Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - December 22nd, 2023

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Hi everyone, Merry Christmas, and welcome to the Bloomberg Business Week Weekend Podcast. Carol is off this week, so we'll have Bloomberg News Equities reporter Bailey Lipschultz and Cross Asset reporter Emily Grafeo filling in as we celebrate the season

Well, So, mice, as many people may know, are a very common model animal in scientific research, and this scientist in particular was giving mice ovarian tumors to try and figure out whether a hormone called AMH that both men and women produce lots of, whether that hormone could treat the ovarian tumors. And when he did that, he gave them this AMH gene therapy. And when he did that, he realized something incredible was happening. Whether they actually treated

And are we seeing this AMH or other types of science being used in more advanced animals, like more similar animals cats, dogs.

Cats, Yeah, you must have read the story. I was very excited to get a cat reference into the story as a crazy cat lady. Yeah, so AMAH could have a lot of potential uses because it does have this really powerful sway over the whole reproductive system. And so his first thought was, actually, well, maybe I could make a better birth control with less side effects, And so he decided to test that in cats and cats it's a permanent birth control instead of removing their reproductive organs.

So how can scientists and researchers extrapolate what's happening in the ovaries and apply that across a broad spectrum for longevity?

Right?

So what's really interesting about the ovaries beyond just the idea that you might be able to slow menopause or extend a woman's number of fertile years, which would be incredible on their own. Incredible on their own. Yeah, But so it's really hot to study aging in general because there's not a great you know, we can study it in mice, but how similar are mice related to humans?

Right?

We can only learn so much about aging in humans by studying animals that age much faster. Right, A mouse has a much faster life cycle. So it's better to study these things, But it's not similar enough to humans to really know how it would do in humans, how these therapies would do in humans. But the ovaries, they are a human organ, and they happen to be a human organ that ages at twice the rate of the rest of the body. But it also ages in a

What's the funding dynamic right now? I know it's been a long story about women's health not receiving the funding or their share of the share of funding that you would expect. How does longevity and the potential for longevity play into that?

Oh my gosh, this is one of those things that any woman who reads this figure are like, what that if women were not forced to be included in clinical trials in the United States until like, very very recently.

I think it's so crazy.

Yeah, I think it was two thousand and nineteen ninety three, nineteen ninety nin eighty three. Thank you, I don't have it in front of me. Yeah, that's so recent. Was I was in kindergarten then before they started including women in clinical trials. And that's because there hasn't been interest in women's health. But there's a lot of interest in longevity in you know, lots of people in Silicon Valley wanting to live forever. And so once you cast the problem of the ovaries as a problem not just of

This work based on your reporting and what you saw reporting out this piece help promising is the research that's being done.

Well, it's promising enough that I have convinced myself will never have to go through menopause. I'm thirty seven. I don't know how realistic that is. I don't know how realistic that is. But I do think that there's really really promising work that is starting to enter human clinical trials. Not the mouth stuff that's not quite there yet, that's

And Christ And this may be a dumb question in terms of a clinical trial, though, if you're treating cancer, you can at least compare a placebo versus someone who's on a drug and how much longer they live. How do you study the reproduction like that women's reproduction and whether these work or not.

That's a good question. Well, so, in previous studies they have looked at some of the signaling in the ovaries of women who are slightly older, right like forties, late thirties versus younger women, and you can see the rapid decline.

You you'll go ahead, No, I guess coming back to the timeline, drug development's risky, it's expensive. Are there companies that are funding or a lot of these studies being done at universities?

Yeah, both both.

There are some companies in the space. One of the big companies that I write about that came out of the guy doing the amazing mousework, Aviva. They say that their first therapy, which will be for infertility, is a couple of years away from clinical trials, and their second therapy is you know, maybe a couple of years behind not so, I mean, which which is not a long time in the time time scale of clinical trials. So there are companies that are working on bringing this stuff to the clinics soon.

Christian, you made this comment that stuck with me, which is in Silicon Valley, a lot of people are interested in longevity, and that's certainly what we see, and we talked to actually Advance yesterday, who you know, had the chance to go and visit this lab that and startup that you know has one hundred and eighty million dollars in funding from Sam Waltman, a huge figure in Silicon Valley right now, do you think we're to the point where the idea of longevity, the study of longevity, the

Yeah, I definitely do. And I think that you have to separate the people who want to you know, put their brain in some kind of freezer box, in a computer leader or something. Those guys, this sort of transhumanists, from the people who really want to understand the biological mechanisms at the root of aging, because we really don't understand so much of why aging occurs. Right, Obviously, time environment,

Well, it makes me have the question about the way that drug companies approach this, which is treating things that lead to death, things that you mentioned in your article cancer, heart disease, trying to solve for those things rather than solving for preventing those things. It's like two different approach is here?

Yeah, it's two different approaches And I think a lot of that comes down to it. It's hard to know, Like we talked about why the ovary is such a good model for this, right, how do you know if your aging therapy is working? You have to follow people for a really long time, which doesn't mean they won't happen eventually, right, But in drug development, a lot of what happens is we figure out something works, but we

Well, one of the numbers that stood out to me was in the story you have It, the market for longevity drugs could reach more than forty four billion dollars within the next decade. I look at that. Everyone wants to talk about GLP ones and that's hundred billion dollar market value. So I'm surprised that there's not more funding and more of an advancement from private equity venture capital given that. I mean, it's more than double. But that's not a small pool of money, right, Yeah, it's not off.

It's not a small pool of money. But I think that the time scale and how hard it is to know whether it's working does make it a riskier intervention versus weightless. You know, you either lose the weight or you don't sell.

It's light easier. Everyone's on it.

Everyone's on it, so we're told. So I hear.

Okay, we only have a couple of minutes left, but I wanted to make sure to get to other stories that you've written recently, because you've been very busy. It's not just the cover story of Bloomberg Business. You also have a story out about sick shaming, pushing Americans to take too much cold medicine. We're talking about this during the break, and it's like, what's going on here? Because when we're in you know, quote unquote lockdowns, when we're

Is that what's going on?

Yeah?

Okay, So this story actually came out of a personal experience of my own. I've started just carrying around cough drops and I take them all the time, even if the reason I have a cough is because I swallowed something weird, or you know, it's wintertime. It's very dry in the Bloomberg offices, right now, so my makes my throat always dry, so I just pop cough drops even when I'm not sick.

You can know that I can go to you for coffee.

Yeah yeah, I have. I have a huge stash in my desk, so come on by h And I started to wonder are other people doing this?

Is it good for you?

It can't be good for you to take this main cough drops. I mean the calories alone, right, got to add up. That's why you need the GLP ones anyways, So so we looked into it. I looked into it with our great reporter Kaye Lapara, and we found that absolutely, you can take too much cough and cold medicine. It is not a good idea, and that this is a thing that is happening. People feel pressure to go to work, to go to Thanksgiving dinner, to go to happy hours

Just looking at some of the numbers, I mean US sales of upper respiratory over the counter medications of twenty three percent to almost twelve billion dollars in the fifty two weeks through early December.

Great for them, bad for us.

It's bad for us.

Yeah, totally. I mean, I feel like I'm coming down to something just talking about this.

Probably got it from me. Yeah, just kidding.

Well, I'll get some cough drops from me. Okay.

Hey.

Check out all of Christian's stories available on the Bloomberg Terminal and at Bloomberg dot com, and pick up the new issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek. It's the Longevity issue on Newstance. It's already online at Bloomberg dot com, slash BusinessWeek and on the Bloomberg Terminal. Kristin B. Brown is healthcare reporter for Bloomberg News. Joining us this afternoon and the Bloomberg Interactive broke their studio.

This is Business Week. You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen.

On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and.

The Bloomberg Business App, or watch us live on YouTube.

The title of managing director at Wall Street Firms is typically the most senior rank in finance apart from those who are executives. It's a position that comes with enhanced compensation and presumably power, and women at that level are often touted by banks as examples of how gender is no bar to advancement. But Ardith Lindsay, who joined City Bank back in two thousand and seven, is now suing the bank, accusing it of tolerating years of sexual harassment

Hey, folks, thanks for having me, and this is a really important story. And Ardith sat down with me and recently and told me sort of her side of the story.

In the story, there are a few people quoted who said it gets worse. There was a subhead in your story just it gets worse. Can you talk about why that is and what these people that you interviewed actually said that they're working at a firm, they're getting more and more senior, but they're women, and so somehow their experience at the firm is getting more unpleasant.

Certainly, so one person that I interviewed for this story was Jamie Fiori Higgins. She's a former Goldman Sachs managing director and in twenty twenty two she actually wrote a book about her experience called.

Bully Market had on the program.

Yeah, and it was a very very compelling story. And you know, I interviewed her and she had the chance to review artist's complaints in her allegations mentioned in the lawsuit against city. And you know, she said, based on her experience at Goldman Sachs that there, as you sort of ascend that corporate ladder, if you will, the stakes get higher as you get high. As you get higher,

So you were able to speak with artists at length about this, you were able to look at the lawsuit and the allegations contained in the lawsuit for its part, What did City say when you presented them with what you've learned?

So City referred us to a sort of a previous statement that they that they mentioned. But you know, City did call one of the named individuals and artists complaint, They did call the conduct deplorable, and they did have the they have had had this time to review the

And she's right now on leave from city, correct, So we know, we don't know how this plays out, if she will actually return in her previous capacity to the firm.

Indeed, and I think that it's also very important to note that these are allegations. This is a lawsuit that's run forward and been brought forward, and we have to sort of let the legal process proceed as it may. But it is worth noting that, just to step back here, there have been multiple lawsuits brought against other banks as well, not just City Group. Smith Barney settled for one hundred and fifty million. That was the infamous nineteen nineties Boom

You mentioned City kind of telling employees they should raise a flag. What exactly does that mean, you know, raise a flag to other misconduct. Are the big banks actually doing anything else to try and combat this kind of workplace culture.

I think that's a good question, and I think frankly it will be at least in this manner. We'll have to sort of let the judge and review the case and sort of make make a claim in that in that front, But there have been, you know, to the banks, to the bank's credit, there have been efforts made to boost representation at sort of all tiers of the firms. There have been efforts to promote more women in managing director classes. There have been also more diversity and inclusion

Is how should we read into the fact that this is happening at City and it's the only big bank that is led by a woman right now, It's a point that you made in this story, but I want you to talk a little bit about that.

I will say that that is a fact there that there are a number of women occupying sort of the upper nearly the uppermost echelons of these banks, but not.

And we just spoke to Hannah Levit earlier who talked about, you know, the JP Morgan who could succeed Jamie Diamond excuse me, yes, and two women are.

On the list there, and that is you know there, that is a fact that Jane Fraser of them among is the only CEO among the biggest of the biggest banks in the world. And there, like I said, there are managing director sewer women, but in terms of the C suite, the Jane is the only one.

Hey, a lot of people are reading this story. Can you talk just a little bit about any of the reaction that you've gotten since it's been published.

Well, I'll say actually the reaction that Artith has received, which she shared with me when when I sat down with her for her interview. She said that she's received dozens of messages from not just women, but men within the firm as well, who have come forward to just kind of express their support for her claims, but also just to say that she is sort of sharing things that they have observed perhaps in the past as well

Well, everybody check out this story. It's among the most read on the Bloomberg Terminal page. Smith is here with us. She is consumer finance reporter at Bloomberg News.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business app, and YouTube. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Well, like I said, it's today's big take. It is one of the most read stories on the Bloomberg terminal. It's about the crisis unfolding in higher education. The pressure that small nonprofit colleges and universities are facing as they bear the brunt of a massive shift in demographics. We're talking falling enrollment, persistent operating losses, and that's led to about ten four year institutions to close or announce plans to.

Close their doors this year.

Fitch Ratings actually predicts twenty to twenty five schools will close each year going forward. That's roughly double the annual average of closures at private, nonprofit four year institutions over the last decade. Well, the team here at Bloomberg News did an exhaustive analysis of one hundred thousand data points from about one thousand US schools. These schools had fewer than five thousand students, and they had some pretty surprising findings.

Sure.

Yeah, So, like you mentioned, I'm a reporter on the municipal finance team and we cover the debt that these schools sell in the bond market. And for a long time we had been hearing investors growing increasingly concerned about this industry. So we wanted to write a story in a very data driven way to understand, you know, how have schools in this world changed over the last ten

Can you talk about some of the examples of the signs of stress. What does it actually look like when a school is under stress? According to Bloomberg's analysis.

Sure, so we wanted to create some metrics that could be uniformly tracked, and we consulted with six different experts to help us kind of create these metrics. And this is what we landed on. So a high acceptance rate, you know, school is accepting on average over eighty percent of its applicants over the last three years on average. And then similarly, a low yield, so you're giving out a lot of offers, but not a lot of students are accepting those offers and coming to campus. A pretty

Nick, what's so interesting about this story is it kind of runs counter to the narrative that I think a lot of people have about higher education in this country, which is that it's becoming increasingly competitive, it's becoming increasingly expensive, and it's harder and harder for you know, people's kids

Sure, the way the experts think about this, and I think a lot of school leadership thinks about this, is there is a massive bifurcation happening in the higher education market. The absolute strongest schools think you know, your name brand schools, your top fifty, those are getting much stronger year after year. They have massive endowments north of tens of billions of dollars, and you know, some schools have issued one hundred year bond. In that category, there's no reason for us to think

What happens when a college closes, Where do the students go? What happens to all the jobs?

It can kind of be case by case. We've written some individual stories about this. One great example is Casanovia College in New York.

I have a friend who went there.

We wrote about them, and the school had some dead out standing, which makes it really complicated. If a school has an endowment, for instance, that can also be complicated. Where does that endowment go? In some cases it has to go all the way up to the state attorney general to decide what to do with the money, because donors gave that an ear marked it for a specific purpose. My understanding was that in Casanovia they were able to

Nick, this story has serious economic implications as well. I remember when I was in school at my small college in central Maine was in a small town, but the economic effect that the school has on the town is just massive. It's one of the biggest employers there, along with the hospital. Students spend a lot of money their parents when they come and visit, stay at the hotels there, and need at the restaurants in the town. What are the economic effects on a surrounding area when a college closes.

It can be quite significant. I think, like you mentioned hospitals and institutions of higher education or what are known as anchor institutions. You know, especially in rural places, they can often be the largest employer. You think about not only losing the faculty, but all the staff, the people who maintain the grounds, and this huge flow of students in their families that's coming to the town every year and spending money. If that goes away, that is a sizeable economic hit to a region.

In your reporting, you spoke to some students who attend colleges that are under stress. What were some takeaways from those conversations.

Sure, I talked to so one of the main schools in our story as a school called Rider University. I interviewed their president and quite a few students and faculty members, and they are definitely facing some stress. They hit about four flags in our study, and some students talked about, you know, this kind of chilling effect that happens on campus.

On and get excited about your school.

Absolutely, Nick, in the last minute that we have with you, talk a little bit about the way the schools responded to the analysis here, and just to you know, emphasize just because the schools on this list or ident you and the team identified it as being under pressure, has no bearing or indication that it will actually close.

Correct.

It's almost impossible to predict a school closure based off of metrics like these. Like I mentioned, a big part of that is because of endowments. If a school has a big endowment, they're going to have a much easier time surviving a period of hardship than a school that doesn't. But we reached out to every school that had three or more flags, and we got a vast array of responses.

Well, it's a really, really powerful piece. I encourage everybody to check it out. There's a reason it's among the most read on the Bloomberg terminal. Nick Corolo part of the team here at Bloomberg News. Who wrote it Municipal Finance and Schools reporter at Bloomberg.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or watch us live on YouTube.

Well before finance professionals began flocking to West Palm Beach, the biggest gift that the city's Cox Science Center and Aquarium ever received was nine hundred thousand dollars in twenty twenty one. It's set out to raise funds for a new building that's expected to cost one hundred and five million dollars. Ken Griffin a name familiar with our audience, the billionaire founder of the Citadel Financial Empire. He moved there to Florida from Chicago last year. He gave eight

Amanda, It is a saying for you give while you live, and give where you live. So what I documented going around Miami, the West coast of Florida, in this West Palm Beach area is that new people come in and they need to make a down payment for being a member of the community, and so they're reaching out. What they find in Florida that's so different from the places they came is that it's easy access.

What do you mean easy access?

Well, Florida is super happy to have people that have a culture of giving, that come from cities that have been built with philanthropy. It's literally, you know, on engraved on the walls of museums and libraries, that strong, strong tradition. And in a younger state that's always had a more transient population and an older population that had done their

Yeah, you quoted somebody in the story, and I'm you know, not going to get the quote exactly right because I don't have it in front of me. But basically who basically said, if you wanted to have the impact that people are having here in Florida, you'd have to in New York, for example, you'd have to take a time machine, go back in time and add a few zeros to.

It, exactly. And it's true that Ken Griffin gave eight million, which seems like a lot compared to nine hundred thousand, but he's given several bigger gifts of twenty five million, and he's probably at over one hundred million so far in Florida. But there is this sense that people talk about it in this way, we can have more of an impact with our giving. There's less clutter, there's less bureaucracy, there's less of a weight to get onto the board.

Say, Florida, and that sounds like you've been watching some of those debates over the last few months. So what are the causes that the Wall Street class are finding in Florida and are they different at all than the causes they supported in Chicago and New York, in San Francisco, for example, for Orlando Bravo for example.

Well, Orlando Bravo is an interesting case. So he didn't really he said to me, he didn't know anyone in Miami when.

He picked it, when he picked it to move there, when he.

Picked it to move there, whereas Ken Griffin had time as a child going through school there. He went to high school in Boca Ratone, So he talked about how people were just so welcoming, and he really envisions Miami as a meeting place for tech and finance, which is kind of what his firm does. So he's taking a program that he knows from San Francisco and has funded

Well, that's what I was going to ask, is you know, and it's kind of a weird way to talk about it, but there is a prestige that comes with having your name on the New York Public Library or having your name adorned some institution that's been around forever that you know, houses the New York Philharmonic or you know, an orchestra here in the city. Is there that same prestige? Are they finding that same prestige in Florida?

That's a good question. There are names on buildings. Adrian Arst gave a gift for the Performing Arts Center in Miami. Philip Frost gave a big gift for the and name the Science center there, George Perez for the museum. I think that, you know, we're all we've all become a little skeptical about what that name gives you, Like, is it a way just to get yourself out there? It is they're more personal gain or is it about setting an example and then having other people aspire to be

And yeah, it seems like there's this idea of accessibility that doesn't necessarily exist in other cities.

Well, they also say that because they're younger, they can experiment in a new way, So we'll be seeing some different models.

It's a really cool story. Check it out. It's Amanda Gordon.

She's Bloomberg Wealth Team reporter here and this is on the Bloomberg terminal, of course, and also at Bloomberg dot com.

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Plenty ahead in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week, including the CEO of publicly traded Secure works on artificial intelligence, along with the set of new data breach reporting rules for public companies. And speaking of AI, we'll hear from the head of a startup called neat Leaf, who's using cutting edge tech to help revolutionize cultivation of cannabis, and so much more, Plus why toy prices are falling dramatically at the most wonderful time

A few years ago.

But there's some serious money going into anti aging startups in the valley, among them retro Biosciences, a startup with one hundred and eighty million dollars from none other than open Ai Sam Altman. The company is a simple and audacious goal, add ten good years to your life. And until now we haven't actually had a glimpse inside of retro bias Sciences, But thanks to Ashley Vance, features writer for Bloomberg BusinessWeek, now we do. Joel Weber is the

But Ashley has just had his pulse. He had his finger on the pulse of Silicon Valley for everything forever. And what we appreciated was that Silicon Valley is obsessed with this puzzle of how do we live longer? How do we live better as we age. There's some very interesting individuals who have novel approaches to that. There's also just like people who have a lot of money and are willing to throw it at the problem and see

Yeah, well, thank you guys for all the kai words. Well, this is retro Bio. Like you guys said, it's funded by Sam Altman. Perhaps you know that name, yes, but you know retro is one. What we point out in the story that I think is particularly interesting in the field of longevity is the science kind of comes and goes that people get excited about. But there's a thing called cellular reprogramming, which which is the current as far as like real longevity science goes. It's it's sort of

What does that actually look like and how much money do you need to do this because there are labs longevity centers who have a lot more money than what Retros actually even though they have a lot of money too.

Yeah, I mean they have one hundred eighty million dollars. They're weird because they're chasing five different types of longevity technology at the same time. You know, the table stakes here appear to be at least one hundred million dollars. There's a company called Alto's Labs that's backed by Jeff Bezos, and.

You're a miller.

They have three billion dollars, and so there's something of a race going on where again, we've for about, you know, fifteen years, maybe even a little more, we've done all these experiments on animals where you essentially take one of their old cells. You can take a skin cell off of a mouse and you can revert that all the way back to a stem cell, kind of that blank slate where all life begins, and then advance it again

Emily, you're gonna have to pick a horse one hundred and eighty million dollars with Sam Altman, three billion dollars with Jeff Bezos. Go, which one do you pick? Oh, Okay, well that was the wrong answer.

But no, I just picked more money, honestly.

Yeah it might be right, it might be right.

Well, who knows, right?

But okay, so this walk us through this partial cell reprogramming Ashley, And what does that actually mean? Because like that's a frame, like the thing about longevity. You start like like getting into the space and all of a sudden there's this whole other world of vocabulary that no one's ever familiar with. So what does that actually mean? And can I do it now?

Yeah?

Okay, I'm gonna nerd out on everyone for a second. But uh, around owned two thousand and six, a Japanese researcher, a doctor named Yamanaka, he discovered that there were these they called them transcription factors. They're basically proteins. They're present in our body. We have between fifteen hundred and two thousand transcription factors in our body that perform various functions.

Tell Us about the founder, Joe bets Lacroix, I think.

I'm saying that, yeah, he's a character and a half. He grew up in Oregon with these kind of like counterculture parents during the sixties. He's got a very unconventional background. He had ad average in high school and then somehow got into Harvard from what he says was a very creative essay and transfer application from a community college and has had his interesting career. He's been a serial entrepreneur

Hey, Ashley, you've done a good portion of reporting this year, and gosh, even last year on folks who are looking into anti aging, folks who are trying to reverse aging, Folks were trying to add good.

Years to life.

Brian Johnson's documenting this on Twitter now quite a bit based on your reporting, and I'm just curious if you think like, within our lifetimes we are actually going to be able to take advantage of this type of technology.

I mean, you know, you look at what Brian's doing. He's basically testing every single substance that's ever been in a paper that's shown some sort of benefit for longevity. And there's interesting things there. There's people doing stuff like autophogy, which is basically calorie restriction, which a lot of people have heard of, where your body seems to repair itself.

That's not good.

If that's not good. If we can figure this out, it's a huge if. But if we can figure this out and all these sciences really think this is like an engineering problem. They think the science is solved. Yes, I think, you know, this is the most encouraged I've been by anything in a long time. And you have you have incredibly smart people and tons of money being thrown at this, and it's our it's our best bet.

Okay.

So what does ten years look like?

Then?

Like, what do I what do I have to do to get ten more years?

Well, you know, I would like I would like twenty I would like twenty six to thirty six.

Okay, you we pick up like that, ash, Yeah, those are the years that I want back.

When you talk to these researchers. The way this is probably if it works, the way this is probably going to play out first is that somebody would come in with with liver disease and you would repair the liver, or you would have heart problems and you would repair the heart, and it would be this kind of like organ by organ base is where you're fixing pretty severe problems. The promise is this more like generalized use of this technology, where you really would repair the entire body and all

Five year old face.

And they will tell you quite point blank that yes, that is kind of the goal that over a period of months, that is what would happen to you.

I mean I cared less about, like I guess, reversing the aging process from a bhysical perspective like looks, and more like feeling like I don't want to be sore anymore. I want to be able to just go on a ski trip and not train for it. Yeah you know what I mean, like things you could do when you were like a lot younger, and that was totally fine.

I can't wait to hear how this plays out for you.

Here's the problem. Here's the problem. I'm not a billionaire. Okay, that's the problem. I have no blood boys. Put the shot right here. I have zero blood boys. Put the right here. Yeah.

Okay, Actually, what what about the competition?

Right?

We mentioned three billion dollars in bezos? Uh, what what's the pro What are the different approaches that you know, kind of round out this field? And Retro's got this way how are other people going to go about solving it?

Yeah, so retros. Retros kind of do it. All these experiments on these these mice. They have tens of thousands of mice. Altos Labs, the company backed by by Bezos and Miller. What they've essentially done is hired the whole world's top academics in this field away from their university positions and given them money and their own laboratories. Have been like, you know, let's see how fast you can run, and if you don't have to, you know, teach and

I mean, you can.

Argue pretty easily that this could be the best business of all time. I'm sort of surprised there's not twenty thirty, forty fifty startups in the space.

Well, there's still time.

And there's also still time to check out this story on the Bloomberg Terminal. It's going to be available in the upcoming new issue of Bloomberg BusinessWeek on newstands later this week, already online at Bloomberg dot com, Slash business Week, and of course on the Bloomberg Terminal. Big thank you two Ashley Vance, he is features writer for Bloomberg business Week, and also big thank you to Joe Weber, the editor of Bloomberg BusinessWeek.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Eastern Listen.

On Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, and the Bloomberg Business App, or watch us live on YouTube.

Well, some public companies are still trying to figure out exactly how to comply with new rules from the US Securities and Exchange Commission requiring speedy disclosure of significant cyber attacks. Those rules, which kicked in Monday, require companies to report cyber incidents within four business days of determining that they are quote material to shareholders. The SEC previously required firms to disclose major events that would be of shareholder interest, but didn't specify cyber events.

Well.

Next guest knows a thing or two about cybersecurity. Wendy Thomas is president and CEO of Secure Works, the cybersecurity company. She's back with us. It's a little different environment than when we last spoke to you just a few months ago. Specifically when it comes to this new SEC requiring ruling

What can you tell us about it?

Sure, glad to share the emerging insights into the new regulations. I think about it in sort of the front end and the back end. On the back end, as you mentioned, public companies now have to report cyber incidents that are determined by the company themselves to be material, which is a discussion in and of itself within four business days,

I want to talk about this just because this one's in the news, but I mean, you could just replace VF Corp. With any given company at any given time. VF Corp. Suffered this cyber attack at pretty much the worst possible time and the most important quarter of the company, and it has hurt orders for Vans, north Face and

They are spending significant amounts of money. But as you can see, the cyber criminal only has to be right once, and we have to be right in and out every day. And that's why it's so important for companies to have a security expert partner to help them prepare for and navigate situations like this to minimize the damage. There's nothing worse for a company than their high season to be

In your opinion, do the regulations go far enough?

The regulations, I think are a good first step in many ways, and I have no doubt we'll continue to see them evolve like many other new forms of rulemaking over the years. But what I will tell you is these regulations are not intended to punish. They are really intended to create the right incentives. Look twenty twenty three. I think it's on track to be the most prolific year for ransomware ever and to have one of the

What, in your opinion is the right amount of money for a company to actually spend on keeping their company secure from cyber attacks question? But not a single figure, not a single figure, but a certain like a portion of repid for example, or portion of expenses.

That does vary a bit, and I'm glad to provide some ranges there. It does vary a bit depending on whether the organization is in a highly attacked and frankly, highly regulated industry.

Eating like a healthcare or financial services for example.

Exactly, they have a much higher standard. Now what we see is damages to companies that are more in the manufacturing in the retail space. So it does matter from a business up time and financial performance perspective, But generally we expect to see companies spending somewhere in the four

You see that portion moving up?

I do see that portion moving up, but I also see it moving in terms of mix. So while you want to invest in preventing as much as you possibly can, what these regulations are showing is that you have to invest in you aren't able to prevent everything. So you absolutely have to be able to detect quickly. Because with these regulations, the ability to assess the impact of an incident in terms of what it's going to do to your business operations and the financial outcomes of that. You

Wendy, We've talked a lot about AI in the context of making companies more productive and being able to.

Be more efficient.

We've talked about it too in the concept of people being worried about AI, sort of like the way that Elon musks concerned about AGI. I'm wondering how you've seen or how you could see threat actors use AI to pose as humans to actually gain access to networks. What's worst case scenario here that you guys are thinking about over its secure works.

Sure, as we've talked about before, the power in the peril of AI is very real for cybersecurity, and so while the power of it to be able to detect certain behavioral techniques of the adversary are incredibly important for how we operate as secure works, we also see the adversary taking advantage of these tools and techniques as well.

Yeah, one hard thing is you mean you have to remain sovid vigilant regardless of who's you know in your organization, from person with access to certain systems versus the person whose password or login credentials could be compromised. Wendy, we love it when you join us. Wendy Thomas is President and chief executive officer of Secure Works. Back with us on a zoom from Atlanta, Georgia.

You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from three to six Easter on Bloomberg Radio, the Bloomberg Business App, and you can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station, Just say Alexa play Bloomberg eleven thirty.

Well.

Here on Bloomberg Business Week, we talk a lot about feeding the world and what that takes and how so many different people from all over are trying to tackle the problem of food insecurity. From plant based meats and proteins to increasing the sustainability and efficiency of crops. One person trying to do that is Almar Meyer, the co founder and CEO of Neatly.

If it's a.

Company that says it's using robotics and AI to transform farming. Almar Meyer joins us on zoom from Santa Cruz, California. It's good to have you on Bloomberg Business Week. Almar explain what exactly neat Leaf is because when I hear platform, I think of software. I think of something that can be that's like virtual, that's moved from place to place. How do you apply that to farming.

What they basically do is there basically are extensive data collection tool for cultivators. One thing which we have realized is that cultivation is far from optimal. There's like ten to fifteen even twenty percent crop loss every citele depending on the crop. But it really is something which is not optimized and that it's basically a lack of data collection.

I'm curious specifically for cannabis cultivation, how exactly does the platform help cannabis forming.

Right, So it's a crop stick system. So we are currently like starting with cannabis, but we're also talking to leafy greens, ornamentals, nurseries and any other crop which is cultivated in indoors in caa controlled environment and your culture facilities. So for cannabis, we basically capture all these environmental factors throughout this environment to provide a consistent understanding of the microclimates, how the environment changes throughout the day, throughout the night,

But we do know that it's not just for cannabis, and I know that you're focused on cannabis right now, but you can apply this to any indoor farming right totally.

Though it's not limited to cannabis at all. It's crop agnostic as it's that and the whole idea is really like if any any technology development, you start with the highest marching crop first.

And that's cannabis right now, and that's kind of it.

Yeah, cannabis has the highest margins right now. It's like Tesla also started with the roads turning up with the models free and you develop your technology and you make it more applicable for like crops with smaller margins, and it's totally possible. Like this cable based technology, it really leans itself to like a large application in large cultivation environments, like a large base of crow Why can't you.

Do this extravers Why can't this Why is this only for indoor farming right now?

That's a really good question. So as we capture this data, we captured the understanding how to optimize these environments. Now indoors, in controlled environment ariculture environments, you can control these barometers. You can actually leverage all this knowledge put it to the best use. However, it's not limited, Like you can imagine putting like four poles outside of a vineyard and operate the same system outdoors and capture the same information.

How does AI work here, Because this is a huge buzzword of twenty twenty three, artificial intelligence. It seems like every business in every industry is saying that they're leveraging AI to increase their scale or increase their efficiency. So can you talk a little bit more exactly about the artificial intelligence aspect totally.

Yeah, it's a huge So cultivation is a huge black box. My background is not cultivation or blend science, but like learning about it space. I got so much respect for cultivators who have to navigate all these different barometers and factors which are correlated.

You know, you have to change.

If you change one barameter, you have to change all the other barometers as well, And that's really the challenge there. And that's where we have seen that the I and machine learning really how performs human and captures these correlations, understands them and knows how to optimize the space to

I'm wondering how if you can give us some numbers that show how much it increases yield, how much it increases efficiency. If people people who use the platform, growers who use the platform, what are the results that they get?

So we are still trying to capture our solid baseline around like what these numbers are. We have seen runs where we perform ten percent better, runs very from twenty percent better, even like one run very well, like seventy

Obviously that's not possible.

Our system can keep an eye on each blend, basically on each leave multiple times a day, like constantly and basically capture what happens, what that it changes, and pick them up as early as possible before you can potentially even see them. We're using technology which goes beyond the human eye, and that's obviously a huge win. Now, the really the reason why the baseline is challenging is it's hard to say, like, what would have happened if you

So you co found a neatleaf in twenty twenty. What drew you to this space indoor farming? Because I know that you worked at Lucid Motors the Moonshot factory. Why pivot to farming?

That's a really good question. I originally come from the countries like the Delian Alps, and I spent my summers on my aunt's farm, so I have like some emotional ties to cultivation, and then I live here and I send them cruise for many many years, and I started talking to cultivators, and everyone kept talking about data driven cultivation and that's the new agricultural revolution. We have to change,

It's really really cool stuff and we really appreciate you taking the time in joining us this afternoon. That's Elmer Meyer joining us on Zoom from Santa Cruz, California, the co founder and CEO of Neatly, the company that uses robotics and AI to help farmers.

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Well, Bailey, something weird is happening to toy prices. They're actually falling this holiday season. I don't know if you saw this story from Bloomberg News yesterday.

Did you see this?

I saw it, but I'm not buying toys.

Are you buying toys? Yeah? Yeah, you know, Santa Claus has got to go shopping somewhere.

Okay, reported yesterday Bloomberg News here reporting yesterday the toy makers are actually slashing prices, with toy promotions during the holiday season expected to peak at thirty five percent. Okay, that's just toys. It's certainly a unique retail segment and one that saw a huge shift during the pandemic. So what about other types of retail? Well, we've got a great guest to talk all things retail as we do get through the holiday season. Nicole Larson is National Research

Nicole, how are you good?

How are you guys?

I'm excited to talk all things retail.

Yeah, well, what are you seeing right now? I mean, you guys have incredible real time data that shows who's shopping where, who's eating where, and who's spending money where.

What does the environment look like?

I mean, first of all, let's start off with the holiday shopping season has really been off to a great start. I mean, obviously, consumers are remaining pretty cautious and selective about what they're buying. They're focusing, they're purchasing power more on their needs rather than they're once. They're not buying on impulse, and they're really not splurging on products that don't wow them. So we actually saw nearly sixty percent of consumers said that they bought less on Impulse this

Well, Nicole. One thing that has definitely been top of mine for me has been this kind of rush of buy now, pay later.

I thought you were gonna say buying toys.

I know I don't have you know, I don't know, and to buy toys, I don't have anyone to buy toys for.

So buy toys for my kids.

Yeah, exactly. You know it'll be a Christmas surprise.

Sounds a Christmas miracle.

A Christmas miracle brought to you by Bailey Lipschiltz, Nicole. So we saw a firm with a partnership with Walmart to drive for their volume. How does buy now pay later play into the retail landscape.

So we actually took a survey.

We found one in five consumers planned to heavily leverage the buy now, pay later program payment plans during the holiday season. I think really too spreading out the holidays spend so you know how we actually or Amazon had the deal days Target best by Walmart. I think really stretching out their spending period has also really helped consumers get them to open their wallets. I mean, we're already

So I think that's going.

To be a trend not only just with Christmas and Black Friday spend, but you're going to see it with other holidays too. In order to get those consumers to spend, you know, start selling the products a little bit.

Earlier than usual.

Does that I mean, Bailey, I don't know about you, but that Walmart firm news yesterday that sent news of that sent shares of a firm up double digits. That really got me thinking, Wait a second, Nicole, is it the best thing? If consumers are at Walmart paying for Walmart purchases over time, what's lad does that tell about the American consumer?

I mean, one trend we're looking at for twenty twenty four is that our consumers are going to be a lot more considerate in their perching habits.

I definitely don't think.

Retail spend is going to increase by very much next year. If anything, it's going to remain either the same it was this year or maybe a few basis points higher. But really there's going to be a big stabilization, as I mentioned, because consumers are just being a little bit more picky.

I mean, we have so much information out there.

If we do want to buy a TV or some sort of appliance, We're not just going to one retailer to look and click and automatically buy.

We're looking at all platforms.

We're going in store, We're going in line really to do our due diligence on where is the best price available.

Well, Nicole, again with your portfolio of storefronts and malls, how much of this foot track is foot traffic is actually delivering sales? Because you mentioned that if I walk into a store and see that there's a TV that I want, I immediately google it and see what kind of price I can get elsewhere that'll probably have free shipping.

Yeah, so surprisingly, you know, I think the pandemic definitely, you know, surged online sales that went up very quickly, a lot faster than we probably expected for that to come up over the next few years.

But despite all of this e.

Commerce growth, brick and mortar stores really remains the preferred shopping center or the preferred shopping experience, I should say by consumers. We work with a lot of retailers, and a lot of them have already really perfected their online and omni channel strategy, so now they're actually looking to really perfect and right size their physical storefront. Maybe get that store size right, maybe experience with experiment with new formats.

That's so interesting to hear because it feels like to me physical apart from groceries, and even groceries like physical stores are like a last resort for me. There for when I want to try on a pair of shoes or try on something but I don't know what, Nicole, I don't want to be bothered to leave, you know.

My house.

Well, we even buy I feel like we buy stuff. My fiance buy stuff to try it on and if she doesn't.

Send it send it back, which is just cost terrible.

Yeah, and it's also bad for the bad for the environment.

But I mean, Nicole, how does that gel with what you're seeing at Colliers.

Yeah, I mean or the foot traffic definitely shows that foot traffic is up, and it's really for these desired centers. I mean, you're starting to see a lot higher foot traffic in strip centers where they're closer to the suburbs. Like you mentioned, you don't want to drive far to

I do also think that it has to do with the experiences that these retail spaces are increasingly offering. Right, It's not just you know, it's the stuff that you can't do online, and you know, it's like the Lego Lands or you know what Mattel's trying to do with like Pepa pig World, and these experiences and stuff just in the last thirty seconds that we have, Betina Cole, is that something we're going to see more of?

Yeah, definitely. I mean landlords should definitely try to monetize their space as much as they can. There's so much they can do with these events, any sort of experiences like you're mentioning, We're also seeing retailers do that, you know, even if they have a store in a location already, adding some sort of pop up at the other side of the mall. So maybe if your consumer doesn't go to your side of the mall, maybe the ones who do go to the other side of the mall can

Nicole Larson, national research manager for retail Services at Callers, joining us on Zoom from Fort Lauderdale, Florida, Bailey, are you done with all holiday shopping?

I'm done?

Well.

I was going to say, you're thinking about Lego land and Peppa Pake. I just got a new smoker for Christmas, Bok, So different stages of.

All, right, So fourth of July we're coming over.

I'll be over there in January two.

Oh wow, that sounds good. Hey, you're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.

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