Coronavirus Vaccine Distribution and Potential Mutations

us too on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week Carol Masser along with Bloomberg Quick Takes, Tim Stanovic and a lot of headlines too, and I just breaking them down for some of our audiences. But what's interesting is Bloomberg does a COVID resilience ranking.

It's a measure of the best places to be in the COVID nineteen era, and the US ranking drops deeply as we've seen the death toll surge, with one American dying from the virus every forty one seconds over the past month. Yeah, it's been it's been shocking to see the way that other countries have handled it. So much better than we have. But that at this point is like an old story, except for the fact that it keeps getting worse here in the US by many metrics, right, exactly,

all right, So let's get into it. Global nineteen uh COVID nineteen cases right now passing seventy eight million. So let's bring in Dr Sophia Thomas, president of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners, a doctor of nursing practice herself, um and she joins us on the phone in Louisiana along with Bloomberg News Health Team editor John Lowerman. He's

on the phone from Boston. So John, I do want to start with you because Tim and I have been talking a little bit about this mutation of the virus. What do we need to know and what do we need to know about the COVID nineteen vaccine in our protection against this mutation? Well, I would say at this point we need to know almost everything, because there's a lot of information out there. There's been some reports of the mutations that are in this virus in this particular

strain um. The UK government has been saying that they believe this strain spreads more easily. Monster slowe who is the UM scientific director of Opera and more Speeds and the press conference today that he hasn't seen any hard evidence of that. So I think, you know, the jury is still out on what you know exactly what this UM strain is, UM, what it does, and whether it

has any impact on the vaccines. Now the e m A, the European Medicine Agent Medicines Agency that just approved fiser and biosos vaccine today so that they did not believe it would have an impact on the effectiveness of that vaccine. So I think, you know, more work is going to be needed to be done on this, but we really don't have any solid concrete answers there. When will we get those solid concrete answers? I mean, do they have to actually do a clinical trial with this new strain

in order cylical trial is what's needed? I think you you know, so the way that the vaccines work just in general, you know, UM, just to kind of recap, is they raise these antibodies. The antibodies are called neutralizing aut advice. They show the immune system of protein and that sparks the development of these antibodies, and so you need to know, UM, you can probably tell in the

test tube. But whether or not these antibodies are the same antibodies that the body makes in response to the vaccine, are going to neutralize this mute strain and then of course the other issues. You know, you'll see it in the activity uh of the of the vaccine going forward. But um yeah, I don't think another clinical trial as in order. And right now, all right, I want to bring in Dr Sophia Thomas. So Dr Thomas, nice to

have you along with John here. So John really laying out kind of what we need to understand about this mutation and how the vaccine will protect us against it. Tell us about your observations with this news and what you're thinking about, especially when it comes to other nurse practitioners and those folks that you are working with. Well, you know, since COVID nineteen has started, really the news has changed every day, right, We've had um uh new news.

Things are trending. We learn new things literally every day, and that's why all the scientists, and my hat goes off to all the scientists who are really monitoring this closely. You know, as as this continues to develop, we'll see. But I think for the most part, those of us on the front lines of health care will continue to do what we do every day, masking up UM, using our PPE, social distancing, and recommending that for our patients

and and the general public. You know, this virus is transmitted from person to person, There's no question about that. And the one thing that we can do to really help prevent the spread is for all of us to do our part. Really be good neighbors and neighbors and uh use the protective equipment, wash our hands, social distance where those masks UM even just down to the grocery store and you know, you may be fine, you may be carrying that the virus and not even realize it.

But you know, people have the risk of transmitting it to other people. And we know now that it's not just impacting UM the most elderly and the most sickly, although UM it's think those are the significant numbers of people who are impacted, but we're having perfectly healthy people that are having suffering from complications from COVID that were you know, unforeseen. So every day with this virus, we're

learning more. We're learning more about the virus UM, the mutations, as well as all the downstream complications that can arise after having this, so Dr Thomas to that end. And when it comes to the vaccine, what are you advising members of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners and when do you think they will be completely vaccinated because they

are among those who are on the front lines. Well, we actually this week already have our our colleagues that are working in hospital systems being vaccinated and I'm so proud to see all their posts and social media. You know, we want to get the word out to the general public that we in healthcare aren't ready willing and able

and happy to take this vaccine. And when your number comes up, UM, it's certainly we encourage everybody to get vaccinated as soon as possible UM, and we support the CDC recommendations regarding the prioritization of the at risk population UM, you know, including the frontline health workers and seniors and

those with colude morbid conditions. And we really look forward to UM not only working with the general same local authorities to ensure the most effective and efficient vaccination process possible to protect the health of patients nationwide, but we look forward to the day when when all Americans can say they've been vaccinated and they're protected. Um, you know, you know, John, I want to go back to you or kick it off with you here, Uh for this block.

You've got a story on the Bloomberg about vaccines. Don't mean we'll see the last of COVID. You've been talking to experts. Um, this disease is going to be with us, what for a for a really long time, maybe forever. Well, that's hard to say. I think the point is the vaccines that we have that are coming online for COVID right now, they look actually very good. Um and uh, I think that it's it's um as we've heard. Uh. Medical people want to take these vaccines and they want

to protect themselves. So there's nothing wrong with the vaccine. The issue is that mass vaccination programs often take a long time, they aren't always completely successful. And as a matter of fact, we know that the only one of only one disease that's really been eradicated as a result of vaccine in that small pox. But people have been trying to eliminate um diseases like pollio for decades and it's just very difficult to do. It's very difficult to

get everybody to take a vaccine. At the same time, and when you don't have the entire population vaccinated, you have poc to people who are unvaccinated, and then they tend to affect one and affect one another, and then other people who who for whatever reason don't have the vaccine or declined to take the vaccine, those people become infected as well. And then so you you have this continual reservoir that can last and last. And that's basically

the idea. So it's very difficult, despite the despite the existence of effective vaccines, to actually eliminate or eradicated disease. So what does that mean for the future? John? Does it mean that we're going to have COVID hotspots like we do with other diseases that we've tried to eradicate, or does it mean that it will sort of always be lurking there. I think there's a good possibility or at least this is what my source has told me,

that it won't be eradicated. It's an extremely contagious disease. Um diseases that have been eradicated, or the loan disease that's been eradicated. Small pox is not actually all that contagious. But you know, as we've talked about a little bit um this new strain, Uh, they sort of more transmissible, but COVID is known to you know, reach people, um who are working apart from each other in the packing plans. That's terrifying. It's a very cannas to zo. Drs Thomas.

I want to bring you back in because I know something that you've been focusing certainly is about some of the inequities about about there. You know, we are concerned that everybody gets access to the vaccine. Ultimately, what are your thoughts on that. Well, you know, ultimately that that's the goal and that's the ideal but ideal, but as as John just said, you know, getting everybody to take that vaccine is going to be quite difficult. So so COVID will probably be with us for a long time.

And you know, you know, I'm proud to be a nurse part of one of the most trusted professions and and I you know, calm a nursing colleagues to encourage patients as much as possible to take it. UM. We also don't know how long um we're going to have that immunity from the scene, and we might be looking at a situation where we get the vaccine annually. UM, it might be part of our annual flu vaccine. We

just don't know yet. There's a lot of there are a lot of unknown So Dr Thomas, what is what is the way that you communicate to patients and you tell your nurse practitioners to communicate to patients that this is a vaccine that there need to get, especially when

there is so much skepticism out there. And just got about forty seconds here, absolutely that you know, the message to patients is we have a vaccine that's available that can help prevent you from getting COVID nineteen, hopefully prevent you from getting it and spreading it to another person. And then the message is always at the end of the day, where a masked social distance practice proper infection control measures right, right. We know over and over everyone

says that that's what works. UM, Thank you so much. Dr Sophia Thomas, President of the American Association of Nurse Practitioners with us on the phone from Louisiana. John Larriman, healthy manager at Bloomberg News on the phone from Boston. You can check met Lowerman John on Twitter and also of course at Bloomberg dot comment on the Bloomberg This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio.

I gotta say this is our world in a headline, It's been a great year for stocks and a bear market for humans. Investors ignoring the pain of the pandemic and betting on a future where well, we'll just let maybe in the future will come back as stocks and not humans. I don't know, I'll let I'll let the next to explain it all. Michael Reagan is senior editor and lead blogger of Bloomberg Markets Live Blog. He's with us from New Jersey. Also Bloomberg Business Week editor Joe

Weber on the Access Line in Brooklyn. It is that headline, Joel just sums up our year so perfectly. Yeah, And it's almost like you don't need to read the story, but you should because it just sits it all in one place for you. Um and and coming back as a stock sounds sounds kind of terribul but maybe not maybe.

Uh you know, uh. This is like one of the great joys of my job is being able to like just reach out to somebody like Mike Reagan and be like, um, I feel like we need to do some business together and he comes back with something like this, which started with some thoughts about big numbers, um, and some of them are are kind of humbling. So so Mike, walk

us through how you arrived at the story. Yeah. So, you know, I feel like the whole year, we've all been sort of really had this fixation on these statistics that have just been crossing in the headlines every day, just eye popping numbers that we never thought we'd ever seen in our life times, whether it be you know, the millions of jobs lost, then we cover you know,

three hundred thousands and counting deaths from the fires. Just a lot of people talk about it as the year that where all charts were broken, because if you look at so many different statistics, is just so off the map that you can't even figure out what's going on in other years. But to me, it's just to spend this dichotomy all year that it's just I think that's surprising and um, it's of alarming to a lot of people just how well the markets done in the face

of just such heartbreaking, um human suffering. You know, not only the the thickness and the death, but just so many people still out of work. We're still down about ten million jobs from where we were before the pandemic, something like twenty seven million people in the country that don't have enough to eat, and yet the market is acting like it's, you know, the best of times, or

at least expecting the best of times. So, you know, we cover the markets every day, sort of every twist and turn of the tap on any given day, it just felt like a good time to step back and say, Wow, what just happened this year? What? What? What is the deal with this sort of this disparity between the heartbreaking economic and human suffering statistics and these stock market statistics

that are just off the charts. Do it, um so as an attempt to sort of reconcile those two and try to just take a step back, take a breath, and write out what a bizarre year was from that perspective. So here we are at almost at the end of the year, with a little bit of the benefit of hindsight. What has allowed the market to be so disconnected from

main street? Yeah, I think there's a couple of things, um From one, obviously, the Fed keeping interest rates as low as they did and sort of innoculating the quipate credit market and buying up a lot of treasuries every month. It's kind of almost you know, forced this risk seeking

behavior in financial markets. Um. At the same time, for those of us who were lucky enough to keep our jobs this year, you know, well, there was really no option to spend that sort of discretionary money that you would have spent on, say, taking a vacation somewhere, going to a baseball game or a concert. So you know, I think there's evidence that a lot of that savings

ended up getting puts work in the stock market. And the rest I think Wall Street is looking at with bug Eys just saving dreeks at amount and tad this year and thinking, once the world is back to normal, that there's just kind of this bottlenecks of demand, the bottleneck of money and savings, that that should get trickle fact maybe in gushing back into the economy once we're all you know, able to go out and enjoy the

world again. But the only thing, you know, Mike, there's a line in your story investors seem to be betting on a permanent shift in the structure of work in the economy. I do think we were just talking about real estate, Tim and I you know that we're seeing people buy up some distressed assets. I do think that there are going to be structural changes, whether it's retail, whether it's medicine, whether it's education, whether it's how we

use real estate. I do think there's gonna be things that are lasting, and I think to some extent investors are seeing past that and incorporating that in I I agree with Carl and I think, you know, there was

a very interesting I'm actually recycled that. Uh, that's that comestily about My colleagues are conduct earlier years talk to love and since uh studies at the Stone expert creature and he ran some numbers that showed that the companies that are at least dependent on their human workforce, Uh, this year just totally killed it in the stock market did way better than companies that are very dependent on human workforce. And I know it's the one only thing to think about. I think it's the kind of a

de questive thing to think about. But obviously the stock market forever has sort of rewarded companies that are able to reduce labor costs, to cut those costs to the bone, and that's that phenomenon that tendency to sort of you know, always improve those margins, even if it's at the expense

of human workers. I think that tendency really, uh was turbo charged this year because of the pandemic and because of this sort of acceleration in technology trends and sort of bringing forward of the demand that a lot of companies, um we presumably would have had in the future to sort of automate more of their workforce ort to you know, sort of get ahead of the technology curve as a

margin margin boosting the element of their business. So, um, you know, a really alarmic thing happened when we saw the job mark the destimating the way it was, um, you know, Mike. The the other thing that's worth mentioning here is the something of an outlier to the robot trend. Number two best performing stock in SMP, Etsy, I love that. So can you talk about that? And and if you came back as a stock, would you be et C

or something? Now that there's anything wrong with being at c Hlwebber interesting exception to the rule that pres little the rally that the good time for all the people meeting and potters and factors at home great source of Christmas presents in my household just for the really no, but it says a lot. I mean that just blows.

It's up three twenty nine almost three. Uh yeah, Actually was it one of the CBS news programs Amendament, CBS Sunday or somebody did showed a couple of people who who've been on who just like kind of got onto Etsy recently. And it's just you know, it's like a mother and a daughter making candles. Uh. It's pretty amazing. Um, how they just kind of find their way. Yeah. And um, look, the investor and investors this year have loved the company's stock.

I guess the question is, you know, can it continue? Yeah? Well, and there's people who find something and then like stick with it. Um. Great, great story. Mike Reagan, as always as Joel says, you know I need something interesting. Hey Mike, what are you up to? Uh? And Mike always delivers. Mike Reagan a senior editor and lead blog or at Bloomberg Markets Live blog on the phone from New Jersey. Check them at it Reagan Anonymous on Twitter and also

at Bloomberg dot com. Joell Webber, of course, editor of Bloomberg Business Week. And you can check out the new issue of Bloomberg business Week magazine, which is all about kind of how our work world has changed dramatically, the urban Exodus. It's my favorite color cover that we've had. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer from Bloomberg Radio.

You know, it's interesting. I was listening to David Western earlier and he had on Nicholas Burns at the Harvard Kennedy School who said that the recent cyber attack on the US government and corporations and think tanks may turn out to be the largest cyber attack on the US up to this point. Yeah, it's pretty significant. So we're kind of unpacking this, so let's get into it and

what you need to know with us right now. Is Bloomberg News cybersecurity editor Andy Martin on the phone in New Jersey, along with Neil Bridges, who cybersecurity advisor at Root Access Protection consultant for tech training from I NY. He is on the phone from Chicago, and Andy, I want to start off with you briefly just kind of set the stage. Where are we in terms of what we know about this? Because I know a bunch of officials, including Attorney General William Barr said that this was likely

carried out by Russia. Other administration officials have also said the same. Yeah, I mean, I think it's still very early day. I mean, this is a UM was a very clever and spifated attack that that targeted UM, a popular software program that's used to manage it by by

government agencies and companies around the world. So UM basically, whoever UH updated the software between March and June of last year, UM UH may have gotten a kind of a backdoor that these hackers installed in it that they could then go back and and sort of use it as a sort of staging round from attack. So UM. This company, Solar Winds, who produced the software, said as many as eighteen thousand customers may have gotten this malicious back door. So what's happening now is UM customers of

Solar Winds are going into their networks. They're trying to identify whether or not they have this malicious update. And after that comes the hard part, which is trying to figure out if these hackers actually entered their network. UM. You know, there's a lot of reasons that it's difficult, but one is, you know, the way the software operations

as I understand it is. You know, they would have UM administrative credentials when they're in these networks, and they're hard to trap because they look like an authorized user. So UM, so far it looks like it's the Russians. But again it's right days William Barr said that um UM and Mike Pompeius said that, but not the President China. But it looks like it's the Russian It's so Neil. I want to bring you you in here, cybersecurity advisor

at Root Access Protection. I'm wondering, giving your career, where does what we know about this hack and what you've seen thus far, where does it fall on the spectrum of what you've seen. UM, Thanks to appreciate that and thanks for having me on. I think that this definitely represents I think what a lot of us are calling in the industry as as as close to the cyber security pearl harbor as I think we've come in the

in the number of years given. You know what I said, not good, no, no, and I think you hear you hear Andy talk about you know, potentially eighteen thousand customers

haven't have instlved this. Just to understand the size of this plume solar winds is installed in over three hundred thousand you know, environments across the globe, and that's been whittled down to, you know, just what the community has been able to have attacked about potentially eighteen thousand um, you know that could have had this malicious back door installed.

One of the things that we have to look at those that if this is indeed the Russians, if it does indeed proved to be you know, you know, definitively the Russians, and this does end up being an espionage campaign, and that really only narrows it down to about probably the top fifty you know companies that would have allowed them to basically further their strategic advantage, um, you know, from a Russian cyber attack. Respect is. Yeah, it's really fascinating,

Martin Microsoft. Well, and hang on it for a second. I just want to tell our audience that right now President elect Joe Biden is getting ready to get a COVID nineteen vaccine. Actually he just got it. Uh So, I just wanted to bring it to everyone, and we know various officials around the world we're seeing that happen. But again, presidelect Joe Biden just getting the COVID nineteen vaccine, so watching that, but also watching the cybersecurity So Neil,

I mean, um, should this not have happened? Uh? Solar Winds is saying that they warned a lack of security. What happened here. I don't think it's don't think it's fair to say that this shouldn't happen. I think one of the things that that is critical in our industry is that we assume a breach mentality as Hey, Neil, I'm sorry, hang on for a second. We just want to take everyone to where Joe Biden is president elec Joe Biden because he is making some comments listen to

everyone my next visit and uh. But the important thing is that it's worth stating that, you know, this is just the beginning. It's one thing to get the vaccine out now. Dermot Is is going to be on the road as well, but it's gonna take time. It's gonna

take time and then meantime. I know, I don't want to sound like a seller note here, but I hope people listen to all the experts from the doctor fauci is on talking about the need to wear masks during this Christmas and New Year's holidays, wear masks socially distanced and uh. And if you don't have to travel, don't travel. Don't travel. It's really important because we're still in the thick of this. It's one thing to have the vaccine

show up at the hospital. There's another thing to get the vaccine from that vial indo a needle into an arm. And uh, there's millions of people out there. They're gonna need this front line workers first. But I just want to thank everyone for all that they've done. Is some real heroes, some real heroes. You're among them. Thank you.

All Right, you're seeing President elect Joe Biden. For those of you obviously in radio can't see this, We're just watching a live feed President elect Joe Biden fist bumping uh the healthcare uh individual who just administered the COVID nineteen vaccine to him. So um again, we're starting to see, you know, a lot of people and certainly are higher officials Joe um. President elect Joe Biden, of course older and certainly makes sense for him to begin in that vaccine.

We saw, yeah, and it absolutely as we saw a lot of members of Congress to posting photos from over the weekend getting it of getting the vaccine. Yeah, alright, so watching that of course, COVID nineteen. We do want to get back to our guests and our apologies for the interruption. We are talking about this cyber attack on the US government and companies. Annie Martin still with a cybersecurity editor Bloomberg News. Neil Bridge is still with US

cybersecurity advisor Root Access Protection consultant Protect Training Firm. I any so, Neil, Um, I was saying you were you were talking about and I kind of said, you know, should should this have happened? I mean, Solar Winds was kind of there was an advisor there. Um, this was the company that warned you know, his management management of cybersecurity risks and had laid out a plan to improve it,

but was ultimately ignored. Um. Is it just maybe more surprising that something like this didn't happen sooner rather than now absolutely care? And that's what kind before that. I think. I think what companies have to do is they have to assume um, you know, if reach mentality. And this is why I've focused on the people and the training

is incredibly important. You know, you you cided in this In this instance, they didn't listen to the folks when when these types of security vulnerabilities were highlighted UM coming from the teams that are ultimately responsible with the security

inside of Solar winds Um. I think that that shows just a lack of transparency and lack of accountability UM at the highest levels of leadership and organization like Solar winds Um to not be able to to take that information into consideration and be able to protect not just their own data, but the valuable access that they have to over you know, over over, you know, the course of the three thousand clients that they have globally. Yeah, one thing I would like to kneel about. I mean

our story today about Solo Leans. I mean, it does appear that Solo Leans had some security issues UM historically or they didn't address some of the things that the

cyber advisors are recommending. But you know, these actors, whether they're Chinese or Russian or US are extremely talented UM, and my senses that if they really want to get into a network, even if they would have had really good defenses, they probably couldn't kneel what you say, your sense agree and That's that's why I get back to you know, organizations, you know, need to need to adoptimize that that it's not a matter of if they're going to get hacked, it's a matter of when they're going

to get hacked. UM. That way they can focus on you know, you know, the identification of of these types of tales of of when their organization may be comper minds being able to respond faster to those indicators. And then we need to have more transparency and that needs to be driven UM, you know, by consumers, by organizations and by Wall Street, UM, so that we get more more more forthcoming information about these cyber attacks so that

we can we can respond to them, you know appropriately. So, Andy, what what happens now? What do we see play out over the next few months as companies discover their vulnerabilities and the data that was accessed. Well, I mean, I think the big question we don't know is the potential scope of this is Neil point alluded to, is huge, But we don't know what they took or what they

were looking for. And I think, you know, there's this painstaking investigative process going forward in these US agencies and and in UM private companies that were breached to try to go and retrace the hackers steps to figure out what they got, what they're looking for, what the motive is. We don't know what the motive is, right, We don't know what they're lookingclen the Treasuring Department or the Department

of Homeland Security or what might have been stolen. And so um I think now the process is just trying to like retrace uh and and and and assess the damage well and with all with all due respect of that thing, Andy, I think, um, you know, we may never know what they were trying to access on the government side, but one thing is for certain is that companies like Microsoft and Cisco, UM and some of these other large name organizations that were you know, also impacted

by by the security breach. We know that these adversaries, if they were indeed on an espionage campaign, we're utilizing those companies to gain access to some of these other government entities. UM. I think that those organizations should start to look and see what what interconnectivity that they have with with other high profile clients, and that would be good indicator is to to some of the other ones that they have access to. So I don't know, Neil.

You know what's interesting is too I wonder like, what do we learn from this? Um, you're a former member of the U. S. Air Forces, I think network war for Warfare unit. Excuse me, so you served at cyber command there. Um, what is it that the government now is going? What is it that the government is going to have to do differently now? Um? And really just

to make sure that our systems are secure. We're talking about really serious parts of our government that that you know, we're attacked and people got access to absolutely, And I think I think the first thing is to break down a little bit of that barrier, right, is that this is this is another day in the office for for the government, especially the network warfare teams, both on the

offense and the defensive side. This this just happens to be one that made it, you know, kind of bubbled up to the top from a news perspective, So so you know, it is another day in the office. I think what makes this one different, right, is that it has led over into having some some real commercial impact.

And I think that what that really highlights for you know, folks who may be listening or or or worried about their companies and our organizations, is that that line between cyber warfare you know that the government is oftentimes engaged

with you know, you know, across the cyber boundaries. It is now really starting to pull in a lot of you know, you know, household name businesses like Microsoft, like Cisco, um and you may actually see that that more organizations are susceptible or in those crosshairs, um you know, of of being involved in this cyber warfare. Then then probably what you're typically used to to thinking about from a

government on government perspective. But I think back to your original question, um, you knows, as the government starts to unpack this and and see what what potentially this could have had from an espionage perspective, they're looking to see, you know what what potential types of um, you know, tactics they may have have to change, what potential types of access that they did get inside of the Treasury or Department Homeland Security or some of the other you know,

impacted industries are impacted in areas of the government, and then take that data and try to to pivot and and obfuscated and hide it more. I think what we really need to look at is, you know, the level of trust that we're putting into company like Solar Winds and countries like Microsoft and some of these other third

party companies. Andy to that ended. One thing that really surprised me and opened my eyes in reading about the Solar wins hack over the last few days was the reliance that the U s Government has on third parties, the reliance of the US government has on the private sector in order to keep this data safe. Because you you know, you are only as strong as your weakest link, and if the software you're using can be accessed by

rogue actors, then that's not necessarily an okay thing. Does this make the US government question their reliance on the private sector for this type of work? You know, I don't know the answer to that question, to be honest. I mean, I think one of the issues we have to sort of try to address this Toronto is to figure out what went wrong and why the US didn't

have all the money they spent on cybersecurity. Why didn't they have a way to sort of flag the fact that hackers were in their networks for months at a time. I don't know the answer, want, I don't know what the failure was. I mean, certainly, yes, they got into this third party, but UM, I don't we don't understand yet why they were able to sort of stay in

these networks so long on detective mail. What's your thoughts on on that on that question, and especially when you think about the government thinking about kind of its supply chain, you know, tech technologically, the the government's really starting to expand out its reliance on third party. If you if you look at some of the contracts that have happened over the last couple of years, especially as they move into some of their d O deep private cloud uh,

you know, contract conversations between like Google and Amazon. UM. You know, I don't think we're going to see a decrease reliance on on the private sector. I think that UM, with the advent of the the government's Cybersecurity Maturity Model that went into effect on the first December. UM, that's a move in the right direction to try to put some more controls in place to validate some of these

companies and that the protections that they're putting in place. UM. You know, supposedly companies like Solar Winds and Microsoft have those controls in place and are that that level of compliance. UM. But This gets back to what I was saying before, is that we have to assume that that no system is impenetrable, and we have to get used to the fact that we're going to see more and more these

cyber attacks. And can I assume that the US is similarly similarly doing this on other governments as well, Neil, I think that that's absolutely fair. I think it's completely fair to assume that that any government out there in the world, whether it's you know, Russian, US, Chinese, you know India, you know, France, whatever the cases, they all have you know, offensive cyber operations going on um to

try to protect their national sovereignty. Yeah, do you if Neil QUI really quickly though, Andy Nel, what's the what's the precedent for this attack? I'm trying to think of one that's sort of I mean, maybe they're not pet you attack, but as there are others that you could think of that sort of resemble it in terms of its scope. Got about thirty seconds. Neil, Sure, absolutely, I I think I think not PETYA is a good way to to look at this from a global scale perspective.

I think this is vastly different because the control that an organization like Solar Winds from a singular company has um what was far greater than what we saw from a not PETYA plus that was very driven by financial you know, gained by the by the by the company that or the country that perpetuated it. This one was done for espionage. I think the motives are vastly different. Alright, great stuff, guys, Thank you so much. That was really

a wonderful deep dive into that cyber attack. Annie Martin, cybersecurity editor, up Bloomberg News on the phone from New Jersey. Neal Bridges, cybersecurity advisor, a root access protection consultant for tech training from Irony on the phone from Chicago. Get ready for more is all I'm gonna say. Ye, turn on that two factor authentication is what the cybersecurity experts remind everybody, right ro journal Yeah, but you let me drive? Oh no, no, no, no no, all right, please, I want

to drive, just drives the questions drying. Yeah, this is the drive to the globe community. Thanks, we'll drying us Dawn on Bluebird Radio. It is time for the drive

to the close back with us. As Brian Yackman, he is chief Investment Officer and portfolio manager lead manager of the y CG Enhanced Fund that fun by the way, in the ercentile of the past five years, returning nearly six on average annually and count some big names that you know, MasterCard, Nike, Moody's amongst some of its top holdings. Brian is based in Austin, Texas. That's exactly where we find him. Brian, Nice to have you here with Tim and myself. How are you. It's great to be back,

doing really well, enjoying the season. Yeah, every everybody's moving to Austin. Yeah, I was just gonna say that, Brian. How does it feel to be in like the coolest place in the world right now in the US for businesses? I guess well we planned it that way, of course, of course. So's it's great, like we you can almost get the winter months here. So we were out caroling with our kids last night, bringing cookies to neighbors and such, and you can go out in a T shirt and

we could not do that here. Um. So let's talk about the market environment right now. I know you specifically look at names, so right now where it feels like record after record, despite maybe a little bit lower today, Um, are you finding opportunities right now, are feeling like you want to commit new money or is it just kind of holding strategy right now. So I don't know if i'd say a whole lot of brand new names, um, but there are some names that we feel more excited

about relative to others. UM. I think that you know, it's no surprise as to anybody that most talks are

way more expensive now. UM, But I think it maybe a little bit of a surprise to some that that's the case with some of these recovery plays, because even though they are individual stock prices may be lower relative to the beginning of the year, you know, like airlines, cruises, hotels, many of them are actually way more expensive when you look at the entire enterprise divided by their cash flows.

And I'm not just talking like next year's cash flows, but I'm saying, even beyond into the recovery, they're looking way more expensive because they've burned through so much cash and as they've incurred all these losses and then they need to take on so much debt to survive, and uh, these businesses, we're saying, man, they're more expensive than they were at the beginning of the year. Despite not having recovered UM. But then you have other companies, like you

just mentioned Moody's being in our top UM. We started to add to SMP Global UM and another one I bring up is Progressive. They've all had great, I mean incredible business performance UM this year, but interestingly, their stocks haven't really participate paid it and rebounded nearly as much as these others UM relative to the beginning of the year. I mean, they're doing well, but not they're not blowing

things away. Yeah, like their performances is killing it. But but what I'm saying is when you adjust when when you look at price relative to their total I'm looking at the total valuation, right, So their businesses the stock prices up, but it's not up nearly as much as you'd expect it to be given how well it's outperformed.

So like, if you look at like the staff companies UM, you know, they've all had great performance and a lot of acceleration of demand, and their stock prices in a lot of cases they've gone up way faster than revenues and cash flows. You know, like the zooms, Shopify, Dated Dog, Twilio, all that stuff. But these guys, what I'm saying, is their performance has also been amazing, but their stock prices haven't reacted. You'd think they'd be up just as much

as all those guys. And I think it's because people are fearful that they're good results for maybe just a one time exceptional result, and that will lead to a hard comparison next year. But we don't think that's necessarily the case. And really, to us, that's the kind of the perfect opportunity is when investors are saying, hey, this business is really great in the long run, but we're fearful that maybe it's gonna have tough comparisons year over year.

Now is not the time to buy it. Those short term concerns usually lead to some of the best mispricing opportunities, and especially well, I was just gonna saying, especially if it's connected to it's such a high quality business. High quality tends to almost perpetually be undervalued, and so we think investors are wedding both of those principles leading to great opportunities in those companies. What do you think of

just where we are right now big picture? You know, we're we're at this place where we're at the end of the year, the market has done incredibly well, but it's so disconnected from the actual real economy where millions of people are unemployed and underemployed. When is the market going to catch up to main Street and see some sort of pullback? Well, I think that it's you know,

there's so much liquidity slashing around. It's obvious and and there's no question that we see evidences of what just seemed to be very speculative um type behavior across the board. But I think the problem is that when when people are investing purely based on saying, well, I'm waiting or anticipating the pullback, I think those things are too difficult to predict and we don't really know. Could this turn

into like a Japan like environment. You know, before the whole Lost Decades happened in Japan, the Chiller cape ratio, as an example, went up to about ninety. We're at like a thirties something. I'm not, by any means saying I think that this is not me saying I'm super bullish and we should. I think the market's gonna double from here, triple. What I'm saying is is that you can go for decades with a cape ratio being highly elevated, and with all the liquidity slashing around, it's trying to

find places to go. And I think that the dangerous people reaching for yield trying to find it in probably some of the most dangerous places. And so we think the right move is just to on these global champions that have enduring pricing power so that you don't have to try to time the market, right, you just know that you feel confident you're in good place. Hey, listen, just got about forty five seconds here. Wells Fargo is a name, um that you guys like it's down this year?

When does it? And I understand right, probably a great value play if it ultimately turns around. Um, is that what you're banking on? Yeah, I mean it certainly is way cheaper than all the other great banks out there.

We do own JP Morgan and Bank of America as well, UM, and I think they're kind of better one stop business model, um globally, But you know, I just it's one of those that, Yeah, it's a it's a value play that we think is a little bit too cheap to pass up, and uh have unfortunately we owned it before it became a problem. It's not one we're proud to own. But it is a it's definite. It's one of the few contrarian plays in the portfolio. Yeah, interesting stuff, Um, listen.

We always love talking names with you, Brian, so thank you so much. Brian Yachman, he's chief investment officer at y CG Investments, joining us on the phone from Austin, Texas. Thanks so much for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or at Bloomberg dot com, and be sure to check out our daily radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio. And be sure to watch us too on YouTube by searching Bloomberg Global News.