We want to get to another edition of Business Week Talks. John Mackie is CEO and co founder of Whole Foods Market. Prior to that, co CEO of the company. He founded Whole Foods once on its own. Now it's in its third year as part of Amazon. And John's got a new book out released today. It's Conscious Leadership, Elevating Humanity through Business. And John joined us on the phone from Austin, Texas, and I've got to say, your book, Conscious Capitalism, it's
on my bookshelf. It's signed by you. It was back at the street y. I think it was a conversation you had with Norm Pearlstein, who was our head of content at Bloomberg for several years. So in front of human people, probably front of human people, not virtually. John, So delighted to have you here with us. How are you, I I'm very well. I've heard so often people having my book on their bookshelves, but a lot less of that people actually read it. Okay, okay, we read it.
I read it, the family did. But but so tell us a little bit about how you're doing it in the pandemic. You know, this pandemic has been obviously extremely difficult for pretty much everybody. Right, it'sies the weirdest year of my life. I don't know about you, but it's definitely the wordest year. And I mean Whole Feeg has done a lot better than other businesses because we weren't we weren't shut down, we were an essential business, and we saw our sales go up and our online sales
went way up. But it's been incredibly stressful in the company. Made no mistake about that. People don't lose their jobs, but it's been we have we've had to go to mask for everybody's wearing mask and we've had we haven't been able to connect with the team members as much because you know, lockdown, not traveling, not being able to visit the stores. A lot of safety measures been put in place. Um it's been you know, we just did a cultural compass survey and we see that it's been
very stressful in the team members. So that has been a challenge for us, but again less of a challenge for Whole Foods and many like a restaurant owner who's more or less been put out of business, So very very difficult times. And I will tell you I am very much looking forward to COVID being done when that will be, but it'll be I'm gonna be celebrating along
with everybody else, that's for sure. So John, I guess on the subject of your book and sort of synthesizing all of this, what's the key leadership lesson uh coming through this? And we're not through it yet by any stretch. But what have you learned about leading? What have you learned about how to lead? Uh in a situation like this? You mean in COVID. In COVIDH gosh, I mean, COVID is a great example of, uh, how you can learn
and grow in a crisis. In a crisis, the general reaction people have when there in crisis to sort of look for a safe place, a safe harbor, someplace that uh they they're not going to be um safe. But one thing I've learned is that in crisis, that's a great opportunity to learn and grow and you have to lean into it. You have to kind of instead of going back to a safe place, you've got to open wider to see what lessons are there, and you have
to face your fears and Uh. One of the things that I learned is that Whole Foods has a very deep culture because we we've been making cultural deposits for a long time, and but during COVID we've been making a lot of cultural withdrawals. But we're not bankrupt because
we've got so many deposits that have been made. However, as COVID goes on longer and longer and we're not able to make more deposits and and connecting with people, I just you know, I mean, a company is ultimately about relationships and about trust and about partnership, and the hardest thing in COVID, I think has been the difficulty, other than virtually to connect with people. And uh we we we read all about people working at home and and a lot of corporations are not going to go
back fully, but I don't believe that. I mean, more people may work at home when COVID's over, But in reality, if you're going to maintain a culture, you have to have people connecting with each other, and there's no real substitute for doing that in person. So I've learned that culture is resilient, but I've also learned that it's we we need, we need that personal connection to No. I
think you were right about that, you know, Jason. I've had John so many different conversations because we're seeing, certainly the financial community it seems like really stepping up and really kind of urging their teams to come back to work in New York City. But I think it's a comfort level and people are just not comfortable. And it's not that people don't want to be working with colleagues. Um, we're social creatures. But I think there is a fear. I mean we for most of us, right, we have
never seen something like this. It's true, Um, and maybe people won't be comfortable until we have vaccination that people feel safe and taking. But in truth, I think the concept of herd immunities it's beginning to work its way through the United States. It's worked its way through Sweden at this point. If you look at their recent death rates, there's just a few people a week now, not not not hundreds or thousands of people a days, three or four a week. So we're going to get through this,
and probably a lot sooner than people think. I'd be very surprised if a year from now we have not returned to semi normalcy and people will be afraid. But as their friends go out and report back. Hey, it's safe out there, nobody's people aren't getting sick, and and people will start to tentatively venture out, probably being wearing masks more. But uh, that might be a while before people are completely back, but they will be because we
are who we are. We're social creatures. And you know, I remember, I'm old enough to remember I had lots of friends, not lots. I had a few friends back in elementary school. They got polio. Um, I want to ask you, John, I mean, here we are a few years in. You know with Amazon, how's it going? What? What has worked really well for you? It's going very well. A big merger between two big companies is a little
bit like a marriage. I like that metaphor. And I mean I've been married for thirty years, and I I wet my wife and I love, you know, maybe of everything about her, and I'm not too fond of And I think a merger similar. I mean, Amazon has a different culture than Whole Foods. We overlap in some areas, and uh, we love most things about Amazon, and they probably love most things about Whole Goods, but you know,
not everything. And and which worked really well is Amazon thinks long term and They're enabling whole foods market to think long term. We've had three major price reductions were beginning of fourth um. They're making investments in technology for Whole Foods that I think will be transformative, although I'm sorry I can't talk about those. And they've been respectful of our culture. They haven't tried to just turn us
into Amazon. So if I that the best way to ask that question is, is John, if you could do it all over again when you make the same decision and the answers, yes, we make the same decision. It was the right decision for us. I have to tell you. A listener is writing in and said, could you just ask John Mackie, could they please please please open the Whole Foods in the Hampton's in the Hampton's. Yeah, We've
We've received a lot of requests for that. It's it's a very seasonal sort of market out there, and we'll get there eventually. He got that that the question answered, well, one day able to ask you. I think our team was was curious about is you guys Whole Foods. I spent a couple I spent I did kind of a deep dive into your company A few years ago and with Walter rob who was co CEO at the time.
I spent time with a forager just how you guys work with companies, support companies to help them build out either production, you know, so that they can you know, once you find an item that you want in your stories. You guys have such a value system, you know, and and you really stick to selling just certain types of things. And to be fair, if you go on Amazon, you can buy just about anything, um it feels like and that they'll sell just about anything to anyone. You know.
How have those values clashed if at all? You know? And how do you kind of get your head around that. I don't think they'll tell you half clashed And I think you're right. Health Foods is we're very um, you know, we're very stakeholder oriented. We care deeply about our suppliers. Were partnered with them, and we are proud of the fact that we were work with lots of small producers and help them get distribution, and a lot of them
grow with us over time. And they start out with one store, and then one region, and then multiple regions and then across the whole country and and then maybe they sell their company or or take a public I mean a great example recently was Vital Farms. Eggs Whole Fus was the first customer Vital Farms ever had, and we we made it over time. I had a ten million dollar investment in their company as well, and they just did an I P O and there and their
market capitalizations one point four billion dollars right now. So it's that's a great example of working with a small supplier and helping them expand across the country and eventually they've become a very very successful company in their own right. We prode we pride ourselves on that. There's there's really dozens and dozens and dozens of similar examples like that.
And Amazon, you know, it's a different business and one wholefully just doing They're there the retailer, they're the everything is or as you say, I if I want something, I generally just go to my iPhone or my iPad or my computer and I just call up Amazon, I order it, uh and it comes shows up usually within twenty four hours. So that's an amazing thing Amazon does. It It's changed most people's lives. It certainly has changed
my life. That's very different than what the whole Food is doing, but Whole Foods is you know, Amazon wants to be a bigger force in grocery and the Whole food is key to helping them do that. So I think that's why they ultimately wanted to acquire us. So, John, you know, you're very thoughtful in your books, and and this recent one is no example. I mean, I do
wonder what's ahead for you. There's been a lot of speculation that you know, you could go on and keep writing books, and you've executed this great, as you say, new marriage between these two companies. And I'm only going to give you about ninety seconds in this question, But what's next it? Do you foresee that that maybe hand over the rain soon? You know? I like to think I read recently Warn Buffett. I read that Warren Buffett, he's he's his. Of Warren Buffett's wealth has been generated
after the age of sixty. I would like to think that of my contribution in the world will be generated after I'm sixty five. That's my that's my goal. So I don't have any plans on leaving anytime soon from Whole Foods. But hey, you know, I'm getting older. We all we all have to pass from the scene. Eventually, I know I'm there are many other things. I'm a very much a doer. I have many projects in life I want to work on. I want to travel, I want to hike, and has been more time with my wife.
I want to send more time with friends. But right now I'm having the time of my life and this whole Food's adventure. So I'm gonna keep doing that and until it's my inner heart my voice says, hey, John, it's time to move on. And that's not that will come someday, but it's not today. Al Right, Well, we appreciate the time. Congratulations on the book. You're always so thoughtful, um, and that really shows up and in all of your work, whether you're in one of your stores or reading your
books or listening to you talk. So we really appreciate the time.