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Hi everyone, Welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. Happy holidays everyone. With the year nearly over, we think it's time for reflection and anticipation. In this hour, we sit down with the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek magazine to lay out what twenty twenty six could have in store, from big ideas to looming risks.
Plus a guide to the best places to travel in twenty twenty six, because yes, it's kind of a flex.
Yeah, me to start planning early. Yeah, like I'm going so and so Like me, twenty months is like.
Right around the corner, so it is all right.
We're going to wrap up too with a look back at the year that was for one of the most unpredictable figures in business, tech, and politics. We're talking about Elon.
And in the spirit of the holiday season and mid taking time off while playing in the snow or basking in the sun, and spending time with friends and family, you may also find yourself with time on your hands.
So with that in mind, in our second hour, we're going to lay out some of our team's winter reading list, courtesy of authors and books featured on Bloomberg Business Week from the last six months, everything from regulating digital empires, to what it means to unlock collective genius, and to the CEO of Jamba Juice with tips on how he built an organization with purpose.
All of that ahead first, though, twenty twenty five, I am having trouble believing this year is even over, and also having trouble believing all that's happened, the ups, the downs, No doubt, it's been a long year and one that's gone by I think for a lot of people too really fast.
Yeah, no doubt.
Covering it all the major themes players from Wall Street to Main Street to Washington and more is Bloomberg BusinessWeek Magazine. Bradstone is the editor of Bloomberg Business Week Magazine. He joined Bloomberg's Alexis, Christopherus and Me on the year that was and what to expect in twenty twenty six.
I'll start with the principle, which is that we are in the business of covering the icons and business, politics and culture, the companies that are transforming the world, and the technologies and the trends that are changing our lives. And so when we look back at the year, and we look back at so the December issue, Keisha Steelman from Alta Beauty, the package on the beauty industry Gap,
Richard Dixon to Turnaround at the Gap, Doug McMillan, Walmart. Okay, these are classic Business Week stories, corpor profiles, narratives of companies coming back from the brink.
We have actually, you know, a shore. There are some of your covers. You mentioned Alta, I mean Gavin Newsome.
Will be more specific about this year though, Okay, because I think this year there were two stories that really the impacted all of us and are transforming the world in front of our eyes. And one is AI right in the massive bet on data centers and GPUs and the way that it's transforming companies. And so we put Sam Altman on the cover. In February, we have China's
AI the AI issue in June. But that the other story is clearly and maybe this is the biggest one, is Donald Trump and what has really been the pursuit of kind of an executive presidency, the accumulation of power. And so Scott Bessentt on the cover in September, Elon and Doge on the cover in August, Trump's trade war, after Liberation Day in May. I mean, these are all ways we tried to cover that story, and you know, it's massive, it's still developing. But it's not just the covers.
It's in the issues every month, and we're trying to tell the story about a destruction of norms in Washington, d C. That's radiating out into the business world and across all our lives.
I'm curious if there was one story and I know this is a lot right coming because you're looking at the whole year in review, really, but was there one story that particularly resonated with readers this year?
Okay, well, it's funny, Alexis, because after having laid out all these serious topics, I'll give you one that Pop's right to mind, which is we did the story about
doodles and the doodal industrial complex. These these dogs and how doodle owners are battling with like the Purebread is it the Purebread Association, I can't quite remember, but this whole like the the AKC or something like that, and this battle over this you know, ridiculous but adorably cute muppet dog breed, and that of course went well gang
in between people in their day exactly. You know. More seriously, we wrote the first profile of Russell Vote, the head of the Office of Management Budget, the real spiritual leader behind Doge, not even Musk, The account of you know, his blueprint Project twenty five. This is a Max Chafkin story and how it was transforming everything from you know, USAID to the whole federal bureaucracy, and so those kinds
of stories. When we were early on this accumulation of an imperial presidency of power by Trump, that's where I think we really connected with our readers.
You know, as someone who talks, you know, you think about kind of how this presidency was going to play out and how you wanted to cover it. I mean, were you anticipating all the twists and turns. I mean we had kind of a first version in his first.
Term, but this has been a very different second term.
I mean, I don't I don't know that anybody anticipated it. And look, you know, nobody has a crystal ball. I think that after Liberation Day, a lot of people automatically assumed that it could push the economy into recession and really hit consumer spending. What we see today is a very complex pick. Sure, people talk about the K shaped economy. It seems like part of this economy is doing very well. Black Friday, Cyber Monday shopping was strong. Consumer sentiment is good.
But then there's another side of this economy where people are suffering and affordability is the word of the day. When we put Gavin news From on the cover of November, you know, he's hitting some of those notes. Gavin was not a story about twenty twenty eight. It was a story about today. And now he's managed to finally articulate for the Democratic Party a path forward and articulate an
argument against the current administration. And so you know, we're trying to tell examine all dimensions, and you know, and I wrote a story in that issue about how California is a bit of a handicap right now. It's not an economic success story. So we try to interrogate all sides of the political divide.
I do want to give a shout out though, to a cover story in January, So going way back to the beginning of the year, the Human Egg, which was an amazing investigative piece that actually on a Globe award. So I was wondering if that was one that particularly, you know, connected with folks.
I mean, I love when BusinessWeek becomes the home for the most ambitious journalistic work inside the Bloomberg newsroom. And this came from our investigations team. It is this global investigation in how women are sometimes coersed into donating their eggs or sometimes in economic positions where they feel like they have to, and a whole industry that is in some cases deceiving them and in some cases harming their
harming the donors. And it was sweeping, I mean from China to India to the United States, truly global, and we tracked in some cases our reporters traveled with these shipments of donated eggs, and yeah, it was wonderful. It did resonate with readers, and it's just the beginning of the kinds of journalism that we're doing.
How do you think about twenty twenty six, especially as we get ready for midterms, and I think about how much you guys have spent focusing on politics, and it makes sense. How how are you beginning to think about it?
Well, I mean, I go back to I think our principles, which is iconic leaders in business, culture and and politics. You know, we're We're a business magazine, so there's a lot of business leaders and a lot of companies that
I'm curious about. I think we've only begun to explore the the the China story, the transformation of the international dynamic with the withdrawal of the United States, and a lot of important you know, alla alliances, climate change, the role that China will now take as it is increasingly assertive.
That's a topic that interests me. I mean, obviously, you know the midterms, but I think, like we did with Scott Besson, like we did with Gavin Newsom, we find, you know, we interviewed Donald Trump during the campaign, did a cover story in Kamala Harris during the campaign. We find our opportunities and those characters that always feel larger than life and also you know, impacting the business story, right and who you know who are telling an economic story that is interesting to our readers.
We have to get in the Jealousy List because I love that you do this too. It's the best journalism in your eyes right or the the Business Week's eyes of twenty twenty five. But it's nothing we wrote, which I think is really cool. There was one thing on the Jealousy List that resonated with me. It was the spritzes and carbonaras that ate Italy and tourism. I think it was a New York Times artic cloud tourism has
turned some Italian streets into monochromatic eating zones. They're actually stopping new restaurants from opening up in some parts of Italy. Now can you believe it?
I mean, I love the Jealousy List. I basically send out an email to all of our contributors in the newsroom and I say, you know, what did what did our competitors do that you were a little jealous of over the last twelve months? And we get stories and some podcasts. In one case, we even got a series
of tweets Derek Derek Guy, the fashion influencer. Yeah, I mean, it's just and it turns out I think a lot of people open that up in bookmark stories and Yeah, we're we're being a little like benevolent here with our attention and calling calling attention to our competitors. But it's a ritual. We've done it, I think seven or eight years in a row.
I love it.
I've contributed to it.
It's like it's it's a lot of fun and I always feel like what it reminds me of, like these are a bunch of things I want to read and then the same thing that Business Week doese throughout the year, whether it's movies, whether it's theater. You know, kind of the Pursuits group has done this, whether it's books to read, Like you guys are always tapping into all of this.
Yeah, well, you know it's the curse of the journalists, Like we have to pay attention off to everything. We can't turn it off. We're news junkies, and so this is, I guess, a way of sharing the obsession.
Brad, you talked about the doodle story and how much people responded to it. Is there any story though, that you guys have put out where people like.
Are really fighting back against it and giving you guys.
Oh, that's a good question.
I just wonder.
I mean, look, any politics story that probably any media outlet, and Bloomberg is no exception. Right, you hear it, You hear like. We do not have a monolithic audience. You know, there are there are plenty of our readers from all both sides of the political aisle, and they tell you when you don't get it right. So I think you know hear it too. Yeah, from the from our Gavin covered or Scott Bessent interview to our coverage of Doge
and Elon, you know, you hear it. And something about the political discussion has shifted where you know, they if somebody doesn't like it, you don't get a you know, disciplined, civilized letter to the editor. They tweet, they tweet something and they whip up, you know. And so yeah, that that certainly happened for for a lot of what we write. And look, I mean, we wouldn't be doing our job if companies weren't regularly calling and lodging complaints of some kind.
And I could list a couple, but maybe more more polite to just leave it at that. But part part of the job is you do get.
Some pushback and people are reading and you're getting it from all sides.
Great stuff. We love We love having.
Everybody, all the members of your team and you stop by, so thank you so much.
Good lucky.
I know it's not twenty twenty six rush us.
It just feels like, you know, it's all of a sudden, it's here.
Can tease the cover for January?
You know, I will say, alexis that annually we do a year ahead issue in January. So it's a guy that's your map to twenty twenty six and I've contributed a couple stories. The team has come together, so basically how to stay sane next year? Look for that in the January issue.
Like copy good stuff as always.
Thank you so much.
Bradstone, editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek, Joining us right here in studio.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.
What do Gabone, Almadi, Kazakhstan, San Francisco, Lima, Texas and I Pay all have in common?
Hmm?
That has me scratching my head. Well, I'll tell you what they have in common.
They are all on Bloomberg Pursuit's list of where to go in twenty twenty six.
The Bloomberg Pursuits tenth annual travel guide for the year ahead makes it easier than ever to cut through the noise and book your next vacation. The list of twenty five destinations is quite the mix reinvigorated classics and under the radar gems, each brimming with new luxuries and creative energy and places that won't strain your wallet.
I'm ready. I'm so ready, so you.
Can you can definitely find a place to strain your.
Wallet, all right?
With our deep dive on where to travel in twenty twenty six in the new year is Bloomberg Pursuits Global Travels are Nikki Eckstein. Nikki, we always love this list, We always love talking about it with you, But first of all, remind us how this list gets put together, because the world is a pretty big place. I mean it's a group effort.
Oh yeah, it takes a village. I say that creating this list each year is almost like having a child. I have two of them, so I don't take that lightly. But we do an all year round effort. Sometimes it takes multiple years for news to kind of bubble up in the way that we want in a particular place.
So we're tracking places for a very long time all around the world, and as we see pockets of news, you know, hotel openings, museum expansions, airport expansions, new airports, new flights, what have you, we are looking at all of that news and more and kind of watching for little hot zones where a lot of things are going on all at once and making a place feel really magnetic at a particular moment in time.
And then there's kind of intangibles.
Where we just see that the culture is shifting in a particular way, the conversation is moving, and there's something in the zeitgeist that is homing in on particular parts of the world in ways that we can put our fingers on because we're watching this stuff day in and day out, but other people might not notice until they see it all over their Instagram feeds next year.
Well, let's start with one of those places that I was surprised to see on the list, and that's Gabone.
Yeah, Gabone is really interesting. So this is a particularly interesting case because you can really point a finger at what is happening and why and how, And it really started in many ways with Jeff Bezos. That's a surprising connection, right,
like who saw that coming? But his Earth Fund pledged some thirty million dollars into conservation efforts across the country just a couple of years ago, and those efforts are really bearing fruit and helping turn them into robust wildlife tourism destinations where, among other things, you can see gorillas in really small groups of people, much smaller even than in Rwanda, which is so known for its gorilla tourism,
and you can get these really really intimate sightings. One of the things that's school about Gubbon is that the wildlife parks are right against the coast, and so you can stay in these beachside resorts and like you're not fighting for lounge chairs with other people. The quote unquote people on the beach are hippos and elephants.
Okay, I love that. I still love that.
Oh yeah, And it's you know, I think about, like, you know, Africa in general and going on safaris and things like these are things that have been around for a long time, but this just does feel like a much more intimate, intimate twist on.
All of that oh yeah, you're not going to run into another jeep for a mile?
Hey listen one of the things and when like when should we go? Because I think I just want to point out that what's cool about this list is should Yeah, I'm on it begs packed.
You know.
You guys do different factors that kind of determine the experiences, you know, and when is the right place to go and when not to go?
So when should we go to Gabon?
You know, we try really hard to make this list very useful. A lot of our competitors in the travel space do really interesting lists that are meant to surprise you in so many ways. We do that, but we also try to make it really really useful. And the way that we do that is exactly like you're saying, we're providing a ton of data. We have a partnership
with Kayak. They supply us with two point five billion data points each year to get this project off the ground, and those data points power these incredible charts that are interactive.
You can select your closest airport and then get predictive price insights month by month to understand what flights and hotels will cost you to go to each of the twenty five places that we're excited about this year, and then on top of that, we layer in expert insights from travel agents and operators that are real experts in these destinations. So for a place like Ubone, we can tell you very clearly that the summer months are summer months June, July, August are the best time to go.
Because prices are favorable, but also that's.
When you're going to get the best wildlife sidings. It's the dry season, so you'll not only be able to see gorillas, but also migratory whales. On the coast, there's a national park where there are lots of mandrel monkeys and that's their mating season.
Like all of these.
Reasons why the summer months are really the best time.
I love. I love hey listen.
I always think about People always talk about Greece, and when you haven't been to Greece like me, they're like, what you haven't been to Greece? But I always think about the Greek Isles and you guys actually include on this list the Greek mountains.
Wait, what you haven't been to see I have either, Well, my parents went, they're on their honeymoon.
Yeah, This was like, you know, back before everyone was posting Greek Isles on Instagram, well many decades before that.
Apparently now we should go to the Greek mountains.
Well, I do recommend that you go to the Greek Islands at some point in your life, but I think that a mistake that people make is overly focusing on the Greek Islands, and a change in behavior is happening now where people are understanding that the Greek Islands are very saturated, they're very expensive. Hotels are easily pushing one thousand dollars a night if you can even get in. The fairies are you know, there's difficulties with the fairies.
There's always protests and strikes, and there's weather concern and there have been wildfires the last few years, very extreme temperatures. That doesn't make the Greek Islands any less magical. They're
a very very special place. But people have understood that the headache that's associated with the Greek Isles means that sometimes you need to pair them with another place that's a little less stressful, And a really common solution to that, which is sometimes also just replacing the Greek Isles, is to go north to the mountains where you can get a lot of the same cultural draws, a lot of the same food even, but with a much quieter, more
countryside vibe. Small villages where the culture is really still a Greek authentic experience. You know, you're going to get farmers and cheesemakers and very old monasteries and old stone buildings and just that kind of charm that in a lot of the islands has been eroded to kind of peddling to masterism.
Okay, so that's an area that is certainly on my list. I want to talk a little bit about budgets here. We mentioned that you can go on both ends of the budget extreme, so stuff that's affordable and stuff that many would classify as splurging. Let's start with the splurging side of things. If you look at this entire list of more than two dozen places, where do you go if you win the power ball?
Wooh?
That's a great question.
So I would say my personal answer to that question is not born out by the data that we're showing necessarily, but I would go to wrote island in Indonesia, where
a new hotel is soon to open called me he wrote. Now, if you're a hotel nerd like I am, then Niki has a strong connotation to you because about almost fifteen years ago, the entrepreneur Chris Birch and the Hotelia James McBride became like overnight sensations in the luxury travel world by opening what soon became known as the most luxurious resort in the whole life world. And it was called Meihi Wacho. Now it's just called me He they changed it.
But this Indonesian private island resort has developed such a strong following. It really is known as one of the finest places you can stay. And for the first time, they're opening their second hotel, a spinoff to Nihim, on a tiny island called Rote And what's interesting about it is that they're also creating a big hospitality academy for locals there so that they can help Indonesians kind of capitalize on their own travel economy. It's a really interesting model.
These are expensive hotels, but that's where I would go. The nice thing is that because that hotel isn't open yet, it's not reflected in Kayak's hotel data, and if you wanted to stay anywhere else, our price information shows that you can stay for as little as one hundred and sixteen dollars a night in a luxury hotel.
I have to say I would love to go to Tanzania's Spice Islands. That's my kind of favorite pick in this list. Having said that, I got to go to the United States because there are a couple of places Ozarks, which made me think of the streaming series, and then Charleston, South Carolina, which made me think of the reality show Southern Charm.
But they are on.
Your list as places that are in the US that people might want to think about. Top up, they're among your tops.
Yeah. Absolutely, so the Ozarks are really interesting. I think most people probably don't even know exactly.
Where they are. They're in the South.
There's a big kind of mountain range and connects numerous destinations that you probably do know about. There's Brandson, Missouri on one side, and then Bentonville, Arkansas, is on another side. And if you know anything about Bentonville, you know that it's the HQ for Walmart.
I thought you were going to say it's the cycling capital of the country.
Oh stops it is.
It's also true thanks to the Walton family that have you know, they've actually just had a big race there.
The Walton family has done so much for this part of the US, and their biggest contribution, and in my opinion and probably in a lot of people's opinion, is the museum that they created in Bentonville called Crystal Bridges Museum of American Art, and it is truly one of the finest art institutions in the country, if not possibly the world, frankly, and they are they're doing a massive, massive expansion of their gallery spaces. They're adding one hundred
and fourteen thousand square feet of exhibition space. And this is like really architecturally impressive gallery space, Like we're not talking about like just boxy buildings. It's like beautiful, like you know, it's a complex worth seeing on its own. But it's also surrounded with like James Trell exhibit installations like those sky Space installations, and trails of one hundred
public artworks that you can go biking around. Plus there's like all these new hotels in the area that make it really really quite fascinating culturally from an adventure standpoint. For a family standpoint, it's got everything.
I think Corsica now may be my favorite place.
Of this This.
List is changing.
It's oh my god, there's like it's really cool. It's really cool.
We have to leave it there, unfortunately, but I do love how you say. It's interactive. We highly recommend everybodyhead either to the Bloomberg or Bloomberg dot com play around with it because you know, you can select an origin, you can you just kind of can play around with it and figure out the best time of the year to go.
You know.
The financial part and what it would cost is all part of it. It's very cool how you guys put this list together. Nikki, thank you so much. Happy holidays and happy almost a new year. Places to go we travel Hapy travels.
Love it. Take care of Nikki.
That's Nikki x Stein Bloomberg pursuits that global travels are and be sure to check out the list at Bloomberg dot com and of course on the Bloomberg terminal too.
Where would you go? Rocky Mountains were in there too, you know.
Well Canadian Canada's rocky mountains still rocky mountains. Yeah, that's a great place. I would I would I want to go to Kazakhstan.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah, it's right. It sounds like.
What yeah, really cool. This is the scener is just unbelievable.
The information this list tells you why you really want to go there. And I love that they did the homework.
Since you and I started doing this together, Carol, what I been to zero of these places?
Welcome to having kids?
Hey still I had.
On Bloomberg Business Week, we reflect on the year that was for the world's richest man.
Elon. This is Bloomberg.
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business App. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Let's now turn to someone who seemed to dominate the news cycle in twenty twenty five. Seem to yeah, he totally dominates. Elon Musk wasn't just sending rockets to space and pushing robotaxis forward. He began the year by plunging head first into politics, taking the advisory role in the Trump Administration's Department of Government Efficiency or do Where Musk and his team of dozers helped is that what they call them do they call them dozers.
Doge kids, doge doge kids.
That's Maxis scientific.
Doge boys, doage boys.
He's going to come in just a moment, all right.
Well, they helped lead sweeping federal spending cuts and stirred controversy.
Yeah, just a little bit over the reach of private power in US government.
It was a time when you would often see Elon and sometimes his young son alongside President Trump in the Oval Office, Elon and the President both taking questions from reporters addressing US government business. That was early on in the year totally. And then of course there was Elon's black eyes seen around the world from the Oval Office, and later the public fallout with President Trump. That still seems to exist on some level. It's kind of news when you see these two together now.
But the bromance not what it was, it seems. Although let's remember in November, Elon was actually back at a White House dinner for Mohammed Ben Salmon NBS Saudi Arabia's crown prints along with other big tech bros.
Remember those sneakers at Elon War. They were all over social media, all right.
Then that's Elon the person. Then there's also Elon Empire, the ev company, the clean energy stuff Tesla facing a backlash protest tied to his ties to the White House and political moves.
And then there's SpaceX. It launched more Falcon rockets, had successful test flights of its starship Mega Rocket, the world's largest and most powerful, shot more Starlink satellites into space, and then in December we all got the long awaited and anticipated news about a possible blockbuster IPO for SpaceX that could be the largest ever with a target evaluation of about one and a half trillion. December two, we
saw Tesla hitting an all time high. It's first in about a year we had to talk about all of this. It's kind of our backdrop.
Max Chafkin is Bloomberg BusinessWeek senior reporter. He's co host of the Everybody's Business podcast. He's the author of the Contrarian Peter Thiel and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power. So, Max, when you think about the year that was for Elon Musk, I mean I think about the politics of it. That's kind of my biggest My biggest takeaway is his closeness and then distance to the President.
Yeah, I mean he was briefly probably the most powerful person in the US government besides Donald Trump. I mean, he was at Trump's side pretty much continuously. Trump made Musk and this this Doge effort, and these young people that Elon Musk brought into government central to the beginning of his administration. It was a big part of this effort early on to kind of like flood the zone, which was a term you heard from Republican operatives.
And that didn't last very long.
But at the same time this year, Elon Musk also increased his net worth, you know, tremendously. He briefly he was briefly not the world's richest man. I think Larry Ellison, I can't remember.
He's a couple of days.
And he got the Tesla board to give him a trillion dollar pay package. So he simultaneously was kind of at the seat of power and getting paid more money than anybody in history. I mean, of course, those two things are related, but they're also complicated by the fact that, as he said to him, the relationship with Trump has been rocky.
You know, he was in the White House but still also running a bunch of companies.
He was running, you know, five companies and that created all sorts of interesting complications, and you kind of see both the way that Elon Musk leveraged his political power in the sort of asset prices of these stocks right where one of the reasons Tesla's value has gone up so much, and that's that's why what has driven Elon Musk net worth is this belief that his proximity to Republicans will allow him to get concessions on policies for
driverless cars. So driverless cars, of course are not widely available. They're sort of different explanations for that. But if you are a teslable, you think one of the explanations is regulatory and you believe that Elon Musk's proximity to power is going to facilitate that. And so we've seen, you know, a dramatic run up in the price of Tesla driving up to Elon musk Networth. It's kind of similar dynamic
with SpaceX, which of course is a government contractor. On the flip side in terms of consumers, Elon Musk's association with what is by now you know, a pretty unpopular presidency has really hurt him and you've sort of seen it in Tesla's sales where Tesla's sales. He did have a decent quarter right as the EV tax credits expired, but overall, I mean, the sales have been really poor.
You're really seeing a backlash. You're seeing a company that managed to alienate a pretty decent swath of its customer base. But for now that doesn't matter because Tesla has sort of transcended into AI, into the AI firmament, and for whatever reason, Tesla has been able to kind of float above that. And I think some of that has to
do with politics. Some of that has to do with Elon musk kind of unique relationship with his investor base and with his fan base, and yeah, it's just kind of the aura of Elon improbably continued this year despite all of the controversy and the black eye and all of that.
It makes me think that even with all of that and the volatility and the pushback maybe among consumers, still a good year.
I mean, if I told you that there were gonna be that Elon Musk was gonna leave the White House having a huge Twitter war with Donald Trump where they'd be trading insults over Epstein, that he would have a literal black guy, that there would be reports in the New York Times which Elon must denied.
About his drug use.
You have the President of the United States commenting on those reports.
You would say like that, you must have.
He must have been a.
Terrible year for Elon. And yet this guy is he is Teflon right. There are there are there are things, reputational things that would hurt other people and that seem to hurt other business people that do not that where he is able to float above it. He has this very like I said, a very unique relationship with his investors and with his fans. And I think that the truth of it is that Elon may say he's done
with politics. He may want to be done with politics, but he can't be done with politics because he is operating in businesses that are are just very close to the political heat. Right, Tesla is doing AI stuff. AI stuff, of course, is going to be sub subject to regulatory scrutiny. You have all this stuff with the AI tax credits. You have his rocket company, which depends on on government contracts. Like,
all of this has politics baked into it. So he can't get away from politics if he wants to run his companies. This idea that he could step away from politics to run his business empire. It almost doesn't make sense if you actually understand what his business empire is.
There's a great story in the Bloomberg Tesla's Musk Premium in focus with the SpaceX ipo on the horizon, and it reminds us that the shares are up more than one hundred percent since April eighth, making it one of the best performers in the S and P five hundred index. We won't talk about the valuation because that always freaks
out everybody because it's pretty high. Having said that, I want to talk about its businesses because go back to Kathy Wood in the early days, who talked and was a big supporter, likened Elon to a Thomas Edison of our times. Is he you know Max when it's Neuralink, it's AI, it's Grock, it's SpaceX, it's Starlink, Like, there's a lot of stuff boring company.
I don't even know what's going on with that anymore.
Is he still though kind of seen as a creative genius and moving the needle in our world?
Well, he's within some corners of the business world. He is absolutely seen as as somebody on that level, on the Thomas Edison level. I mean, I think in terms
of inventions and and that comparison. He didn't invent electric cars, he didn't invent the rocket engine that he is he's using, But but he has been a very successful at sort of taking existing technologies and manufacturing them and marketing him you know, he's it's it's almost a cliche to compare him to Steve Jobs, but I think it's similar to
Steve Jobs. It's it's not he's not a technical genius, but he is really really good at marketing and sort of understanding how to how to create, you know, products, whether those are products that are sold to the government or products that are sold to consumers. And I mean, I think you also have to say he is pretty
good at managing investors and managing politics. I mean, as messed up as it was, as chaotic as it was, he managed to play a pretty big role in Donald Trump's election, and he is still like a political powerbroker, and he's he's going to continue to be that, I think in the years to come.
I feel like the bulk of this conversation was about politics rather than his businesses. Does that say something or or the politics is what really supports As you said, they're intertwined in many ways, right.
I mean, I think the story around Elon now is an investor story. It's it's a story about investors making a bet and believing, as you said, Carol, running that stock up really really high, based on a belief in the future. And it's it's less about what the company is doing now, because what the company is doing now, ESLA is doing now anyway, has not been particularly successful.
But it's a belief that you know, driverlest cars are coming any day now, and you know there are a lot of people in the stock market who think that's true.
So we're not gonna hear about him in twenty twenty.
Okay, So just we could have done this for twenty thirty forty minutes, Max, we.
Barely scratch the surface.
Yeah, twenty twenty six SpaceX's IPO. I imagine we are going to be spending quite a bit of time talking about Elon next year.
I mean, we're definitely gonna be talking about Elon. I think that, you know, we'll see if that IPO happens on schedule.
You're a little skeptical, No, No, I'm not skeptical.
I just think it's very I think anytime we're talking about a mega IPO like that, we're talking about trying to time the markets, and and I think there's just a lot of uncertainty in the market. So so yeah, I mean, if markets are doing what they're currently doing, then I think there's a very good chance that Elon Musk might say, yeah, this is this makes sense. On the other hand, he has for years and years and years talked about how much he hates running a public company.
Remember he nuked his reputation like seven years ago because he hated having Tesla a public so much. And I think it makes sense to do it again with SpaceX, just because the public markets give him so much leverage. His ability to just get whatever he wants from the stock market and from kind of retail investors is so important. Would be helpful to SpaceX, just as it's helpful to Tesla.
But if he can't do that at a good price, I don't think he will because why would he doesn't necessarily have to.
I gotta ask, and I know we have to wrap but X formally Twitter is I we talk about it, I know, is it just didn't significant or it's just I don't even know does he even use it that much anymore?
You know, I think part so x is definitely less like broadly influential than it used to be as a kind of like media thing.
Now.
Part of that is because Elon Musk brought back all these kind of right wingers who were banned for various reasons, and the site has become sort of more of a conservative social network. Right, it's kind of like Fox News to Instagram's you know, MSNBC or something like that. And so as a result, right it doesn't have the same kind of broad influence where but it is still very influential kind of on the right. It is where like if you are if you're on the right, it's where
you're talking to your friends, rivals, et cetera. The other thing is like it's it's like an AI thing now it's just a it's just a way for grock x AI Elon Musk's answer, just chat GPT to to sort of gather information. And so for those it's it's not like it's become less valuable. I think, in fact, it's probably become more valuable over the last year, but it's probably less influential than it was.
Max Chafkin, we could go on with you for hours. We appreciate you taking the time. That's Max Chaffkin, Bloomberg BusinessWeek Senior reporter. He's the co host of the Everybody's Business podcast. He's the author of The Concherion, Peter Thiel and Silicon Valley's Pursuit of Power.
And that wraps up our first hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio.
Coming up in the next.
Sixty minutes a holiday reading list, perhaps including an eye opening exploration into digital empires and the global regulation of AI technology.
Plus unlocking the best in one another. That's what behavioral psychologist John Leevy calls collective genius. And he was the CEO of John Bajuice, on the board of the honest Company CAVA, and now he's helping others build an organization with purpose.
James D. White joins us in the next hour.
This is Bloomberg Business Week. I'm Carol Masser.
And I'm Tim Stenebeck.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern Listen on Applecarplay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on.
YouTube Plenty Ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, It's a holiday reading list from some of the authors we spoke to in the last few months, including one the author of a book about an alternative way we think about great leaders, and I gotta tell you it just may be time to throw out all those other management books. We will talk to the author of Team Intelligence, how brilliant leaders unlock collective genius.
Plus the former CEO of jam Bajus on shaping company culture in the age of gen Z employees. First up this hour, though our phones, our data, the apps we use every day. Behind it all is a quiet but consequential power struggle over who gets to make the rules of the digital world. Our next guest examines how the world's biggest powers, the US, China and the EU are exporting their digital rule books and what that means for all of us. The question how is the future of the digital world going?
To Look For help Answering that question, Emily Graffeo and Tim spoke to a new Bradford.
She is Henry L.
Moses Professor of Law and International Organization at Columbia Law School. She's also the author of the book Digital Empires, The Global Battle to regulate Technology.
So thanks so much for having me, Tim and Emily. We may well be cooked, but the question is what are we most worried about. I think there are many exciting developments. I think we're certainly more entertained in many ways. But at the same time, I think those who warned us early on that this is not the kind of AI revolution that we should be just leaving for the tech companies to govern to manage. We do need governments involved.
We need some guardrails, we need some regulation to make sure that these fast advances that we are witnessing are moving to the direction that we're comfortable with.
It seems like it's too late, though.
I don't think it's too late. I think we certainly are not at the point where we can say that AI is done. I think we will continue to see massive developments in coming years, and we already have AI governance regulation on the radar of many lawmakers. And obviously the Europeans have been most proactive, as they usually are, and they have the AI a comprehensive piece of legislation that is already in force, and now it's then the
matter of implementing it effectively. And then we also need to see what happens in the United States at the state level. China is definitely interested in governing AI. We have many other jurisdictions, so I think there is a lot that is happening and a lot more that needs to be done.
In your new book, Digital Empires, you break apart how basically different regimes across the globe are governing and regulating AI differently. So there's the US, there's Europe, there's China. In your research, have you found one nation is kind of doing that balancing act the best so far in terms of balancing out They don't want to stifle innovation, but they also want to protect users of AI, consumers of AI, companies that are getting involved with AI. Who's doing balancing act the best?
In your view?
So I think any regulator really needs to think about this balancing to make sure that we harness these tremendous benefits that are associated with AI, but also really safeguard
our citizens and societies from various risks. And in many ways, there is a perception that the Europeans are airing on the side or preemptively protecting against these risks and maybe then foregoing some of the innovation benefits, whereas the Americans would be airing on the side of maybe being very techno optimists and not thinking about all those potential downsides.
I think in many ways I do like and endorse the European model in the sense that, in my view, that best safeguards the public interest and really takes seriously the fundamental rights of individuals and democratic structures of the society. But there is always I really reject this notion that this comes at the cost of innovation. There definitely is a gap where the Americans are doing much better in
generating AI innovations compared to the Europeans. But the reason is not that the Europeans are so keen on regulating. I think there are many other reasons that explain why. There are just fundamental pillars of the tech ecosystem in the US that are much stronger and the Europeans have fallen short in replicating that. So regulation as such, the protection of those rights is not a choice that needs to come at the cost of making beneficial progress in this space.
So you know, I keep going back to our conversation that I had with you two years ago, because the world has changed so much since then. Two years ago, Joe Biden was president, there were a lot of folks who didn't think that Donald Trump would win another term. Fast forward two years, Donald Trump is the president. David Sachs's crypto and aisar the regime is thinks about this completely differently than I think it's fair to say the Biden administration. What do you think the US needs to
be doing right now to regulate this technology? What would you like to see David Sachs do?
Yeah, so you're so right. There has been a complete U turn in many ways. Towards the end of the Biden administration. There was closer alignment between the traditional Transatlantic allies, where the US was really moving closer to the European view that technology like AI needs guardrails, and there was a genuine attempt to join forces among the world's techno democracies in order to halt the advances of Chinese digital
authoritarian views of governing technology. So I really saw this potential for the US and the EU to join forces to bring about a very beneficial chase in this space. The US is doing, I think two things. So it's first of all, giving a lot more power to the tech companies, walking away from regulation, impraising these deregulatory zeal that really reflects the very strong form of Technolbertarian techno optimist firl wheel. But in many ways, the US is
also playing Beijing's game and becoming very state driven. We see a nassive state investment in some of these leading tech companies. We see our export controls, investment restrictions, we see subsidies. So the US is, to me are losing
some of its own goals. And if you think about how that will also impact the US's adamant goal of being a leader in AI, what is happening in the space of integration, I think that is really counterproductive if you think about where all those AI innovation comes innovations come from the US. So what the US would need to do first, The US would need to regulate this space.
We need to make sure that fundamental rights are protected, we need to make sure that those societal risks are under control, and we need to also, at the same time make sure that we will continue to invest in the development of the AI by retaining the world's best talent, which often is immigrant talent, including then Chinese data scientists who have been contributing to advances in this space in the US.
Is there any specific regulation that comes to mind like that you would want to see in the US that would prevent this kind of idea that Tim presented in the beginning of the segment about this, the spaghetti test. It sounds silly, the will Smith spaghetti test, but it gets.
At the heart crazy.
Yeah, concerned that people have that suddenly the Internet is going to be, you know, filled with these videos.
We're we are and we think it's the end.
I'm sorry, well, maybe we can have a professor help, she said.
She said, it's not the end already, great.
Right, for it's not the end. Is there a specific piece of regulation that that comes to mind? Is it about I don't know, digital privacy, people needing disclaimers on top of every video that you see on the Internet.
So I think there are many aspects, and there's no easy way to say that you just need to do one thing in order to then address this multitude of different arms. But one thing, it does start from the protection of privacy and our agency and our ability to be able to tell what is fiction and what is not, and our ability to engage in conversation based on real
information that is not manipulated by our AI. And this information obviously existed even without chat GPT type of tools, but they are now fueled with this AI driven ability to manipulate our sense of reality. So in many ways, I think it does need labeling. It does need the kind of transparency and accountability that we have a sense of how these AI systems are built and how we engage with them. But then there are also risks around
and just protecting content content creators. We need to take copyright seriously and the idea of how we actually train these models with the data that has been generated by individual authors, by journalists, and that needs to be also compensated well so that we still have the incentive to engage in that kind of content production. But privacy is obviously very high on my list, This information is very
high on my list. Then there are questions that are more about existential risks, more about systemic risks, And even if it's hard to sometimes know the probabilities of some of the most severe risks and how likely they are to materialize, we still need to be prepared to also as a society, to confront that kind of reality when AI advance is really fast and we reach the point
when we find even harder to govern that technology. So I think there are all these layers, and we are not even really having, at least at the federal level, a real conversation in how we go about regulating this space.
Professor Anu Bradford Henry el Moses, Professor of Law and an International Organization at Columbia Law School. She's the author of several books, including her most recent Digital Empires, The Global Battle to Regulate Technology, published back in twenty twenty three, but as relevant right now as it was two years ago. Please do come back soon and join us here on at Bloomberg Business Week Daily.
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily Podcast. Listen live each weekday starting at two pm Eastern on Apple car Play and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our Flag New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Elon has it, so too does President Trump and Steve Jobs also as well.
We're talking about leadership. I mean, these are all leaders. John Leevy thinks about leadership a lot. He argues, though, that one thing all leaders have in common is not the thing that we're told when it comes to these executive coaches or these business school courses, like you know, empathy or humility, those.
Sorts of things.
He says, it's something else. John Levy is a behavioral scientist and New York Times bestselling author. He's got a new book out, Team Intelligence, How brilliant leaders unlock collective genius.
Let's think about it like this. Elon Musk or Steve Jobs, Right, they weren't great at creating psychological safety or even getting consensus among their leadership. Yet people still hold them up
as these examples of amazing leaders. The problem is that what we've been sold is that, and mostly through universities like Harvard, Gale and so on, is that we have to have these essential skills if you want to be a leader, and if you pay them a whole lot of money, they'll teach you those skills and then you'll be a certified leader. Congratulations. The problem is it just doesn't track. When we really started looking at this, there was only one trait that was common across all leaders.
What is it?
It's that they have followers. It's so self referential and it's kind of ridiculous, and so we really wanted to ask the question. Then, Okay, what causes us to follow someone? Generally people say, okay, it's vision and charisma, but that doesn't make sense. There are plenty of people who have no vision and no charisma, still people follow them.
Yeah.
So the answer, it turns out, comes down to this. Do you remember how you felt when you were in high school on Sunday at six pm? The Sunday scaries? Now, why you think about this? You were free, you were at home, but you felt anxious. Friday at one o'clock you were in class. But how did you feel?
Great?
Yeah, so exciting, ecstatic. And that's because as human beings don't relate to the present, they relate to the future that they believe they have. If you can make me feel you don't live in the moment, definitely not. We believe we tend to have this association right now to what we think is about to happen. And so in high school on Sunday, what was going to happen was school the next day? Or if you're about to leave for vacation. You might be sitting at work, but you're
wildly excited. The reason we follow somebody is because when we interact with them or their media, they cause us to feel that there'll be a new and better future. That's it.
So that's fascinating. So let's take it to somebody.
President Trump is that kind of his success or where he is today?
It's because of that.
I would argue that people in general vote for whoever they feel will cause them to have a new and better future, whether it's President Trump or it's investing into Elon Musk's companies. Listen, when you read the report of what he's like as a boss at Elon, right, it's not the type of boss that we exemplify.
I mean, you might not even have to read reports of what he's like as a boss. You could just follow him on social media and he had a good understanding of his personality.
And when you do, you have to ask yourself like, is this really the person I'd want to be reporting to? And the answer is maybe not. But what he's amazing at is he has a handful of super skills that nobody else has. Right, he thinks at scale and moves faster than anyone in our society. And those super skills are so profound that when we interact with him, people will either say, hey, we'll give him a trillion dollar bonus, right, or we will come and work for you, or we
want to launch things into space. But it's not because he's charismatic.
Right, I mean, look at the example of when he pieced together the Doge team. What was the what were the qualifications that he put out there? Right, you have to work eighty hours a week, You're not going to get paid. Yeah, and you know he has sign he had people from all over the country who not just wanted to work with him, but believed in his mission.
Yeah.
It's really kind of fascinating. So the things that we get, so being nice and generous is not necessarily things that are going to make a good leaders.
So I want to separate two things though. Okay, let's separate being an effective leader from having followers. Having followers just means that people feel that you'll have a new and better or they'll feel doesn't mean you will correct because you could have somebody who's incompetent leading a bunch of morons frankly and get nowhere When we actually started looking at the research of what causes teams to be
really effective. It came from a woman named Anita Williams Willie, and what she found in running a whole series of experiments is that none of the things that we actually thought actually make a team more effective. Right, So IQ of the smartest person no effect, average IQ, no effect. How much people liked each other not a great predictor, right. Do you need to trust each other, sure, or think
that somebody's competent. Yeah, but you don't necessarily need to want to invite everybody you work with your wedding or something like that. The single greatest predictor the number of women on the team.
Yeah.
And I want to be clear, it's not because they're women. It's not a chromosomal thing. We're not out of a job. Don't worry.
It was looking at me.
Yeah, it's because women index high on emotional intelligence, and so there are plenty of men with high emotional intelligence, plenty of women who don't have any.
But this makes a better Wait, so more women on a team means what.
That, on average, you have more emotional intelligence on the team, and then the team can function better because they can coordinate better, and then they outperform because when you have a single person sport, it's all about pure talent, right or activity. But when you have a group, you've gone from taking your shots to passing either information or the ball. Now, if I can't communicate with you, we are not going
to be able to work well together. Right. Having that high emotional intelligence on the team means that we know when to push on a topic and when not to, who to call on even if they're being quiet and get the information out.
Your behavioral side, well, what is your credential in this? Because you've studied behavioral science, but you know there are entire curricula that are dedicated to teaching leadership that ostensibly have evidence backed you know, elements that are backed by studies that say this is the right way.
To do things.
And you're essentially saying that's not really the right predictor here, we have been looking at the right thing. What's the evidence that you have when it comes to number.
Of followers or people who are actually.
Following this charismatic personality that says this is the right outcome.
So let's separate a few things on the team stuff. There's a bunch of research. I mentioned Anita Williams Willie, and there's several studies that back the same thing that teams with more emotional intelligence outperform on the leadership side. When you actually look at all of the studies on people who've gotten MBAs versus those didn't, there they find that there's absolutely no improvement in performance whatsoever having an
NBA versus not compared. And there's like several of these studies on the three year mark, five year mark, seven year mark, there's no evidence in better management skills or anything like that. And so the skills that we're told are essential, we might not really be able to train them in the way that these programs are running.
The reason I ask about your reason, I know you want to jump in, but the reason I ask about the credentialing here is because you have this background and having these dinners hosting thousands of people over the last ten years, fifteen people, fifteen years, four thousand people. These are private influencer dinners where you have had no about laureates Limp. You were listening tones together from two to
five people. What the takeaways that you've been able to gather from getting this disparate group of people together or watch us live on you.
So there's kind of two main things that I've really noticed. The first is that all of them are at the top of their industry, whether they're commanding the International Space Station or they're running a major company, and none of them have the same characteristics at all. Malala does not produce results in the same way as a military commander, but people follow and will go very far in both
cases right to support that cause. The second is, and this is kind of a wilder thing that people don't really notice, is that no matter how successful people are, they tend not to feel like they fit in or belong because the CEO knows that they've had three great quarters, but if the next two are off there, they might be out of a job. And the olympian knows that maybe they won at the last Olympics, but who knows if they'll even qualify at the next one, and then
no one will care. And so no matter what, there's this absolute factor that people feel a great desire to want to fit in and belong, which brings me to my real desire to understand is clearly those leadership traits didn't matter. And if there's such a great desire to belong. It's because human beings tend to be best with each other. So let's try and understand at our core what will
allow us to be best with each other. And that's what the book explores, which is what are the characteristics that makes teams smarter than the sum of their parts?
Okay, so why if that is our driving force?
When I look at Congress, and I know you layer politics.
On things, and things change. But if we are better.
They cannot be studied.
If we are better as a group and a community, and yes.
Indeed right, they have to vote on things, and so when they work together, things can actually move forward, or at least move.
Why does that not work its way out?
So that's I think a great question. And I want to be very clear. I don't study politics. I'm not an actually and.
Full disclosure like you lay politics on everything.
And so a little bit different.
I'm under the impression that things changed, and this is what I've been told after Newt Gingridge was in Congress, because he really pushed for less cooperation and also for people to spend more time in their home districts. Now, when that occurs, then we have something called the mirror exposure effect. The mirror exposure effect is simply here's the funny thing. Have you ever what would you consider the greatest painting of all time?
Well, people will say Mona Lisa exactly.
Do you know why?
Isn't it the perfectly symmetrical.
That's what tell you. But that's frankly not true. In nineteen eleven, a man walked into the Louver on a Monday while it was closed. The louver was protected by eleven mostly drunk lesionnaires, and walked into the Renaissance section, ripped the smallest painting he could off the wall, took it out of its frame, and then wrapped in a workman's bock and walked out.
That was the Mona Lisa, wasn't it?
Yeah? Yeah.
Newspapers around the world spread images of it, and it's the first time almost anybody had ever heard of it. It was not considered a great painting. Three years later it was returned once again. Newspapers around the world rejoiced. And it was a way too. It was the build up to World War One, so it was a way to make fun of the French government and it's incompetence.
At the time.
Now, human beings tend to like and trust the things that they're familiar with. And when you see you're the person who might be across the aisle picking up kids at school and your kids are in the same class, and you're at the same birthday parties, and you've developed familiarity and trust and all these other factors outside of that voting room, then suddenly you tend to treat people with more humanity and have a greater ability to work
with them. And so much like the Mona Lisa is not really a great painting if you actually speak to historians, the lack of that mere exposure and the trust that develops from interacting outside of these traditional negotiations, Yeah, we've lost a lot to that well.
And we always bring up Alan Greenspan saying years ago about how when he was in Washington, people actually Democrats Republicans went to cocktail parties together, and so you know, you have a glass of wine with somebody and yeah, you know, you kind of relate. You're much more relatable, if you will, John, this was really really fun. Hopefully we can catch up again in the future.
I'd be honored.
Thank you for having me.
Yeah, John Levy, he's a behavioral scientist New York Times bestselling author. His new book is Team Intelligence, How Brilliant Leaders unlock collective genius.
Joining us right here in studio.
Were you invited to one of those secret dinners?
Ever, it's secret, so I can't tell.
Okay, yeah, same, same.
You are listening to the Bloomberg Business Weekdaily Podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Apple CarPlay and Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.
From this small town on the central coast of California.
Wait, you're from California.
Yeah, it's known for a few things. We've got the last operating nuclear power plan in the state. You do, That's why I'm glowing. Yes, Hurst Castle is right there.
Oh it is right.
Yeah, I forgot about that.
Also, there's this little smoothie shop. When I was growing up, it was called Juice Club, and on for special treats after school, I would get to go to Juice Club. My parents would take me there or a babysitter would take us there.
It's like you loved it.
Yeah, it was started by this guy who went to cal Poly and Juice Club is what John Bajuice was before they did a rebrand, did an IPO and became the company that it's known for now.
I love that.
So John Bajuice is it began? It began his Juice Club on you know, on Foothill.
James D.
White knows all about this. He's former CEO of John Bajuice. He led it from two thousand and eight to twenty sixteen. He's also the author of several books. His new book out this month, along with Krista White, called Culture Design How to Build a high performing, resilient organization with Purpose. He's also the chairman of the board of The Honest Company. He's co founder, chair and CEO of Culture Design Lab. He's a board member at the fast casual chain Kava.
He joins U from Scottsdale, Arizona. Good to have you on the program, James, how are you.
Sam and Carl?
Thanks for hosting me.
When you were CEO of John But did you ever get to go to that foothill location in San Luis Obispo. Absolutely the original that was the one.
Okay, that's amazing.
And got to spend time with Kirk Paar and the fantastic founder who we lost a few years ago.
Yeah, very tragic.
Well, I want to talk a little bit about culture design, how to build a high performing, resilient organization with purpose. But first I just want to remind everybody about what John Bajuice was when you were leading it from two thousand and eight to twenty sixteen. It's now owned by a private equity firm, but it did have a life as a publicly traded company. What was John Bajuice under your tenure?
Well, I joined Jamba in December two thousand and eight and led the company through a turnaround in transformation. We're a public company. Market cap over my tenure increase by five hundred percent. We really reposition the company from a smoothie chain the more healthy lifestyle brand. But had a great run, you know, twenty eight quarters as a public company, CEO.
So tell us about like going through your experiences and kind of what you learned in terms of running a company, building a company, going through different cycles.
What that has taught you.
I think for me, the place I always started, I just go back to really my first week on the job at Jamba is you start with the people, You start with the key stakeholders. And you know, for me, as I go back to that first week, we asked, you know, four simple questions, what should the organization start doing, what should we stop doing? And what are the things that are working well that we should continue. And then the final bonus question is what advice would you have
for me as CEO? And we really leverage that approach with really all of our stakeholder groups and use that to build a plan to turn around and transform the company.
Uh.
But I always start with people first. The thesis of our book is companies have culture by designer default, So always be intentional in building a company's culture.
So, so talk about who those key stakeholders are. Uh, And then I have this this follow up question that I think Carol will nod because she kind of knows exactly where I'm going. When you when you started, when you start on a board or when you're you know, a decision maker at a company, who are the stakeholders you speak to understand the culture?
Yeah, I always start with the employees because they actually know what actually needs to be done to you know, really re energize or strengthen the company. So I started with the one hundred or so employees that we're in our support center that supported all our stores. Obviously the frontline workforce is a source of fantastic input the border directors, key suppliers, but also we talk to consumers as a part of that processes. We formulated the original Transformation Planet job book.
So connect that with company performance because every you know in Zoom just reporter earnings for example, and when we look at any company that reports it's most recent quarter, we talk about numbers like the outlook. We talk about top line revenue, we talk about margins, we talk about outlooks, or we talk about what happened in the current quarter. What we don't talk about is the company's culture. We don't talk about how happy employees are or if they're
not happy. We don't talk about customer satisfaction because investors don't necessarily trade on those things. How do you connect those non tangibles to the actual numbers that a public company reports.
Yeah, the way I think about it is, and I've got a colleague amount of board Talagmoment says, the human capital drives the financial capital, and that directly relates to the people and relates to the company culture. We think
about culture being the huge unlocked in this environment. And the reason we wrote the book Culture Design is we've felt like with the dramatic change over the course of the last five years, the thing that we've not talked about as much as we need to as we look at hybrid ork the influences of AI is the company culture and how that shift needs to happen. The best companies become changed savvy in terms of how they lead
the companies moving forward. And the book has three pillars, Knowing what matters that's really about the context that the company operates in doing what matters? How do you operationalize culture? How does culture really live day to day inside an organization? And then anything in business that matters, you actually measure it in the You know, there are both hard and
soft measurements. You know, employee engagement, there's pole surveys, there's net promoter scores, but there's employee net promoter scores that are one of the things that I find incredibly helpful. But the best leaders are thinking harder about this, whether they're in the boardroom or running companies today.
Hey, James, one thing I want to ask you, and I'm just curious you wrote this with your daughter, Krista, and I was just looking at one thing in I think it's Paige and ninety six here and how she has kind of taught you that an effective leader actually shares a lot of their life journey is a lot
more transparent with folks at work. And it's interesting, like I've often heard people like, your personal life is your personal life, don't bring it to the office, keep them separate, Like you just don't share stuff, and yet you know your lifeline is in there and like all the things that you've gone through in your life. And I'm just the importance of like leaders and leadership sharing their life journey with the folks that work with them.
We think that empathy is really a core capability. And one of the things that I've learned in my work with my millennial daughter is, you know, kind of sharing more of myself really strengthens the ability for me to connect with leaders and people on a really different level. So this is not really where I started as a leader, but have kind of learned this over the arc of
a career, and it's really a force multiplier. When we get to know each other as human beings, we can find the things that are common and what I found from a leadership perspective is that allows you to unlock the full potential of the organization by being more human and kind of humanizing the leader. We interviewed one leader that describes his version of this as he provides new
teams that he joined Sam Bright. He runs Google Play, he describes a user manual on how to best work with him as a leader, and he does some of the same kinds of things where he shares information on his family and background, which is really a shortcut to how we might work best together as colleagues.
James, before I let you go, you've written this is not your first book that you've written along with your daughter Krista. Back in twenty twenty two, he wrote Anti Racist Leadership, How to Transform Corporate Culture in a Race conscious World. We spent a lot of time, Carol and I've been doing this together for five years, and over that period of time, the conversation around DEI has changed a lot. Most recently, the iteration is these companies getting rid of DEI programs, not talking about.
It any not being a conversation around Yeah.
I mean we're talking.
We're doing a deep dive on target in just a few minutes and they've gone through their own issues with this. I'm just wondering what the state of how you view DEI and anti racism now in twenty twenty five, and how that's different among a C suite executives versus twenty twenty two.
Yes, I think the conversation has definitely changed. But I think the best leaders, at least the best leaders that I work with, they've got a true north. They're very focused on their values and they know that if you put people first and you create an environment where all the humans get to do their best work, you're going to always win. And what I always advise companies and the leaders that I work with, the labeling of things
I'm less concerned with. I'm more concerned with, you know, really the true north of the organization and how we focused on creating environments where everybody can do their very best work, and that starts with people and it starts with culture by design.
I would assume that then that is like if you had to give one piece of advice to leaders that are out there and they get so much advice, But I'm just curious, is that what it would be or something else and just got about forty seconds here.
It would be you know, really put the human beings, the people in your organization first and work hard to create and design environments where they can do their very best work and bring their full selves to the organization. And I think it will yield great benefits that will deliver high performance results.
Well, very much appreciate it, James, Thank you so much.
James D.
White, former CEO of Jambajuice. He led the company from twenty eight to twenty sixteen. He is the co author of a book app.
That he did with his daughter. Second book that he did with his daughter.
This book though Culture Design, How to build a high performing, resilient organization with Purpose.
And you can catch that book. It is out now. James, thank you so much.
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