Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts, radio News. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek with Carol Masser and Tim Steneveek on Bloomberg Radio.
Okay, well this is related to politics. Carol a story on the Bloomberg earlier today. This by our own Jeff Green, who covers diversity for Bloomberg News. It's about Robbie Starbuck. Some call him the anti DEI influencer. He's got a message for companies who are making public but surface changes to their diversity policies. You are not off the hook.
Starbuck has claimed victory for changes to DEI policies at more than fifteen companies, from Walmart to Toyota, and he's continuing to check on companies to make sure that the retreat is real. Curious what Sherry Dunn thinks about this. She's DEI leader at ITBOM Training and Consulting. It provides online education classes for DEI. She's also a fellow at the American Leadership Forum. She's got a brand new book out. It's called Qualified, How competency checking and race collide at work.
She joins us this afternoon, Cherry, good to have you with us. Congratulations on the book. Thank you what's happening out of Washington when it comes to DEI is something that a lot of companies right now are responding to. They're saying, hey, we are rolling back our DEI programs. How do you respond to that?
Yeah, Well, I would say, first of all, Robbie Starbuck doesn't have a lot degree. He is someone who has elevated himself and been elevated in the media to have way more knowledge and influence than he does. Diversity, ecre inclusion, affirmative action in the workplace has not been outlawed. In fact, a recent federal judge put a hold on many of
the anti DEI executive orders, primarily citing the First Amendment. Now, corporations have a right, as we know from citizens United, to express themselves politically, and so the idea that corporations have to fundamentally alter what are legal elements of having a diverse workplace is hysteria. And now that hysteria has worked, and that hysteria has been very effective, but that is
exactly what it is, hysteria. And there are companies we have seen who where their shareholders have said, no, we're not going to abandon our principles and our workplace culture initiatives, because essentially that's what they are. Any corporation or business in this country that works internationally has been doing what we call diversity equity inclusion for years. That means understanding the workforce that they have, being inclusive of their needs,
being equitable in their pay. So, you know, my response to Robbie Starbuck and to people who fold, is that you're folding because you want to, because he does not have, in fact, the weight of law him on his side as it relates to workplace Do.
You think he has the weight of the way that Americans feel about these policies? As Carol mentioned earlier, we did have close to half the country vote for the president, and part of that platform did include the idea of rolling back what he said his words are woke policies.
So a couple of things. The fifty percent of the people who voted, so that's not fifty percent of America. So we do have people who don't vote a significant number, and you know they may have woken up on one of these days since January feeling some kind of way about not having voted. But of those who voted, that
percentage of people they voted on what they believe. The mis and disinformation about diversity ecre inclusion is perhaps what some people now have come to believe, or rather, I should say come to understand, is that their son or daughter who is autistic and who has accommodations in the workplace is part of diversity ecreinclusion. Child who has ADHD, who has accommodations in the workplace is part of diversity ec inclusion. The diversity ecre inclusion in no way form
requires hiring quote unquote unqualified people. But I will say that there has been an extremely effective disinformation campaign by Robbie Starbuck, the Claremont Institute and others who have convinced a portion and to your point, a portion of those who did vote, that somehow this scary monster is causing them issues, when in fact, for almost every single American policies that we categorize as DEI are things that they benefit from.
One thing I wanted to ask you, because I feel like this is part of the issue, or.
Some would say it is.
When did diversity sherry come to be equated with a lack of qualifications, whether it's white, whether it's men, women, whether it's like take it wherever you may go, yes.
Well, so in the book, I take us all the way back, because so much about who we are goes back to our origin story, right, And so you know, during reconstruction in the United States, something we don't study much,
which is a bit of a problem here. But during reconstruction, the North came to the South to help reconstruct the South and provide opportunities for not just newly freed enslaved people, but folks who had been free in the North, black folks who came to the South, and immediately their presence was classify as unqualified, unqualified, an intelligent, uncapable of participation.
And at the end of reconstruction, which brings in Jim Crow, which goes until my lifetime, until I'm born in sixty eight, the same narrative. So reconstruction ends and black congress people locally are kicked out of office in South Carolina, kicked out of office federally under the pretense that they are unqualified to participate in the democratic process. So this is a historical story when it comes to African Americans, and any attempt to require or to pry open just the
door of opportunity has been met. I mean Andrew Jackson. I think it is Jackson that Johnson the President said, you know, and this is after slavery, that any attempts to help the formerly enslave were reverse discrimination. So that's the first reverse discrimination argument. So it really seems to be a response to pushes to have a multi racial, multi inclusive workplace in society and has nothing to do with the modality and everything to do with the ultimate aims.
So, in your work that you do as a consultant for DEI are you less busy, more busy than you were before the narrative started to shift?
You know, that's a great question. So I'm in Oregon, so I want to say that, so you know, I'm not in certain states where the states have outlawed the work. So I think there is a pullback. I think there is a fear. I know people are getting bad advice from attorneys. I had a client say to me that they had a law firm tell them that affirmative action no longer existed and they can't recruit from HBCUs.
Now you should know, you did. You did go to law school, so you know you can.
I did go to law school. I should Northwestern, Yes, Northwestern Princeville Law School, right, So so to say to have a law firm say that to a client, which just shocking, you know. And so I've seen more coaching. I'm doing more individual coaching, and of course right now I'm promoting my book and I'm doing that kind of work.
But I would say overall, there's definitely been a depression in the market for the work, which is unfortunate because my work is also about cross cultural communication, how we communicate better in the workplace across our differences. My work is also about business strategy. I worked with a top consumer brand company, UH to figure out how to have a blow dryer that's more accessible. That's that's more money, you know, more market share. So it's unfortunate that this
kind of chilling. You are definitely seeing it. But then again, like I said, I'm in a state where we'll probably see it less because we have a lot more state level protection and desire to continue in this work.
Is that is that where it happens. Does it happen at the state level, because it's it's getting at the federal level. We know what's happening. So is this going to be up to the states.
Well, I think partly the states create that fear. And you know in Texas, Texas itself is enacting its own laws and then the federal so that's creating a lot more of that you know, fear tunnel of fear. But I would say that states will try and it sounds like this administration no longer believes in states rights when it comes to certain things, and so consequently states may have to go to court for their ability. And I also think corporations are going to have to put on
their big boy and big girl pants. Citizens Juanita has given them a roadmap, now, you know, Citizens Unita as a case just in the very simple explanation holds that corporations have the ability to have political speech. And I would say that attempts to prevent a corporation from engaging in diversity, equity inclusion work, which which we can define multiple ways, puts them at a market disadvantage both locally
and internationally. And so I actually think corporations are going to have to put their big boy and big girl pants on and take some of these issues to the mat. There is no world where DEI mandated hiring of unqualified people. That is a myth, that's the same myth that came
with affirmative action. What it says is how can we make sure and the EEO supports this, the Equal Employment Opportunity Acts of courts, This is how can we make sure that we are reflecting our communities, that we are recruiting, and that we are making opportunities for advancement that is
currently all legal. None of that is illegal, and so corporations need to lean into that, and they need to be willing to push back because if after DEI, what's next, what's next with the overreach into what you do as a corporation.
Hey, one last question, Cherry. Since you are working with companies so you have some front seat to what they are actually doing. Are you finding your services more in demand than ever before? And are you seeing some fear though in the corporate community about policies that might get the attention of the White House.
Yeah, definitely seeing fear, I think. And that's that's the whole purpose is to create this fear based situation where and I hate to use phrase, but comply in advance right, But it's to create a fear based situation where people and again it's not the law. The law has the affirmative action in the workplace's not outlawed. The Supreme Court decision in Harvard is a very specific, narrow decision related to admissions in colleges. It's going to take a separate
Supreme Court decision should it come regarding workplace. So yes, a lot of fear, a lot of questions about lang which what language can you use? What can you say? What can you not say? And like I said, I find myself countering some of the supposed guidance people are getting from a law firms and lawyers who should know better. But lawyers do tend to be very conservative, so they're again trying to get people to comply in advance. But in this case, I just urge companies not to do
this because this is not just a moral issue. It's also a business issue. And you know this is the target is seeing that other companies are seeing that.
All right, we have to leave it there. I'm glad we could get some time with you. Obviously a very relevant conversation topic in our environment. Sary, Thank you so much. Sary Dunn, diversity, equity and Inclusion leader at ITBOM Training and Consulting. Her new book is called Qualified How competency checking and race collide at work.