Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - September 13th, 2024

This is Bloomberg business Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio.

Hi, everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. Well another packed week, the first and maybe only debate between Vice President Kamala Harris and former President Donald Trump. We also got an uptick in jobless claims and two reads on US inflation supporting a quarter point cut. As we count down to this coming week's FED meeting, we are certainly setting up for a busy September and Fall, a theme this past week as the campaign's sprint to

The next new iPhone super cycle or a Bit of a Miss, and the Bloomberg Bag take on our world's largest market cap company. Yeah, we're still talking about Apple, how it came to rule the world.

All of that to come, and we begin with a look toward the November presidental election. On Tuesday night, Donald Trump and Kamala Harris sparred through their first debate. The former president and current vice president traded barb's over abortion rights, foreign policy January sixth, and of course the economy. Although I got to say, Tim, I think while it was touched upon, a lot of people think there was not enough information about it, especially when it comes to specific policies.

What do you think, based on other debates in recent years, doesn't surprise me at all? Yeah, these have never, at least in recent memory, been filled with lots of policy. But I think that's what a lot of voters want to see. I mean, especially from Harris, who they don't know as well according to polls, as they know Trump.

Yeah.

I do feel like debates have become especially for Harris, who's playing catchup in a big way right about who I am as a leader, where I stand on policies. Is she just Biden two point zero? I mean there's a lot of questions out there.

I think that's why you still have folks out there saying she's got to do more interviews.

Yeah, exactly, So we'll see that if that comes. We'll also see if we get more debates. There's been a lot of back and forth about whether or not. We'll certainly see that well.

For more on the campaigns in the aftermath of the debate, we turned to Stefan sea League. He worked in leadership roles in both the private and public sectors, including a nearly thirty year career on Wall Street. He's former Undersecretary of Commerce for International Trade at the US Department of Commerce during the Obama administration, also headed the International Trade Administration. Stefan also menaging partner and founder of Bridge Park Advisors.

Last time he was on with US, said that President Biden would step down from the race. So, first of all, congratulations and will you buy me a lottery ticket? Why did you think that so much? Because he had no choice, remind us? And why you were thinking about that because it was before he did it obviously.

Yeah.

I mean, if you recall, Carol, this was right after the former president was shot, and I thought that, you know, that opportunity for him to look so presidential was going to give him a real bump, and I thought it was going to force President Biden's hand. And fundamentally, what I told you is when I believe that when he was convinced and his closest advisors and confidence was were

So your thoughts on last night and what the race is now? Did we get enough when it comes to economics and policy and things that Americans care about?

You know, I was actually surprised about how little of the debate actually covered economic topics. Where you look at all of the polling, it says economic issues are the most important things that are going to drive undecided voters votes in the election. One is the economy, and to his inflation, I'm not sure not part of the economy. But I think we got, you know, far less of a real substance of dialogue on those topics, and I

We did get some conversation on tariffs, and Donald Trump did push back on what we heard from Kamala Harris by saying that the Biden administration did leave intact some of the tariffs that the Trump administration had put on China. What are your thoughts around those types of protectionist trade policies.

You know, it's interesting, Tim, Actually both parties are really largely aligned on tariffs and trade. Actually, there are, of course some nuances. Foreign President Trump is doubling down on his reasonably aggressive, you know, trade stance. What he said at least was he would implement tariffs of ten to twenty percent across the board and sixty percent of goods coming in from China with a broad brush. I don't think that's particularly effective.

You know.

To be sure, tariffs have a important place to protect industry, US industry, where those industries are critical to our national security interests. But when you do it on a broad brushed basis, at least, it's my view that the light's not worth the candle because clearly it's inflationary. I think it actually costs you more jobs than it saves you,

So it's not apples to apples in terms of what Donald Trump is proposing now stuff in terms of more Chinese goods that are coming in versus what we've seen during the Trump administration what continued into the Biden administration, specifically on high tech and chips in particular, So it's not the same thing.

Well, the tariffs, I mean, let's separate. One of the things that Biden administration did was export controls as it relates to chips and critical technology, but specifically as it relates to tariffs. You know, this started with steel production and the issue around state owned enterprises in China, which controls steel production and now are by far the leading producer of steel around the world and have flooded the market. The fact is President Trump put on tariffs for imported

You did mention the economy and inflation, two things that we know things to pull after poller on the top of mind for voters. We learned a little bit more about Kamala Harris, but still, since she's relatively new as a candidate and it doesn't have a full policy position out there, we don't know everything about how she feels

But let's go through a couple of those tips.

I want to talk specifically about the home.

The home buying the home buying one to me is interesting, and you didn't mention, obviously the whole price gouging price issue that she raised, because you know, to me, these both reflect a fundamental misunderstanding of reasonably simple economics, right, which is, if you give somebody twenty five thousand dollars to go buy a first home, and there is frankly

Basic economics.

Basic economics. So I just don't see.

How that works and does what she wants to do, which is to actually assist new home buyers in affording their first terms. What it's going to do is just increase the prices of homes. And so to me, this is very similar with the whole price gouging issue which you talked about in groceries and in food retail. As we all know, when you don't let the market set prices, let that leads to inefficiencies and in this particular case,

One thing that's stuck with me, or stayed with me from our last conversation is, you know, the stock market isn't Main Street, right, and so there are a lot of Americans that are struggling. So I'm trying to understand because you know, this race is a close one no matter what, and these are two people who stand for

Well, look, I mean they're that's a big one. That that is a big one, and it's you know, it relates at least in my view, to education to opportunity, which you know, which touches a whole host of policies.

Prices are hot, right, right, and then come down with I think.

The problem is Americans, who most of whom have not experienced inflation, don't understand that about inflation. They think of inflation as what they pay at the gas pump, and they see those prices fluctuate. So they do see gas prices come down, and maybe that's what they expect.

Other times, gas prices are now at three or low. Former President Trump is very fixated on oil and gas and gas prices because he thinks there's a direct linkage between gas and prices in inflation. I don't get that economics either. In fact, you know, there is no more of a global commodity than you know, oil and gas, and those prices are not set narrowly based on US production.

Every time we wrap up with you, I'm like, wait, I have a million more questions, so you have to come back again.

Always happy to join.

You guys, So we so much appreciate it. I'm Stefan Sealik, thank you so much, Managing partner over at Bridge Park Advisors, as we say, former Undersecretary of Commerce for International Trade at the US Department of Commerce that was during the Obama administration, but really looks at things from, as we say, the public and private sectors. All right, folks, you are listening and watching Bloomberg Business Week.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play, and Androyd Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Apple on Monday unveil the latest version of its flagship device, the iPhone sixteen, along with updated versions of its Apple Watch and AirPods. The company is betting it can entice consumers with modest hardware upgrades and AI technology that's still on the horizon.

It's a gambit for the tech Titan, which has been racing to develop a suite of tools called Apple Intelligence. Though Apple has been touting the tech since it's developers conference back in June, the software will not be included in the initial versions of the new iPhones, perhaps not great for investors who hope that the new iPhone infused with AI capabilities would lead to a so called super cycle.

I don't think that this is an upgrade design to gather people from a fifteen pro Promax. I think this is an update designed to get people on much older hardware. Are people in other smartphone ecosystems like Android right, because the ear of your hardware improvements are essentially negligible. It's one of the smallest I think annual hardware improvements that I've seen from Apple in a long time. Maybe a little bit more significant than going from the twelve to

Well, yeah, that's that's interesting because I feel like at this point, like you KT and me, Yeah, but because when you think about, you know, switching from Android to Apple, I feel like Mark, there's like this cult of personality that has developed among each phones. I mean, if you have an Android in the year of Our Lord twenty twenty four, are you going to switch to an iPhone? I mean that seems like that would sort of go against what you believe in at this point.

Well, if your friends and family force you to because they're tired of you not being able to be in the group chat because you're a green bubble versus their bloom bubbles, right, you know a lot of times it's friends and family pushing people to make that switch. So you know, you want your photos to be and sync with everyone else, you want your subscriptions to be in sync with everyone else. So I think that's a component there.

Network effects him very important.

Yeah, I think there are case studies for business school written about Apples network effects. Well, Mark, I do, I do want to. I mean you bring up, Mark, the idea of people going out and buying iPhones or like, you know, getting their family to do it. Didn't Tim Cook a few years ago kind of rib somebody and told told him to go buy an iPhone for his mom or his grammar or something.

Well, if you think about it from a from a financial standpoint and from a fiduciary duty standpoint, he probably didn't need to say that. But you know, his number one priority is to make as much of a return as he can for shareholders, and what drives that return is revenue. And so him telling that person in that audience, I was actually there when he said. I was a little shocked that he said that that he should buy

Well.

RCS it's Rich Communication Services. It's basically a next generation version of SMS. It's what Android is using. It takes a lot of the features like Wi Fi texting, read receipts, delivered notifications, high resolution image transfers for both group chats and one to one chats, brings them to the Android world. And now if you're on an iPhone, you'll be able to use RCS to communicate with people on the Android ecosystem.

Hey, Mark, we have a couple more minutes left with you. I want to talk a little more about what we learned from the company with regards to AI. You said it's sort of this incremental rollout. What's the promise that that Apple has to its customers when it comes to AI.

Well, the promise they have to their customers is that it's going to launch in October, a month after it launches after the new iPhones go on sale. And they've basically promised a roadmap of features that are going to launch over the next several months. But you know, their big differentiator there is their privacy standpoint. Right. They've been talking about their private cloud compute, which basically uses Apple chips in the cloud to store and process the information

That was Bloomberg News Chief technology correspondent Mark German.

Speaking of Apple. The company's worth around three point four trillion dollars, more than any other company in the world. It's twenty twenty three revenue of nearly four hundred billion dollars makes it about as big as the entire economy of Denmark. Are the Philippines, and though most of the business revolves around selling iPhones, it is definitely much more than just the iPhone.

Last quarter, for example, Apples sales just from digital services reach twenty four point two billion dollars. That's more than the combined revenue of Adobe, Airbnb, Netflix, Palentteer, Spotify, Zoom and x from Elon Musk. Investors seem to have no problem with this kind of dominance. Apple's soaring stock price over the past decade makes that clear. Regulators, on the other hand, well they've got some questions.

Yeah, they definitely do. Bloomberg News technology reporter Austin Krr and bluebe Our BusinessWeek columnist Max Chafkin wrote all about it in this week's Big Take about how Apple has come to rule the world. Austin joined Tim and Katie Greifeld.

The controversy comes down to how much Apple controls its ecosystem, what they will let into. It's so called wald garden, the sort of confines of its platform, and the truth is they don't let a whole a lot in that they don't regulate review and also charge certain commissions and fees on, which is what a lot of developers are

And it's interesting because you can trust that with investors. This feels like for potentially a case where regulators and investors are at odds here because I don't know, Austin, do you see any signs that investors are uneasy with just how dominant Apple is?

No, I mean, I think that lock in effect is actually what ironically makes it so enticing for investors and also such a beloved company for consumers. I mean, look, the tough thing for the DOJ here in the US, which filed its anti trust complaint earlier in March, is that what they take issue with, the way that Apple controls its ecosystem, integrates its hardware, software and services is

The same time.

We don't really quite grasp that because of that integrated experience, what it's locking out it can be a detriment to the experience itself. Even if we like the apple of day to day incremental updates. They didn't really release any new AI features that they hadn't already previewed. They're not

Right, Well, let's talk about that a little bit more, because we're talking about regulators. Then we talked about investors, and you bring up the end user, of course, the customer, the person who is buying into this walled garden. I mean, what is the sense there are users getting frustrated with the fact that you do have to buy.

Into an ecosystem.

You can't really I just a product one off and then integrate it with other products from other companies.

The thing is that this isn't an overnight switch. This is something that they've essentially been building out from when Steve Jobs came back and released the iMac than the iPod, and so on. You started building up that ecosystem over the course of decades where if you have an iPhone, remember that device came out before there was an app store, and then they introduced the App store a year later.

Austin, you and Max, I love the way you start the piece that iconic nineteen eighty four Apple ad the sort of David versus Golias, you know, and where Apple has come since then and from then. I wonder, just in the last thirty seconds that we have with you, what the biggest threat to Apple is right now moving forward?

I mean, I think it is sort of a feeling of incrementalism of you know, things aren't seemingly disruptive until they are being able to disrupt, until they are disrupted.

You know.

I think when chat ChiPT came along in late twenty twenty two, that shocked a lot of people. No one had ever seen anything like that. And here we are two years later and Apple's just getting around to rolling out its AI features, maybe if which won't roll out to twenty twenty five. Now, did that disrupt you know, sales of the iPhone going for work. No, there's not really a chat Schipt phone that's out there, but you can see the risks of sort of slowly introducing some

Austin Carr one half of the team that did today's at Bloomberg Big Take. Check it out at Bloomberg dot com, Slash the Big Take, and of course, on the terminal.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Well.

Our next guest is the former chairman and CEO of the Dow Chemical Companies, also former executive chairman of DuPont. He spent more than forty years at the company. He worked in engineering, he worked in manufacturing, management, sales, marketing, and more. Andrew Liveris is also the author of the book Leading Through Disruption, a change Maker's Guide to twenty first century Leadership. The book came out last year. We're happy to have you here in our Bloomberg studio. How

Never left the building up.

I'll take I take that back. But in all seriousness, you don't see the tenure of somebody spending their entire career at a company. Was that detrimental to a career.

I think you can have many many careers in one career. And I had many geographies. I was had in Australia, worked in Hong Kong, spent a lot of time in China, Korea, Thailand, brought to Louisiana, called out a different country sometimes, and then you know, back to Ashaw. So they moved me around. So as a young person, I ever thought I'd be a global nomad. I became one. And then to the book, I became a global citizen, which I don't think there's a lot of us around, and I think big American

It doesn't feel like it?

No, No, A second lightning second.

Wow, Yeah, that's really interesting.

I mean, do you think that's important experience to have this idea of being a global citizen? When you take a look at corporate leadership today, do you view that as a prerequisite.

Yeah, I think the world has gone tribal. We're retreating to our tribes. We're not understanding each other. And the vacuum from political leadership is huge. As we're noticing everywhere in the world, democracy and capitalism is going through a divorce, and so the distribution of wealth has been uneven and now we've seen decades of it. And those of us who are lucky to be born in the right place with the right parents, yeah, we're good. But that's a

Us is known.

You know, we are clearly getting assaulted with information that we can't make sense of. Young people are seeing wars around the place. They're seeing what's going on with the environment and social injustices, these tectonic shifts. All of us are retreating to our tribes. So the term global citizen and how to bring these tribes together in this new world of ours twenty first century is really what the book speaks to. My observation is that everything still is

I'm glad you brought this up because I've been referring to this article that Simone Foxman wrote at the end of last month quite a bit, because we've seen this backlash of DEI at companies. So I'll read from it.

Yeah?

I'm very big on purpose based leadership. Purpose based leadership being values based. Society's are demanding that we earn the licensed to operate as enterprises. Societies evolved from one hundred years ago, fifty years ago, twenty years ago. DEI came a fad and became something that I think the term workism was born. That's when it's at its worse, because if it's a quota based system or a prescription or a rule in some financial capital allocation process, that's not DEI.

Okay.

DEI is absolutely putting in place human systems that respect each other and have integrity and treat each other fairly, and that those systems are transparent. And I happen to believe that global corporations like Dow do that and do that well. I'm on the board of IBM We do that very well there, but to do that across cultures, we're finding that actually we're not taking time to walk in each other's shoes. And then if we're looking within the country to take the United States, we are divided

And you think you can do that without a company coming out and looking.

Quote absolutely absolutely I mean DOW. I mean we had our own healthcare system for our employees. We absolutely totally hire with equality and social justice in mind. We go to all the schools where we can get diversity of talent. Look at me, I'm an Australian of Greek origins from northern out back Australia. How did I ever become CEO of DOW? I mean, so I was given opportunity companies

Well, this conversation reminds me of sort of the backlash we've also seen against ESG, of course, especially when you think about the governance part of ESG. And I mean one of the rallying cries for sort of the anti ESG folks was that why are you not focusing on me making money?

Basically?

And they would say that there's a tension there between that values based leadership and actually.

Making a profit making money. I mean, how would you answer that?

Yeah, the first chapter of the book is on that topic. And the first thing I say is can we get away with these acronyms? Stop them, stop them please? They don't mean anything. ESG meant nothing to nobody. So then people started attacking it on the money making thing. So I divide it into its three very important subjects, environmental stewardship, social stewardship, and governance with a big G and a little G. And then I take all those subjects and I look at them from the point of view of

What about politics? Everyone loves talking politics.

Let's go there's a lot of around lately.

What should the role of a leader be, a leader of a corporation be in a highly charged political environment?

So the extreme of politics is what we're living with, whether it's in Europe or I said, democracy and capitalism going through divorce mostly because of short termism and the disease of short termism. Politicians are trying to get elected.

And we should know. You were a leader of President Trump's Manufacturing Council.

Right, and also President Obama's and also advised President Bush.

So you've been you've been doing President Biden.

On infrastructure, okay, and I've just been given a request from a Harris campaign to help out. So all of that to tell you, I'm not afraid of politics because what I do as a corporate leader is embrace policy. And policy is where the word politics comes from. And if I embrace policy that is fair and balance, it doesn't become extreme because you have to compromise. Us politics used to understand the art of compromise between the Houses

One policy that I know is of interest to our listeners and our viewers, because one just got in touch with me to ask you about tariffs. Yeah, one of our listeners want to know about what tariffs mean to you through the lands of a CEO who created things? And do you see retaliatory behavior globally as a result of tariffs.

Believe it or not. This is my second book. My first book, Making in America, was written in twenty eleven after my observation that China and a lot of the countries in the Faris in particular, were my competitors. They weren't companies, they were countries. American global companies competed against countries who subsidized oka their industries solar renewables win evs. Lately, that type of subsidy is not fair market practice. So how do you collaborate unfair market practice? What you put

More than forty years at one company, you saw a lot. I'm going to ask you about some of the challenging times that you saw at the company. How do you deal with that challenging legacy?

You know, the decades before I joined ow that DEO was you know, Doll was eighteen ninety seven. So in the many decades of learning how to work with government and agencies, as America progressed and obviously understood science and chemistry and its effects on human ecosystems, environment, it meant that the first of the birth of the EPA, and then I talked about the five d's. The first D is defiance. They don't know what they're talking about. The

Today I would.

Say I was a corporate entrepreneur, and I think we need that type of leader in charge to be flexible, agile, resilient, patient, but of course collaborative, to absolutely totally get the other side of the conversation to the table.

And you bring up the Olympics. You did my segue a little bit for me in talking about the five days. You bring up the Olympics. You know you want to make your scientists as famous as revered as Olympians. Let's actually talk about Olympia and stuff, because.

This is really interesting.

You are involved in planning the twenty thirty two Olympics in Brisbane, your native Australia. I actually was in Paris, I heard during the commercial.

Breakdown as a viewer athlete.

Not as an athlete. We are training super hard for twenty twenty eight. Not sure I'm going to get there, but let's talk about twenty thirty two because Paris did.

A beautiful job.

I know that you spent several weeks in Paris as well. What experience is what takeaways can you take from Paris. As you look to the future, as you look to twenty thirty two, the.

Olympics of the twenty first century, you use the keyword experience. I think humanity is actually buying experiences and actually I'm going to use the word fun, but it actually likes. Humanity likes to be with each other. And Paris was the first Olympics really since Rio. Yeah, when everyone was together. Remember Tokyo had the COVID delay, that opportunity for the Parisians to put on the best of their culture, which they did, but to make it fun, to make it

You know, everybody was talking by Australian Regan.

I know what she did, so certainly got it in fact. But the fun and the experience is what stood out in Paris that humanity basically went back to the ancient Greeks. I'm a Greek descent and said, let's put down all of our ills, all of our woes and let's enjoy each other. Paris did that in space the sensational games, not just the Olympics, but the Paralympics. Actually, I enjoyed the Paralympics as much as the Olympics because I saw humans with disabilities not think of themselves that way. They

Pretty excited for that one.

Yeah it's not exactly a gorgeous European city.

But yeah, yeah, yeah.

Maybe they'll transform it well who knows.

But they definitely have Hollywood and celebrities and venues.

That's a glitz.

Yeah, that's a glitz. Let's a glitz. I have nature, I have Australia. I have a warm, friendly society. I have and a bit of leader to actually use oceans and rivers and forests and reefs and put on a spectacle where the Olympics meets nature and the other way around. Our motto already is shine brightest period together.

I love it.

Yeah, of course I'm.

Going to go.

After I looks at Paris.

Person was my some of the Olympics. I want to go every four years. I want to make it a priority.

You got time twenty thirty two.

Okay, it's on the calendar.

All right, Katie's there. A big thank you. Andrew. Andrew liveris his book Leading Through Disruption, A change Maker's Guide to twenty first century leadership. Former CEO of the Dow Chemical Company, former executive chair of Dow DuPont. He's on the boards of Lucid Group, Sadi Raby Oil, IBM, and he's working hard on the Olympics. This is Bloomberg BusinessWeek.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen on Apple, car Play and and Broyd Auto with a Bloomberg Business act or wants us live on YouTube.

Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including bringing back the Sport and sportswear Helen Tuckett teamed up with baseball legend and investor Derek Jeter with the goal of creating the next great athletic brand.

Plus pulling back the curtain and digging deeper on what it takes for world class CEOs to reinvent themselves. The author of the Journey of Leadership joins us later on.

First Up This Hour. It's been pretty slow progress, but the gap between women and men in leadership roles at US business schools has been shrinking, especially as more women are promoted to positions that are stepping stones to deanships.

According to research by the Association to Advanced Collegiate Schools of Business in twenty twenty three to this year, women deans at three hundred and sixty eight US business schools represented thirty percent of the total. It's an increase from seventeen percent in two thousand and seventy two thousand and eight. What's more, the AACSB found women now account for forty

All right, So sound like the trend is a good one. Even though the gap is shrinking, women still make up only a third of all business school deans. One of those deans is when now she is dean of the Villanova School of Business. She joined Tim, Katie Greyfield and Bloomberg News Senior editor Dimitra Cassani's.

Demeter, I want to start with you. I want you to set the scene for us, because each year you spend a lot of time focusing on business schools for Bloomberg Business Week. Take us into the gender gap when it comes to leadership at these schools.

Well, it's just like the numbers that you just mentioned. I mean, there's been a substantial gender gap, but we see it narrowing and importantly so I think you see it to some degree in a way with our guests today with Dean Mao of Villanova. Women who've been at these institutions for a while, who've been growing in different positions and moving their way up. And as we see more and more of those women sort of stepping into these associate dean ships, you know they're primed for taking

Well, Dean Mail come in on that point.

Of course, you're dean of the Villanova School of Business. I actually went to school at harber For just two miles down the road.

But you've been with Villanova in various roles since nineteen ninety six, I believe.

So what was the path to finally becoming dean of the business school?

Oh, it's pretty much my entire career. So I started as an assistant professor in the economics department really one year out of the graduate program, and then became tenured at the business school and then took on the department chair bro only because my colleagues wanted to hear me called chairman mouth. So they waited were for ten years for that to happen. When it finally happened, they're like, yeah,

So but yeah, dmail, I'm curious how the makeup of the school is representative or is not representative from a gender perspective of the actual administration.

In terms of you know, the deans or yeah, in terms.

Of the deans, for example, and I can only draw in my own experience, but when my dad, when my dad went to business school in seventies, it was almost all men. When I went to business school, you know what, eight or ten years ago, it was like fifty to fifty, But it didn't seem like the administration was fifty to fifty gender.

Well yeah, so if you count department chairs and the deans and associate deans right now, say, out of the five department chairs, we only have one female, and she's actually the finance department chair, which has sixty percent of our students, so very very important job, and she's done a fantastic job at that. In terms of the dean's job, let's just soom out a little bit for the whole university. We have six colleges, right, so six deans, five are

Yes, that's.

School.

So it's certainly come a long way. But right now, for instance, I have two senior associate deans and one male one female.

So yeah, so.

There you go.

And that's the Villanova make up there.

And you mentioned and that it's not something that you necessarily get into for the salary. But Demetria, I want to come to you on that point. I mean, you think about the data that you have and what does that show when it comes to the salaries.

Yeah, well, I mean we show we've collected data. Again it's from AACSB, the association that Tim mentioned, and there's still there's still a gap. I mean, the gap in salary has been somewhat consistent, it feels like over the last five to eight years, which is about women lagging men in the dean's roll five to six percent in salary.

Hold on? Why is college and graduate school so expensive? What are the salaries?

Well, those they are they are big salaries, but they're big jobs. Maybe I don't know, demail in.

Terms of the cost that it's very interesting you asked that. I think inflation adjusted economists here confession, it didn't go up as much as the sort of headline price tag says, because you also have scholarships, right, and so the net cost of attending actually in recent years have gone down, did not go up. So so that's but if you see the price tag, it's like you go to the

Yeah, I wanted to get into some of the challenges that schools are facing right now, the effect of the Supreme Court decision back in the summer of twenty twenty three that bans affirmative action. How's this playing out at Villanova and at the Business School.

Actually we have not finalized the numbers for this year yet, but preliminary data seemed to suggest the numbers pretty much stabilized. So it didn't have a big impact for a school like us, and maybe partly because we still have very strong outreach. And also, if you think about it, mit I think came out and said that. They came out

Right?

Could they be coming to some school like us? And maybe that has an impact sort of the next year schools And then it trigg goes down to the following year. So that's maybe just a sort of an educated guess and for us maybe it's a wash.

Demitra, as I mentioned, you spend a very good part of your year focused on the business schools. I'm not going to give anything away because I don't know anything, but I know this time of year is when the rankings usually come out. Can you give us any preview of of sort of how you're thinking about things this year? Just very briefly.

I mean, we've been talking to deans at several schools and you know, going out there and taking a look at what's happening. The rankings come out next week the way.

September Mark seventeenth.

They will publish at twelve oh one am. These are global rankings. You know, a lot of the themes we've been seeing in recent years are picking up and just taking on greater importance.

The AI.

The theme of AI in both how it's being used in the classroom, how it's affecting so many aspects of the education, and also in the jobs that the graduates are seeking. And then jobs is a big one. This year, it's been a challenging year for NBA grads. All right, Well, we know that has continued.

We know we'll get you back on as soon as that list does. Come out to meet you. Casinede's Bloomberg New Senior Editor when Mount Dean of the Villanova School of Business. Here in the studio.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern down Applecar Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business Ad. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

From business to politics, there seems to be a growing power shift of women in more prominent positions of power, and that includes women of color.

Okay, so remember just a few weeks ago, this is back in July agient history when we're talking to presidential election here. But that was the day that President Joe Biden said he would no longer run for president. That day, some of America's most prominent black women across politics, business and entertainment joined thousands of their peers to galvanize support for Vice President Kamala Harris. They raised one point five million dollars in just three hours for her take on

Often in our space as equity practitioners, we hear that you have to give up something in order for other people to have space. Inclusive leadership looks exactly like what happened there. Joe Biden made an assessment that what's required right now, well, he could not provide in his leadership. So he transferred his leadership to a very capable black woman who has been in the trenches and demonstrated that she has a lived experience to lead in this moment

What is the next phase of this power shift towards women? I guess, how do we keep this momentum going because now we do have a black woman kind of front and center stage. How do we kind of keep that continuing?

Yeah, I mean it is a sign for businesses. It does really highlight that equity is necessary all of our institutions and all of our workforces. Katanji Jackson Brown, I mean she's at the pinnacle in her career as well. We see Justice Supreme Court Justice. Absolutely, we saw a lot of that happening when she was finally confirmed as well. It is very very important for these leaders to represent our democracy, to represent and reflect what our country looks like.

You know, I want to go back to Vice President Kamala Harris because one thing that we've seen her do, or one thing we've seen her not do, is make her racial identity part of her pitch to the American people, which I think is really interesting. She has not made that a big part of her campaign.

No, she has not made that a big part of our campaign. And it's not her only identity either. She's American, she's a woman, she is multi racial, and you know, she is to represent. When she accepted her nomination speech, she represents all people and she talked about doing that for her entire career. Of the people right, and most women who lead organizations, who lead corporations, who lead labor unions, who lead think tanks, they don't lead as I'm a

That's a tiny number.

It is so tiny, so tiny that is not representative of it is not representative of the US population at all. There is a lot of work that needs to be done there. But my example is still the same that they don't lead with. I am a black woman leader, I am a leader.

What groups do you target in your work as a cultural architect an equity strategist. Do you kind of focus on people early in their careers and advancing them or is this more kind of targeting people in the mid and more senior levels.

I really work with organizations who are committed to ensuring that they have the right environment for black women to thrive, for everyone to thrive, but particularly for black women to thrive. So if there is an organization who has an experience that they are not able to retain talented black women, well we have a conversation to see what's going wrong.

What are the challenges that these leaders are coming to you with when they hire you, when they bring you in to do this work. What are the problems they're trying to.

Solve, the problems that they are trying to solve as they're trying to operationalize their commitment for racial equity, their commitments that they are making for diversity. We all know that companies with diverse teams are thirty five percent more productive in revenue, in impact in the bottom line overall than companies whose teams are not diverse.

Okay, So I want to bring this up because in recent months, we've seen Low's, Harley Davidson, Tractor Supply, Dear Brown Foreman all come out and say they're pulling back from pledges to commit to diversity, equity and inclusion programs. There's a real pushback to DEI right now.

There is a tremendous pushback to d E and I right now. And one would think where they committed in the first place. After George Floyd twenty twenty, there was a lot of commitments. No company wanted to be on the wrong side of I'm not going to commit to this. We saw a lot of companies pulling back with this Supreme Court rulings coming out of the Fearless Fund and

Ten seconds permanent shift?

Is this it?

Or these companies circle back in the coming years.

They need to circle back. It's at their own peril if they don't.

Doctor Kerry Mitchell Brown, thanks so much for joining us. Thank you for protect and Equity Strategist joining us here in the Bloomberg's studio.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm. Easter Listen on Apple card Play and then brought auto with a Bloomberg Business act or wanted us live on YouTube?

All right, let me throw out one metric. I guess I kind of got to do this. The global sportswear market size valued at nearly four hundred and thirteen billion dollars in twenty twenty two, estimated to reach nearly seven hundred forty nine billion by twenty thirty one. And listen, there's a lot of players in it and looking to take a share of it. Is a partnership. Our next two guests, both with brands that are very well known now with a combined brand known as Greatness Wins.

So let's get to the interview with more joining us here in the studio. The founder of Vuntucket, who came up with the idea for his casual shirts while working at GE Healthcare. Chris Ricobono back with us, also with US, Hall of Fame shortstop and five time World Series champion with the New York Yankees. Also an e commerce investor to Derek Jeter, both here in the Bloomberg BusinessWeek studio. Okay, guys, first up, we want to know how you guys got together.

That's a good question. You start with super version comes out.

I was going to say Derek reached out to me, but that's not how it worked. So I over the pandemic. I was looking to solve another problem in the fashion industry, and I thought about athletic apparel and it didn't exist for me. Something that had a great fit but also had performance first in mind. So I came up with this concept in this idea, but now I wanted a

That he'd be interested.

But after a year of bothering him and his agents, he actually called me and said, Chris, I'm just not that interested and excited in this. But I said, he can't get off say he can't get off the phone, Derek, how can I get you excited? So we talked for a while after that, and we kind of came together with both of our visions. You know, I'm apparel guy,

Okay, you weren't excited and then you became excited. How that happened? How did you make that turn?

Well? I think you know, first and foremost getting to know Chris, we talked about the idea. I've had relationships with athletic brands throughout my career and great relationships and I still do today. And you know, when I was first speaking to Chris, I was like, well, first of all, you know, this is a crowded space. It's not as easy to attack this space, and it's going to take some time and it's going to take a lot of energy.

You do, though, Derek, probably get a lot of investment pitches, not just in the apparel world, but yeah, no question, from lots of different entrepreneurs who want your involvement. What was it specifically about this one with Chris with Untucket that really caught your eye.

I think it's you got to get to know the people any business that you're in the same thing, when you're on a team on the field, you have to have the right people on the side.

Yeah.

I was going to say that, but you didn't give me enough time say that. And you know, I just found Chris to be very very passionate about it. You can't fake passion. You either are you aren't. And you know, even when I told him that I wasn't interested, he kept calling and we kept having the conversation, and I knew when you're if you're going to be successful, you need those types of people on your side.

I always think about that. I remember talking to a top m and a banker and he's like, the only way you get deals done is this. CEOs have to like each other, and that's how you get things come to the table. Would you say no to a great deal because you didn't like somebody.

Oh, without a doubt.

I mean you end up working a lot. It's funny when Derek said that he wanted to be more involved than he when he goes all in. I was thinking he was just doing that as an equity played to get some more equity. Yeah, that he actually wanted to be and Derek's liked. I mean, he wants to talk about everything every decision.

And you want somebody who's I want.

Someone that yes, because I don't know everything and I definitely don't know everything in the athletic apparel space. So it's been a this is.

Recorded, right, I'm gonna play that. We're gonna play that back. You can do that, you can you can loop it, yeah, exactly.

Well, the same thing for you, I mean, Derek, when you get involved in something, how you know, we asked about what made this interesting, but in general, how involved do you want to be? I mean how much do you have to love the brand that you hook up with?

You have to be involved. I mean otherwise you're just given your money and you're hoping someone else runs with it and makes you more. But when you're passionate about something, when you put in the time, you put in the effort. I think the best thing to say about us is we disagree probably more than we agree, and I think that's a good thing. I mean, you don't want people that always think the same as you, Otherwise you're never going to make improvements. You're never going to make progress.

Is it hard to say no to?

Derek?

Though?

We just talked with the leadership We are author of a leadership book, and they talked about CEOs who once they get to the top, they around themselves with people who say who don't say no.

Listen, I rolled the dice right from the beginning, and we went after each other a little bit. But like you said it, it's the best way to go about it. Like you want to leave at the end of the day and have people go against your views, because if they're agreeing with you, you're not going to always do the

Well I do wonder when does it get a little tricky, Like any partnership, whether it's a marriage, whether it's working relationships, whether it's business relationships, there's always tough times.

What are some of those looking at me?

Yeah? I was about to say, just keep going. You want to you answer that question?

No, But I really do feel like a little bit of debate or a little bit of arguing, like gets you to a better place.

I think it does. You have to have a difference of opinion, like I said, I do like you tim Otherwise, like I said, you're not going to make any any progress moving forward. And we probably we disagree more than we agree, but we do it respectfully. And you know, there are some things that I know he's an expert. It's impossible to be an expert everything, right. It surrounds your people that are much more intelligent in different fields.

So Chris, let's go there because this is a really crowded space. You mentioned Nike, but I mean, if you think about upstarts like Viory Rhone. Then there are the big players like Nike, Adidas and the like. How do you carve out a place for you specifically?

So it's funny, just like with on Tucket, I really needed this product. Then you might ask why. You know there's plenty of athletic brands and athlesier brands. For me, the athletic brands that existed, the quality wasn't there, the consistency of fit wasn't there. They were designed for performance, but they didn't have that modern fit. The athleisure brands have an incredible fit, very high quality fabrics, but not

I've got yoga pants on that are pilling a little bit, so I totally get you. What's the kind of what's the growth trajectory? Tell me what we can tell we're Bloomberg. We love numbers, you know that. What's the growth on this?

Well, we need you to go buy some pants. We just said, so get right on it to help it's out. But I think for us, I'll let Chris follow up on it. I think what we want to show as a brand, this is only our second year. We want to show progress. You know sometimes when you when when you're building a company, a startup company, you want success right away to understand you're you're a startup company for I think they say ten years. I mean it's a

Yeah.

Wait, so will it be ten years before you really feel like it's there?

No how much you buy?

No, I mean there is so much competition. You want to just stay relevant. You want to make a great product. That's the first thing. You got to make a great product, you need your repeats to be there, which they are for us. The other thing that's really exciting with us is not just you have the e comm then eventually stores, which is what I did with on Tucket. We have a great wholesale business we're building at Greatness Wins. We have a golf business. We'll be in eighty clubs. We

Foundary, women who do a little bit of shopping.

So we have something that will be announcing soon. That's exciting. So I'm very happy with earlier are. People love the product, they love the quality, and we're just getting going, but very excited for the future.

All Right, We're going to just shift a little bit because I am curious, Derek, are you looking for any other investments, you know, in sports beyond baseball or maybe an MLB team or anything.

No, I've been down that path. No, I'm going to take a break from that. I spent a lot of time with my four kids who are seven and under. So it's a full time job, especially when you're talking about Major League Baseball ownership. So at this particular point, I think I have my hands full.

So you know whether, yeah, well when you say take a break, are you ruling it out for the future or do you want to get back?

And I learned a long time ago never say never yeah, because you never know. I as just said it three times in a row. But you don't know where the future is going to lead you. But at this particular point now.

I do also wonder the two of you, like when you think about either ath leisure or athletic appareled you know, companies that you look at that you admire or leaders you admire. Let me ask you, Chris first, like, is there somebody that you look at and say that's who I kind of get some cues from.

Or I mean we always talk about Nike and the Jordan brand. Those are the greatest, you know, probably the greatest brand maybe ever, so well, you know, you want to be them, but if you're half half of what they become, you're very successful. And I think the ath leisure brands are great too. I mean I won't name them because you know, but I think there's a lot of eight brands these days, so we're just trying to differentiate.

Leader you look at your smiling.

No, there's there's a lot, you know, it's one that comes to mind, he said, Jordan Brand. You know MJ's been like a big brother than me. And I think you know, I have young kids now, and you want them to choose their career path and find someone that they can look up to. You want them to see someone who's been successful. And you know, you talk about Michael on what he was able to accomplish on the basketball court, but I think you look at athletes post

All Right, you're going to go there, you go world serious, I know I have to do this. I have to do this, all right. So you're going to be in the booth.

Right I am? Yes? Yeah?

Who do you can you think about? Who might be there?

It depends, you know, I'm not trying to skirt the question. I'm really not. But a lot of it is matchups. Okay, in a couple of weeks because you know, some teams I know during my careers to play Anaheim Angels all the time, we just couldn't beat them. And you know, finally we broke through and we were able to win in two thousand and nine. But it all comes down to matchups. So there's some good teams out there.

Chris, you talk baseball, and I'm curious what you might think for the World Series.

This knows nothing about base are no do you know baseball?

I mean I don't did a deal with I don't bother Derek with it, but I'm a Yankees fan. We'll see it's they don't seem to be able to perform in the playoffs for the last what is it fifteen years now.

We'll discuss it on podcast quay listen, guys, got about forty seconds left here real quickly in I don't know, a year from now, what's the conversation around your company.

I think we'll start to look at stores. I mean I love stores. Not many people do in retail. We have niney of them on Tucket and we're opening more. I think it's really important for the male shoppers. So I think we'll look at that and we'll look at continued growth in these different areas that we discuss, bookstores, golf, e commerce. So it's very exciting.

Same thing for you, Derek, in terms of greatness, wins and a year from now, what are we gonna be talking about.

Oh, I think it's all awareness. You want people to be aware. You want to walk around the streets and see people wearing it. And I'm very confident in the fact that someone buys our product and they wear it, they'll be happy with it and they return.

As a customer and no pilling.

You promise, Well, you got to tell me I got.

Derek j Derek Jeter, of course, Chris Ricobono, you guys got me FLLL mixed.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us Live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen on Apple, car Play and and brout Auto with a Bloomberg Business app, or wants us live on YouTube.

Well, our next guest has thirty years of experience at McKinsey and Company, focusing on projects related to organizational change in companies that range from high tech to banking, healthcare, industrial and more. He's a senior partner McKenzie and senior partner at McKinsey Company, Codean of the CEO leadership program the Bower Forum. He's also got a brand new book out. It's called The Journey of Leadership, How CEOs Learned to Lead from the Inside Out, Rameshering of Austin, Welcome to

I'm good, Thank you for having me.

It's good to have you with us. My first question is very basic. There's four co authors on this book. How do you write a book with three other people?

It's actually a fantastic experience.

I've learned a lot from my co authors, Dana, Ham, Swanna and Kirk and you know, obviously some of us took the lead on different chapters, but bringing the different perspectives together was a fantastic learning experience for us.

All right, So which chapters did you write?

So?

I wrote the chapter on humility, that's one of our first chapters. I wrote the chapter on vulnerability. I wrote the chapter on control as an illusion. Happy to talk about that. But I'm also as Codean of the Bower Forum, I've been in the journey of many many CEOs have gone through the program, more than five hundred CEOs have gone through it, so I have a good view of all the chapters.

How many leaders come to you, guys, and they're not great leaders to begin but.

By the time you've become a leader in that sense and you're like a leader enough to hire McKinsey. Right, you've obviously done somethings right.

You have done somethings right, and I think you've got a good achievement orientation. You've accomplished something, but yet you want to learn. So people come to the Bower Forum. People come to our leadership programs because they at least have that initial sense of wanting to learn.

So there is some self selection in that process.

Okay, So talk a little bit about just the experience of sort of understanding what makes a leader successful. Oftentimes we talk to CEOs of companies, especially honestly, especially this time of year because it's like book season. Yeah, the CEOs, they spend three decades at a company. Oftentimes, you know, the folks who are writing books about leadership are the ones who are are retired from leading these companies, not

Yeah, you know, we have stories of both CEOs of retired and we have stories of CEOs are still active. And I think what we found is, and this is the concept of inside out leadership that we've described in the book. Successful leaders, especially in a world that is changing so fast with complex geopolitics and technology disruptions, they think a lot about who they are, what is their purpose,

What about inspiring just by paying really good wages and giving benefits and making you know, I just think about for workers. You know, it's interesting coming off the debate, right, it's like the economy, the economy, the economy, and even though wages have gone up, there are workers out there who don't feel like they are participating, especially when it comes to publicly held companies, in the fortunes of those companies.

You're absolutely right.

I think these leaders think about stakeholders and have to think about all stakeholders, their employees, their team, society, more broadly, their customers. I'll give you an example of Frank Desuza, who was, you know, one of the co founders of Cognizant, you know, Indian It and BPO company.

Taught a lot.

About even if a frontline software programmer reached out to him, he would always, you know, connect with them, respond to them. And so in many of these sectors, especially the knowledge of me thinking about all employees is quite critical.

So completely agree with you. Even in the manufacturing I'm with you.

I think the successful company thinking about creating value, you know, not just for shareholders, but for employees as well. I see this even in private equity companies are thinking much more about broader participation in creating value.

How do they justify that from a cost perspective?

I think all our research at McKinsey shows that deeper engagement, investing in employees, taking care of them, benefits well being. That absolutely leads that deeper engagement leads to better productivity, better performance.

Better financial returns. There's a lot of research that confirms that you do.

Talk to CEOs, and you mentioned the head of Cognizance, but I'm just curious talk to us about some of the CEOs that you did talk to for the book and what you wanted to get from them and include.

Yeah, Frank is actually in the book, but beyond Frank, you know couple of other CEOs.

Tepan Bansal of Moderna.

You know, when he wanted to you know, he had the aspiration of developing the vaccine. They had never manufactured a vaccine before, so he told his head of manufacturing, tell.

Me what support you need to make a billion?

Those are the vaccines and and you know, the head of manufacturing almost fell off the chair.

But they also realized that, you know, Stefan normally sped an aggressive ambition.

But was there to support them, roll off his sleeves, taught problem with them. Another is Wendy Copp of Teach for America and then Teach for All.

You know, when she took Teach for.

Americas so now in sixty countries, she realized the value of the importance of understanding the context, understanding the entrepreneurs, social entrepreneurs in these geographies, and has come up with this model of collaborative leadership where the fundamental idea.

Of education equity is the same, but she's had to tailor.

The model and inspire these is to have the kind of impact in these sixty countries that she never thought was possible fifteen twenty years ago.

A lot of your own work has focused on organizational change. As I mentioned in the introduction, this is just another way to describe how companies organize themselves from a human capital perspective. And I'm wondering over your three decade career at McKinsey, what the biggest shift in how organizations have realized how they can be more efficient. What has that shift been.

I think the biggest shift is the notion of purpose.

Again, Moderna is a great example, and in the healthcare.

It's probably easier when you're doing work in life sciences or healthcare, but helping people see the value of what they're doing can then unleash their full less potential.

I thought it was interesting. There's a chapter, chapter ten, everyone keeps things from the Boss, and it talks about its somebody becomes the CEO, they really no longer have peers who might you know, inform them, keep them, say to them, say no to them, or something.

I know a lot of instances of that that I've seen play out over the last few years. So free, why is this nobody's saying no around this guy?

You can tell right, or say that's a great idea.

That's a great idea, boss.

So you know, you get in this vacuum, and you know, I think there's a lot of either founder led companies or founder created companies that ultimately get into a problem where nobody wants to tell them, don't do anything, don't tweet that exactly.

No.

I just think about you know, here we go look at companies like Starbucks and Chipotle went their period, you know, like these companies so identified with their founders for a long time and went through some tough times. I don't know what do you tell the leaders to make sure they don't get in that predicament? How do they not get in that predicament?

You're absolutely right. And by the way, this is issue not just in founder lt company. It's actually many companies and not just the CEO. Even as you get more senior people start holding back and don't share the truth with folks. So I think we had the story in that chapter about the media company CEO who surrounded himself with truth tellers, and these truth tellers were people at

Hey, how has the organizational structure of McKinsey changed in your career.

I think McKinsey our mission and values that have stayed the same in these thirty years. Obviously, the scope of work we do, the geographies we are in, that has expanded quite a bit in response to what our clients are asking.

And you know, we're we are innovating, we're.

Experimenting, we've invested a lot in technology, and then we've embed a purpose into what we do that's become much more important for us now. So those are some of the shifts that I've seen in these thirty years.

Hey, Ramesh, one thing I want to ask you, and I think it's safe to say, we've done a lot of reporting a lot of other folks about the consulting industry overall, McKinsey and others kind of going through a

You know, I'm been in the industry for thirty years, and I think the industry goes through its own cycles. But I see robust demand. You know, I talked about changing geopolitics, technology disruptions, climate change. All of these are changes happening in the world, and our clients are looking for new creative ways of of driving growth. Our vision is to help clients deliver sustainable, inclusive growth in the world. I think in that journey, we're seeing robust demand. We're

You know, part of it is we're taking some of our own medicine.

And I see demand continuing to be robust, and that's what keeps me going.

All Right, one thing we wanted to do, we've done this with some other folks that have written leadership books is talk about some of the leaders that are out there. And I want to start with the two leaders that were up on stage in Pennsylvania last night, the debate stage, Kamala Harris, Donald Trump. How would you rank them as leaders? What advice would you give to them in terms of their leadership skills or lack thereof.

You know, I am not a political commentator, I'm not an expert.

I'll leave it to other experts.

I think our belief, like I said, is this concept of inside out leader leadership where we see successful leaders in business, in social leadership, in all spheres thinking about their own purpose, who they are, and using.

That to inspire teams, inspire the world.

That's the model we see, we understand well, and that's what we're sharing with the world.

Do you think that though these are two candidates, either of them, one of them, both of them that inspire like the electorate and citizens.

They obviously have, like citizens, different parts of the world that they inspire, right, so you know they resonate with different parts of the world and different parts of America as well.

All right, So maybe easier, let's pick a leader that we talk about where do you want to go?

Tim?

I want to talk about Elon Musk. I mean he's someone we talk about each and every day. He's got several companies including SpaceX, Tesla of course the boring company he's got X formerly known as twin say Neuralink. Didn't say Neuralink yet there you go. That's one of the companies x AI as well a lot. When you look at Elon Musk, what do you see in terms of leadership?

I mean I see a leader who comes up with ideas, innovating, bold, so many attributes that are interesting and useful to learn from.

What about ways that you think he could be a better leader?

Again, I have not studied Elon Musk, so again I'm not I don't think I'm an expert at at Elon Musk specifically.

I'll go back to what we see leaders do.

I think for us, our leadership model starts with leading staff. Who am I, you know, being more self aware, being aware of like what are my strengths, what are my areas?

How can I improve? Like I said right at the beginning, that's why.

People come to the Barer Forum and other leadership programs we do.

And then using that to lead teams, inspire teams.

You know, I already mentioned at least our belief is the model of the imperial CEO is no longer sustainable, and then using that to inspire institutions, inspire change in the world.

That's the model of sustainable leadership we've seen, we've studied, and we share with leaders who come.

To us, Ramesh, what are some takeaways that folks who don't necessarily lead organizations at the top, but maybe managers who have small teams or who are early on in their careers, what are some takeaways that they can get from the leaders at the top of their game, who you've written about, you've studied, you've worked with.

Yeah, our book has actually meant for a wide spectrum of leaders. Leaders frankly, who are who are in schools today, Leaders who are early in their career, leaders who are more senior. My advice would be, you know, focused not just on academic success and achievement, but think about.

Your own purpose. You know, what do you want to accomplish in the.

World, What what service you want to provide to the community around you, and and bring that sense of purpose to the to the institution you're part of ask a lot of questions. You know, when I meet a lot of younger colleagues who are coming into McKenzie, I tell them.

Exercise the obligation to dissent.

That's one of our key principles within mckensey. Ask a lot of questions, understand how things work, get invite a lot of feedback and coaching, and use that to improve and grow.

That's what I advise younger leaders.

Interesting stuff, I mean, listen a lot of leaders right like looking for advice and trying to figure out in an environment where things can change a lot a lot thrown at you. And if you're publicly held, you can be out if the stock price isn't doing well.

Or maybe they keep paying you even if the stock is coming down. We've seen situations like that before too.

We have seen that, Ramesh. Thank you so much, Ramesh Shrinavasen As we said, Senior partner at McKenzie and Company. The book is called The Journey of Leadership, How CEOs Learn to Lead from the inside out. This is Bloomberg.

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