Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - September 16, 2022

it's been for much of the year, inflation. The latest print released on Tuesday showed consumer prices once again coming in hotter than expected. Well, stocks tumbled following that report, the most since we're likely to see another big interest rate high two from the Federal Reserve this coming week. So all of that Tim on investor's mind. Yeah, Well, I've ahead We've got the perfect guest to help us

understand the data. Legendary investor David Rubinstein gives us tips for tough times and a lesson or two from his new book. He's seen a few cycles in any time. Yeah, he knows a thing or two about investing. Absolutely. Plus, we've got a be in Beth's chief marketing officer on how the Brewing Giant is staying connected with consumers amid an uncertain market outlook. And our Business Week cover story on a Chinese spy and some not so encrypted evidence

on his phone. It's amazing story. First up this hour, though, look at how surging borrowing costs are rippling through a critical economics sector, the housing market, both here at home and abroad. It was the subject of a Bloomberg Big Take from this past week. Major cities around the globe that had been seeing real estate boom are now facing

a painful reset. To find out just how grim the picture looks, Bloomberg Market Senior editor Mike Reagan and I caught up with our San Francisco bureau chief, Carol Wetzel. The markets that were really in focus on are the ones that have been hugely bubbly black of the bettle word over the past few years of the pandemic boom. This is Australia, New Zealand, Canada, where investing in real estate just became a huge phenomenon. You know, you've seen

price gains of plus per year. Not apparently, those are the ones that suddenly are rapidly cooling because now that we have this synchronized interest rates from central banks around

the world. Borrowing costs are going up everywhere, and you have this combination of now prices were at record levels and borrowing costs are now just way out of people's reach, so they're having the quickest come down now, you know, Kara, when I read about potential double digit home price declines, I kind of have a nasty flashback to, uh, you know about twelve thirteen years ago and the financial crisis. I mean, you covered that, right, and if you're like,

get get chills up the spot a little bit. But I'm wondering. I mean, there's so much has been done in the US to safeguard the financial system, and we've really moved away from those adjustable rate mortgages in the US that we're part of the problem back then. But I get the impression the rest of the world is still more exposed to adjustable rate mortgages than we are in the US. Is that true? And are there concerns out there about some sort of ripple effects from a

drop in property values into the global financial system. Yes, that's absolutely true. So the US has vastly come away from addressable rate mortgages in the aftermath of the financial crisis. It's it's been about um seven percent is average of loans are in the past five years. And it makes sense because rates have been so low, why would you

not just lock in those rates. But the US is actually something I've just found and working on this story, is pretty unique in terms of having thirty year fixed mortgages or even fixed here that a lot of these countries they are just the mortgage system works by they have mortgages that may reset every year depending on you know, what central banks do, or they may even reset just based monthly or just you know, just be directly tied.

So that is definitely sort of what some of the concern is in some of these markets, like in New Zealand for instance, more than fifty of mortgages are going to reset to a higher rate UM by next June. So yes, so these are it's not just you know, home buyers that are affected by the rising rates UM as it largely is here in the U S. It's also homeowners who now are going to be facing higher monthly payments on loans in some cases if they bought

you know, at very high levels. Probably we're already stretching to make, you know, to pay for these things. And so yes, ripple effects of consumer spending and other other types of things for these economies. So that's something you know, again as a central banker's way, how much to race

rates and the effects on the broader economy. That's something I think those bankers have to keep in mind there, Kara, is there any silver lining here with with with this sort of coming down from from these sky high prices? And I asked this question fully realizing that we're in an environment where interest rates are higher. So you know, even if houses become more quote unquote affordable, that monthly payment could be even higher than it was for a

more expensive house because of interest rates. Yes it could. But yes, this liver lining is that I think you know, we've all been witnessed to this real estate frenzy. I mean in the US as well, where you know, you're bidding wars and you have to fight you know, fifteen other offers to get at home and that's not healthy either, and so slowing that down and that's um, you know, not necessarily a problem, and it kind of puts us

back toward normalization. And yes, if home prices do come down a bit, you know, if you're a homeowner, you're still sitting on a fair amount of equity. Prices have gone so much it's hard to cry too many tears for like, oh, um, you know my house gained twenty percent a year, is now only up ten percent from that figure. You're still you know, you're still doing okay. So maybe this provides an opportunity for you know, a bit of a cool down in the market in the stabilization.

I'm fascinating in the story Care that it says New Zealand was really the poster child of the pandemic housing boom. What's going on there? Is it just a matter of the lowest interest rates? We're people flocking to New Zealand in the pandemic? Have you seen those pictures? The rest of my life, I'm willing to flock there personally, it's

part of it. I think it's just becomes a cultural thing that this is where people see they can build their wealth and um, it's it's a big investment play, and like it's just the culture of you know, you need to be a homeowner, and so everybody, um flock to it and it it kind of builds on itself. I think a similar thing happened in Canada. It's just um, you know, where people see the ability to build wealth that you need to buy a house and and so that extreme and and again and yes, and then this

colliding at a time of low rates. Obviously the pandemic caused a lot of people to rethink how they're living and they need a bigger house, to work from home, and that type of thing. It was a bit of a you know, all these issues colliding. That was Bloomberg News San Francisco Bureau Chief Carol Wetzel with Mike Reagan and me coming up the origin story of the world's biggest video platform, how it came to be, its impact also on the concept of free speech on the internet.

We are talking YouTube. Are in Mark Bergen details YouTube's rise to world domination and its plans to hold down the top spot in streaming for years to count. And he's got a brand new book on it. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg. It's not just about cat videos, you know, it isn't. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stenovik from Bloomberg Radio YouTube. It's ubiquitous. We all check

it out regularly. Tim and I and our Bloomberg Business Week show We're on it every day. And a new book tells the inside story of YouTube and how it up ended media, culture, industry and democracy. Bloomberg News technology reporter Mark Bergen is out with a new book on the world's premier video platform. The book is called Like Comments Subscribe, Inside YouTube's chaotic rise to world domination, and Mark says it's unparalleled success is about much more than

being at the right place at the right time. They made some really important decisions early on, and as a startup, they only existed for about eighteen months before Google swept in and pay them for for cool one point six billion. The basic feature set of YouTube is pretty much the same as it was seventeen years ago. It is simple as intuitive. The founders talked about building something that their

mom could use, and they certainly succeeded. They were one of the first digital video sites to building a feature where they could embed in other websites and players, which was pretty revolutionary at the time. They also took some risks that bigger companies including Google and Microsoft wouldn't take. Around copyright which ended up paying off for them that

got them into like big messy legal challenges. So I think there was a lot of key decisions they made, and then it was like this this moment where there was just an explosion in interest and homemade video, and clearly video was just moving to the Internet. I think what's what's so interesting about this is, you know, in the early days of YouTube, there was this reluctance coming from media companies to work with it. It was kind of seen as like this disruptor that they were really

scared of. And now what you have is you have the large established media organizations using YouTube as a channel for for distribution. Mark, can you talk a little bit about how they sort of turned from enemies to I guess for enemies and now kind of like everybody needs to be on YouTube. It was a long battle. I mean, they're early These teams at YouTube were very focused on getting traditional media to come onto the platform, and part of that was a concern that this was the only

way they were going to have commercial success. That they went out and they tried to cut deals with CBS and ABC and got pretty close with both of them, like to run lost wast like the biggest show and one of the biggest shows in America at the time on YouTube. A lot of those companies instead went and they formed Hulu or they eventually built their own streaming services. Disney is a good example, was reluctant to put its

prized I p onto YouTube. Still to this day, you're not going to find like they're they're going on Disney, plus they're going in movie theaters. To your point, audience was there sort of since day one, and it's been sustainable.

YouTube put in place rights management system that's basically if, if you know, even if someone else uploads a piece of Disney content, Disney gets the money from the ad revenue, and that was a pretty key decision that they made, and that helped persuade the record labels and traditional media to come on. YouTube was at one point competing with them like they started a few years go, and originals

building and subscriber only shows. They've dropped that. They're like, we're content to be the sort of video advertising platform and let Disney, Netflix, Amazon battle it out for subscribers. And you've seen media companies being more comfortable with them since. But this is what's so weird. I remember a few years ago when YouTube did this, I forget what it was called. It started off as YouTube Read, which is

a very clumsy name. But Cobra Kai was was like one of the shows that they talked about a lot, and nobody watched it when it was on YouTube, but then it went to another platform and now everybody talks

about it. You know, YouTube part of Google. They have gobs of money, they're alphabet But at the same time, like more recently we reported on this a lot for Bloomberg, like they have been cutting back on spending and I think the originals program that launched Cobra Kai was sometimes in tension with the other goals of the platform, which is just scale will get a lot of people out of watch hours. You can make an argument that had they invested more resources into original content, they could be

cranking out more of the cobra kais. Google as a company just doesn't do media programming, and they went out with the original plan was we're going to not just have Cobra Kai, but we're gonna have our biggest YouTube stars and these shows and then they're some of their biggest YouTube stars went out and did like deeply irresponsible things that got them in trouble with advertisers and politicians, and I think that was a contributing factor to maybe

maybe we can't take these risks. For years, YouTube had been scolded for giving a platform to radical Islamists, and I do think about the political side of this and the controversy, and this gets to what is YouTube Visit a media company, you know, a media arm of Google. But but talk to us about some of the controversy that has erupted over the years, especially as YouTube has become, you know, so ubiquitous. Yeah, it's at the Macaca moment is what it was called. And it was a Senate

race in Virginia. Yeah, candidate was said something deeply racist on camera that spread. It was one of the early first YouTube political viral hits, and it changed the race. I think leaning in you know, I talked the book talks about the Arab Spring, which was a very different time for social media companies when they were seen as toppling dictators. Right. YouTube did at the time invest in a partnership around verifying footage coming out of the Middle

East in the Arab world. For a variety of reasons that the company's d n A their risk averse. They didn't want to get into legal trouble. They were more hands off on taking editorial approach, especially on politics. And then fast forward to the Trump era, they've been extremely

cautious this politics. It is effectively radioactive for YouTube. Um, you know they they answer that Susan Wiski, the CEO IS, has talked about is that news and politics is a relatively small percentage of platform, which in some ways it is true. Right, you go look at YouTube, it is gaming, it is beauty, kids content, write music videos. You know, you've reported on this company, you know for a long time.

What surprised your what came to light that you were like, wow, I didn't know that I was Well, some of the early success was actually, um, the YouTube their early success was based on myces, which is really funny now if we think about my space is the tom That was

kind of surprising to me. Yeah, the you know, YouTube is they built the world's biggest kids entertainment platform and it's a multimillion billion dollar business now right, and they're like huge conglomerate companies coming out of Hollywood that are just around YouTube kids content. What surprised me was the extent to which the company had turned a blind eye of that and really didn't expect that to happen, and for a long time didn't know how to deal with that.

And I think just in the past recent years, after they've been regulated and and a lot of attention to focus on that, they're finally turning to, Wow, we we have some responsibility here with where we're raising the entire generation of kids. Hey, Mark, what is the future of of YouTube look like? What do we expect them to do to try to compete with TikTok, certainly leading in on shorts, they have plans to I believe by the end of the year turn on modernization and commercials for

YouTube shorts. And I think you know, you talked to creators and they're really jazzed about TikTok. TikTok is a is a play where they can break through to an audience. YouTube is very crowded. Now that being said almost consistently, it's like, well, I can I can have fun, that can experiment on TikTok, I can preach a big audience.

I really make money on YouTube. And so I think once YouTube is able to turn on that flip that switch, it's it's going to have a bigger competitive advantage against TikTok and against Facebook, which has never really figured out how to monetize Um creators in that way. YouTube is also they're They're big focus is still like eating into the television market. We will see them increasingly try to take more capture more time on on big screens. That

was Bloomberg News technology reporter Mark Bergen. Pick up a copy of his new book, Like Comments Subscribe Inside YouTube's chaotic rise to world domination still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week. Ethereum, one of the world's most popular crypto networks and its makeover. A breakdown of the so called Ethereum merge and why

it could shake up the crypto universe. This is Bloomberg Front nesting from the financial capital of the world Bloomberg eleven Frio in New York to Washington, d C. Bloomberg to Boston, Bloomberg one oh six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine sixty to the country Sirius XM Chado one nine team and around the globe the Bloomberg Business app and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is Bloomberg Business Week.

This week, the Ethereum network finalized a shift known as the merge, adopting a new mechanism for creating tokens and ordering transactions. The network runs Ether, the world's second most valuable digital currency. The merge drastically lowers Ethereum's energy use and could silence the critics who doubt the sustainability of

blockchain technology due to its environmental impact. It will also make Ether look more like a traditional financial asset that pays interest, which could be more lucrative, at least for some mainstream investors. In the finance section of the magazine this week, crypto reporter Ogakreif breaks down the overhaul, what it means for crypto minors, and why the rest of us should care. She spoke with Tim Mike Regan and Bloomberg Business wee getitor Joe Weber before the merge took place.

This kind of a change has never been attempted in the blockchain world before, and what it does is essentially until now and for the next day or so, miners, basically very powerful computers are the ones ordering transactions on the Ethereum blockchain, and then after that there will be a switch to proof of stake essentially stakes of coins. Will be used to do the same to order transactions. And of course what this means for miners is that

they will be out of the job. And miners have been looking around to see which other changes they could potentially move their equipment to or what other options they have. And for Ethereum, what this will mean is that um power consumption of the blockchain will drop by about which is really good news for invest stars and and developers who have been deterred from participating in the theorym ecosystem

because of its high energy consumption. You know, companies and investors who have s G requirements can now perhaps give ethereum a second look. But what I'm fascinated with is the other innovation that this sort of unlocks, which is staking coins in return for your yield. You know, you lock up your ether uh in a staking protocol and you get, say, I don't know, three or four or five percent whatever the yield is. Obviously, that makes Ether look a lot more like a security than just a

cryptocurrency like bitcoin. I wonder, how are you thinking about the regulators? Is there the potential for a backlash? Absolutely, this is an issue that a lot of people are thinking about and worrying about. Because so about twenty eighteen, high up executive at the SEC essentially said, you know, ethereum does not look like a security to us, and so that was the assumption to everybody ever since. But

now Etherium is undergoing some very dramatic changes. Right now people are going to be essentially putting in money to earn yield. That brings ethereum just a little bit closer to appearing to at least one point of about four that regulators look at the determine if something is a security or not. There are also questions about does the theem become more or less decentralized after this change, which also impacts whether it will be defined as a security

or not. So there could be some moves from regulators on this front, and in fact, in August, coin Base, the US's biggest scripto exchange, did disclose that the SEC has asked for some information from it on it's taking services. Someone out that things, okay, so this has never happened before, it's going to happen. If it doesn't go, well, can you just put it in reverse and back up and

like go back to the way it was before. Well, there are some people who are creating an alternative chain in hopes that the merge does not go well, and then people will be like, wait a minute, we want to go back to the previous block chains. There are people who are creating a copy of Etherium that will still use minors, but the majority of the Ethereum community is going ahead with this new proof of state blockchain. It's been tested and retested for years. Okay, and what

does this all mean for bitcoin? And there's this thing called the flippening right, so some people believe that this puts Etherium more head to head in competition with Bitcoin, which, of course crypto fans have long cold digital gold. With Ethereum undergoing this transition, perhaps it's going to become more more attractive for corporate treasuries and for hedge funds and

for other investors that have only invested in bitcoins. There is a potential for something that crypto fans called the flippenine, which is basically the Etherium market cap exceeding bitcoins. Likely quite a bit of time before that occurs. This is a story that we're going to continue to follow really closely in our big Thanks to Bloomberg News crypto reporter Olga Karif, Joe Weber and Mike Reagan. We'll be back a little later in the program. You're listening to Bloomberg

Business Week. Up next, Carlisle Group co founder David Rubinstein breaks down his new book on stock trading, Tips from the best in the business and what to make of global markets right now. Good luck with that one. I mean, he's got to talk to about this. Yeah, exactly, Stick around. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with

Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. Well, on Tuesday, US docks posted their biggest drop in two years after that latest CPI reports, surprise to the up side the silver lining, though, maybe it is a good time for savvy investors to buy the dip. At least that's what David Rubens died told our Bloomberg TV colleagues

the day after that massive sell off. His comments got a lot of play online, because, well, after all, who doesn't want investing tips from some of the best in the biz. Luckily for us, he's back with more. The Carlisle Group co founder, he's well known to our audience. He's the host of Bloomberg Wealth and the author of numerous books. His latest one is just out. It's called How to Invest Masters on the Craft and Tim. We spoke with David about a lot of things, including that

new book. We began though, with his thoughts on how to navigate a volatile market environment. Clearly the markets are not happy with the higher inflation numbers, and I think that's a big actor. When you have higher inflation, you can expect higher interest rates, and the Fed is next week like the increase interest rates by seventy five basis points. There's some who think it could be a hundred basis points,

but I doubt that that that that would happen. That would probably really hurt the markets much more because that would show the FT is much more nervous about inflation than it has said it is, although it has said it's it's worried. But I think a hundred basis points will be much more than their guidance has been. So if they were to do a hundred basis points and market will really sell off. In my view, seventy five basis points and markets already assuming that's going to happen,

so probably not a big surprise of the markets. So I think markets are gonna be choppy for a while, There's no doubt about it. Shoppy, but you still think there are opportunities, especially when we see the equity side of the markets. David sell Off that that is a time to enter you You stand by that the greatest more fortunes in the stock market are generally not made when people see a top of the market and they say,

now I'm going to get in. Generally markets are down, and then what happens is people say, I think it could go down further, and they try to look for the bottom of the market. Anybody that's looking for the top of the market or the bottom of the market generally is on a fool's Errand so markets are shares her off now what more than from the peak, and that's a pretty good downside. It could go down a little bit more, but I don't see another twenty percent down.

I think the markets are pretty much near the bottom. They might be five percent more to go, or maybe a little bit more. But I think we know a lot of what's going on in the markets now and not likely to see big changes now. The Ukraine Russia situation has had some positive news, maybe that war could be over sooner than we once thought. Now. Um, generally the inflation situation not under control, but the FED seems to be on top of the situation, maybe more than

it was before. So I'm not expecting we're going to see another decline in stock prices. But would you con see that it's safe to say that we really don't know kind of how things go on the other side of it. Considering the pandemic that we're coming out of, the amount of stimulus that was pumped in to the globally economy, is it safe to say we don't quite

really know how this all plays out. Um. This is what lawyers often call a case of first impression, which is to say, we have something that's relatively unique in the sense that we haven't had five trillion dollars injected into an economy quite the way the federal government did, and then know what the impact is going to be an inflation in the markets a year or two later. We did prevent it recession, but we also gave us

a lot of inflation. Um. If you go back at any time in market history, you'll always fullfind that there are problems. There's never a case where people say, you know, everything is looking great and actually turns out to be great. You know, the challenges of getting people back to work, the challenges of avoiding another COVID type pandemic, the challenge of the U. S. China relationship, the challenge of the Russian situation, the energy situation, money challenges. But that's what

makes great investors great. They can see through the challenges and get in when they going is good. Is there any concern Do you have any concern that the FED could overdo it? Well? Of course the FED didn't make a mistake that it admitted it thought the inflation was was going to transitory. Obviously was not j Pal who used to work at my firm, and I've known him for a long time, though I'm obviously not getting inside information from him now. I think he's a very cautious person.

He likes to tell you what he's going to do, and they'd like to then do it. Um He's pretty much said, I'm gonna go the Fed's gonna FOMC is gonna go up by seventy five basis points. I think if they were going to go a hundred basis points or more, I think they would have tipped the markets a bit. A hundred basis points or more now would shock the markets, and I think it would be uh, something that would see a big sell off in stock. So I don't see that being tipped from the FED.

And obviously he doesn't control what the FMC does, but he has an enormous amount of influence. So I suspect um will be something around seventy five basis points. The real change is whether we will have another fifty basis points increase the remainder of the year, which is what the markets have assumed, or could it be the case that we get more than fifty basis points or the remainder of the year. And then, of course, right now the markets are generally assuming probably not any real increases

early next year, and who knows that could change? All right, So let's talk about the book How to invest Masters on the Craft Uh, And I do wonder, you know, David, generally successful investors it's because of their differences they find opportunities where others do not. So at the same time, I wonder, is there's something that successful investors all have in common. Yes, they have these things in common. They tend to come from blue collar and middle class families.

They don't come from very wealthy families. They tend to be pretty good students. These are not typically college dropouts or high school dropouts. As a general rule of thumb, they tend to be pretty good in math. They tend to like to make decisions. They tend not like to delegate. They tend to be people who will defy conventional wisdom. The conventional wisdom say now is not the time to

to invest. That's when they invest. They also tend to be relatively humble because they've made a lot of mistakes over the years. Every investor does. They also tend to get rid of their mistakes pretty quickly. A really good investor when they when he or she makes a mistake, they don't labor over it for months and months and months and still about it. They get out of the position and they go into the next thing. They also

tend to be i'd say relatively philanthropic. Clearly, if you're if you're in the business world and you're an investor, as opposed to be in the endowment world or nonprofit world, you tend to make a lot of money as investors, and they tend to give away a large percentage of it. Generally, these are people who are quite articulate, quite smart, and quite hard working. We're hard work is not a problem for them because what they do is what they love.

Investing is not for them work, It's it's pleasure. And once they've made whatever they need to make a billion dollars, two billion, ten billions, twenty billion dollars, they don't stop working. They work until they just can't do it anymore. They don't tend to retire at fifty five or sixty. Some of the names on here, I mean this is a who's who of the of the Wall Street world and also Silicon Value. When it comes to alternatives, I mean we're talking people like Larry Fink, John Gray, Sam Zell

are featured in here, rate Dahio. When it comes to hedge funds, we got John Poulson on hedge funds, Mark Injuries. And when it comes to venture capital, I want to go back to what you said about mistakes though, What are some prominent mistakes that you learned about when you were doing reporting for this book. Well, of course, um, every investor has his or her stories of their mistakes, and I wouldn't put myself in the great investor category,

but I turned down Facebook when Mark Zuckerberg was in college. UM, I basically didn't. I told Jeff Bezos his company wasn't gonna get anywhere, and I sold his stock relatively early, right at the I P O. When Mark Andreeson came to my firm to try to raise money at the beginning for Netscape, I told him it would never get anywhere. I think every investor UM makes mistakes, and that's what

life is all about. I'm trying to think of the average investor out there, David, and I'm wondering what lessons they can take away from listening to the pros. The most common mistake that investors make, the pros would say, and I think I'm talking about average investors. If the book is not designed to make you into sam's Ow or John Gray, that's unrealistic. On the book is going to do that, but it's designed for people who are average investors who dabble in the market, or they buy

funds and they have other people dabbling for them. And if back, I would say that the cost common mistake that people point out to me is that people when the markets are going up, they rush in and they want to catch it at the top, and then when the markets are going down, they want to sell. So you got to be very careful and I think know what you're doing. Also, one of the advantages of of of being a value investor in a long term investor's Warren Buffett is they tend not to sell a lot.

And when you sell a lot or you buy a lot, you have a lot of transaction costs and you have to pay taxes, and that's an important thing. People should hold on the things for quite a bit longer than than they tend to. David. The people you spoke with, um again really interesting names. But can I just says a lot of men. There's a lot of men. Well, um, there are a lot of women too. I would say. Obviously it's easy to do a book like that and fill up with old white men. I tried hard not

to do that. Um. I have in there, for example, Kim lou who is the woman that runs the endownment for Columbia University. Are really impressive investor. Also was in there Paula Blin, who runs the endownment for Rockefeller University. But I tried to show is that there are women and minorities who are moving up into the pantheon of great investors. But let's be honest, today there are more white male people who are considered great investors than women,

rightly or wrong, and it may change in time. And in part what I wanted to do is inspire people who are not white males to go into this business and see that you can become Paula Balin or Kimlu.

I want to ask David about crypto because you know, in the alternative section Mike nova Gradson, who's the name very familiar to our audience, UM, but also somebody who has you know, dabbled just in traditional finance trad FI as it's known, and also in defy with when it comes to crypto, your thoughts after interviewing him for this book and about whether or not the crypto actually has staying power because he did make a lot of money and also recently lost a lot of money when it

comes to crypto. Yes, well, overall, he's ahead my own view on crypto, and I don't own crypto currencies myself, Like I have invested in companies that service the industry because I think the industry is gonna be around for quite a while. The people that buy crypto tend to be younger people, and I think they like it in part because they can trade it frequently, of course, but it has fluctuations which makes them think they're going to make money and they're willing to take the risk about

it going down. But also they the privacy associated with it. You don't dependent on nobody else knows what you really own. The government can't take it away from you. And I also think that people that are buying it to a large extent are they tend to be very libertarian in

many ways. They want to be countered to the government, and they've lobbied Congress and I've had a lot of uh, there are a lot of members of Congress who are Republicans who are listening to what they're saying, and I think it's unlikely you're gonna see a lot of over regulation. That's Carlisle Group co founder David Rubinstein. Check out his new book. It is entitled How to Invest Masters on the Craft. It is out now. And that wraps up the first hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business

Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol Masser and I'm Tim Stentivic ahead in our next hour. Our Business Week cover story how the FBI built its case against the Chinese spy using evidence from his iPhone. It all happens off of her phone, doesn't it? Oh my gosh. Plus how China is finding a way around slee tariffs with a little help from Mexico, and a look at the post COVID marketing strategy at the world's largest brewer. We sit down with the CMO of A B and BEV. This

is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine. Plus global business finance and tech news as it happened Sloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio. Blay ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including Yeah, We're doing some food and beer if. We've got the CEO of Upside Foods on how the company is growing

real meat directly from animal cells. We've also got the CMO of A B and BEV opening up a key strategic shift at the global brewer. Plus our Business Week team looks at how Chinese manufacturers are skirting U S tariffs by setting up south of the border. First up This Hour, this week's cover story, a Chinese intelligence officer targeted US industrial giants for a living and then left a heap of evidence on his phone, his iPhone, along

with his own personal secrets. Drake Bennett and Jordan Robertson co wrote that story Drake and Business we getitor Joe Webber taking us inside a spy's diary. Whenever you talk about China in US and in intellectual property and what companies have you know, there's always been this assumption and reporting has suggested that Chinese are really good at at spying, but we never really get a sense of what that

actually looks like. And so when Jordan and Drake came to just us with this story, the thing that just jumped out at us was it's all there in part because of this cotton mouse game that evolved that I'm sure Drake's gonna tell us about, and it ended up in court because the US was able to not only nab this Chinese spy and his phone, we got it all. We got all the info, and so Drake I mean, like, this is raster that you ran across, and I'm curious, just like when you saw it and Jordan's saw, how

did it pop to you guys? I mean, like you said, it's just an extraordinary opportunity because this is normally just a black box. You just see kind of the outgoing stuff where it's the companies that are being targeted or it's the people that are being targeted as potential sources, and you never get to see what goes on back

in China. And what happened with this guy is he was the first ever MSS officer to be lured out of China the Ministry of State Security, so it's basically Chinese government Chinese yeah intelligence, which is responsible not only for military and government intelligence, but you know economic and that's not exactly a secret. No, not a secret, not a secret. Um, we know what happens, we know a

lot less about what it looks like. So when this guy gets lured out through this very painstaking FBI investigation, he's arrested and he has his phone on him and he his iPhone on him and he has backed up everything not I mean just everything to the cloud. Um, so there's all this like sensitive MSS documents, correspondence between him and his colleagues, between him and his sources, and there's also just a lot of like really intimate personal

detail about himself. You know, he's he's someone I mean, you know, there's a lot of like his name is Juan John, you know, a lot there's some cloak and dagger stuff in the story, but a lot of it is also just the he's this espionage bureaucrat and he's sort of like you watch him get sort of like ground down by his job, and he gets more and more unhinged, and he's just spending all this time and like massage parlors and drunken card games, and I think

that may have you know, affected his decision making. Tell us about the expense account, right, So a lot of what they do is they're just handing people money, you know, three thousand dollars, six thousand dollars for your travel expenses or for whatever. But he one of his sort of gripes over time, and it gnaws at him more and more, is that his boss just keeps rejecting these expense accounts for these dinners he has to like recruit people, and it just really drives him nuts, and you because we

have his diary. He treated his eye calendar like a diary, so there's stuff about, you know, meeting with this person or doing this hack. And then it's just like my boss rejected the expenses again and he just like it clearly just burns him, which are just epic, you know.

So I just you just assume, like we take on the us anything you need, and it's like, actually it's yeah, the target that ends up being so much of the story is actually g E. Right, what was the spy going for and and tell us about how that played out. So it's g E jet engines and it's in particular it's these uh composite fan blade and casings for the

fan blades. So uh G Aviation is is still basically the only company that has these super lightweight fan blades and casings so their their engines can be lighter, UM, more fuel efficient, UM, safer uh and every and so basically this is a key technology UM that Drew had sort of focused on, and he sort of rise at this through these conversations with folks in the Chinese government, with folks at Stayed owned aircraft aeronautics companies um in China,

and so that's what. So he, through this intermediary, through this academic basically a university official, reaches out to this engineer at the aviation, you know, through LinkedIn, invites him to come give this talk, and then it sort of begins.

Um What he doesn't realize is that midway through this process, the FBI sort of intervenes um and starts investigating um his his potential source at the aviation, who then not to spoil the end of the story, but who ends up being instrumental in in the investigation to then turn around and and trap um U himself. Our producer said, one of the stupidest or dumbest spies ever just got stop. I think that was one of the most interesting takeaways from this is like the idea that people have in

their heads of a James Bond type figure. What is the life of a spy? Yeah, I mean he's a bureaucrat. He's an espionage bureaucrat. You know, he's a cog in this big machine. You know, in certain ways, I think he he you know, he has a lot of power back home and he sort of seems to abuse it

in certain ways. But he also has this boss that's on him all the time, you know, who's like constantly demanding these things that he feels like a really unreasonable um And so it's a bit of a grim existence in certain ways, and I think it sort of drives him a little around the bend. Now, Martinis, no, Aston, Martin's no, definitely not. Oh my goodness, we're saying, where is he now in jail? Oh, he's in jail in Ohio.

He's a winning sounding. That was Bloomberg News Technology reporter Drake Bennett, along with Business Week editor Joe Weber on this week's cover story. Check out the full story online on the Bloomberg or on newsstands. Coming up, Jiell Webber joins us again for another story in this week's magazine. It's about the haven for Chinese companies very close to the United States. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovik

from Bloomberg Radio. Well, this is one of those stories that we've come to love business Week four, one that taps into the big themes of our time, but may not be on your radar, but definitely should be. It's about a prime spot between Mexico's industrial capital and the US border that's become a haven for Chinese manufacturers looking to sidestep US tariffs and shortened supply chains. The story

was also a Bloomberg Big Take. This week, Bloomberg business Week editor Joel Webber is back with more, along with Business Week Global Economics editor Christina lynd Lad. China became very interested in sort of a side door to the U U S there and so we have seen an explosion of factories there and uh it is effectively a workaround of Trump's tariff policy, which the Biden administration is basically kept in place. Um. And so it's interesting about

that is that you know, you basically have gained the system. Uh. And so things going forward may not be manufactured in China as before you find some cheap real estate in other countries. Mexico is not the only version of this, but certainly the closest to the U S. UM. So

how's this, how's this working out? As uh as a little bit of arbitrage, Christina, Well, that's the globalization is always arbitrage, right, So I think when we interviewed companies that are based in one particular industrial park that we

focused on. They most of the Chinese firms preferred to emphasize the you know, proximity to the US market and this and this savings on shipping, but when pressed they admitted that, you know, for example, one furniture maker was facing taffs of twenty when they were shipping from China and now uh qualified for duty free shipments into the US.

What blew me away is how quickly they were able to do that, right, Like I always feel like when we're talking to CEOs and like, well the shift, you know, if we have to shift our production elsewhere, it's going to take a long time. I mean, they move pretty quickly, and it reminds us that they are still the manufacturer to the world. Yes, and I think some of these

companies are pretty I mean they're not all big. I mean one of the manufacturers is a really big manufactor in China, but like so they are nimble and they you know um. As a policy, China has been basically willing to shed kind of low margin manufacturing businesses as it you know, as it focuses on high end stuff like you know, new new fuel vehicles and biotechnology and semiconductors. So I think the first wave went to places like Vietnam.

But now you know, you can see, like, you know, businesses are moving for they're away, you know, from those comfort kind of locales where they first landed. And um, yeah, I mean I think what I thought it was kind of funny was that. Do you remember when Trump tweeted basically ordering American companies home, and I said, what came floating across like the Pacific or Chinese Chinese plants didn't exactly work that way. I don't know. It seems like there could be like a way for the US to

close this loophole. I mean, they know what these Chinese companies produce, and isn't there a way that they can say, Okay, well we know that it comes from a subsidiary of a Chinese company, and you're not sticking to the spirit of the rule. Um, we're going to attack on that tariff? Do they want to? Oh? I don't know. I mean that might cause issues with the U. S m c A right like the successor to NAFTA. I mean, I think Mexico would have legitimate reason to say what are

you doing? You know, as long as they meet the content requirements, which they are and to do that. I mean, we should be clear that this implies a certain amount of effort on the part of these Chinese companies because they're having to source products from Mexico, could be even North America. There they can't just import assemble everything from Chinese parts and shipping across. Yeah. The other thing to keep in mind here, you know, Belton Road is a

very top down initiative in China. This is not that this is just grassroots, grassroots effort by Chinese exporters to be like, how do we It's kind of simple, but it makes so much sense also, I mean, we talked to some companies that off the record explicitly said part of the reason we're doing this isn't just cost savings, is that there's political risk, I mean policy risk. Rather in China in recent years we've seen like crackdowns in tech and other sectors, and so, you know, so we

talked about the Mexico side of this too. Amlo being obviously, um the president of Mexico has been you know, very eager to try and get employment whatever there can be employment. How is this shaping out domestically for him? Well? The interesting thing is at the federal level, Mexico has never really actively courted Chinese investment because they see Chinese exporters

as rivals in third markets, right. So, but the state, at the state level, they like states have so Nueo Leon, which is where you know, this particular industrial park, and these are a lot of these companies are setting up shop. UM has has done and they're building a special road for example, from like you know, the from the industrial

park to the border. Uh. And so yeah, but I think that some people have said that Mexico might have actually seen even a bigger windfall of this kind of investment if am Low was being less nationalistic on topics like energy and you know and things like that. But I mean, this is great for Mexico, right, Like the number that really jumped out at me here is UH near shoring UH could boost Mexico's exports by three five billion year, a bit over seven percent. I mean, that's

like the real that's reformative. Yeah. Also, I mean while the Chinese investment, like like the most recent figures five million dollars a year is not huge, there is there are a couple of deals that could happen this year that would be transformative that that we're talking about billion dollar factories. One of them is there an e V engine maker that's looking at two different sites in Mexico.

And those kinds of investments pulls supply chains you know, around them, you know, So that kind of that kind of thing I think would take it to the next level. The suppliers that play into it. Hey, um, you guys point out in the story, though Chinese companies aren't the first to seek shelter from US terris right, Japan did.

It went back in the similar playbook when Reagan started layering all these different restrictions on Japanese cars, and then when NAFTA took effect, they saw, well, this is a great export platform now. But I think it's interesting, right in terms of the globalization conversations that we're having about what is going on. What I forgot about that we haven't talked about that forever. Well, I mean the way I think, well, we didn't use the word French shor freh. Yes,

that's when you go to friendly countries. That was Bloomberg business Week editor Joel Webber, along with Business Week Global Economics editor Christina Lyndblad still to come on Bloomberg Business Week, Beyond Meat and Impossible Foods are the key players in the race to market plant based meat alternatives, often with ingredients like p protein and soy. Going up next, you'll meet Upside. That's the company that's got a different approach.

They're actually growing meat. We take real animals, take themselves from those animals. We essentially select the ones that are going to taste the best and grow the best. When I first had my bite of cultivated meat, I can

tell you that's the moment when I really believe. Upsides Chief operating Officer Amy Chan explains on the other side, this is Bloomberg broadcasting from the financial capital of the world, Bloomberg eleven Frio in New York to Washington, d C. Bloomberg to Boston, Bloomberg one oh six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine sixty to the country Sirius XM Chado one nine team, and around the globe the Bloomberg Business app and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is Bloomberg Business Week.

Eating meat takes a toll on the environment. You know that We've talked about it on our broadcast. We've also talked about several plant based food startups that manufactured meat alternatives beyond meat and impossible foods, commonly using ingredients such as soy and p protein. Turning now to a company that's got quite a different solution for sustainable consumption. Check out Upside Foods. It's a startup that grows meat directly

from animal cells. The company recently announced a four million dollars seriously funding round. It put its valuation at over a billion dollars. Investments came from Bill Gates, Tyson Foods, and soft Bank, to name just a few. Upsides products are still pending reulatory review, but the company hopes it's lab grown chicken, breasts, steaks, and more will be market ready by the end of this year. Tim and Mike Reagan recently spoke with Amy Chen. She is the company's

chief operating officer. We take real animals, take themselves from those animals. We essentially select the ones that are going to taste the best and grow the best, and then we feed them something that we call self feed or media. It's essentially the same kind of nutrients they would normally get inside of an animal's body. We just do it in a what we call cultivator, which is like a stainless steel tank that you might see in a brewery

or in a yogurt factory. We allow them to grow, continue feeding them, and then ultimately are able to harvest meat that is as close to the real thing as you can possibly get because it's grown from real animals. Amy the timing of this segment is perfect because Tim and I were both starving. So I'm curious when will we be able to see this on the market. I understand it has to get regulatory approval first, right, That's exactly right, and so we are currently pending regulatory approval.

But as soon as it happens, we will be excited to start being able to share are it more broadly with consumers. One of the things that really convinced me about the potential and the promise of cultivated meat was actually the taste of it, and growing up in the

food world, taste of King and Queen. When I first had my bite of cultivated meat, I can tell you that's the moment when I really believe, and when you think about plant based and a lot of these other things that require people to make changes in their habits. I'm from Texas, and I love my meat and so I have always just wanted to be able to think about a way to change the world without requiring people to really change their habits. And I think does this

in a really compelling way. What okay, if you were to be able to buy this in this store when you look at the ingredients, but on the box, what would it say? And also are their antibiotics? Are their their chemicals in it, etcetera. Now, one of the things that's amazing is that it doesn't have antibiotics or hormones or some of the things that you think about with

respect to conventional meat. We're still working on exactly what the label would say, but would essentially say chickens grown from animal cells are cultivated from high quality animal cells. There's a whole range of products is you can imagine everything from a chicken breast or a chicken file at through to a sausage or a hot dog. Um. Different products of conventional meat would have different labels, and so

you'd see that same kind of thing reflected here. But ultimately the promise is that the real cell can be the meat that we all love. You know, Amy, I'm wondering if there's the potential down the roads even sort of improve on mother nature, you know, and make a steak with less cholesterol, or chicken that I don't know comes pre flavored with buffalo sauce or something like that. But you're you're just playing with God there, alright. But

I'm curious, is there yeah? Is there is there the potential to actually enhance foods and make them even healthier, more nutritious than than what we're used to. Long term? Absolutely, um, I think that's something on our roadmap in the horizon. I think in the near term we're focused on delivering amazing delicious meat um that is safe enough, high quality, and that fits into people's diets and into their habits

in a way that makes a lot of sense. But absolutely, longer term, I mean exactly what you say, you could have a steak with the intritional profile of samins um or anything else you could imagine in terms of allergies or other issues that are currently part of the conventional

meat system. Well, Amy, speaking of the conventional meat system, a lot of people who are vegetarians, they don't they don't eat meat, you know, for a few reasons, and among those reasons include treatment of animals, or they're just against killing animals for food. UM, what is this type of thing vegetarian friendly? You know, it's a great question. UM. I would say absolutely, but it probably depends on what

kind of vegetarians are UM. We have a company that is a mix of passionate meat eaters UM and carnivores and folks that are passionate vegans and vegetarians. And what we've generally found is that people who are vegetarian or vegan for ethical reasons or environmental reasons UM will embrace cultivated meat. Folks who are maybe vegetarian or vegan for religious reasons or other ones may want to take a

second look. I was going to say, the the environmental footprint of cultivated meat sounds like it must be way less than the farm grown version. Is that is that safe?

Is that a selling point of this product? Absolutely? I think one of the pieces when you think about what's happening in the future is people predict that demand for meat is going to almost double by And when you think about the amount of land and water, it's about a third that's currently used for agriculture, you know, one fifth, one six of all greenhouse gases, and the world simply cannot sustain the kind of demand increases that we're expecting on meat UM and so one of the things that's

really exciting about cultivated meat is because it happens in a controlled environment similar to a manufacturing plant. UM, it had the potential to have a substantially lower footprint. That was a me chen chief operating officer of Upside Foods with Tim and fellow Bloomberg carnivore Mike Crea again, and a big shout out to Mike for filling in while I was out of the office. Maybe I'll send a mistake or something. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week coming up.

You've had your food, now, how about a beer. I mean, it has been quite a week. The chief marketing officer at a Bienbev joins us right after the break. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick takes Tim Steinovik from Bloomberg Radio. This company, it is the world's biggest brewer maker, Budweiser, Stella, Artois and Corona. And our next guest to spent nearly twenty years at the company, and he's got some thoughts

for us. On today's marketplace for adult beverages and really what consumers want most. Marsin Marcondez is the chief marketing Officer at a b Nbev. He's also the former global president of a b nbev's Beyond Beer division. He joined us in studio this past week and express his hope that the world is finally hopefully putting COVID nineteen in

the rear view mirror your business. It's very meaningful to see the people that people are really willing to go back to life to enjoy, to be outside, to enjoy concerts too, to be with friends, to be with family, to have a good time, to feel like they can enjoy time together one more time. This has an impact on on the economy. This this has a significant impact in our business as well. You can imagine all the frequency on the restaurants, bars, events are all those things

that were not happening anymore. So there's a balance points of concern as as it's always the case in life, but a lot of points for optimism as well. Do you feel like you have a lot of clarity and and in terms of the outlook, And it's interesting that you talk about events tib and I did a couple of shows from the U S Open here in New York City and it was so packed compared to where it was pretty pandemic. So, having said that, do you feel like the economy is stronger versus like all of

the recessionary talk that seems to be going on globally. Yes, And I am optimistic. That's exactly how I feel, especially for our industry. I am optimistic. There's a lot of bright side, a lot of bright angles for us to observe, like the ones you just described. People are out there. There's always a key concern about inflation, recession here and there,

but there's a bigger inner voice and energy saying go live. Well, it's it's interesting here you speak this way because obviously your job is to tappen to what people are feeling, because you need to know how to communicate to them. You need to know how to express your brands to them in a way that they will be receptive to. How have you community? How is your communication A B N beats communication changed over the last couple of years.

And that's a very good question. And actually I should take one or two steps back before I get really straight into your into your question, because I think we we as a company, we're going through a meaningful process of evolution. We're known for our financial discipline and for growing inorganically. But then in the last couple of years, to your question, we became the indisputable number one brewery in the world. And by the time you become the

number one, you lead the category. So your growth model needs to adjust because it's not about acquiring other companies anymore and just fighting for share. You need to work to enlarge and to grow the whole category so that everybody wins and win together. Meaning we need to move from a growth model that is focused on inorganic growth to a growth model that is focused on organic growth.

And by the time any company makes that decision, brands become inevitably one of the most important assets of the organization, if not the most important ones. And this is when we really talk about our messaging and all that. So we are intentionally becoming much more consumer centric. And this is for real, it's not just a nice thing a

nice thing to say. So we became obsessed about talking to people, understanding people, understanding what's going on with them, what's impacting their behaviors, which are their needs so that we can identify relevant opportunities to make our brands relevant in their lives. The key thing is that when you do marketing, when you build brands, there's a trap or a tendency for people to be okay just if they're visible, and then you can spend a lot of money just

on visibility. The key thing to really drive growth and to be meaningful to people is when you find the right spots to be relevant to them. How do you figure relevancy? It all comes. It all comes as a consequence of being closed to them. So we talked to literally millions of people every year. We have survey we have online panels and fixed online panels. We we talked to thousands of consumers every week because we're obsessed about

understanding their behavior. We learn a lot of that coming after COVID right, because when the big thing happens that it significantly changes the way people live. We need to to have a much tighter post on how they're living so you can identify the opportunities to be meaningful and relevant in their lives. And that's a big change that we've been going through as an organization. Because there's so

many brands today b and some five brands. How does is structured internally because you can't personally oversee five hundred brands. So take us inside the company a little bit. I was about to say welcome to the kitchen, but i'd right say welcome to the bar, to the brewery, all right. I have heads of marketing responsible for the different regions of the world, and I also have people reportents directly

to me to lead from those five brands. With the four global brands, and they are Budweiser, Stellartoa, Corona, and Miklobota, So there's a special focus their plus the long tail of brands because this is still an industry where fifty percent of the industry is focused still in local brands, they usually carry the local pride. Right, that makes a lot of sense. I mean, do you anticipate that those four brands continue to be really the engine for the

company going forward? Definitely yes, because these four brands there are premium brands, and the premiumization is a gigantic trend that we see having a huge impact in multiple industries, including hours and it's here to stay. What are the top brands that's sell in the United States. I'll give you the top two. Okay, so number one, it is not going to be hard to to guess. It's bud Light and it's been the case for decades. But number

two might be in new news for you. Number two is michelob Ultra low carbs, locale, great taste for twenty years. That's been around for twenty years, and since last year it's the number two brand in volumes in the United States. Timmy, you were shocked by that. Yeah, I was really surprised because to me, it's still a new brand even though

it is twenty years old. That's one of those brands that I think I remember when it was introduced, like how has it been so successful and why, especially in the last year, has it seen a real uptick Again, It's all about getting extremely well connected with consumer behavior and with big consumer trends and industry trends. In this case, we see that health and wellness is a big trend.

We see this in every industry for sure. COVID has accelerated that as well, so we see a clear impact of this in our industry too, and this has definitely accelerated the performance of Mikolo Boltra more so. That's what I wanted to ask you, like Tim and I for so many of our conversations for a long time, and I do feel like we're getting increasingly away of thinking about the COVID impact. But what happened to you guys during COVID that has stayed with you in terms of

corporate strategy and how you relate with consumers. So when you think about brands and commercial trends in the indust three I could name three. So the first one, as we just spoke about, is health and wellness. Second point is premiumization. Because beer is affordable luxury, right, so when people say, like Okay, things are complicated, I want to give myself some treat, they can't afford great beers. So

we see premiumization. Again. This is a trend that we see happening in multiple industries, but in our case in the beer industry, it's a very evident and strong trend. So back to your previous question on the global brands, they're all premium and they continue to be the big growth engine of the company because they're sitting over a gigantic trend. The third thing that I think we all feel it e commerce. Because of the lockdown lives people

started getting used to buying things online. So we've been investing significantly significant amounts of money on technology, on building those platforms. And for example, more than fifty percent of our net revenues they are already sold worldwide via digital channels. How does that work for beer? Right? How does that work? So this is because but this is sold from us to the clients, to the retailers right, so to the entrade.

These are business to business platform called bees. It's already one of the top ten e commerce platforms in the world. But imagine a company our size, more than fifty percent of our natural revenues are already sold via digital channels. What about director consumer? Direct to consumers? This is our next endeavor. So we have already in a few countries.

So in the US specifically, we have strong partnerships with the big retailers that are that also have online versions like Walmart and so and so forth and easily and the ones you mentioned. We cannot operate in the US doing direct two consumers operations, but in multiple countries of the world we can. In Brazil, it's uh, it already represents more than five percent of our total sales. We

sell direct to consumers. And that we're just about to launch, Like fIF World Cup will be a big opportunity for us, especially in Latin American markets because imagine how many people will be watching the games at home. I feel like, oh, I should have ordered more beers. So we're launching Tada Tada right, which is our our new global brand for for director consumers in more than ten countries in the second semester of this year. And this has become this

is growing very fast. Are beer trends among consumers? I mean, it's probably stupid question, but I mean, are they the same? Like? How different are some some things they hit the tren the different markets, uh, and with different intensities, But they're the same, Like the mega trends as we say, like primalization, health and well in the e commerce these are mega trends. But for example, beyond beer is something that is not

equally split yet. So you see like the US, for example, having a very meaningful market already for beyond beer, I mean selters, ready to drink, cocktails, hearties and these kinds of products. It's already tennish percent of the total industry in the US. It's very sizeable in other markets, it's still more at the early stages. So this is one trend. It is a trend everywhere, but it's still uneven lead the street any thanks to Marsel Marcone days he's the

chief marketing officer at A B and BEV. And speaking of thanking someone, a big shout out to our Carley Wanna of Bloomberg News. She has been with us doing a rotation three months with the Bloomberg Radio Group and she's been such an important member of our team, including helping us produce this weekend broadcast on a regular basis. And she's not going too far, so maybe she'll actually get to join us back on air in a bit when she's got some new stories potentially about Crypto. We

totally want her back. And that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us. I'm Carol Masser and I'm Tim Stanovk. Be sure to tune into Bloomberg Business Week Monday through Friday. It starts at two pm Wall Street time on Bloomberg Radio. You can also watch our daily broadcast on YouTube. Just search Bloomberg Global News and check

out our Bloomberg Business Week podcast. You can find that at Bloomberg dot com, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. Bloomberg Business Week is available on newsstands, now, at Bloomberg dot com and always on the Bloomberg terminal. You can also see me on Bloomberg Quick Take, available at Bloomberg dot im, slash qt, and streaming platforms like Roku, Apple TV, Samsung TV and more. Have a great weekend everyone, take care of stay safe. This is Bloomberg