This is Bloomberg Business Week inside from the reporters and editors who bring you America's most trusted business magazine, plus global business, finance and tech news. The Bloomberg Business Week Podcast with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebeck from Bloomberg Radio.
Hi, everyone, Welcome to the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. Carol Masser along with Matt Miller, who's filling in for Tim. Coming off a holiday shortened trading week following Independence Day in the US, so some are off and running, and with that we have some great summer reads courtesy of the Heist Issue. The annual double issue is available now on newstanmds, online at Bloomberg dot com, slash Businessweekend, of course,
always on the Bloomberg terminal. Now. A bit later on, we'll talk to Way's co founder and serial entrepreneur Ory Levine for his insight on how to find the best use cases for artificial intelligence technology. And speaking of entrepreneurs, the co founders of Duke and Dame Salted Caramel Flavored Whiskey detail their journey from finance to the spirit's business.
All of that to come, though, We begin with that dive into the twenty twenty three Heist issue now and it's fifty year full of stories of intrigue, thievery and scams. Good guys, bad guys. We got an overview with Bloomberg BusinessWeek Features editor Jeremy Kean and the editor of Bloomberg business Week, Joe Weber.
We go cover to cover in Heist.
There are you know, sortied tales, There are cliffhangers, there are ongoing mysteries. There are bank rubbers who are bad guys, or a bank rubbers.
Who are maybe not bad guys.
It's got it all. Jeremie Keane puts it all together. We wrote these stories out over the course of a week. So if Business Week kind of a shark week, this is it.
I think it's so cool.
But the thing is, when I first thought about it, when I first heard the concept, I thought cool because I want to someday be part of a heist.
Right.
I think we all you might regret that we all sort of do.
But some of these thieves are really bad people, Like we talked about one of the stories yesterday made me very angry, like who steals benefits from the poorest people in America?
Sad?
Right?
Yeah?
Yes, And that and what feels really challenging about that one is all it would take is the government to put a little chip in a card and it would protect but because it's still a swipe, and we all know how vulnerable those ATM cards can be. Like some of the most vulnerable people don't have anybody having in their back. So the story's go in many different directions. Like I said before, Jeremy Keene is the architect of the issue and decide what goes what's not in the issue.
One little fun fact, I know you read this one already. Jeremy did a story wrote for almost a year now. Jeremy, you've been working on this thing, right, put a filter in place to basically track all the crazy, weird stuff.
That has been stolen since.
Our last heist issue a year ago. Jeremy, what was your single favorite thing on that list?
I think that would have to be foot statue of Gary the gorilla that was stolen from a garden center in Scotland. And one of the nice things when you drink you drill down into the into these news of the weird type stories and one of the things that's great is there's always additional little nuggets that are great.
And one of my favorite things about that one was was after police asked people to call in with tips, people were saying, oh, I spotted this eight foot gorilla statue going down the highway, and they pointed out that in fact it was Gary's twin brother that was made by the same company, but not Gary. Gary remains missing.
What about the morgue, Oh yeah.
That's I mean, that's really quite a story. That's that's ongoing. In fact, I think one of some of the main people were just just pleaded not guilty in court a couple of days ago. This was the Harvard Medical School. The main morgue manager has been accused by the government of running a trafficking ring in cadaver parts, allegedly selling to other people who are using them. In one case, the allegation is in I think art might be a strong word for it, but some pretty grim crafts.
And hey, one man's trash is another man's treasure.
A law and order for you know episode, it's really cool.
So I'm gonna do a thing here. One of the things I'm going to link this story to another story.
You ready for this?
Yes, there was an Oscar Mayer Wienermobile that lost a part.
Matt, do you know what part it lost?
It was stolen by thieves, the steering wheel.
It was the catalytic converter.
Ah, yes, because of the platinum and palladium.
So they got that whole patch continued on to its scheduled event. I'm going to link this story to another one that was all about catalytic converter thefts, and we went big on this one. It's one of the longest stories we've ever published, definitely in the Heist issue.
But I just.
Tell you quickly, we don't call it the Oscar Mayer Wiener Mobile anymore. Oh it's been there's a new politically correct name. It's I think they really They renamed it the Frank Mobile.
Okay, well, yes, yeah, so the Frankmobile lost its catalytic converter.
That relates directly to this other story we did.
We have for the past couple of years, keep seeing these headlines about all these catalytic converter thefts that have been happening across the country and in parking lot.
After parking lot.
Thieves were going in saws alls, climbing under vehicles, removing catalytic converters. And it turns out that was all because there are rare earths inside the catalytic converter that could be basically reprocessed, and thieves were making thousands of dollars off of them based on the.
Model could be much more lucrative than others.
What Evan showed wasn't just the trees that this had been happening in one off's all over the place. There's a forest of a story here. Tulsa Police Department brought down half a billion dollar crime ring that was built on your catalytic converters. I don't know for sure if the frankmobiles ended up there or not. That didn't affect it into that narrative. But Jeremy, what was so impressive to you about that story?
First of all, it seems like almost every everybody you know knows somebody who's had the converter off their car stolen because they've become so valuable over the past five or so years, maybe longer. But it was also really fascinating to see the kind of illicit supply chain and the way that it ran, you know, through supposedly this a chop shop in New Jersey and then and then carrying on too Asia and possibly in Japan.
I believe it was was It is like a scene out of remember the show Fargo. It's like a whole season of Fargo baked into this magazine article. For you, Jemy, what was another favorite of yours?
Certainly one of the ones that stands out is the sneaker story that looked at a Ponzi scheme for sneakers, almost the you know the alledged Yes they they Essentially we had somebody who is taking options bets on sneakers. So when a when a coveted sneaker was about to be released four months down the road, one of the big shoe companies made an announcement. This is Michael Malexadae of Zade Kicks had a business where he'd say, Okay,
we can place your orders now. This is how much we'll charge you, and in four or five months, we'll send you your shoes at the price. At a price that you know might be about what the company is selling them for. But because sneakers are now resold and their values go up depending how hot they are, if you can lock in a good price early on, you're
going to be pretty excited. So he was selling people these pre sales, and eventually he reached a shoe that was so hot as the Air Jordan Cool Gray eleven. I believe that that they couldn't. He had so many orders that it was to be impossible to fill them, and the whole business came crashing down. He himself had to what basically went to the US attorney and said, you know, I'm in over my head, and.
He went into hiding for a while, right yeah.
I mean, because he was ahead, so many people mad at.
Him, and we do not want to mess with sneaker and sneakerheads want their Air Jordan's and when they don't get them.
They get very mad.
So what's interesting about this one is he had like sixty thousand boxes worth of shoes, right Jeremy, and they're in the process of liquidating them.
Still.
The trial he got postponed actually to see how much they can actually make off his inventory that he did have.
He's in bankruptcy proceedings and they have a receiver who's essentially going through the warehouse getting basically recovering as much value as it can. You can buy some of the sneakers on eBay.
So I'll mention the other one that, I like, you're ready for this one.
I'm amazed by the way to keep they go for such a high amount of money, such cheap, kind of trashy.
We've been playing on stock x a little bit.
Anyway, how did caare you? I mean, look, some sneakers are very cool. I'm not saying that.
I'm just saying they're very inexpensive to make and often sewn together by like kids in Malaysia, I know.
So it's unbelievable.
Did they go to But then as you learned an air you know, my son steps into them and they go to a different place. Right, So I was a great, great, great movie. Okay, So the other story that I just while we were talking about the heist issue cover to cover bet reads we're trying to steal your summer here. The other one I will bring up is about the rhino.
Yeah, but this is another one that's just for the bad people do this.
Kind of stuff.
Well, okay, so the rhino is now worth more dead than alive because of the value of its horn, which gets can get about forty thousand bucks in the black market.
All this trade is illegal.
So the effort that we write about in the story is the good guys tranquilize rhinos in Africa now, many of which are in Kruger National Park, South Africa. Tranquilize them and and then actually take a chainsaw and remove the horn.
Right.
I know, it's okay, turns out horn. Just like your fingernail. It's going to grow back. Takes about five years to do so, and in that time you can keep the running a live because it's not enticing a poacher.
That was Bloomberg BusinessWeek editor Joel Weber and features editor for the magazine, Jeremy Keen Joel sticking around for our next segment. Coming up more from the heist issue, including a primer on what may be the biggest jewelry robbery ever and a scheme that siphons money from recipients of public assistance.
Because millions of dollars of those benefits are being transferred through that really outdated technology.
A lot of it's very vulnerable.
You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app and the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.
Five years Bloomberg BusinessWeek has put out a heist issue around this time on the sordid tales of robberies and schemes, along with the characters trying to both orchestrate them and
thwart them. This issue is out now on newsstands, online at Bloomberg dot com slash Businessweekend of Course on the Bloomberg and the Magazine team brings our next story to life with a special comic style tale that explains what might be the biggest jewelry heist ever and the aftermath is still playing out in court with more Matt Miller and I welcome back the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Jill Weber and senior editor for the magazine, Brett Began.
Now, a lot of this is still a mystery.
It's still a tail that's unfolding. But what we do now is.
Basically that last July, at a pretty standard jewelry show that travels around and it was in San Mateo for three days. You had the jewelers. At the end of the show, we're packing up and they put most of their wares onto a tractor trailer that was being driven by Brinks from the jewelry show in San Mateo down to the La area.
So to be clear, this is many jewelers, like more than a dozen jewelers, but they all put their goods into one Brinks truck together, right.
Yes, that's that's more or less correct. They all put the jewels together and they're loaded on in these bags. They're seventy three bags worth of jewels loaded onto this truck in San Mateo. But you know, as they're loading the jewels on, and this came out later in depositions, but both of the drivers, both of the Brink drivers sort of saying, you know, there sort of was like some sketchy, sketchy guy kind of watching me off in
the distance. And in fact, the organizer of the show had even ushered somebody out of the show who was not supposed to be there because it was.
After five o'clock.
And the second driver sort of says, well, I also saw someone. It's not clear if it's the same person that the first driver saw. So basically they see people there who were giving them kind of like weird looks, they kind of, you know, put it to the side and get in the truck. And drive from San Mateo down to la and on the way there they stop at a at a rest stop.
Climb J rest stop to be specific.
The flying jaygress up, which and one of the drivers gets out and goes to get something to eat.
We don't know where he went.
There was either a Wendy's or I believe a dunkin Dunnuts there, We're not sure which one.
He went to.
Now he's gone for twenty seven minutes.
Now.
One thing that's interesting to point out here is that while he's going to get food, the other driver is actually in what's known as the sleeping birth So according to Department of Transportation rules, there are guidelines about how much time you have to have off as a driver. So the second driver wasn't just sitting in the passenger seat or didn't go with the first driver to get food. He's actually sort of in the back of the cab
in the sleeping berth. Driver one comes back from getting food, has gone for twenty seven minutes, notices that the tamper seal has been broken on the back of the truck.
And the lock's busted too, right, right.
Right, tamper seals gone. Lock is busted, but there's no alarm.
There's no car alarm on this truck.
Nor and that's that's where the mystery goes back to, like the pages of BusinessWeek, and you're going to have to pick it up there. What we will tell you is that there's lawsuits, right, because that's where the hest issue comes in.
A wide range of money.
Well, it's either one of the biggest jewelry heights of all time one hundred million according to the victims, or if your Brinks maybe closer to eight point seven million. We're really sorry about that, but you didn't actually declare the real value of the dude.
You can only get back what you declare.
So well, we'll see that.
We'll see about that, because maybe Brinks wasn't actually securing their vehicle like they were supposed to have, right, So this is why you have lawyers.
Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Jill Weber and Brett began with us there. We turned out to another story in the Heist issue that focuses on a scam targeting some of the poorest Americans. It details the low tech, high stakes world of robbing benefits recipients and how state and federal authorities aren't doing enough to prevent the theft. Bloomberg BusinessWeek freelance contributor Jessica Fu explains.
Those benefits are transferred on really really outdated and outdated technology, which is a very simple card that you might get from you like a Starbucks gift card, for example, or a bed Bath and Beyond gift card. No chip, no PAP, just magnetic stripe.
Because millions of dollars of those benefits are being transferred through that really outdated technology, a lot of it's very vulnerable to being stolen through really a really old school kind of theft, which is called skimming or way.
I just want to jump in.
It amazes me in this day and age, Matt, Right where you think I think about trying to do anything in the amount of security checks, and certainly when I'm doing banking or investing like anything like, there's so many different levels of security, Matt, and it isn't here.
Well on these EBT cards. There isn't right, these benefit cards that I don't know do all states use these? They're so simple and so low security, and I guess these are cards that so the state puts the money in your account and you can either use these crappy cards to withdraw money from your account in cash, or you can use them at like grocery stores to pay for formula and diapers, right, yeah.
Yeah, basically, so depending on what kind of situation you're in, you might receive cash benefits, which you can use, you know, to get cash and pay for any living expense, or you can get food benefits, and that's for people who are like a low poverty level or below poverty and those are specifically for food products, which includes infit formula for.
Example, well, crystal cork.
You start this story with a woman, a mother who is traveling across country with her children to see family, and she's already been robbed a number of times. She goes to an ATM in the middle of the night, right when the benefits are going to go into her account to try and make sure she has enough money to get back to her home in California, and sees that it's gone. Was that also an EBT card because it seems like too low security to use at an ATM.
That was an EBT card? Yeah, So all of these benefits they get transferred to their intended recipients through you know, what's called an electronic Benefits transfer card and the technology for just has never been updated since it was first introduced.
It's amazing that there's this problem and it hasn't been fixed. Who's doing it? What do we know about the criminal side of this?
Yeah, I spoke to a few different people involved with kind of trying to track down who's skimming, who's cashing out the money, who's buying and then reselling infant formula. And there's the general sense for agencies and task forces that are looking into this issue that it's very disconnected groups of people who sometimes don't even know who they're working with. It sounds like there's a real compartmentalized nature
of skimming crime these days. There are people who are involved with installing skimmers on ATMs, other people who are tasked with retriating them, other people who are tasked with cloning cards using that skim data, and others who are responsible for cashing it out and then moving money. And there's not a lot of communication, a lot of transparent and see within these networks, which makes it really tricky to unravel any kind of scheme.
That was BusinessWeek contributor Jessica fu At a reminder the heist issue pick it up on newsstands, online, and of course, on the Bloomberg Terminal. Still ahead, on Bloomberg Business Week, famed international investor John Kleinheinz details his early days in post Soviet Russia in the early nineteen nineties and how his experiences inspired a novel on the allure and dangers of a crucial period in that country's history. This is Bloomberg.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business App, and YouTube. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa Play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
New concerns emerging this past week that a Russian occupied nuclear reactor in southern Ukraine and could be the target of fresh attacks as Kiev in Moscow traded accusations over the threat of a radiological incident. As the war in Ukraine drags deep into its second straight summer, we wanted to look back at a time when a new democratic government in Russia had hoped to revolutionize the country for the better. We're talking about the early nineteen nineties just
after the fall of the Berlin Wall. Our next guest arrived there hoping to get in on the country's new wealth and ended up finding some danger as well. John Kleinhinz is the CEO of Kleinhinz Capital Partners Full disclosure. He's also the father in law of our Bloomberg colleague Kelly Belknap. John's adventures inspired a book that he co wrote with Josh Haven called The Siberia Job, and he recently joined me and Matt Miller with the background.
So I was one of the early investors in Russia during the voucher privatization in nineteen ninety four. And this was a program that was developed by the EBERD and the IMF to virtually or actually privatize all of Russian industry in one year. And it was a kind of a wild wooly time. They used the voucher program that they had developed in the Czech Republic in Hungary, and we were over there with probably one hundred investors, all
trying to find the best companies. The you know, stocks were trading at one to two percent of intrinsic value of where they would have traded if they were on a Western exchange and well run oil companies or telecom companies. So it was just a fascinating time.
And you know it's interesting is I used to do a show with Jim Rodgers, investor in commodities, and took his motorsp yeah, and who would take his motorcycle like to all the emerging markets. And I believe you went over to Russia as well, just to kind of get a scale of it, right, he was there, and you know, we would talk about it, what was that era, take us back there and what it was like to be at that very very early stage of a big change in Russia.
So it was fascinating because my wife and I were there in nineteen ninety two, a couple of years after the Berlin Wall fell and the command economy in Russia had ground to a halt. The planned economy wasn't working, The currency didn't buy anything. There were no goods in the shops or no cars on the streets in Moscow. It was really a desolute time. And then flashed forward about fourteen fifteen months later in early ninety four, the free market economy is trying to take hold. You could
buy anything you wanted with hard currency. There were hotels and restaurants opening up. Cars were on the streets, everybody had a deal, everybody was trying to either get a job or make an investment. And it was just in a very short period of time Russia just turned on and started on the road to free markets.
So I know it didn't turn out terribly well, or at least my introduction to investing in Russia was in the early two thousands when I was interviewing Bob Amsterdam a lot who was a lawyer representing Mikhail Kodakowski after Putin was for some reason angry at him and decided he was liable for twenty billion.
Dollars in tax fraud.
How long did the period last before you realized that the rule of law was going to be a really big problem.
So we put money to work early in nineteen ninety four through the voucher auctions, and by late ninety four most of those the stocks that we invested in were up eight to ten times, so it was a huge brief surge. In ninety four, ninety five, ninety six and ninety seven were great years in the markets in Russia. Companies were running themselves as much as they could, Like Western companies. Wall Street firms were opening up offices in Moscow. It looked like everything was going to plan. The ninety
eight and ninety nine percent discounts. We saw Russia stocks closed to maybe sixty or seventy percent as the markets went up. What happened in nineteen ninety eight though, really through a curveball at Russia. There was an international financial crisis that started in Asia and then moved to Russia, and the IMF did a bailout of Russia in ninety eight.
But Bob Ruben, who was Secretary of State, saw that a lot of the IMF money was being transferred from the Russian Central Bank to government officials accounts in Switzerland, and he quickly put a halt to the IMF bailout, and Russia collapsed and the banking system collapsed, and it really threw Russia into a bad spot. So that was sort of that honeymoon period for Russian markets kind of ended in nineteen ninety eight.
John, how do you see it today in terms of the Russian invasion of Ukraine? And as long as Putin is in charge, it can never go back, It can never go back.
It's an interesting deal. So Putin was Prime minister in ninety eight. Jeltsen resigned in ninety nine and replaced himself with Putin, and after Putin became president, the security services in Russia, the KGB and other intelligence services kind of kind of started to flow into the business world and become part of the private sector, and from that moment on it became less and less of a Western style
free market. You know, someone told me recently that there are two hundred and fifty thousand KGB agents in Russia, but there are only seven thousand judges. So you know, the rule of law doesn't work in Russia. The dispute resolution doesn't work.
It's it's really.
A state run economy by the security services.
And from an investor's perspective, what a missed opportunity.
Yeah, I think so, I think. You know, if Russia, you know, Russia, unfortunately, they didn't have the institutions in place after you know, sixty seven years of communism to deal with the bumps in the road, like the financial
care in nineteen ninety eight. We fortunately in the US we do, in Europe we do, but Russia didn't, and so they reverted to their old ways and reverted to a corrupt system that they were familiar with, and all the people who were playing the rules, by the Western rules were kind of at a disadvantage, and you know, they were thrown for a loop.
And I guess what I mean is just a follow is just an opportunity that Russia could be, you know, with the energy, you know component that it has in commodities, that it could really be a decent and big player on the global scale.
So you know, Russia stocks continue to trade in Moscow and there continues to be a stock market. As an American investor, you can't participate in it, but it's still there. And you know, you know, Japan had a stock market before World War Two that stopped trading and then started trading again in nineteen forty nine or nineteen fifty. I
think there's a chance that, right, we'll come back. And you know, these things go in cycles, these these corrupt totalitarian regimes there, they drain all the talent there, they force all the human capital out of countries, and eventually they fail. And once they fail, they don't really have any choice but to come back and try the free market way again. And I think that'll happen.
Can I just ask you something. So when you say free market, then I know we're talking Russia. But then when you look at something like China, does it continue to kind of do this interesting capitalistic but not really you know, society, or does it eventually become more of a free market world.
So so China is interesting because China is a command economy from a macro perspective, but on a micro basis, a lot of the economy works on a on a free market competitive basis, so it's it's sort of a hybrid. And I think I think China is now seeing the disadvantages of a command economy as as they try to deal with with the slowdown. So, you know, it's interesting.
China could really go either way. In my opinion, Russia has has got to you know, fail before it can it can try the free market way again.
Was there any ever a time when you were there that you felt like your life was threatened? I know that Bob told me at one point, you know, when he was defending Kotokowski. The KGV came to his room and said, like, you have two hours to get out of this country, buddy, and he had to leave.
Yeah.
I think fortunately I was there early and the Russians were welcoming Western investors, and they were excited to have a stock market and a capital market where they could raise money. There there were at the time I was there, very few American investors had ever been hurt or threatened.
It was early, It was early days. There was a little bit of innuendo, a little bit of threat but but and and we you know, we got a big could We controlled a big position in a cigarette company, and at one stage where we found out our partners were the mafia, and we were kind of forced out of that position. So I guess there were some implicit threats, but overall I wasn't too concern.
You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Up next stories fit for the BusinessWeek heist issue. We continue speaking with John Kleinhins, the CEO of Klein Heights Capital and the man who inspired a fictional book about the early days of chasing money in post Soviet Russia. Stick around more to come. This is Bloomberg.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app or watch us live on YouTube.
More now from our recent conversation Matt Miller and I had with John Kleinhights, the CEO of Klein Heights Capital Partners, is a renowned international investor who both inspired and co wrote a novel called The Siberia Job about a lucrative period for investors in Russia on the fall of the Berlin Wall. In this excerpt, John explains some of the perils he encountered on his journey into a new post so fa it world.
So, my community were just a lot of a lot of Westerners who were investors over there, and guys like Bill Browner, who's a good friend of mine, and Bernie Sucher who ran a bank and a securities company, owned restaurants. And for the most part that the Westerners who stuck around did not make a lot of money. It was
it was a tough deal. The Russians. The Russians did great, and they did great by by getting control of the cash flows and taking money anyway they could and controlling the enterprise by whatever ways or whatever mechanism they could. You know, the Russians did well. The Western investors really.
Did and did you have any.
Interaction with Putin or the KGB, because I mean, who were the king makers there? Who were the ones who said, like, Okay, you're going to own the steel industry, and you're going to own the grain industry, and you're going to be the shipping magnate.
You know.
Yeah, So a lot of that happened after the nineteen ninety eight after I was gone. So and I you know, I was very fortunate that I ran a Russia fund for a while, but when I when I set up my own business, it was not a Russia specific company, So I just wasn't there when when that was going on. I did see a couple of early what I would
call stars, people who did it right. You know, veggiet Alex Spirov and Leonid Fadune who ran Luke Oil, were fantastic operators, and you know, took a three hundred million dollar company in nineteen ninety four is now I think it's got a sixty billion dollar market camp. So there were some people who did it the right way, but a lot of people did it by sort of murky murky methods.
So tell us about Josh Haven coming to you and saying, hey, I want to write a book. How did this come to be?
So I've always wanted to tell this story and it's been on my to do list for thirty years. And about two years ago, my partner in this book and in this story was killed in a helicopter ski accident, a guy named Peter Kellner who was one of the richest men in Eastern Europe. And so when he was killed,
I decided I wanted to write this story. I was introduced to a literary agent in New York who helped me meet a number of authors, and I met Josh Josh Gilertner, and Josh and I interviewed about a dozen people that were involved in this deal, and we did research, we told stories, we told anecdotes, and Josh did just an amazing job putting all of this together in a way that makes it very readable and very fun. It's a quick story. It's about a three and a half
four hour read. It's a total page turner. It's a true story, and almost all the stories in it are true. They're put together in a way that I would characterize this somewhat fictional. So we decided we opted for a fictional formats just because it would be too difficult to go back thirty years and get all the facts right.
Correct.
Did you, John, leave part of any of your heart in Russia? I mean, is it something that made you sad that it turned out the.
Way it did?
Absolutely? Absolutely, I mean it was And I talked to, you know, all these people that I interviewed for the book, we interviewed for the book. You know, we all felt the same way. I mean, it was going so well in the mid nineties and it looks so positive in the Russians. A lot of Russians wanted to do it the right way, and it's just it's a sad and disappointing era that they didn't achieve liftoff in the free market world.
That was John Kleinhinz, the CEO of Kleinhinz Capital Partners. Even more of that conversation can be heard on our Bloomberg BusinessWeek podcast. Feed the book based on his experience in Russia. It is entitled The Siberia Job. It's available as well now. And that wraps up the first hour
of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Ahead, in our next hour, we're talking to entrepreneurs and change makers Matt and I speak with Way's co founder Aurie Levine on whether artificial intelligence presents us with more problems than solutions, and a pair of former financiers break down their path to market in the world of high end spirits.
We'll talk to the co founders of Duke and Dame salted caramel flavored whiskey, plus a seasoned executive with credentials from some of the world's most influential firms on diversifying corporate boards. This is Bomberg BusinessWeek.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business app, and YouTube. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven.
Thirty Carol Master along with Matt Miller, who's filling in for Tim this week. Plenty head on our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including a dive into the highly competitive business of alcohol and how two friends left Wall Street with the dream of creating a one of a kind whiskey. We'll hear from the co founders of Duke and Dame, plus board member The Not Worldwide Carolyn Everson on the booming global wedding business
and creating more equitable representation in the boardroom. First up this hour, we welcome back Ory Levine, co founder of the satellite navigation platform Ways. Last time around, he joined us to talk about his new book, fall in Love with the Problem, Not the Solution, a handbook for entrepreneurs.
He's got plenty to say about how that philosophy applies to our use of artificial intelligence, and about whether he wishes he stayed on at Ways, which Google bought for one point one five billion dollars a decade ago.
People have regrets of the stuff that they haven't done.
I think we might have talked about this, but you don't.
You know, I am moved on. I left after the acquisition so I can build more startups and and I am very happy with the decision back then. And at the end of the day, Look, when you're making a decision, it's the right decision, the right decisions, or no decisions, And this is it.
So you've got a T shirt on that says fall in Love with the Problem, not the Solution. So those on our streaming service and YouTube can see this. You've also got a book out with that title AI. Is it a problem? Is it a solution? Is it both?
Is it yet to be determined? But it's definitely a solution. We just not clear what is the problem yet.
Well, as a startup guy, you've got to look at a technology like that and automatically start thinking of applications, right of ways to use it for progress or profits. What do you think about the potential of AI?
So in general, my approach would we start with the problem, right, start with the use case, and only then build a solution. I mean this key is because the generative language is very powerful.
Right.
If we ask one hundred people on the street, have you tried that? Then probably all of them are going to say yes. The challenge is that if you're going to ask them are you still using it? And very few are going to tell you yes, which basically means that we are not a product market fit yet, or it's not applicable for the consumer market, for the mass market. Yet.
There are some cases that I would say this is awesome, right, So if you are if you are in the business of generating content, this is going to be very helpful to you can generate way more content.
Based on that or are you investing in it?
No?
Not yet. Many of my companies are actually using AI, but not that generating language yet.
Why not?
Because you know, it was not available until recently. And now I have one company in the medical space that is actually having the knowledge and requires the language generation for that, and this is going to be a leapfrog for them.
Do you still think about I know WAYS was ten years ago, but do you still think about navigation and the possible the possibilities that AI could help in that space? I mean, my first thought when I heard your name and AI was I wonder if this could help me avoid speeding tickets more often?
Because that's one of the.
Fits of Ways is that I can see where others have pointed out that the costs because waiting. So do you think AI could help at all in making you know, Google Maps a better product for example?
So so Ways is based in a lot of cases on crowdsource on one hand, than AI on the other hand. Right, and so we can understand, we can use the they you know, we can look at different users and from their behavior understand what is going on and so we have built the AI system before we even knew how to say that, right, And I think that many companies have built an AI capabilities into their product before we actually had the region or the generation of the language.
Do you think of generative AI as akin to some other tech development? I mean, I don't know. I think folks have been talking about the creation of the Internet. I don't know, how do you think about it?
People are saying that this is the biggest revolution every right that I would say, no, no, no, wait a minute, It's not there yet. It's definitely not as big as the Internet itself. It's definitely not as big as the mobile phone itself. It's definitely not as big as the smartphones.
Right, yeah, the PC yet?
Is it a yet?
Or is it might be yet? But because at the end of the day, what all the other tools that I've mentioned did is that they interconnect people and they enable people to become better, better, to communicate, better, to access the information better for anywhere, anytime, anywhere, And this increased the abilities of the people. Now we are looking into a system that may be able to generate content by itself, but less likely to be creative.
Well, you know, if you're talking about falling over the problem. All of the things that we just talked about, the Internet, the mobile phone, the PC. Right, they were solving the problem of I guess connectivity in some ways, but now those things are the problem.
Or connectivity is the problem.
I have how many email accounts, I have three cell phones, I have you know, IB and Facebook, and I want to be less connected. So for me, the problem that AI could solve is helping me deal with all of this connectivity that I have.
Absolutely, I agree. Right, So what you're basically saying is that I'm overwhelmed with information and I would like something to you know, scan out from this information and figure out what is really important and bring that to me in a better way.
Just the signal no more noise please?
Yes?
Definitely yes. And is that something that the current engine can do, probably with enough training, Definitely yes. Is that the use case that we will end up with? Maybe yes?
So would you say, and I'm thinking about our audience and investing audience, you know, who have just watched this AI euphoria and we've seen something like an video but some other names just go kind of off off the charts. Would you say it's too early to make that investment play.
No, I think that if you don't play in this game, then definitely you are going.
To lose, right, So it's not too early to go into.
Some of the It's not too early. And to a certain extent, what I would like to also mention is, look, we look at it and we say, Okay, wait a minute. That chat GPT just appear in our life about six months ago. So you look at it and you say, in six months, it's done so much. Right, Wait a minute, open AI is seven years old. It takes a lot of time to create value. And the first part of this value or the value generation journey was about creating the technology, and now we are looking for the use
case that will make it valuable. In some cases it's already there, but in some cases it's not there yet.
Do you have an overarching investment strategy?
I mean you've.
Created and sold to billion dollar businesses. Probably people come to you with pitches left and right all the time. There is there one kind of overarching strategy that you use to drive your investments.
I do, right, because at the end of the day, my mission in life is to create value, and I can create value through different Ways. One of them is you know, building solutions to a problem that will help you to become better. And so this is Ways or Movie or pont Era or Zunka or C three or Fairfly or many of my startups. And the other one
is through guiding and mentoring and teaching others. Right, And the book is about fulfilling my destiny of creating value as sharing the know how and to a certain extent, when you share the know how, when I go into a company and I help them, at the end of the day, what happens is that they sign up to my know how and that increased their likelihood of being seccessful. So my methodology is not about guessing what's right, is creating what's right.
So for entrepreneurs, you might grab your book and kind of get you know, fall into your philosophy and benefit from it. I do wonder or what you think is one of our biggest problems today that needs solving.
You know, we can look at many problems, right, So a lot of us are speaking about wait a minute, we are way too much connected.
Right.
You look at the younger generation and they are connected into social media and the levels that are beyond imagination. Right, and in some cases they're not happy, right, And so happiness of younger generation is a challenge. Right. You look at medical services, right, medical services in the US are five times more expensive than they are in Germany.
Now, it's not right to live in Germany, he talks about all the time.
And it's not that they're better in Germany. In here that in Germany. Right, it's simply five times more expensive. So you look at it and say, okay, wait a minute, this is waste of resources. Right. We started weighs in two thousand and seven in order to help people to avoid traffic jams. There are more traffic jams today than they're work in two thousand and seven, right, So obviously this problem is not done yet and we will need to address that as well. And so that's a lot
of big problems that needs to be addressed. And I think that at the end of the day, it's the entrepreneurs that are going to change the world, and our role is to encourage them.
That was Aory Levine, co founder of Ways, also an investor in move It, which Intel bought for one billion dollars back in twenty twenty. His book out now, Fall in Love with the problem, not the solution. A handbook for entrepreneurs. You're listening to Bloomberg business Week. Coming up the story of two friends who left Wall Street behind for a chance to create their own brand of whiskey
with a personal twist. The co founders of Duke and Dame, salted caramel flavored whiskey joins us on the other side. This is Bloomberg.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg or watch us live on YouTube.
Up next, we have the story of two friends who left the financial world for a chance to feel what they felt was avoid In the Fine Spirit segment, Amani McCauley and Shima Bury are the co founders of Duke and Dame, an award winning salted caramel flavored whiskey which has grown into one of the elite, black owned and independent alcoholic brands on the market today. The duo recently joined me and Matt Miller in studio to talk about their unique journey. Amani kicked it off for us.
I started my career at Lehman Brothers many years ago, remember.
Them drink I do, I do, I do.
And you know, after about eleven years on Wall Street doing investment banking, got to a point where I realized it was time for change. You know, I wanted to go work different parts of my brain. I wanted a different type of adventure and challenge. I wanted a new life. Left investment banking behind and packed up all my stuff and went traveling for a little bit, and then ended up in Miami hanging out with Chima. And you know, we'll get into we'll get into that point.
And you have a finance background.
Yeah, so you'm talking about be a commodity and currency trader for many years as well. So we we both loved finance. We actually met through a mutual friend at her going away party who also worked in finance. So I had recently moved to New York and Amani was here working and she's like, you guys are similar.
You guys should definitely connect.
And uh so, not only you know, obviously working in finance, but socially we had a lot of similar interest and yep, yep, a lot of that and it led us and traveling, traveled out a bit, and we definitely honed in our ability to notice great spirits. So we decided to make one.
That's pretty cool.
I mean, how do you make that leap from we like to travel and we like.
To drink because I like to travel and I like to drink and I love my job.
I mean, it is it is?
You know now, I guess in twenty twenty three, you could look back and say, man, people are making so much money in liquor. Yes, but that wasn't the case then, that was it? So how did you decide like we could do this better or there's not you know, I like this whiskey and that bourbon, but there's nothing that really hits it.
For me, and I'm gonna need to make it myself.
By the way, it's not the case now, like some people are making money in liquor, but it's a.
And if you've got a great product like we do, you know, I mean, you definitely have the potential to make a good amount of money. So so the idea to answer your question, we I was at dinner one night when I was working and with a bunch of buddies and this was when Fireball first came out that whiskey.
I know it well, and I've done a shot ski we all have.
We all have.
We all know it very well, and it had just come out, so it was the biggest craze. And we're at dinner and when my buddy's brought around for the table, so we take the shot. Starts well, it starts a conversation. If you could start your own flavored whiskey, what would it be. Conversation comes to me and I say I would do something reminiscent of a Werther's original sugar.
Sugar Daddy's candy. And everybody's like, wow, what a great idea.
But of course we all went back to work.
Nothing happened.
Many years later, I had left New York, moved back to South Florida, where'm from. As Amani mentioned, he had quit, traveled around the world, came to hang out with me in Miami, and hey, remember this idea, Well, let's look into it.
He went back to New York.
Our kitchens looked like chemistry labs, you know, beakers, pipettes.
And things like that.
Coming out with this, You're playing in the kitchens literally sampling with our friends. Everybody's like, what is this and why is this amazing. We met and a couple distilleries and left saying, wow, we could do this. Now we've won ten International Spirit Awards read a third best Flavor Whisky.
In the World.
How difficult, though, was it? From taking it from your kitchen, coming up with something that everybody's like, hey, this is really cool, then to actually the bottle you brought in and edited out the kitchen part.
That's anytime you have an idea and you're considering, you know, taking it from the idea stage into something actually actually tangible, it's it feels difficult, but.
Do you just play around with the recipe? Is it literally it?
And even when Shema first proposed the idea, I was like, huh, that's that's interesting. Uh, you know, salted caramel whiskey. But I think you know. One of the first things we did we found a distillery, as Chima mentioned, and went to go hang out there. We spent four hours, they opened the doors to us, spent four hours asking every question under the sun. I remember walking out of that building. We looked at each other like hm, hm, this might not be as impossible as it might have thought a
week or so ago. And so that's really when we started thinking, all right, let's let's keep exploring. So we started doing research and then we started prototyping. So we we we had an idea of what we wanted to create, right because at the time, a lot of the options in the flavor whiskey space, you know, consumers felt where overly sweet, syrapy syrup, you know, had an artificial element and taste, the after taste, and we thought, you know, if we're gonna do this, it has to be a
whiskey first that happens to have amazing Roman flavor. It has to be one natural, right, nothing artificial at all. It has to be it can't be sweet like you're drinking cought syrup or something like that. And so Duken Dame has only one gram of sugar per serving.
I was shocked when I read that, and that's amazing, right.
And it's in how we formulated it really kind of leads to how we're able to accomplish that, and you know, to put in perspective. Jack Daniels, Tennessee honey has five grams of sugar preserving five times and the world.
Is aware of it, and they want I'm going past the bomb, Well, I'm going to open it up and start.
But so money, what you're saying is initially, initially it's daunting, but you put one foot in front of the other.
And so by the time so by the time we started playing around in our kitchens, and you know, we weren't you know, just full disclosure, we were not breaking the law. We did not have little this, you know, little distillery sets in our kitchens. But we were sampling different types of whiskeys, different types of flavoring. It's kind of formulating what we imagined our whiskey would be.
We did.
We did it, but deconstructed, not officially, but a couple of a couple of months later and I'm in New York teams in Florida.
We were taking notes. We're like, all right, man, try this, one milli liter of that, one mill of this. And then eventually we got to a point where like, oh, I think that that's it. Then you know, we took some old whiskey bottles, scraped off whatever label was on there, made of batch filled it up, and then we run around and have people sample. And so it was at that point when our friends are sampling and our family sampling it that we're getting this feedback that blew us away, like, wow, man,
this is amazing. Dude, you've made this in your kitchen. Dude, you have to make this and get on the phone. You're like, waitmen, you're getting the same feedback.
Well, what do you want to do?
And it was at that point that it actually became real.
That's Amani McCauley and Shimaburi. They are the co founders of Duke and Dame and they provided the backstory and up next they're going to talk about the hurdles they faced as they tried to turn whiskey stardom into profits.
You know, we're not check right, but in the VC world nowadays, no one's just giving you a check for one idea, right. They need proof of concept. You have to go build it first, show that it works. Yeah, the income ask for money. So we took the same approach. Let's go build it first. We created this great product. You know, we got some validation from the market that it was good, and we created a bit.
You're listening to Bloomberg business Week. This is Bloomberg.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business app, and YouTube. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.
All right, let's continue our conversation with Mommy McCauley and Shima Beory, co founders of Duke and Dame, an award winning salted caramel flavored whiskey. Matt Miller and I just pumped open one of their bottles, and a money is walking us through the tasting process.
So the nose, you're getting that really robust caramel rome. You want to describe it a little bit.
It does smell like caramel like, it really smells delicious.
And by the way, this are this flavor has gotten very big. Also, probably wasn't as big when you started as it is now because now the caramel is a thing.
It's a thing.
So your first loves salt the camel.
All right, let's take the first step.
Very smooth, very smooth.
There you go, getting that harsh whiskey. A lot of people to whiskey, right.
Yeah.
I was actually worried that I was going to look a little bit more feminine because I have a difficult time drinking whiskey.
I don't know.
I always tell people, Notice you just took this very sick. You're smiling and yeah, it's.
Not like you don't get that bit exactly.
So take your second ship and we'll talk about it.
Mm hmm, less sweet.
You're getting more tenants from the from the bourbon that we use, so.
We don't hate me, but this would be great. All support over vanilla.
Ice, absolutely, we have a lot of customers that love it over vanilla and an old fashioned Yeah. Well, actually one of our many of our accounts are switching from using vodka to us in the espresso martini.
It has such a nice like after feel and warmth.
Yeah like it.
I forgot this.
Are you okay?
I like it? Now?
Are you getting the oakiness and a little spy on that second sip?
Yeah?
It was definitely a little different.
Yea.
Yeah, so it was just this beautiful layer it taste profile that really makes Duke and dam unique.
So one of the things we wanted to talk to you about. We had a great conversation off air while we were doing some news funding you guys bootstrapped it. Yes, talk to us about that.
How hard was it.
Yeah, Well, our plan was to you know, you know, we're not check right, But in the VC world nowadays, no one's just giving you a check for one idea, right, They need proof of concept. You have to go build it first, show that it works, and then come ask for money. So we took the same approach. Let's you know, we didn't feel comfortable asking our friends and family for money on just some crazy idea. Okay, let's go build
it first. We created this great product. We you know, we got some validation from the market that it was good. Just wasn't us that thought it was good. And we created a business and a few years later we were able to go to friends and family door a raise and it was much more successful than we thought. But because we could show hey, first you can touch and feel and taste the product, it's good.
The two of us like shooting the breeze.
We can show the retailers that we got into whether it was Total line ABC in Florida, Mark Classico at the time, so we could show the hey, look at what we've done a cruise. So that made the rays easier. It happened a little bit later than anticipated because of COVID right parts to ask people for money when this stock before.
You tw twenty seventeen.
Was that when you guys do.
We started a business in twenty seventeen, We launched a product in twenty eighteen, and.
Then during the pandemic, did you think, oh my god, this is it. We're going to be killed Nobody everybody was drinking well?
Or was that a boom when.
You well, the global brands and the big guys were doing great, right. The lifeline of smaller companies or craft spirit companies like ours, especially just a year and a half in, is what we call liquid lips. So when you go into liquor store and you see the brand ambassador giving you samples, that shut off. We couldn't do events and activations because that shut off. So people couldn't sample this new bottle, this spirit. If they knew Tito's, they would go and buy it because they just knew
it already. But we definitely did some creative things that where we actually grew during the pandemic. Most brands that started off actually fell off or folded because they didn't have that already brand recognition. But we pivoted. We did some things within our supply chain which mattered. We really used our connections, our network where everyone was listening to
streaming radio. We networked and found a whole bunch of on air DJs, had them wearing Duke and Dame shirts and bottles and giveaways and things like that.
It really forced us to transition to digital. Yeah that's awesome, which we had not done or now that was a part of it, but really just how do you reach the consumer exact right?
Yep, yeah, So we had to pivot and do that instead of relying on the traditional way of introducing customers through experiential marketing, and that was the big thing. So for us, we could tout the awards. We won a bunch of awards actually before we launched, so in fact we had this great product, but we had to compete against Tennessee Honey and Crown Apple and things like that.
Now I'm on and I we were talking.
We're like, all right, we.
Need to hang a medal on the bottle similar to this, you know.
So we applied to four contests. We actually won were placed in all four, which was insane. We actually got the top award at the Consumer Choice Award, which is the SIPs Award, And when we hit the market right away. Within two weeks, we got into total Wine.
That's pretty cool, which is huge.
Did you apply for any funding, I'm a small business, loans or anything like that.
No, no, no, no, we had a couple of nig.
You're right right.
So we were fortunate that we were able to to do something while we were working and say, can I.
Ask you are you profitable?
No?
Not yet?
Okay.
Liquor industry is very tough, as we as we continue to expand our distribution. Yeah, yeah, yeah, but but the model will prove yeah that way. But right now when five market is Florida, New York, Michigan, Maryland, DC, as I mentioned, and we shipped thirty eight states, seven Caribbean markets, every kind of a cruisive in the world.
We just started with the Royal Caribbees.
They drink a lot.
Yes, we like the fact that they drink. It helps.
So what's next? Do you expand the line or how do you think about it?
So I think we're at a point now where we're really ready to invest in that next stage of growth. So we were able to bring in a large investor earlier this year, and so we're really now starting to do all the things you wish you could have done that you couldn't do before, so investing more marketing and promotional activities. Of course, Chiem and I have done everything from day one. Staff sounds like we have zero full time employees other than us, but we're actually now starting to,
you know, think about building a staff. We're interviewing for a marketing role and for sales roles on the ground, so we're really trying to kind of take Duke and Dame.
To that next level.
So that's what we're focused on now in terms of portfolio and brand extensions. You know, let's just say we're in the lab.
You're in the kitchen.
To find a distiller or did you have to go through many or.
Well it was funny, so before we started on research, you know, you think it's hard, right, but then once you get into it, you find out that, oh, you know, buy versus build. You can go build your own, but there's a lot of capital investment required for that if you wanted to work with a third party distiller. We were very surprised to learn that, oh, some of our favorite brands you actually don't distill.
Their own whiskey.
It's amazing, Like, wait a minute, you can do that.
So we were able to find We spoke to a few and we found one who was actually based in Florida that they make amazing whiskey, and they make amazing whiskey for us.
Such a fun conversation with Ammy McCauley and Schiman Bury, co founders of Duke and Dame salted caramel flavored whiskey. You're listening to Bloomberg business Week coming up. Online wedding planning platform than Not is enjoying record revenues well also ensuring that people from every demographic can enjoy its services.
I think the goal is to have boardrooms represent a diverse set of individuals because that's the customer base that these companies are representing.
More on the changing landscape of the corporate boardroom. When we come back, this is Bloomberg.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business app, or watch just Live on YouTube.
Women hold a third of S and P five hundred board seats for the first time ever after scores of men gave up their directorships in May, a long elusive goal that's been touted as a baseline for lasting change. Caroline Everson is a board member of the NOT Worldwide, the global wedding marketplace operating in sixteen countries, and right now business is booming.
The wedding industry is a two hundred and fifty billion dollar industry. It is extremely robust. Twenty twenty two was considered sort of the super Bowl of weddings because there
was such pent up demand. We had two point six million IDs in the United States alone this year'll it'll go back to pre COVID levels at about two point one million, and then NOT have achieved its highest revenue and its history in twenty twenty two with four hundred million dollars in revenue, and it's been profitable for ten years. So it is a very strong business. And yet one of the reasons why I joined the board is I think that we are going to go through a pretty
massive transformation. When you think about the advent of AI and what it can do for wedding planning, I think it's going to be a phenomenal user experience. So I'm very bullish about the opportunity. We've got a lot of growth globally, and also it's a very nascent advertising business, and having been part of the team that helped build metas advertising business, I think there is a pretty significant opportunity for us to do that at the NOT.
You know, it's interesting that you went there in terms of advertising and Meta, the evolution of ads maybe as a result of AI, Is it going to change dramatically? Should we all be kind of ready for something very different?
I think so. I mean I'm already seeing significant change. So when you think about the scale at which companies do advertising these days across digital platforms, AI has actually been utilized by companies like Meta and Google for years. What I think you're going to see a big difference
is in the creative development. What we're seeing now is using generative AI, marketers can literally put together thousands, if not hundreds of thousands of varieties of campaigns in a much more efficient and effective way than NOT has been experimenting with some of that. Marketing has already seen a twenty percent lift in conversion. So I think that's going to be a pretty transformational trend in digital advertising.
You talk about transformational and boards are transforming. You are part of that. I am curious though, when you in a week where we saw Supreme Court rulings dealing with affirmative action, you rejecting the use of race in university admissions. We've been talking about, well, how does that maybe impact ultimately the business community. What are the conversations that boards or companies are having as we see these changes.
My experience through all the companies that I have the privilege of serving on is that the you have an unwaivering commitment to the principles of diversity, equity, and inclusion, and that is not going to change. I think the goal is to have boardrooms represent a diverse set of individuals because that's the customer base that these companies are representing.
And so each search that I have been part of, either for myself or in looking at new colleagues that could potentially join the boards that I'm on, there are a lot of criteria that the board of directors goes through and really thinks about what skill set does the boardroom need in order to help advise management, and that can span many, many different areas.
That's Carolyn Everson, board member of the not Worldwide. She's also on the board of the Walt Disney Company and under Armor. Carolyn is former president of Instacart, former VP of Global Business Group at Meta, and a former corporate VP at Microsoft. Her full interview available on our podcast feed. And that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thank you so much for joining us.
Be sure to tune into Bloomberg Business Week Monday through Friday, starting at three pm Wall Street Time on Bloomberg Radio and on Series XM Channel one nineteen. You can also watch our daily broadcast on YouTube just search Bloomberg Global News or submocast on Bloomberg Originals available at Bloomberg dot com, Slash Originals, and streaming platforms such as Roku, Amazon, fireTV,
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