Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - October 8th, 2022

just a moment. Speaking of innovation and change, we're going to explore the new world order many are facing when it comes to alternative energy, e commerce, and e learning. We're gonna speak with the CEO of Pearson, as well as the founder of All of It's an e commerce business with a mission to reduce waste, getting rid of those cardboard boxes. Yeah, exactly. Let's stick around for a second hour. That's when we're going to talk about the power of quitting. We'll do that with former pro poker

player Annie Duke. All of that to come, but first we'll be in with this week's cover story. In the magazine's features section, it's all about the driverless debate are humans better drivers than machines? For more, we turned to Bloomberg business Week columnist Max Chaffkin, along with the editor

of Business Week Joel Weber. If you go back maybe a decade ago to ted in these conferences, you had everyone basically going around, in particular Google, uh, kind of leading the charge, but also lots of automakers, lots of technologists. Basically everybody's saying, hey, you know, my kids ten and you know they're never gonna need a driver's license. And that really became baked almost like conventional wisdom, uh, not

just among technologists, but among policymakers, consultants everywhere. And you saw basically about five years ago this amazing explosion of investment um, not just Google and Cruise, but smaller companies, basically everyone throwing billions into this field, and a lot

of those a lot of that money's gone nowhere. We've seen a lot of stocks either crash in the case of Aurora, which is one of these kind of bubbly self driving companies, or you know, in the case of coming like Zooks, which was super hyped, and then it kind of got swallowed up by Amazon. So so it's just been a lot of kind of um, you know, difficulty in the industry. Okay, So one of the sources in the story who has become something of a detractor, uh is the name that we haven't really heard from

for a while, and that's Anthony Lewandowski. Who is Anthony Lewandowski? And what did he have to tell you? So he is, you know, one of the most interesting people in self driving cars. He was for a really long time, I mean, you know, leading the charge, the charge that I was just talking about talking about how great driverless cars are going to be. He is really the person who created the in to the extent that one person created the Google self driving car or even the industry, it was him.

And he went through this weird, very controversial journey. He went to uber um and then got caught up in this um massive, you know, multi billion dollar litigation over alleged trade secrets theft, wound up with criminal charges, he pled guilty, and then he is pardoned on the last day of the Trump presidency. And he's kind of come

out the other end, obviously with tons of baggage. Very controversial, but sort of saying some things out loud that I think people in the industry were saying quietly for a very long time, and that is this is not going as well as we wanted it to go. What's incredible about this guy is he's the one who sort of created the first version of autonomous vehicle, right. He described this situation years ago where he took a Toyota Prius

and got it to move across was it the Bay Bridge? Yeah, yeah, yeah, and it was for It's funny, it was for a reality show. So I mean in this kind of driverless car world, he was sort of the scrappy entrepreneur, the one who was kind of trying to push it to commercialize. He took, as he said, he created a sort of hack together a Prius, drove it across the Brave Bay Bridge, and then that basically got swallowed up into Google became

the Google Driver. But now he's doing something that is you could argue, is is sort of I don't know, less complicated than that when it comes to the application of evs, essentially using them on an industrial and that's what one and this actually I think the part of the article that's kind of interesting is like maybe self driving cars do have a practical purpose, but again, it doesn't look like what we've been told about, you know, having a robo taxi pull up outside of your home

or driving into the office, or you doing all that and then sending your vehicle off somewhere like run around and make money for you all day. It actually looks like we maybe a mining application mix. Yeah. Yeah, So Lewandowski's company is doing what they call autonomous haulage, basically driverless dump trucks. It sounds maybe harder than driverless cars, but but you gotta remember these are closed sites. Uh, these trucks are basically just going back and forth, back

and forth. I mean, they very much are like it's more like conventional robotics. And I think the one thing that kind of opened my eyes is readiness. Thing is there's been a lot of hype on driverless cars and and the sort of robo taxi narrative that we all thought was gonna be worth trillions of dollars caused Kathy would to you know, value Tesla. You know, I don't know in the in the many trillions of dollars um

that I think. There's a lot of questions, but there have been A. There's been huge advances on kind of more day to day autonomy. So we're talking about Advanced driver Assistance a DOS, which is now like in every new car. It's you know, dramatically changed the driving experience. It's a big part of Elon musk strategy with Tesla. And then we have these autonomous industrial applications what Anthony Levandowski is doing with mining, but of course it's also

happening in agriculture. It's happening in lots of industries that really no one's paying attention to. Can we talk about the Derek Zulanda problem. My favorite point I've been talking about the news room, so so self driving cars and lots of problem. I mean, one of the challenges for self driving cars is there all these parts of driving that they struggle with, one of which is what the industry calls unprotected left turn. This is a left turn that's not um, you know, not one lane to one

lane or not with a left turn signal. And it's kind of funny because be an anti turner any yeah, yeah, like any normal driver just calls out a left and it's just like Derek Zuland or kind of rebranding not being able to turn left is like, I'm you know, I'm not an ambi turner. Um, but I think that's one of those jokes you have to be a certain age to uh. I think three of the four of

us it's important, right, Like, no, no, absolutely. And it's one of these things where you know, if you listen to the industry, they're saying, hey, they're these edge cases,

these things nobody thinks about. And one of these things that they are talking about is an edge case is basically left turns so so like really like, there's just a lot of problems that the industry has and they're just so far away from from mastery that that I think this this discussion we've had where people have been saying, oh, they're the way there, they just need to get that one more percent, it's it's I think it's very hard to say with any kind of certainty that that's the

that's the ratio, that's the number. That was Bloomberg business Week call him this, Max Chafkin, along with the editor of the magazine Joel Weber, coming up how renewables could move us closer to a clean energy future. That's next. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Spinovik from Bloomberg Radio. Well, there was a story

on the Bloomberg this past week. It was about how climate change made Hurricane Ian's most extreme rainfall about ten worse than it would have been without two centuries of greenhouse gas pollution. This is according to a first take analysis of the storm by two US climate researchers. And while climate change might not be on the mind of the average energy consumer, we spoke with someone who thinks about this stuff quite a bit. Jason Few is the CEO of fuel Cell Energy. It's publicly traded at one

point for billion dollar market cap company. It produces units that make electricity from hydrogen. He gave us an update on the business as well as the concerns he sees as we move towards a renewable future. We do two things as a company. We decarbonized power and we produce hydrogen.

When you think about some of those concerns or areas that you raised, you know we've had commercial available products since two thousand and three, and in fact, our first commercial fuel cell was sold actually in Japan to the Cairn and Beer Company using biofuels. So, you know, it just shows the fuel flexibility of the platform when it comes to hydrogen and some of the concerns that you know, get raised around hydrogen. You know, hydrogen is used widely,

you know, around the world. You know, ninety million metric tons of year of hydrogen are used. There's some forecast that suggests that you know, of the world's energy will ultimately come from hydrogen, if not greater than that. We tend to think that hydrogen is going to be an important part of the solution, the same way we think carbon capture will be an important part of the solution to achieving the one and a half degree scenario in

terms of climate change itself. And and from a safety standpoint, like I said, you know, hydrogen widely used today. It's very safe and unlike a battery, which contains everything that you need inside the battery to actually start a fire, that's not the case with hydrogen. So it's actually quite today. So why isn't adopted more widespread? Why will it maybe

only energy um production in the years to come. Why not more Well, I think part of it is, uh there's a cost question right in terms of this this

desire to have green hydrogen. One of the things that I'm really excited about is the move not only in the United States, but I'm I'm seeing in countries around the world and the conversations we're having and in the conversation I actually just got to participate in in Pittsburgh with Secretary Grant Home and energy ministers from around the world at a CEO Hydrogen roundtable, the conversation has shifted from using colors to really talk about carbon intensity, and

I think that's one big change that's going to help drive accelerated adoption. Another change or thing that's happening that's going to help drive adoption is the work that you're scene that's going to get done as a result of the i ra A in the United States. You have similar legislation in markets like Korea and Japan and across the EU. And we've seen this movie play out before. We saw how incentives, whether it's I t C, production tax credits, those kind of things really helped drive the

cost curve down. We're gonna see that same thing happen with fuel cells and with hydrogen as an effective way to get us to the cost that everyone's targeting, you know, which is you know, as low as a dollar a kilogram for hydrogen, and that's going to make it highly competitive.

And I think as you look around the world today and you're seeing increased energy prices, those sparks spreads are narrowing, uh and and so I think you're gonna see adoption start to accelerate with hydrogen as one of the answers to solving this climate crisis we have today. From an infrastructure perspective, when it comes to generating power, explain to us how you take a hility and allow it to create power using hydrogen using fuel cells versus using fossil fuels.

So when you think about an input fuel and you think about hydrogen, hydrogen just becomes the input fuel that we would be using with our solid oxide platform for instance, in which we would take that hydrogen and we use that hydrogen as the feedstock to create electricity. That hydrogen interacts with the fuel cell, right, and and the chemistry that we use in this case of solid oxide technology

to produce that power. And if that hydrogen was produced by you know, a zero carbon source of electricity, let's say you're using electrolysis, so you're taking electricity and water and you're converting into hydrogen. Then you're using that hydrogen to produce power. That hydrogen has zero carbon intensity, then the power being produced from our platform is zero carbon. But we also have the ability to use blended hydrogen and natural gas, for example, which even lowers you know,

the carbon intensity of the fuel in that case. But in all cases, whether it's hydrogen, renewmal natural gas, or bio fuels, that serves as the input fuel that the fuel cell needs to then convert that to power, whether it's for the grid or for a commercial industrial customer, UH and delivering that power as a as a product. I'm curious, Jason about the business and the business outlook and the growth. And I know earlier this month you

came out with your latest update quarterly update. I think there was a wider than expected loss for the quarter, strongest quarterly revenue in five years. UM and you guys talked about an increase in marketing and consulting costs because you had raised headcount for rebranding, accelerated and accelerating your

sales and commercialization efforts. Give us some more color if you will in terms of the business who's buying you guys have custom are certainly in the energy space and the corporate space, but give us an idea of where

the growth is coming from from your business. So are the customers that we target largely cut across the utility sector where we're providing grid based power, and we might be providing that power purely is just a power resource on the grid, or we might be providing that power and using the thermal energy where we might be connected to a district heating system and we're providing that thermal

energy in addition to the power. Or we might be in an in a microgrid configuration where we're providing power to the grid and in the power outage, we go into what we refer to as island mode and we provide power to a dedicated set of resources, keeping those

critical resources powered while the grid is down. We also serve commercial and industrial customers, and in many of those cases, we're providing power to those customers, and again we might be providing the thermal energy such that the using steam from our platform in their manufacturing process. And we also have the ability to do things like provide carbon to

those customers. So when you think about carbonated beverage companies, are you think about food processing where carbon is really important to not only processing proteins, but then extending shelf like by keeping those proteins shield. Those are always in which we leverage our platform to deliver value to our customers in addition to hydrogen, and we're building projects for Toyota. Today we will deliver hydrogen to Toyota power and water all from the same platform at the Port of Wana

Beach in California. That was fuel Cell CEO Jason Few Still ahead on Bloomberg Business Week. Another company looking to help combat climate change by partnering with retailers to keep

excess packaging out of landfills. That's coming up next. This is Bloomberg Broadcasting from the financial capital of the World Bloomberg Love Rio in New York to Washington, d C. Bloomberg to Boston, Bloomberg one O six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine six to the country Sirius XM Channer one nineteen and around the globe the Bloomberg Business and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol

Messer and Bloomberg Quick takes Tim Stenovin on Bloomberg Radio. Well, in vision a world where every time a consumer buys an item, they put another item back into the economy, not a landfill, and the transaction produces little to no waste, seem impossible. While we spoke with the founder of a company that is doing just that. We're talking about Nate Faust. He's the founder of Olive. It's an e commerce business

with a mission to reduce waste from online shopping. He might be a familiar name to you if you follow the industry well for the last decade. He who was the co founder of jet. It was sold to Walmart back in sixteen for a cool three point three billion dollars. It was the largest U. S. E commer acquisition at the time. Before that, he actually founded Quidsy dot com. That was diapers dot com. He did that also along

with Mark Laurie. So already a few success He knows the thing are too this is maybe this is like retirement project exactly. Well, anyway, he explained the story behind the company and how he expects the e commerce delivery experience to evolve. That's really what started this whole journey was just the frustration of of dealing with breaking down boxes and all the trips up and down my driveway and the epiphany that this this isn't how it has

to be. It's you know, incredibly inconvenient both for customers and for the environment. And so what we've built at olive to address that is really a closed loop system where we partner with brands and retailers to deliver their customer orders in reuse packaging that we pick up from

their doorsteps, along with any returns. And to really further that circularity model, not only do we eliminate all that packaging waste, but when we pick that up, consumers also have the opportunity to drop in us clothes that we then sell on their behalf, so that we keep them out of landfills and increase the circularity of goods and

multiple uses along with the circularity of packaging. You know, I think it's been more than a year year or so since we last checked in with you, So tell us about what's the update in terms of your business, the volume that pick up, the usage and love some insight on that. Since last time we spoke, we did make a pretty significant shift in our business from a business to consumer model through a business to business model.

You know, previously we had an offering where you could basically order from a bunch of places that stuff would come to us, we'd combine it for you into a single weekly packaging and reusable packaging. But we actually had a lot of our early brand partners saying, oh my gosh, our customers love this. Could you just provide this experience

directly for us? And so we pivoted to a A B two B model where now we work directly with brands and Olive waste free delivery is a ship method that shows up at checkout and you know, we're still early on, but you know, we're doing several thousand deliveries and pickups a week just in the New York metro area, and you know, smattering of of other pickups across the rest of the country, but with a big focus on the New York market at the moment. How do you

scale this? How do you get it beyond fashion and and get it beyond clothing. It really just comes down to volume, and the greater scale of the supply chain, the greater the ability to move through products that might have you know, slightly lower rees values, but It really just comes down to synchronizing that delivery and pick up such that there's no incremental cost getting those used goods out of people's homes and up for sale in secondhand markets.

So have you had a conversation with Amazon um there, that's obviously the biggest e commerce player there is. I love to one day be able to address all um you know, e commerce categories, but right now we're more focused on mid sized apparel. I was being a little silly, but I do think about, you know, and as consumers, I increasingly am thinking about, you know, I don't need to get everything tomorrow. I don't need to get everything

in five million boxes. And I do wonder, as you guys move along, how are you measuring that you are indeed lowering carbon emissions by what you are doing. We're actually in this new model putting there the data so that we can perform a study similar to the one that we had started in the prior B two S model, where that was more about the consolidation and the reduction of the sort of last mile stops. And in that first version, we weren't actually eliminating a lot of the

packaging because we were intercepting it and consolidating it. In this new model, we're elimiting the packaging and we're also with the driving the circularity of the goods having a significant sustainability impact. And so we're getting close to kicking off that study to really measure our our end end impact. I think thanks to Olive founder net Fast, you're listening to Bloomberg business Week for e commerce to e learning as an iconic on seventy eight year old publishing company

continues to delve deeper into digital. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic from Bloomberg Radio. According to a report out late last year by Research Dive, the global digital educational publishing market is predicted to garner a revenue of nearly twenty eight billion dollars by seven. That's growing rapidly at a compound annual growth rate of se to him from during the forecast period. So that's seven, so

pretty rapid. Yeah, it's happening really really quickly. For some thoughts on the industry and strategies for growth, we spoke to Andy Bird. He's the CEO of Pearson, and prior to that he was president and chairman of Walt Disney International. He spent fourteen years at the company. Yeah, this was a fun conversation. We began by asking him though about the macro economic landscape and what he sees going forward. It's very chaotic out there. I think there is a

flight quality certainly were seeing that. You know, we're listed on the foot Sea and in London and we were actually the best performing company for the first half of this year. And I think that's down to the resilience of what we do, not just the necessarily the sector we're in, but but the range of businesses were in. In the resilience of our business. And I think, you know, the days of free money being over, um, you know, it's starting to have an impact. I think, you know,

those days over are just paused. I'm not sure they're going to come back to the you know, to the recent past very quickly. I'm not I'm not so certain. I mean, you know, in many ways, the last decade or so, which we've all got used to, was somewhat abnormal. If you look on a much longer time horizon, you know, we all used to pay interest rates sort of around

mortgage rates. You know, I can remember paying mortgage rates were very similar to what they were today, but certainly we got used to free money and and and I also see that about you know, and we see this in terms of investor interest in in in person is like, oh, wow, you're a real company with real sales and real cash flow and real profits. Wow, well, Andy, talk about your business right educational or like how resilient is it to recessions?

We're actually counter cyclical historically, whether it's inflation, unemployment. You know, people turn. You see college admissions go up, for example. You know. The other the other thing about Pierson is that we're a lot more than educational textbook. You know. I think what's unique about the business is we and what attracted me to the business and your referenced you know, Disney in many ways. When I came, I joined the

board of Pierson before I became CEO. And you know, it's this continuum from the creation of intellectual property, which we do. Used to be the form of a textbook, it's now digital. That's I find a very interesting area all the way through assessments and ultimately to certification, verification, and we're seeing you know, the world move to you know, skills based learning. You know this this notion of how

you redefine higher education. Well, let's go there, because Tim and I have a lot of conversations and even with heads of colleges universities who are also thinking, like I don't know if the four year program makes anymore our former heads and I do wonder are you seeing signs increasingly where that model is kind of coming and done, or people are going and getting maybe an associates or a couple of years going to work, coming back, going

for other certifications. What insight can you tell us about that? I mean it, we're currently in the back to school period, and we'll have enrollment data for for this season in four or five weeks time, and so we'll have a better picture then. Certainly, the last couple of years has

seen declines in US higher ed college enrollments. How much of that was cyclical or driven through by the pandemic, how much of it is is a permanent you know, I I tend to think of it in the following ways that you know, when I graduated from high school, if I wanted to further my higher education, I only had one door to go through that was university or college. Now there's two. You know, there's enterprise learning and there's

institutional learning. And I've I've said in the pat I think some of the biggest universities in the world arguably now our institutions. You look what Amazon is doing, for example, you know where if you're working, if you're one of their one million workers in a fulfillment warehouse, you know,

Amazon will pay for your college education. And that I think also plays into this hybrid mix of two year versus four year, the role of community colleges in the mix, saying if you're a barrista at Starbucks, you know, this notion of an individual understanding the importance of learning and the way that now technology allows us to deliver learning. I think it's going to have a profound impact. I think we're just at the start of a quite frankly

a revolution. We want to talk more about what you're doing here a Pierson, but we were just talking about Disney a little bit. How do you think about that company the impact has had on you as how you think about what you want to do at Pierson talked to us a little bit about at that time it had a profound impact on my life and my family's life.

I moved from the UK to Los Angeles. I had the you know, the immense good fortune to work for Bob Iger for those fourteen years and really, you know, be part of a transformation which is very similar to what we're doing it Piers, and from you know, back in two thousand and to two thousand three when I joined Disney, and you know, Disney start was twelve bucks something and change. People sometimes forget that, and you know, the journey from the acquisition of Pixar and Marvel to

Lucas and beyond. When I joined the Border Pierson, I went, wow, there's so many similarities with this company and Disney. But whereas Disney as the world's leading entertainment company, you know, Pierson can become the world leading learning company. So let's

keep the comparison going. If you look at the way that Disney transformed itself into a company that has really been a powerhouse over well the last decade more so than at any other time, with theme parks and the acquisition of Lucasfilm and other companies that have done really well for it um in transition to streaming as well. How do you take what you learned at Disney and apply that at Pearson for its own transformation. So that

at the heart of both companies is intellectual property. I think that is so powerful and we content content is so so important, and so that and the heart of Pierson is intellectual property. You know, it's it used to take the form of textbooks. It's now far more interactive.

You it's vis video, graphics, audio, who are talking about the ways that you can ultimately it will go into virtual reality, in the metaverse and beyond the way that technology is allowing the delivery of learning experiences is radically changing. And at the heart of our company is you know,

we have over five thousand authors. You create a content creators, we have that learning ecosystem, and then you start to put that out with distribution, the ability for us now to go direct to a consumer, you know, with the you know, we launched person plus for US college students twelve months ago and in twelve months got four and a half million registered users. Yeah, that's not many start ups do that, right, So, how does you mentioned metaverse?

It's going to be difficult as they transition to metaverse. It's not an easy transition, not everybody's buying in. Investors certainly are How do you think about things like the metaverse? How do you plan for it today when there's still so many questions? How do you think about things like n f T s and that probably plays to content right in proprietary Yes, yes, you know in a way if you break down, deconstruct the textbook, which are able to do now, and think about learning modules rather than

chapters of text. They can be pieces of audio, pieces of video, and if you meant each of those to ensure that the author of that, the creator of that content, and by placing on blockchain, gets paid appropriately throughout its life. Do you need the blockchain to do that? No, but the blockchain makes it a lot easier. So it's really

realties are really complex. So this this actually simplifies the right. Yes, it's because I have yet to I'll be honest with you, I've yet to hear a very compelling case for the blockchain loyalty. Can I get blockchain more than I get some other Yeah? Yeah, But I mean, you know, this technology has been around for more than a dozen years. I mean, how has it actually made our lives? Well? I think it gets crowded or clouded rather by the whole crypto noise. But under the crypto okay, I mean

I would say skeptic too. I'm very interested in that. But but then you know, if you think and you move forward and you think of learning and technology, virtual reality and everything like that, that plays right into learning. But you can't make bet today. I like the metaverse. But you can be curious, okay, but you run a publicly held company. How curious, kid? We can be very curious. And we have a whole team and all they're doing. I participated in a in an innovation in house innovation.

We had eight entries from across the company around applications for the metaverse, and we're going to take some of those forward. All right. I cannot believe that we've run through our time. I'm like blown away. We've got thirty seconds left here. I'm going to yell that if I don't ask you this question. And I know you were with our editorial board team and talking about things Apolloglobal third three offers, you guys said, turn and turn them down?

Are you going to stay independent? What are you gonna do? Real quickly, very quickly? I mean, yes, we did. It was all very public. They offered eight pound seventy. I think our stock is trading at around eight pound seventy if you look in pounds sterling, given everything else that's going on, and I think, if anything, you know, their approach validated our strategy and validated the great prospects that this company has. But the right right, maybe I'm very

happy doing what we're doing. I focus on delivering results. The next seating Expectations. That was Pierson's CEO, Andy birrd Well. That wraps up the first hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol Masser and I'm Tim Stanovic. Ahead in our next hour, how the success of the world's most visible drug maker has left investors impatient for an encore. This is really more than blockbuster status. This is literally half their business this

given year, and it's a major success. But the question is are they a victim of their own success? And what happens after you ride the roller coaster all the way up? Plus former pro poker player and author Anie Duke a knowing when to quit, not just in poker but in life. The thing is obviously that the more uncertainty there is, the harder it is to figure out that you're supposed to quit, and more importantly, the easier

it is to rationalize that you should keep going. So when there's lots of uncertainty, like you know in the startup world, it's easy to say it's just around the corner, like next quarters when I'm going to start acquiring customers, I'm going to start accruing net new a r R that's going to show me that I'm successful. You've got to get people to help you with the decision. That's

all coming up. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine plus global business, finance and tech news. As it happened. Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio.

Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including something Old, Something New, Something Poker, and something huge in the Nevada Desert that's later in Bloomberg Pursuits. As for the Something Old, Fiser, the more than fifty year old company it provided a lifeline and make some big profits thanks to its COVID vaccines. As for something new, we're going to talk cryptocurrencies and the millions that got away under the glare of those in

law enforcement. Well, speaking of Glaire, we'll paint the picture of the massive, nu mental and epic artwork in the middle of the harsh Nevada desert. That's are something huge. Didn't you like what I did? I did something? Yeah? Is that like something you know, Anniversary's wedding things? Yes, it is. Well. First up this hour, though, we have to talk about Fiser. It's the lead story in the business section of the magazine. It was also Bloomberg Big

Take this past week. It's about the next chapter for the pharmaceutical giant after the success of its COVID vaccine has left investors wanting more. Back with us as the editor of Bloomberg Business Week, Joel Weber, along with the reporter on the story, Bloomberg News US Healthcare reporter Riley Griffin. This is poised to be the best year on record for Fiser. It's expecting over a hundred billion in revenue, and more than half of that is coming from the

COVID nineteen vaccine and its pill. So this is really more than blockbuster status. This is literally half their business this given year, and it's a major success. But the question is are they a victim of their own success? And what happens after you ride the roller coaster all the way up? So, Riley, if you've got this blockbuster success, um, it starts to actually sound like Hollywood a little bit.

You know, you just become a blockbuster factory, but you've got to be kind of like seen around the corner, like what kind of what kind of bets don't we know about yet? Yeah, Fiser is hoping that they can take the messenger RNA technology behind its COVID nineteen vaccine and apply that to other disease areas to um continue to turn out blockbusters. Next year, we should expect to see data from its m r and A flu vaccine,

and after that they're working on shingles. They're trying to tackle cancer and rare diseases through messenger are and A. But there are a lot of questions as to whether or not any of those products can reap the same kind of success we've seen from the COVID nineteen vaccine and couple that with some major generic competition that Fiser is facing before the end of the decade, they've got

a lot of questions to answer to Wall Street. You know, we spent the last two years talking about m RNA, But what does an m r and a flu shot do that's better than a traditional flu shot, which, by the way, it's flu shot season everyone, It is flu shot season. So the hope that Fiser and its competitor Maderna have here is that they can really compress the

production timeline for a shot. Part of the issue that flu shots aren't as good as we'd really like them to be is that ultimately scientists around the world they can bene twice a year, once for the northern hemisphere, once for the southern hemisphere, they have to give quite a bit of lead time to be able to produce those products, and as we now know with covid, virus

is mutate to survive. Influenza is pretty good at doing that too, and so ultimately, over that long period, the virus tends to change and the vaccine is often less effective than we would hope. So Fiser is hoping it can take that same model that we saw with covid and apply that to flu and ultimately get a more

effective flu shot. Okay, so even if they do that, though, I mean COVID, these numbers were insane, Like what, there's a reality here, you know, maybe a bullish projection and then something something a little smaller than that, Like what do the what do analysts have to say about what what the bottom line will look like at fights are going forward? Wall Street doesn't feel too bullish about Fighter

right now. The stock is down to date this year, and I think that you know, if you follow the projections for the COVID vaccine next year and through, it goes from you know, about thirty seven billion last year to what analysts think is about ten billion in So this is a big question. They're gonna have to fill that gap, and their internal Messenger RNA pipeline is simply not going to be enough. Fiser is saying that they actually want to add twenty five billion in revenue just

via M and A throe. So we should expect a great number of deals. And they're not doing this in a vacuum. I mean, everybody else has got the you know, Messenger rn A memos. At this point, they're all going to be competing for top you know, talent, you know, for startups that might have something innovative in this space. So they've got to do this against this backdrop and also against a backdrop of a company that was known for like building the top and bottom line by acquisition.

No doubt, you've got Maderna, You've got bion Tech. It's very own partner that is a real expert in this space. But you also have other players like Eli Lily right, um that just spent seven hundred million dollars to try to create a genetic medicines facility in Boston. So even if you haven't heard of certain m R and A players, um, a lot of these bigger companies, say Fiser isn't the

only one. I actually spoke with the chief scientific officer of Eli Lilly and they said, you know, with something like Messenger and A, it's a technology, it's a platform. You should expect every pharmaceutical company to use that same technology as one of the fundamental pillars of building out a drug business moving forward. Okay, so what you know, boosters still going to be a part of the business

going forward. We would think, right, and like, there is that version of this where your booster and your flu shot, like all magically become one and we use Marne. That sounds great, got it, Joe? Yeah, you know, gonna wait, won't be happening this year. I have to wait two weeks from getting my covid booster to get my flu booster. So just arms flendar. But you know, say these things stay separate even like what what does that? What does

that business look like? Are they Is there a conversation about keeping these things separate, and maybe that's more lucrative than if they're one. So ultimately, Fiser has said that it wants to do a flu and covid combo, but I think we're still a couple of years away from that. We need that that flu shot, that messenger on a flu shot to come to market first, and and the earliest state is next or earliest timeframe is next year

for them to be able to do that. But look at uptake of boosters now, I mean, Bloomberg Intelligence put out a memo today um showing that only two point seven percent of the US population has gotten a visor or maderna by valent COVID booster, So uptake is increasingly waning. Thanks to Bloomberg Business Week editor Joel Webber in US healthcare reporter Riley Griffin. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week.

Coming up, the FED locked up a storage device full of illegitimate crypto tokens, and then someone actually stole the loot. We'll get more on that right after this. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business This Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stenovik from Bloomberg Radio. A really good read in the finance section of the magazine this week details how millions of dollars worth of cryptocurrency just vanished as federal agents watched helplessly. The story was written

by David Vorriakos of Bloomberg News and edited by Pat mcneer. Pats, the markets and finance editor for the magazine, Patten Business. We get her, Joel Webber. They are here to help break down the scheme and talk a little bit about it's blowback. Remotely swiping bitcoin that's been seized by the government that doesn't like totally make sense. You would think that couldn't do such a thing, but it turns out

maybe you could. Pat, So what happened? Yeah, So the first thing I asked David when I read an early draft of the story, was so the FEDS had basically sees these things that kind of look like a small hard driver, actually they kind of look like an MP three player and put it in a storage locker. And I asked the dumb questions, So why didn't they just unplug it? Um? Uh, it's not that simple, and the

FEDS knew it isn't that simple. Uh, you know what's actually on one of these storage devices is really just uh series of cryptographic private keys Bitcoin of course crypto with on the blockchain, and um, if you have the right set of passwords, you can reconstruct all those keys somewhere else. So when the FEDS basically seized this cash of bitcoin as evidence in a money laundering case, um, they knew from the get go that, uh, this money

was very vulnerable to being taken. So they were kind of like watching on the blockchain what was happening with these wallets, and um they very quickly uh saw those coins going away. So what what's what's also interesting here? So this arrest, Let's talk about Larry because there are uh, there are people uh in the story and in crypto or memorable Larry might be one of them. Um uh, something of a milestone, just kidding, except for your dad,

but you've referred to it. But in David's where there's something of a milestone in crypto enforcement. What the first character in the story, Warry ran what's called a tumbler or a mixer. So basically, this is a thing that you can use to if you want to sort of make your cryptocurrency transaction truly private, right, because you can always see addresses on the blockchain, and if you can kind of stitch together and that information, you can kind of figure out where a bit of bitcoin came from.

There are these services called mixers and tone where is where you sort of like it's what it sounds like, right, you just would have mixed together a lot of cryptocurrency and and then spit them out in different ways so that you can't find it. I'm visualizing pat like a rock tumbler that you had when you're a kid, and I think that's I don't know, is perhaps that's where the name comes from. Right, You put a bunch of rocks in, you let it set for a month, and

the rocks that come out look completely different. Yeah, yeah, I think that I think that's basically right, or you're just sort of you're you're stirring everything together so that you can't figure out sort of where where they came from. And that's not per se illegal, but as with a lot of things in money wondering, you know, running a secret car watch isn't necessarily illegal either, but if you're doing it to hide where the money is coming from,

then that's what's happening. So the Feds win after our first character, Larry, for for basically money wandering, um. And then suddenly the money began to disappear, and they started asking, okay, so who's actually taking the money out of it? And um. Ultimately they decided they've actually accused not Larry but his brother Gary of doing that. And so I can't make

this up, right Hilary and Gary. So Gary is still awaiting trial, we should say, so this is not this is an allegation, but they're looking at uh sort of they've they've been following the money. Well, speaking of following the money, I cannot do an interview with you, Pat without talking about this picture of Gary Harmon that's featured in a tub full of money. Uh. This is a picture that the U. S. District Court for the District

of Columbia has. What's going on here? Well, so that's a picture that prosecutors found on his phone, um, And basically they were collecting evidence that he had come into money. So they're sort of looking at that and saying, it's like, it looks like this guy, Um, suddenly, you know, had had a fair had a fair amount of money. So

that's nothing only he's bathing in cash. To be fair, it does look if you look closely, mostly one dollar bills, maybe a couple of two dollar bills in there, Like Grandma, you're saying, like like six hundred bucks at the most. Here Joel, it looks a little bit less than that. But is this what you to do for your birthday? I mean, it certainly seems like a good idea. Don't take a photo of it? Right, So how do this all kind of unfold? I mean? And how it all

came to be? So, you know, our reporter David vyakas mean, he's always sort of like watching court cases, and so he's been, you know, sort of looking at how these cases have been moving through court. But what this is, this is really a case of like in the early. You know, there are people who want to use bitcoin to make transactions that maybe you shouldn't be making. UM and uh, there's a place called the darknet where people do that, sort of a part of the Internet that's

not easily accessible on Google. And so first of all, you're connecting in buyers and sellers. But then the question is, so how do the buyers since sellers pay for the things that you're not supposed to be paying for. Bitcoin is one way, but as we've just discussed, it's not perfectly anonymous. There are services that are actually very good at following the bread crumbs. So, uh, Larry Herman's innovation was finding a way to obscure those transactions, and it

was very successful and it got the government's attention. And as as you know, it's not this is not the only service that's gotten the government's attention since then, right, you know, there's a there's another one called Tornado Cash, and I think a lot of people who are in this um are asking like, how how long will these mixers be around? So we've got some interesting people and there's a hard drive full of bitcoin, Bitcoin now worse

more than it was. Then, What what did law enforcement observe. They've got the devices in a locker, but what they what you really want to watch where the action is on the blockchain, and so you're looking at wallets. So they had a list of like sixteen wallets. What does

the wallet look like? I mean, you're just looking at an address for a bunch of numbers and then there's just a certain number of bitcoin assigned to it, and then they could begin to see like those bitcoin, we're just going away or they were getting transactual way and like you know, and um, so you should have unplugged the hard drive. You should have unplugged hard drive. As we said, it doesn't really matter whether you un wondering

that's what I was wondering. If if if you if you do have one of these USB like our old school you know, MP three player type things, and that's what you store your bitcoin on, does that mean it's not safe? Like it can still be accessed because it's well, what everyone in crypto will tell you the most important thing is to never give away your seed phrase. So seed phrase is a thing that can be used to basically reconstruct raven lands at midnight. So that's not mine.

So is that what you mean, do you it's it's it's something literally like, um, a bunch of random numbers, you know, or I'm sorry, not a bunch of randrooms. A string of random words. There's usually twelve, sometimes twenty four. And um, I am not an expert on how the cryptography works, but it's cryptographically related to I believe the

private keys that you're using. And so if you enter that seed phrase and this this, this is not just with the hardware, while this is with a software whallet, that seed phrase is the thing that's it's it's the key to everything. That was Bloomberg business Week Markets and Finance editor Pat Regnier alongside Bloomberg business Week editor Joel Webber. All right, still to come on Bloomberg business Week. We might think that quitters never win and winners never quit,

but the truth is winners quit a lot. Carol You and Ed Ludlow spoke with former pro poker player and author Any Duke and how the art of quitting is something that extends far beyond the poker table. That's coming

up next. This is Bloomberg Broadcasting from the financial capital of the world, Bloomberg eleven Frio in New York to Washington, d C. Bloomberg to Boston, Bloomberg one, O six one to San Francisco, Bloomberg nine sixty to the country, Sirius XM General one nine and around the globe, the Bloomberg Business and Bloomberg Radio dot Com. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes. Tim Stenovan on Bloomberg Radio. I'm not sure about you, but I

grew up with parents that stress. Not giving up easily or at all, to be quite honest, not walking away from things and yet learning to do just that may be a very very important life lesson. And our next guest writes about that. Yeah, we're talking about the former professional poker player Annie Duke. She's also the best selling author of Thinking in Bets and the co founder of the Alliance for Decision Education. It's a nonprofit that has

the mission of empowering students through decision skills. The latest book, Quit, The Power of Knowing When to Walk Away, has a lot of advice when it comes to making tough choices, and not just at the poker table. She spoke with Blueberg News West Coast correspondent Ed Ludlow and myself. I think there's just a really interesting conversation to be had between poker, which is this very high stakes decision making under uncertainty exercise, and cognitive science, which is thinking about,

you know, how do we make decisions? And I think that the two disciplines can really inform each other. So, you know, the way I started thinking about quitting was that realizing that the option to quit, that option is so incredibly valuable in poker, because if you couldn't fold your hand, it wouldn't really be that skillful game, right, and poker players have to really think about how to

get good at cut and their losses. And actually, when you look at the difference between elite players and merely okay, one one of the biggest differences between amateurs and experts and poker is how often they fold. When you just look at they get their first two card combination in a game of Texas hold them, amateurs will play over fifty of their hands, so they're folding less than half

the time, whereas experts are playing about fifteen. You were one of the top poker players for twenty years, right, and you've written this book, and it's hard to get one's head around the strength of being able to walk away. Talk me through the psychology of that. So here's the thing. Whenever we make a decision, we don't have all the facts, and luck is going to influence the outcome. So I'm sure you've had that feeling d of Oh, I wish I knew then what I know now. I might have

made a daily basis of course, right. I mean, look at what's happening with the market right like you're You're finding out information very rapidly every single day. So this is where the option to equip become so valuable because it'll allows us to start things even though we don't have all the facts. That we know very little, because we know theoretically that when we find out new information, we can actually change our minds and we can change course.

The problem for us as decision makers, though, is that that decision is itself made under uncertainty. I got to cool you out on that though, because you are also a venture capitalists, and this is what fascinates me. You're a seed stage venture capitalist, right, you invest in many companies, not all of them are going to be successful. How do you say, right? I have to say no, I have to walk away from this potential opportunity, So you have to be thinking in a structured way about the decision.

So essentially you're taking all of your experience and you are thinking about what are the signals that I see that tell me that an investment is worthwhile? And then you have to systematize that. So, as an example, let's say that you know at Seed what you care about. What's the quality of the market, what's the quality of the product, what's quality of the founder, what's quality of

the team. You have to be systematic and making very clear and precise ratings of those things every time a founder comes into pitch, and then you also have to be thinking ahead. And by doing that, what it allows you to do, first of all, is to overcome some bias, and you're creating a record that then allows you, as you see how those companies do, to go back and check on them and say, what was I thinking at

the time, and like, how were my forecasts? You know, I was looking at your book and you're right, you know. We need to redefine what failed and wasted means. You know, when we worry so much about quitting, and that quitting means that we failed. What exactly are we failing at If you quit something that's no longer worth pursuing, that's not a failure of that's a success. Talk about Anie turning it upside down. So the problem, Carol, is that

we tend to think about waste as a backward looking problem. Right, So we're worried if we are in a job and it doesn't work out and we have to quit and walk away, that we'll have wasted our time in it. So these have to do with like resources that we've already sunk into this, And this is part of the sunk cost fallacy prevents us from walking away because that's the moment that you go from failing to having failed.

That's the moment you go from having a ten dollar loss on the books to having a realized ten dollar loss or a sure loss of ten dollars. And the problem with that backward looking perspective is that it causes you to put more time, effort, and money into something that isn't worthwhile. Was there a real life lesson that you learned where you didn't quit when you should have? Oh my gosh, absolutely so. I think I, like most people, have stuck to things too long. I should have quit

poker earlier. I wasn't happy. And the other thing was that the game was changing in a way where players were getting way better than me, and I, honestly, at that point in my career didn't want to put in the time to keep up. And so I think I took too long to get to that decision. And I think part of the reason why, and this is a really important lesson, is that when your identity is wrapped up in it, but I was a poker player, I

think it becomes very, very hard to walk away. And we need to be thinking about that in these types of decisions. Is is it because you know, am I happy? Or is it because I feel like it's kind of who I am. That's former professional poker player and author Annie Duke. Be sure to check out her latest book, Quit, The Power of Knowing When to walk Away gets out. Now, Do you know when to quit? Don't? It's hard? Yeah, it's really hard. All right. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week.

Coming up, we talk desert art and New York City co ops as we take on the pursuit section of the magazine. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovich from Bloomberg Radio. Every new walk is like a new piece of box. It does in different stories to tell the time. Wines as a whole really speak to that quintessential Need is the most powerful car made in the US period. You get the beautiful interior, the iconic design.

It's very chee and pos even if you be for it. It's something that when I can get Tom Neper a weekly dive into the Pursuit section of Bloomberg Business Week magazine. So happy to have with us Bloomberg Business Week Arts columnist James Tarmy. I believe he's arts extraordinary, is it? Yeah? He can be whatever he wants. And this is a space where we can come up with our own titles.

So James welcome. You've got the lead story in this week's Pursuits section in which you ventured out in the vast Nevada desert to explore artists Michael Heiser's two ninety nine acre work of art. It's called City. Yes, James is here. We also have the editor of the Pursuits section World Chris Rouser. He is with us um alright. So first of all, all right, who found out about this first? So James has been working on this, uh for a very long time. The artist Michael Heiser is reclusive.

He's been working on this for decades. Uh. And it's very hard. It was very hard to get access to it. But James has been working on it for a really long time. And one is one of the first humans to actually have ventured inside. Why is it so hard to get access to you can't you just drive up and like sneak in. This thing is huge. I just want to know, you said first humans? Are you telling me like a terrestrial people? I mean, if you've been there, that's what it looks like. Well. And also it's very

close to Area fifty one. Actually, the conspiracy theories, it is around three hours north of Las Vegas. You've got to drive for an hour and a half to a small town called Alamo, and then there's a driver who picks you up, puts you in a big suv, drives you through the desert for another hour and a half into something that resembles the middle of nowhere. It's this vast Nevada plane with mountain ranges and it's actually on a private ranch, so you definitely cannot just sort of

drive up and see it. And lots of people have actually tried, and lots of people have actually failed. But the artist Michael Heiser, who's been working on this for fifty years, has finally decided that it's open to the public, if not complete fifty years, that's incredible. What I what I love about that is that he was thinking about this before. And I hate to say this, but anyone who's traveled anywhere over the last five years, it's like

just people with their phones taking photos for Instagram. Well, I'm like very concerned that's been like this could easily turn into that. You don't need to worry because I had to sign several legal forms saying that I wasn't allowed to take photographs and hey, their photos in here, they're great. Yes, well I didn't take them, unfortunately, But you know what I what I will say is that it is not a place that photographs will because it's

so vast that it doesn't look cute in shots. But when you're there, the actual experience of being there is overwhelming. So describe it for us. What is it, what does it look like, and what does it feel like, so you drive up to this ranch and it doesn't actually look like very much when you get there, because the majority of this structure, which is over a mile and a half long, half a mile wide, right, I mean

this is more than half of Central Park. So you get there and the majority of it has been excavated, so you actually walk down into it and it's these undulating rolling valleys and crescents and stadia um covered in two different kinds of ground ale with these concrete curbs that are sort of decorative but also sort of delineate

large pebbles from small pebbles. It's very weird. And then there are two colossal and when I say colossal, actually mean colossal, but the word is thrown around quite casually these days. But these things are seventy feet high, I mean humongous. These sculptures at either end, and the entire work can be conceived of as a sculpture too, So you just sort of wander through for hours. I mean, it takes a really long time to get from one end to the other, and it's this kind of all

encompassing experience. It's also ever changing, right, because of the materials, It's been changed a lot because Michael Heiser keeps changing it. But the idea is actually that it's going to stay basically the same. A lot of it is concrete. It has around a million dollar operating budget every year to just maintain the place. It's supposed to stay the way

that it is. That being said, Nevada and the Nevada Desert is a pretty harsh place, and so invariably things are going to happen to it that sort of change the way that it looks and feels. So Heiser is part of of the land art movement, right, and some land ar is meant to decay and fade away like spiral jetty. People might be familiar with. Tell us a little bit about the movements. Um and then also what these sculptures look like. It's very interesting because in pictures

they look like something really specific. They look like kind of giant sort of abstract chess pieces or sun dials. They're like triangles, exactly triangle squares modern day stonehegees, Yeah, And then there's another sculpture that sort of looks like this really long bunker, and then there's this other part that sort of looks like a pyramid. But then you get there, and it's reminiscent of all of these things.

So there's but it actually doesn't look like anything that you've seen before, which is obviously a bit of a trial to explain it to people with without the photographs. But in reality it looks otherworldly but also like this incredible monumental relic. What's pretty amazing about this, James, is that you said he's been working on it since nineteen seventy. It's still not done in his mind. It's not, but it feels pretty complete when you got there. What's not

done about it in his mind? Um? I think that so he didn't have a master plan, so he as you got more money, or as you got any money, um, he would periodically updated and expand it, and it would grow. There wasn't a sort of overarching strategy for it, and I think in his mind it can keep growing in a sort of organic way and he can keep modifying the existing parts of it once it actually continues to expand.

That being said, um, a lot of people seem to feel that it's done, and being there myself, it definitely felt like a cogent, sort of clear work of art. And sorry, if you want to go see it what this year because she can't. Well, so a couple of thousand people applied in the first week that it was said to be open. Six people can visit it at a time, no more per his instructions, um and something for the masses everybody. Well, you know, and it feels

like it should be. But I understand. Yeah, the thing is that you want to be there by yourself. Like the minute that becomes an amusement park is the minute it doesn't have this kind of other worldly sense of contemplation. What is it costs that negotiate around a hundred and fifty dollars for general tickets in theory, but currently they're not really charging anyone anything to show up, and anyone in the surrounding counties can go for free. All right.

I would love to actually just keep talking about this, but I do feel like we have to go from those massive monuments to the elite buildings known as co ops, a different kind of monument in some people's minds. Tell us about this story, Well, how come co ops, Chris, This is a bit of a city and country especial. We've we've reviewed two hotels where and Michael Heiser's artwork is called city. It's and uh so we thought, really, let's get into um commentary on the city, and then like,

let's do our own commentary on the city. And these are perceived to be relics from a different time. So just generally speaking, the kind of best co ops in New York City or on the Upper East Side and on Central Park West on the West Side, and they are places that are owned by their shareholders, which means that everyone who lives in these buildings has a financial

responsibility to maintain them. And what that has ultimately led to for decades is super super super restrictive entry requirements to actually get in, and the co upboard can just say no, they can't be a part of ours. But this is a thing that people outside of New York City have no idea how how they work. I mean, we're talking about buildings where you have to pay in all cash in order to actually buy a place there, and you're not even actually buying the place, you're buying

shares in the building. And to be clear, all cash to the tune of tens of millions of dollars, and oftentimes there's a requirement that you have tens of million dollars left in your bank account. What's great about that is what's great about that is um it comes with all these amenities, usually like a brand new pool, a state of the art gym, was right right right? Yeah? Terrorist none of that? Wait what no central air all the time? That would be that would be this is insane,

This is completely crazy. Didn't a co op turn down Madonna way? That's the Bearsford famously famously fun. That being said, this is not a piece about how awful co ops are.

This is a piece about how co ops, very very slowly have sort of woken up and realized that they are being left in the dust by super high end condominiums where you just simply own your apartment out right, very different less restrictions, and co ops have basically decided that they are going to lower the entry requirements ever so slightly in an effort to not only raise their property values but also get a different generation of people inside. Hence the co op flip flip flap. Even co op

flip flaps say that five times fast. But hey, we only have about a minute or so, Chris, what else is in h I know there's a place Tim is dying to go to that I'm not going to be able to go okay, So there's We have two hotel reviews. The first is Wildflower Farm, which is a new Oh Bears resort upstate, which is uh a, it's a sort of a working farm. You can go feed chickens, you can go feed pigs. Are Jim Gaddy went and reviewed it said it's very luxurious. You can spend a thousand

dollars a night to feed those those chickens. And then Hannah Elliott, who is, as you know, the coolest person in the world, who's also nice. Um, we had her fly into from l A to review the Chelsea Hotel, which is which has been resurrected. It's still full of ghosts. It's you know, the famous hotel where Arthur Miller stay, Leonard Cohen, Patti Smith and Robert and Robert Mayblethorpe were roommates there. It's been closed for many years and being

been been renovated. It's been a hundred million dollars renovating it and now it's it's this kind of combo of glamorous and also kind of crappy, like it really feels like it should be uh and handled loved it and rooms there started at about a night, so it's a little cheaper than the wild Flower. Oh my god, what a great section. You guys really loved it and loved reading through and it. Thank you so much. Yeah, big thank you to Bloomberg Business Week Arts columns James Tarmy

and Bloomberg Pursuits editor Chris Rouser. Thanks so much, guys, And that wraps up the weekend edition to Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol Master, thanks so much for joining us, and I'm Tim Snanovik. Be sure to tune into Bloomberg Business Week Monday through Friday, starting at two pm Wall Street Time on Bloomberg Radio. You can also watch our daily broadcast on YouTube. Just search Bloomberg Global News and check out our Bloomberg Business Week podcast.

You can find that at Bloomberg dot com, Apple, or wherever you get your podcast. Bloomberg Business Week is available on newstands now, at Bloomberg dot com and on the Bloomberg Terminal. You can also see me on Bloomberg Quick Take, available on Bloomberg dot com, slash qt, and streaming platforms like Roku, Apple TV, Samsung TV, and more. Have a great weekend, everyone day, say this, this Bloomberg