's very unsettled that the three child policy is not working, and so there's a big social engineering um. And by the way, this is all very forecastable. I mean demographics. You know, they knew fifty years ago what was going to happen, right, So

I think that that's part of it. And uh, you know, there there is, there is, There are the haves and the have not in China like there are like there is around the world. I think China is taking it more seriously because there's probably more social unrest than we now appreciate. What I don't want to understand is they're going after real estate, which is seventy of the consumer

savings in China, individual in China. And if if yes, individual saving, if if the prices are going down, which they have been, um, I think that could really hurt consumer confidence. I think it already is. And then last weekend, the weekend before the government, the national government went after the regulators, regulators who had focused on the financial industry as well as the financial institutions. And I'm just saying, Wow,

they're playing with fire the movie. Yeah, and talk about a cyclical risk out there, think about that if we lose China. At the margin, China has been responsible for a tremendous amount of cyclical growth, right and commodity price inflation. Okay, And that of course was Cathy Wood, founder CEO, chief

investment officer of ARC invest. So much to talk about, but it is interesting to have watched her investments in China specifically because she was in and then quickly got out and it was you know, you and I have had conversations with her on air too about just her back and forth with it. But she's very much watching what president she is up to. What I found really fascinating about that is the signal that she saw when jack Ma was um. I think she used the term

benched or at least pushed the travel. Did you see the story There was a story in the Bloomberg I think he traveled for the first time today, maybe out of China, and that was to her a signal of what was to come in China. And certainly since then we've seen the government crackdown on nearly every industry. But as she mentioned, she's not out of the country, she's thinking about it differently in these different different cities that

aren't necessarily getting the headlines very specific investments. I did

think it was fascinating to what she said. She found it surprising for President g to be targeting real estate because so much of wealth Chinese individuals have bought property and that's really a big part of their wealth, so that if he is increasing oversight of it and reduces the value that will hit into their wealth, and then it kind of goes against the common prosperity idea that he's on, right, because prosperity in the country is so tied to real estate right, much more so, you would say,

than the U S, where we are much more involved individuals in the equity market. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Kathy would, as we've mentioned, founder CEO CEO of ARC invest, one of the featured speakers here at Milk and she's been a long time investor in Tesla, and that's one of the things we talked about. Check it out and kind of thought we were behaving like a value manager, long term time horizon and looking for

extreme values. Well, value investors are using price to book and dividend yield and that sort of thing. We're using growth, you know, we're using spectacular growth rates that no one is expecting. And Tesla was our first proof of concept, I would say, a very visible one where people are saying,

what are they talking about? And all we had done was used rights law, which is the centerpiece of our our research, to try and figure out how quickly cost would decline in battery pack systems and therefore how how much prices would fall for electric vehicles and how quickly the uptake would be. And we saw, you know, on Musk magnificent things happening in too. But it wasn't so

easy to be invested in Tesla early on. For us, it was easy because you just believe the story or we well, for the most porton call that we made initially with Tesla was alright. Tesla's battery technology is unlike any other auto manufacturers battery technology. Tesla was riding down the cost curve of the consumer electronics industry. So laptop cell phones image volumes, right, And when you get a scaling like that, costs come down. It's called a learning

curve in in the tech industry. So, Ellen, you had auto manufacturers and auto analysts laughing at him. Ellen is building his car on top of cell phone batteries, Isn't that funny? And what they didn't believe was that the engineering was possible. So there was a It wasn't that,

they just didn't think it was possible, and he did. Uh. And so even today, Uh, these cylindrical batteries that he's been using, relative to lithium my own pouch lower cost and will remain lower cost for at least three years, we think, which means that any other auto manufacturer who wants the same performance and the same range at the same price, we'll have to lose money on every car sold. So it keeps him in a really great position. And

that's only one of four, barring one entry. Well, but that was the first call we had to make, so elon Musk and Tesla. So there is a point that you would get out. I know there's a story you've talked about. You've put a mark on the stock price. I think it was three thousand, Yeah, three thousand is our base case, not our bull case, but our base case. So we've talked Tesla, we've talked a little bit. Tell me a bit more about bitcoin and where you see

I mean, I've never seen anything so debated. Obviously, we're seeing more legitimization as we see regulators, certainly in the US and around the world moving forward. Today was a big day. Um, what is the long term play when it comes to something like cryptocurrencies in bitcoin? So bitcoin specifically, Um, we we got involved when it was a six billion dollar market cap and here's Art Laugher again in in My Life and in arts life. Um, it was a

six billion dollar cap. Fan. Now it's over a trillion, which is But we were asking the question this was two thousand fifteen. Could bitcoin serve the three rolls of money? And we came to the conclusion that it was possible.

Art Laugher collaborated. He tore our original paper up and as we were going through it, he said, this is the first this is the rules based monus monetary system I've been waiting for since we left the gold exchange standards, right, And I said to him, oh, how big could this be? And he said, well, how big is the U S monetary base? And back then, remember this is six billion dollar cap. Back then it was a four and a half trillion all our monetary base today where they'd and

half trillion? All right? That was Kathy Would of course of our invest CEO ce IO founder Tesla, which reports after the clothes that stocks up just fractually. Bitcoin though surging today right here, record high. Uh, And these are things that she is very optimistic about. For more of that interview, check it out at the Bloomberg and of course on Bloomberg dot com. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stenovich

on Bloomberg Radio. Well, here at the Milk and Institute Global Conference, talking a lot about investors investing to make things in a world better. It all falls under the umbrella vs G and impact investing for the most part. And on part with that is the story online of Bloomberg Business Week. Yeah, it's by Mark Champion, and it's about retrofitting buildings in the unsexy climate fix that the

world needs, installation in HVAC. Well, they don't get a lot of hype, but making buildings energy efficient on a large scale could slash carbon emissions. Joining us now lie from the Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studios in New York is Joel Webber, editor at Bloomberg Business Week. Joel, when we think about climate change, we oftentimes think about industries and governments and what they need to do in order to

curb emissions. What we don't often talk about are the buildings that already exist in our built world, or even buildings in general. Right, I think it's much more seductive to think about, you know, an vehicle transformation, right and like switching to electric vehicles, which you know sounds pretty good because you get a new car, but you know, living in an old building is actually uh potentially um worldwide a thing that you know, if we if we

were able to optimize it, it it might have even larger impacts. Yeah, it's really fascinating. It's funny. We caught up with um the CEO of Siemens Us, and she's talked about, you know, what they are doing in terms of air purification, like this is a big part of their business, like coming out of COVID and you do think about not sexy, right, I mean, we all are focusing so much an alternative energy and new methods and so on and so forth, but there's some really basic things that we could be

doing that would make a difference. Job. So so to bring it back to um mark champions story UM and and also you know, to even step back further, we're gonna hear a lot more about climate change in the coming days and weeks because of what's gonna happen in Glasgow with copy and so this is uh, you know, a version of a story that kind of sets this

stage for that. UM. But what he talks about, UM, I thought this was just a fascinating statistic, which is, if we think out to fifty of the buildings that are currently in existence will still be here in so for us to make a transformative, a transformative societal and global change in that time, we have to look at what's existing and basically deal with it right and and buildings are the epitome of that, because like how often do you rip open walls and actually reinsulate, which would

maybe help you use less uh propane to heat your house, which, by the way, that's going to have pretty interesting winter coming as we kind of suddenly have temperatures cooled down I know that, you know, being out in California, you probably don't have to think about that so much right now. But we're gonna stay here. Actually gonna say, it's been a little chilly at night. It's getting brisk here here in New York. It definitely feels like it's it's we're

rounding that corner. So, you know, how do you incentivize homeowners, contractors in a bigger way, you know, commercial buildings to actually deal with this, uh and incentivize them. And that's something that like, you know, we haven't really wrestled with yet. So it usually comes down to governments and countries, but it doesn't trickle down below that. Well, how do you do that? Is it? Is it tax incentives? Is it?

Is it telling homeowners, Hey, if you replace these windows that were installed on your on your in your apartment building in the nineteen seventies, you will get a tax break because you'll not only save energy, but you will be doing good for the climate. That's right in our Yeah, and you know a lot of that stuff already exists. But now it's like, how do you even sweeten the pot more and turn up the volume on it so that there's it becomes like a now just such a

no brainer. And then obviously, like you know, there's gonna be new construction too, and so making sure that new construction is uh, you know, completely up to stuff is going to be part of that part of that game too, and some of that has been rather lack still. Yeah, I'm just going to it. I know you mentioned some of these data points. Construction and operation of buildings accounts for thirty of the world's energy use and of all carbon emissions, according to the edition of the Global Status

Report for Buildings and Construction. I mean these are I guess what some would say, Joel, you know, low hanging fruit, right, and the technologies are there to make the difference that will make these buildings, whether it's new or old, more

energy efficient. Yeah. You know. Another one that Mark talks about in the story um takes us to Italy where they introduced a credit called the super Bonus, and so homeowners get to claim hun of the cost of an energy retrofit and gets their taxes over a five year period. So it's basically like, you know, you have to dumb this down in order to make it work. I think it's it's not just you can't. You can't just lean on people from an altruistic standpoint. You have to actually

incentivize them. And I think that ten percent of the cost of an energy regimic gets there because it's basically like you're you're you're making it so easy that you can't not do it. And when you think back to that that stand of nine percent in the buildings were inhabiting are basically gonna be the same ones that we have in That's the kind of thing that could maybe move that needle. Well. Homeowners are certainly a big part of this discussion, but what's happening here at Melcoln too.

We're talking a lot about the return to office and the way that executives are grappling with getting their employees back to offices. So what about when it comes to corporations and the buildings that they occupy in order to make sure that those are energy efficient. And I will say, just based on my own experience in New York, it does seem like, uh, commercial buildings are pretty far ahead. Again just anecdotally speaking in New York of residential well,

the scale of it. I think you have capital and and you have often publicly traded companies that can come in and and retrofit at at scale. And you know, often when you're thinking about this on a on a private matter, on a on a local level, you know, that becomes a much more difficult proposition when you're dealing with individual homeowners or apartment buildings or you know, New

York co ops. But you know, I think I think one thing that's going to be interesting is is and this I think goes to commercial as well as well as residential. Is like as existing buildings have ongoing maintenance and thing like having roofs redone that kind of stuff, you're gonna you're gonna end up with moments that there can be capital and fusion sort of organically and you know, people maybe redoing a roof and then financing to get solar on top of it, right or battery storages that

comes online. So you're gonna see organically moments in time in the life cycle of of home, you know, residential ownership or commercial ownership that incentivizes people to actually think about how do you take this to the next level and and do that retrofitting that you know you may may have put off. Yeah, and Mark Star also gets

into making sure. Here we are with supplies, chain constraints, labor constraints, and one of the individuals he interviewed for a story, Uh, he says, how will we make enough materials and skills capacity? Because if these things aren't fitted right, it will be for nothing. So they've got to make sure that the people have the right skills to do these things differently. Uh and so yeah, and you know,

just good luck finding people right. Something. Just almost everybody we've talked to here just says we can't get enough workers and jobs right. But yet here we see an opportunity with you know, potentially you know, high earning jobs in a in a field that seems like I might have growth potential. So you start connecting these things and I think a lot of businesses we'll see the opportunity that might lie in front of them. Here. Check out

marks story. It's on the Bloomberg and at Bloomberg dot com, Slash business Week. Joel Webber, editor at Bloomberg Business Week from the Bloomberg Interactor Broker Studios in New York. Joe Webber, thank you so much. This is Bloomber Business Week and this is Bloomberg Radio. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. So yes, day three at the Milk and Institute Global Conference, talking with a lot of investors when

it comes to various aspects of the financial market. Yeah, one of those investors we spoke to earlier this week was Mark Jenkins, head of Global Credit at Carlisle. We spoke to him just a couple of days ago, and

this excerpt of our interview. Jenkins talked all about his outlook for credit markets and also how yes G factors in check it out think what we've seen in the markets, and and by the way, like we cover over credits in our clos and you know, hundreds of credits in our private books, so we have a good insight into what's going on right now. You know, we still see relatively strong revenue growth and we've seen very good um you know, cost containment. You know, absently inflationary pressures we're

seeing right now. So as the numbers come in, we're sure that's going to change. But generally the health of our portfolios is quite good. UM. So you know, despite everything you see, everything you read and the volatility in the market, I would say in the private markets the companies that we're dealing with, you know, there's some wage and inflationary pressure for sure, but generally speaking, there in

very good shake. Well, and let me just follow up, because I think in the environment we've been, you've had interest rate starved investors, right, You've had an economy that's been reopening, and credits are cheap that pretty much any company that wanted to could tack the credit markets. So what happens as we reopen we move along, if those underlying premises that were pretty optimistic don't pan out, what

happens that d of mind. Well, here's a good thing as a credit investor which I always like to point out, which is what's happened in the past eighteen to twenty months, is that the actual equity cushion that we have in a lot of our investments is actually wider now or thicker, if you will, than pre pandemic. So from a from a marginal safety perspective, when you think about that, yes, we worry about where the economy is going, to the macro all those effects, but we really look to what's

that margin of safety today? And even if things go down dramatically, how much of a margin's safety do we still have? So when you look at debt to even daw, it's quite high from historic level people talk to But if you actually look at Eva Duck coverage ratios, they're actually high from a historical perspective on a broad aggregate basis. Right, it depends where you go, obviously, So all those things together it makes us feel very comfortable with the environment

we're in. But we have to be more thoughtful with respect to the under rights that we did. Carol brought up sectors. You gotta ask what sectors you think are particularly exciting to you right now? Well, we like, you know, I think we're slightly different than on the equity side, where we can drive a lot of value creations. So what we look at our companies that allow that a can be part of that um part of the value

chain with respect to cast agains for instance. Right, So do you do you have a product or a service that allows you to, you know, bring the cost of what you offer down. That's that's point one. We're not necessarily looking at companies that have this unbelievable top line growth. But if it hasn't great that's good for us. And then the difference between I think the investing we look at is we're cash flow investors, so we're looking at what are those near term cash flows because you know,

the duration of our investments are relatively short. So you know, if you're in the tech sector where your cash flows are pushed out ten or fifty years, that's probably not that attractive to us, because you know, we need cash

flow for our loans. But if you're in a service sector that provides something that you know, for instance, we have a company that provides um uh software that allows you to more efficiently manage healthcare claim and guess what, that's a pretty attractive It's a small input cost for a very big problem. So it sounds like it's not necessarily the headline companies, right, or that it's those companies maybe the mid tier or something that are really interesting

to you guys. Yeah, I think I think if you look at private credit as a whole, generally you're not dealing with what I would call the larger cap companies that you see in the in the leverage loan space and the banks indicated loan space. I mean, we do deal with those companies at times, and we do have large you know, one of the largest CLO managers in the world, so we do have a lot of those.

But I think on the private credit side, more or less you're looking at middle market companies and companies that have, you know, that don't have access to the capital markets traditionally. I'm wondering where you see private credit going over the next ten to fifteen years if you think about where it is right now versus where you think it will be. I think private credit is like where private equity was

ten or fifteen years ago. I mean, if you think about all of alternatives, which are roughly eight trillion dollars, one trillion is in private credit. If you think about all bonds and equities, it's about twenty five billion dollar markets. So we're relatively small as a portion of the alternatives, but we're even a smaller portion of the overall market itself.

And there's a number of drivers right now. One is people are rotating from public into private for that pickup because they need that incremental yield in a low right environment. Number two is public companies. There's not as many public companies as they're where it's ten years ago. As I'm sure. You know, there's actually twice as many private companies and

they're staying private longer, you know. And I think the third thing is is that you've seen a retrenchment from the banks who have kind of got out of the leverage lending space, mostly regulated out after the Great Financial Crisis. And then finally you've got to grow the retail where retail investors are saying, hey, I need to diversify my portfolio. So you get all that together, we think, you know, alternatives. I mean, there's a lot of demand factors and we

see growth at ten to fifteen percent a year. How does E s G play into all of this, because I feel like that's a big factor. I feel like the legitimization of E s G is really happening. Yeah, it is, it is, I mean, it's it's The good thing is investors are demanding it. And that's the point one if if if the customer demands it, then you should respond to it. And I think we are all

of us across the industry. I think for us, we've decided that we wanted to permeate all of our investments as opposed to have a special impact fund, and so we have ahead of v s D or Impact Mix Star. I know she's been on your shows before and she's excellent, and so she's done things like in credit in particular, where I said, I want us to figure out how we can measure the risk of our credit portfolio from

the E s G perspective. So we have an E s G, a risk assessment profile that we use and we look at all of our credits and we have a risk assessment for that going into the investment, and we have a risk assessment of what our portfolio looks like, which is powerful and that you know, we just recently put a two billion dollar credit facility in place from Bank of America where it is tied to those targets, and so the cost of that leverage facility, which benefits

our investors, is going down as a result of our ability to measure that risk and manage that us such an important part of our financial markets, the credit markets. That was Mark Jenkins, head of Global Credit at Carlisle Group,

the private equity firm. We know them well, but it is interesting to see, I mean, the debt markets can tell you so much about the health of the corporate economy and the corporate outlook and we know that it's been really easy for so many corporations to tap into low money, very accessible, but you do wonder what happens on the other side of it the economic expectations don't

play out. I was also struck by his prediction that private equity in today is basically the level he thinks that private credit will be at ten of fifteen years from now, which means it could just take off gangbusters all right again, Mark Jenkins, head of Global Credit at Carlisle Group. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser

and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. Well later this month, at the G twenty summit in Rome, a vast overhaul of corporate taxation will likely take another step forward. Tim. Already we know what a hundred and thirty six nations have resolved key differences over the level of a global minimum rate, but there's still some things to be worked out. It's something we talked extensively about

with Kate Barton. She's e WISE Global Vice Chair of tax and she's been at the Milk and Institute Global Conference. We caught up with her this morning. In this excerpt, Barton discusses global corporate taxation on the table at the upcoming twenty summit. I think what we're expecting in Rome is just further ratification of the inclusive framework that was just released in early October, and so this is talk

of the town right now. As you can imagine, to have a hundred and thirty six countries agree to a global minimum tax at a time when countries are very nationalistic and very focused on their own fiscal situation. It's really on landmark decision and agreement. Are your clients happy about it? Our clients are really worried. So you know, there's not enough detail for US tax folks yet to

be comfortable with how this is gonna work. So companies right now are trying to model it out, but were expecting a lot more detail to come out at the end of October early November, and that will help a lot. We need the questions answer, right, We know some details a hundred thirty six countries minimum global tax profits over though for some of the biggest tech companies, who are the winners and who are the losers? Well, it depends

by country and by sectors, you can imagine. So let's stick with pillar to which is the global minimum tax. That's the one that's probably most detailed at this point. Um, what we're expecting to happen next is the US is sort of front running the implementation of this with the Joe Biden proposals. A lot of what is in the Reconciliation Act is actually really coalescing with thecent minimum tax. So the US is one of the few countries that

actually has a minimum tax right now. But the issue is bringing that rate up from when you cut through all the deductions, is at thirteen and he would like to bring it north of the percent. Well, here's part of the problem in Kate, and I'm gonna play devil's advocate.

I mean, many would say that corporations, Global corporations have been able to game the tax system by going to countries that have a lower corporate tax rate and maybe not having huge operations, but they're able to whether it's I P. Intellectual property or something, and they benefit and they end up playing a pretty low effective tax rate. What these companies are trying to do is to prevent this from happening, right, Um, what do you say to that, well,

or what do you what? What is the thinking here? You know, countries have long had as a habit to look at their headline corporate tax rate to sort of invite companies to do business in their jurisdictions, especially smaller countries like Ireland has really had a lower tax rate twelve and a half percent, and that has invited companies in. And then what they do is they tax the wage. Journal that's been a longstanding policy and one of their

you know, countries feel like it's a sovereign right. So now they will do is increase the attax rate for companies over a certain revenue threshold. And I think we're going to see that around the world. Every country will decide what to do because what happens under these rules that's so complicated. But in short, the country either moves their rate up or the headquarters location, through some complex rules, will tax the income at a minimum of fIF or higher.

So in some ways you're a stakeholder. What is on the minds of our companies is they just don't want double taxation. In some ways they're a stakeholder, but they need to make sure that on every dollar or a profit, they don't have to jurisdictions claiming taxing rates over that dollar. So the coordination here is really important. I do want to clarify something. I believe I've had ten percent of profits, but it was of profits over a ten percent margin

from some of the biggest multinationals. Yes, So that's what we call pillar one, and that's the one that is

still being remanded for further consideration. That's less, but that's really important because that's what the high tech companies are waiting for because that with that provision will come the elimination of the digital services taxes, which, as you know, many countries right now have those on the books and some are looking to implement further all right, and that of course with Kate Barton, E Wise, Global Vice Chair of tax joining us here at the Milk and Institute

Global Conference. And you know, taxes. We always joke about it, but you put tax or taxation in the headline of a Bloomberg story, it often resonates very highly among our our readers, and among will often be among the most

read stories. But this is a big deal about companies who have you know, relocated overseas to take advantage of a lower corporate tax rate, and yet they maybe don't have much of an operation here, right, but sometimes I p or in intellectual property or something is parked here and enables enables them, especially when it comes to global revenues. Right to tax at a lower tax rate. Yea. And one of the challenges that comes along with that, of course,

is the United States. If it is traditionally in American company in the United States misses out on that tax revenue right, right. And then we always talk about the repatriation. Right We've seen that with an administration where you get kind of tax forgiveness, you can bring those profits back to the United States. And and then companies say, listen, we're gonna do We're gonna invest workers more, and they don't.

They do buy backs. When I was exactly when I was preparing for this interview this morning, I was thinking back to something that you say all the time when it comes to this stuff, is just look at the effective tax rate that a company. You know, every year and every quarter that we can see or every year in a company's anual report, the effective tax rate is

oftentimes even lower. Right Exactly, Companies find a way, and most people would argue, listen, you don't want to make it so prohibitive that companies are finding it difficult to invest in their future business. But come on, you're saying, maybe pay fair share, pay fair share, and maybe this will create a much more level playing field so there isn't so much competitions among countries. We shall see, and we'll be watching that G twenty summit in Rome that's

happening later this month. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com, and you can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg Global News m