Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend-December 20, 2020

This was all on our mind with our conversations this week, including one with Dr Stephen Corwin, President CEO of New York Presbyterian Hospital, who was at the center of New York's coronavirus crisis last spring. He provided some perspective on today's cases. We'll also hear from the Carlisle Group David Rubinstein on his conversations with Jeff Bezos, Ruth Bader, Ginsburg, Oprah and more. It's all in his book How to Lead. Also, speaking of books, how about the best business books of

Here's a hint, they're not all business books. We start, though, with this week's cover story about the urban exodus. That's happening as a result of working from home, and how the pandemic migration could reshape the American economy. For more, Bloomberg Quicktake anchor Tim Stanovic and I talked with Noah bu Hire, finance reporter at Bloomberg News and Bloomberg Business

Week editor Jill Weber. We've been watching this trend um just evolved throughout the pandemic, and and it started with people, you know, basically the urban exodus, people leaving cities and going to the suburbs or or the country. And then instead of renting some of those places, people started buying and and then you know, the employers started to catch up with with it eventually, and that's really kind of

the new element. And I think the one that that really distinguishes Noah's story has been, you know, the shift was at first it was just the real estate implications, but now it's about the pay implications. And Noah's reporting actually centers on a store, on a company, Red Fend, the real estate company, and they actually almost become the vehicle for the story. So no tell us about this trend and what we've learned through Red Sin. Yeah, Well,

I think you really, you really captured it. I mean, this is uh, this is a trend in HR policy right now. We've we've we've had this massive experiment in working from home, and I think a lot of companies have found that it works for people. Um. It's not perfect. There are for sure some drawbacks. UM, but as as we've gone through the months, companies, I think, responding to what they're hearing from their workforces, have realized that they can allow for a much greater uh amount of remote

work um when the pandemic is finally over. And that's forced them to really reckon with uh policies and how how you how you actually make this work in a

way that's that's fairer and reasonable for your business. And um, really it's just opened up a giant can of worms because, uh, you know, the cost of labor and the cost of living just vary so radically across the US that, um, you could create situations where you know, if someone moved from the Bay Area to Phoenix or Atlanta, they um, and they carried their salary with them, they just um, you create a situation where um, you were paying way

above market essentially. Okay, So the red fin thing that's so interesting though, is that once people sort of moved out, uh, and the company had to grapple with us. And they were actually proactive I think and having a plan basically, um. And they basically realized that in order to implement this, they needed to have some version of like a localized pay policy. Right. So so tell us about how they

actually went about implementing that. Yeah, so on some levels, like companies have been doing this for years, right, it's just um uh, like they thought about, well, if we open a new office in a new city, what do we pay people. What's interesting is that that red Fin and I think a lot of other companies you know, had to do this on a mass scale. So what Redfin did is they got a bunch of data on cost of labor and cost of living. Um. Their their

real estate company. They're in the home brokerage business, so

they're they're pretty attuned to this stuff. And I have a lot of in house data, but they got external data as well, um to try and craft a policy of what's fair and and and you know, the data informed their decisions, but there were a lot of judgment calls at the end of the day, and you know, they're still tweaking and trying to make sure, um, you know, their policy works for their people and that they can continue to recruit and retain the best people because at

the end of the day, that's that's really what this is about for for companies is you know, there's even with unemployment where it is today, there for certain kinds of jobs, they're still and insatiable appetite um and demand for people and um, you know, as companies compete for talent, they want to make sure they're paying the right amount in the markets where those people want to be. No, there's there's something you explore in the piece, the economic

implications of this. The idea that people are leaving higher cost areas moving to areas than aren't is expensive. And with that, of course, if they're leaving a city or a state, with them goes tax base, with them, goes spending in that local economy. What are the long term

implications of this migration? Well, I don't think we know, ye is the short and short non answer, but um, it certainly doesn't seem like it's going to be helpful for high cost places like New York and San Francisco as they you know, as the whole country tries to uh dig itself out of of of the economic implications

of the pandemic. I mean, it's not helpful when you have high earners leave your city, but at the same by, you know, at the same time, like, we just don't know that at this point how extensive this is going to be. And and there are some real benefits to um living in being near where the action is, where there are other people in your industry, and um, you know, that could be a draw for people to come back

to some of these high cost places. And that was our cover story this week in the magazine that was No Blue Higher Finance reporter at Bloomberg News along with Bloomberg Business. We get to Joe Weber joining Bloomberg Cricket Take anchor Tim Stenovik and me working from home Man, that is something we have talked so much about this year because of the pandemic. And coming up in the next hour, keep in mind we're going to hear more about working from home. It's impact on our lives and

our brains. Microsoft is keeping track of that. First up though straight ahead, we're seeing a significant increase in COVID cases. Another very tough week for the nation. Because of the virus. The CEO of New York Presbyterian, home to New York's first confirmed COVID case last spring, share some perspective on today. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Garrol Mazer from Bloomberg Radio. This week was another tough one

in the battle against the coronavirus. We saw the first hiccups in the distribution of a COVID nineteen vaccine in the US. The headlines were equally difficult globally. With that in mind, Bloomberg Quick Takes, Tim Stanovic and I caught up with Dr Stephen Corwin, president CEO of New York Presbyterian Hospital, who The New York Times called in the spring, the CEO at the center of New York's coronavirus crisis. The first confirmed case in the New York area was

in one of New York Presbyterians hospitals last spring. Dr Corwyn began, though, with what today looks like, we're seeing a significant increase in COVID cases. Word about of what our peak was in in the April time frame, and we expected quickly to go to the thirty range by Christmas time, if not a little bit after, so we're seeing a significant uptick. The good news is uh at people are less sick with the virus as we see it. During April, we had a mortality rate in the hospital

of about extraordinary. Now it's down to about five, which is still horrific, especially if it's your loved one, but but much less than than April. So I would say we've got a rough four to six weeks ahead of us. Uh. But um, I think that we'll get through it, especially as we start vaccinating people quick follow. Um. Do you anticipate that we're going to get back to those levels in terms of hospitalizations um and cases um where we are there, but in terms of hospitalizations that we saw

back in the spring, we hope not. Um. You know, we're clearly mindful of that. Our modeling would show that we would peak in the in the middle of January unless we have a really terrible Christmas season in terms of people traveling and avoiding, social distancing and man sking. We still haven't seen the full peak of of what happened in Thanksgiving, so that that really is a variable that that that relates to this directly. So uh, certainly no one wants to go back to where the city

was in April, and we certainly don't. And so again until we get mass vaccination, masking, social distancing, washing your hands, all the things you keep hearing about become really critical. And I empathize with our elected officials in terms of how much of a lockdown do you need to have versus not? I think a lot of it depends on how much virus is circulating. Dr Corwin. Why is the

mortality rate gone down so much? Is it because of what we've learned, what you've learned since March, since April? Is it because the hospital is not strained in the same way as it because of therapeutics? Um? I think first the answer to your question is I really don't know. To be honest with you, I do think that we serve We know how to take care of the patients better. Um ramdzevie steroids. They may not be game changers, but

but we know how to use these drugs. UM with the masking and social distancing, are people getting less of a viral load when they get sick. We've certainly seen a shift to a younger demographic who tends to be less sick with the virus um and to your point. Any system over that gets overwhelmed, it becomes more difficult to save lives. So the ability to not get the hospital overwhelmed I think plays into it as well. So all of the above, but it's gonna take us a

while to swear it through. This virus becoming less virulent, we don't see that, but that's that's gonna take time for us to figure out. One thing that you just said really struck me. People wearing masks that you get less of a viral load. I haven't heard that before.

What does that mean? Well, remember, UH, you know, UH masks aren't totally affect active, but it helps to it helps to filter out particles, and so we use the N ninety five masks when we're caring for patients UH, and that clearly prevents UH inhalation of the virus particles. So wearing a surgical mask not only protects UH the person that you would be breathing on, but also helps

to protect you. And if you get less of a viral load, you may have a milder milder infection that if somebody gave you a full viral load, which is clearly what we saw in the beginning of the pandemic. Hey, what do you make Dr Corrin? A new mutation of COVID nineteen turned up and I guess more than a thousand infected patients in the UK and was being blamed for more rapid spread of the contagion. Does that make

you a little nervous? It does? I mean I think that this We know that the virus has many, many mutations. I mean this is not the first one. Uh. When people went on holiday this summer, they came back with a variation from Spain which appeared to be more virulent and cause wider spread. So this is not surprising. Viruses,

like anything else, mutate over time. The fortunate aspect for US VISA via the vaccine is the spike protein is the key in terms of inducing immunogenicity, and so knowing the spike protein UM and and developing the mRNA towards the spike protein. I think we're in pretty good shape regardless of the variations now in terms of making sure that that the vaccination will be very effective, right, because that's what I've heard, that the current vaccines um still

will work on these mutations. Is that correct? That's correct as far as I know, Yes, that's correct, and I think that because the spike protein has not changed, so it's not as it's the mutation profile is not what we see in influenza uh. And I think that that's encouraging. And we're very bullish on the m RNA platform and the vaccine. So Dr corn I want to ask you when you're interview at the time, when you were interviewing The Times back in May, you noted that our assumptions

around pandemic preparations were flawed. Are there assumptions we are making right now about this wave of the COVID breakout, this other wave, another wave, and about the distribution of the vaccine and the impact that will have. Might some of those assumptions be flawed as well? We grossly underestimated pre pandemic the amount of protective equipment equipment we would need. For personnel protective equipment. We have over ninety days of supply for every major category of that. We had issues

in terms of do we have an A ventilators? We clearly don't have that issue. Now we know how to create extra I see you beds, and we know how to create staffing models that that protect our patients. So from that standpoint, we're much better off. Where I think that we can make a mistake as a country is to assume that the vaccines here, we can let down

our guard. Let's go back to business as usual. It's going to take a while for us to get to hurt immunity, and so we've got to do two things simultaneously, be really stringent about the guidelines and and separating ourselves from each other as tough as that maybe um, and let people get vaccinated and educate the population on the vaccine. We have a lot of the population is skeptical of the vaccine. Are populations of color who've been experimented upon

in the past, their skeptical of the vaccine. So we've really got to educate the population as to the safety and the efficacy of the vaccine. That skepticism is what worries some about our ability to reach her immunity when it comes to the virus. That was Dr Stephen Corwin, Presidency of New York Presbyterian Hospital, joining Bloomberg Quick Take anchor Tim Stanovic and me. You're listening to Bloomberg Business

Week coming up. The pandemic didn't come with a playbook, and yet leaders this year drew on many great books to find their way. That's next in our Pursuits guide to the Best business books. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Mazer from Bloomberg Radio. This week was another tough one in the battle against the coronavirus. We saw the first hiccups in the distribution of a COVID nineteen vaccine in the US. The headlines were equally

difficult globally. With that in mind, Bloomberg Quick Takes, Tim Stanovic and I caught up with Dr Stephen Corwin, president CEO of New York Presbyterian Hospital, who The New York Times called in the spring the CEO at the center of New York's coronavirus crisis. The first confirmed case in the New York area was in one of New York Presbyterians hospitals last spring. Dr Corwyn began though with what today looks like we're seeing a significant increase in COVID cases.

Worried about of what our peak was in in the April time frame, and we expected quickly to go to the thirty range by Christmas time, if not a little bit after. So we're seeing a significant uptick The good news is that people are less sick with the virus as we see it. During April, we had a mortality rate in the hospital of about extraordinary. Now it's down to about five, which is still horrific, especially if it's your loved one, but but much less than than April.

So I would say we've got a rough four to six weeks ahead of us. Uh. But UM, I think that we'll get through it, especially as we start vaccinating people quick follow. Um. Do you anticipate that we're going to get back to those levels in terms of hospitalizations um and cases um what we are there, but in terms of hospitalizations that we saw back in the spring, we hope not. Um. You know, we're clearly mindful of that.

Our modeling would show that we would peak in the in the middle of January unless we have a really terrible Christmas season in terms of people traveling and avoiding, social distancing and masking, we still haven't seen the full peak of of what happened and Thanksgiving, so that that really is a variable that that that relates to this directly. So UM, certainly no one wants to go back to where the city was in April, and we certainly don't.

And so again, until we get mass vaccination, masking, social distancing, washing your hands, all the things you keep hearing about become really critical. And I empathize with our elected officials in terms of how much of a lockdown do you need to have versus not? I think a lot of it depends on how much virus is circulating. Dr Corwin. Why is the mortality rate gone down so much? Is it because of what we've learned, what you've learned since March,

since April? Is it because the hospital is not strained in the same way as it because of therapeutics? Um? I think first the answer to your question is, I really don't know. To be honest with you, I do think that we certainly know how to take care of the patients better, um remdzevie, steroids. They may not be game changers, but but we know how to use these drugs. UM with the masking and social distancing, are people getting

less of a viral load when they get sick. We've certainly seen a shift to a younger demographic who tends to be less sick with the virus. UM And to your point, any system over that gets overwhelmed, it becomes more difficult to save lives. So the ability to not get the hospital overwhelmed I think plays into it as well. So all of the above, but it's gonna take us a while to swear through this virus becoming less virulent. We don't see that, but that's that's gonna take time

for us to figure out. One thing that you just said really struck me. People wearing masks that you get less of a viral load. I haven't heard that before. What does that mean? Well, remember, you know, UH masks aren't totally effective, but it helps to It helps to filter out particles, and so we use the N ninety five masks when we're caring for patients UH, and that

clearly prevents UH inhalation of the virus particles. So wearing a surgical mask not only protects UH the person that you would be breathing on, but also helps to protect you. And if you get less of a viral load, you may have a milder, milder infection that if somebody gave you a full viral load, which is clearly what we

saw in the beginning of the pandemic. Hey, what do you make Dr Corrin a new mutation of COVID nineteen turned up and I guess more than a thousand infected patients in the UK and was being blamed for more rapid spread of the contagion. Does that make you a little nervous? It does? I mean I think that this We know that the virus has many, many mutations. I

mean this is not the first one. Uh. When people went on holiday this summer, they came back with a variation from Spain which appeared to be more virulent and caused wider spread. So this is not surprising. Viruses, like

anything else, mutate over time. The fortunate aspect for US VISA via the vaccine is the spike protein is the key in terms of inducing immunogenicity, and so knowing the spike protein UM and and developing the mRNA towards the spike protein, I think we're in pretty good shape regardless of the variations now in terms of making sure that that the vaccination will be very effective, right, because that's what I've heard that the current vaccines um still will

work on these mutations. Is that correct? That's correct as far as I know, Yes, that's correct. And I think that because the spike protein has not changed, So it's not as it's the mutation profile is not what we see in influenza uh. And I think that that's encouraging, and we're very bullish on the m RNA platform and the vaccine. So Dr corn, I want to ask you when you're interviewing the Time. When you were interviewing The Times back in May, you noted that our assumptions around

pandemic preparations were flawed. Are there assumptions we are making right now about this wave of the COVID breakout, this other wave, another wave, and about the distribution of the vaccine and the impact that will have. Might some of those assumptions be flawed as well? We grossly underestimated pre pandemic the amount of protective equipment equipment we would need for personnel protective equipment. We have over ninety days of supply for every major category of that. We had issues

in terms of do we have an ventilators? We clearly don't have that issue. Now we know how to create extra I see you beds, and we know how to create staffing models that that protect our patients. So from that standpoint, we're much better off where I think that we can make a mistake as a country is to assume that the vaccines here, we can let down our

guard and let's go back to business as usual. It's going to take a while for us to get to hurt immunity, and so we've got to do two things simultaneously. Be really stringent about the guidelines and separating ourselves from each other as tough as that maybe um, and let people get vaccinated and educate the population on the vaccine. We have a lot of the population is skeptical of the vaccine. Are populations of color who've been experimented upon

in the past, their skeptical of the vaccine. So we've really got to educate the population as to the safety and the efficacy of the vaccine. That skepticism is what worries some about our ability to reach her immunity when it comes to the virus. That was Dr Stephen Corwin, Presidency of New York Presbyterian Hospital. Joining Bloomberg Quicktake anchor Tim Stanovic, m me, you're listening to Bloomberg Business Week

coming up. The pandemic didn't come with a playbook, and yet leaders this year drew on many great books to find their way. That's next in our Pursuits guide to the best business books of This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Mazer from Bloomberg Radio. In our next half hour, we're going to double down on books, hearing from the Carlisle Groups, David Rubinstein on his new book, and talking to everyone from Bill Gates and Jeff Bezos

to Oprah and Yo Yo Ma. In keeping with that, Business Week's Pursuits team put together list of the best business books this year, and what they ultimately found is that some of the best weren't technically business books nor published this year, which just makes this list even that more interesting. Bloomberg Pursuits Deputy editor James Gaddy was behind it all and he began with how putting it together

involves tapping all corners of our Bloomberg team. And we have the luxury, honestly, of having people all over the world who have contact and resources to talk to some of the thought business leaders all over the world. And so we reach out to our reporters and bureaus and Europe and Asia, obviously here in New York and h they come back with the list. We had fifty two this year actually, and as you mentioned. Uh. Not a lot of them were business books as you normally think

about it, or even from this year. You know, one of the books that came up with the Great Influenza from way back Ancient History two four written by John Barry, but of course very relevant today in history of pandemics. I have to say I bought that book this year, and partly I think it was also came up on Bill Gates list of like the five books you have to read, and that was one of them too, so uh and several people actual he for he's been a guest on our show, the managing director of a travago

that came up on his list. Yeah. You know. One of the interesting things was the common thread that kind of ran through these selections were people trying to find historical analogies to this, you know, to this various prices

going on today. And you know, you had people like Jonathan Gray, president chief operating officer for Blackstone Group, and uh, into the ninety blitz, the Splendid and the Vial, which you know he described as uh, you know, looking at Winston Churchill and how he retained this relentless optimism in the face of such insurmountable odds allot it a powerful

lesson for today's challenges. So that was interesting. You know, we had Roger Ferguson, also President and CEO of t I A A who looked to a biography of James A. Baker the third called the man who ran Washington. And you know, he said, it's not a timecare not too long ago, but you know you can still see these sort of hyper parers and politics, the feeds of those

things being planted during this period. You had, let's see, it's interesting right to see where leaders go, right, I mean at times of crisis, Like it's not just like okay, let me get the leadership one oh one book, especially in a year write James that where people said, wait a minute, there is no playbook on this. So it is fascinating to see where they went. Yeah, we reached out to America goes in the gallaries who art Galaris

and uh. He went back and looked at Hollywood. Uh and uh a history of this year that came out called a big goodbye goodbye and called Chinatown in the last year as of Hollywood. And he said, you know, people who work in the business of art like he does Uh, Robert Evans producers that movie. Uh, he found new meaning in this quote that he had, which was always to just bet on talent. And so some you know, you have people going back to these uh time periods,

which uh. And then one other example was Sam Cobb's CEO Tipping Point Community. He went to a piece of historical fiction called The Cold Millions by Jeff Walters, which was very popular books this year. Uh. And it goes and looks at the early twentieth century, a little known free speech battle between union organizers and the leaders in

Washington State. So yeah, they're they're kind of you know, the time periods were very different, The protagonists in these books are very very different, and it just kind of shows how people are looking for what we found was at least analogous moment. I love like someone like Danielle Blue. I mean, this has been just a devastating year for

anyone in the restaurant industry. And the book that he's reading Dirt Adventures in Leon as a chef in training father and Sleeth looking for the secret of French cooking. But it's just funny to see where, you know, like people go Yeah, right, that was really interesting when he said, you know, it's a real guts for Bill Buford to go in there and do that, and he knows from

first experience. Yeah exactly, I bet right. Yeah. Yeah. You know, we did have a few uh, you know, typical sort of business books which you know we should call out because, um, you know, in the year that everyone bench watched Netflix. You know, Mark Randolph, the uh, one of the founders of Netflix, wrote a book called that Will Never Work. The Birth of Netflix from the Amazing Life of an Idea. Well, whoever said that was obviously wrong. Thing that I guess

shouldn't surprise me. Um, I guess, Uh, this was more about me, I guess. But there were a lot of female empowerment books that came up that uh, really interesting. Untamed Glennon Doyle's No More was also a bestseller this year. I was mentioned by I Believe for different People and one of our people, Mary Max from A Little Spargo called it an authentic and empowering kick in the tail.

So that which that should just be blur cover. I'm definitely all in when it comes to female empowerment and books on that subject, just saying well, it was great to catch up with Bloomberg Pursuits Deputy editor James Gaddy. Check out that list on the best books business books of It's online in the magazine and on the Bloomberg Terminal. From the best business books of some of the best known names in the world on how to lead. It's all in a book by the Carlisle Groups David Rubinstein.

He's coming up next. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week and this is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Gerrol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. Safe to say, we didn't have a playbook on how to get through the global pandemic, and now we just made thanks to a book out by David Rubinstein. He's the co founder and co executive chairman of the private equity firm the Carlisle Group. David is also host of peer to peer conversations on Bloomberg

Radio and Bloomberg TV. His new book, it's entitled How to Lead. Wisdom from the World's greatest CEOs, founders and game Changers. He talked about the book and more with Bloomberg Quick Takes, Tim Stenevik and me. We started though with how his interest in leadership, how it all began and I was little. I was always interested in learning how other people became prominent and famous, and I used to read about him, and I guess I couldn't stop

asking people questions. So my mother would say, you know, be polite, don't ask people so many questions. But I wasn't able to resist. So dozens of leaders you spoke to for this Dr Anthony Fauci, Oprah, Jeff Bezos, Marilyn Howson, um. Is there a common thread that runs through all of their journeys that you took away from the conversations. Sure, all of them came from I would say middle class, lower middle class or blue collar families. None of them

were really extremely wealthy. They work their way up. They came from a situation where they typically had some failures earlier in their career. They all tended to have a vision, They were very persistent, they knew they wanted to get something done, They were willing to share the credit with people, highly honest and a lot of integrity, and they rose up in case in situations where there's a lot of crisis.

You could say the word's great leaders overcome crises, And many of them overcame crisis and really show their leadership skills during those crisis. So, David, I wonder, if you're not a leader as a kid, or as a teenager or at college, does that necessarily mean you won't be a leader later in life? I mean, do you do you have to start showing some trades basically early on. I wondered if that was also a commonality between some of the folks you've talked to. Most of them were

not leaders when they were very young. In fact, if you take a look at the last let's say a dozen presidents the United States, maybe only Bill Clinton would be somebody who would have been said, as a young person, this person could be President United States. And the same as true in other areas. I certainly was not a great leader when I was younger, and many people were not famous when they were young for being Rhodes scholars

or Supreme Court clerks or Heisman Trophy winners. People who become great leaders later in life basically have a tortoise and hair approach. They've worked their way up, they learned some skills, and ultimately luck helps them get get forward. But if you think of your thank your own high school class, whoever the seat that the senior leader was the student body president. What happened to that person? You know, sometimes you know you don't know because they didn't become famous.

I often thought the people in my high school class were going to be conquering the world, and then I've never heard it from some of them. Again, Yeah, mine is a pulmonologist in California. He's doing well. Yeah, he's doing okay, he's busy during the COVID pandemic. But um, David, it struck me that you said that this common theme is that people came from this middle class background. I'm wondering. We talked a lot about this idea of a k shape recovery. The middle class has gotten smaller in the

United States. Do you think it's still possible for people to work their way up? The American dream? I think still lives on. But there's no doubt there's an underclass in our country now that, for racial or other reasons, has fallen further and further behind. And I think COVID is going to bring them even further and further behind, because if you don't have technology in the in the COVID era, you're just you're just not able to really survive.

So think about all the families that don't have high speed internet at home, or cancer ford to have child care for their children, or can't afford to sound the schools right now. So that's a sad situation. So I do think that the American dream is becoming more elusive for many, many people in this country. But there are, obviously are people who still believe in the American dream and come from reasonable backgrounds and can work their way up.

And obviously some people from the worst backgrounds can work their way up, but the odds are harder and harder. Well, when you look at the kind of bigger picture, David, in terms of our economy in the future of it, and you watch what's going on in other nations like China, who's definitely on a mission to certainly develop some more

sophisticated industries and certainly develop their domestic economy. Do we need to figure out some new policies and what might those policies be so that the American dream is not more elusive and that it is available to more and more Americans, especially at the lower socioeconomic scale. There's no doubt that our creative activity in this country is the envy of the world. Silicon Valley and all the kind of technologies that have been developed there are the envy

of the world. But we don't have a population base that China does, and it's China becomes more and more capitalistic. I think it's actually gonna by pay us us in size. In terms of economy, the United States will probably be in our lifetime the second largest economy world, not the largest. But you can still rise up and have a very great life in the second largest economy in the world.

But we should recognize that China will be a competitor increasingly in the in the economic world, and it's going to be difficult for some of us to accept that fact, but it's a reality. If we had one new policy that the incoming Biden administration would put into fact, let's say in their first year, that would help some of those Americans that have been left behind. What would you what do you think it should be? No member of Congress can get their pay unless we pass bipartisan legislation.

UH that addresses some of the problems. Obviously that's tongue in cheque, but clearly I actually like it. I'm just gonna put it here here, But anyway, go ahead, so I think obviously that the country doesn't work as well as we would like it to work. And we haven't seen bipartisan legislation for a long long time, and we have apparel's appauling, and every time the budget is about to expire. So we have to do a better job.

I don't know whether the new president can do that or not, but clearly the system isn't working as well as the founding fathers intended, that's for sure. I hope this interviewed Joe Biden when he uh takes officers. Before he takes office, I'd like to talk to him. I've known him for a long time, but I have never

interviewed him, so I'm looking forward to that. David, if if you'll indulge us, I'd love to go through some of the names on your list, because it is quite a lineup, m and just kind of what comes to mind in terms of their leadership and just talking to them. Jeff Bezos what Jeff is a person who started relatively late when you think about it, the companies, not that he started, but he's now built it into the company which is now one of the best known companies in

the world. And he's become the richest person in the world. But he still has a great deal of humility, I would say, and a pretty good sense of humor. And I think the interview was one of the most interesting ones in the book. Think about it. Many many times the richest person in the world over the past half century have been people have been relatively reclusive. Howard Hughes, nobody really knew him. J Paul Getty, nobody really knew him. Bill Gates and and Jeff Bezos both are pretty accessible,

and you can get ahold of him. You can see him, you can talk to him. It's not not quite what it used to be. And I love in your book that when you talk about Jeff Bezos that you had an opportunity is it right to have a one percent equity stake in the company and you passed? Well, we actually had opportunity of about us on that we did get. We did get one told that at the I p oh, so we thought it was going nowhere. That was our

biggest mistake. It happens, it could be worse. What about when it comes to someone like Justice Ruth Bader Ginsburg, who we lost earlier this year. Yeah, she was a person who weighed about a hundred pounds when I interviewed at the Street Y in New York. Ninety of those pounds were her brain. Incredibly smart person, but it's very

difficult to interview in this sense. Um, when you asked somebody a question interview, you expect an answer within a second or so, but she would pause for twenty seconds or so. When you say, oh, she having a senior moment, did she not hear me? Was an offensive question, but she was actually thinking about what she wanted to say and then would say it in paragraph form. So she

was very, very good. Well, and what about someone like Oprah Winfrey, which is just I think for all of us would just I think be so nervous sitting down with her. But what was that like? Well, it's hard to interview the greatest interview of them all, perhaps, but I've known her a little bit and uh so it wasn't quite the first time I'd met her, so it was it was okay, and uh, it went well, but you know, she didn't really need an interviewer. I mean, she's uh, she was giving a master class and how

to be interviewed and how to interview. So I was just mostly sitting there watching. But what do you want to know as a leader like this, this is all about leadership And what was it that just kind of stood with you about her? Well, she is somebody that came from very, very poor background, and now that she's become very famous and wealthy, she's trying to give back. She's involved in philanthropy. But she her greatest skill set, she would say, is not being an interviewer, but being

a listener. And she has empathy with the people she interviews, and that's what she says is her strength. What about yo Yo Ma, Well, Yo Yo is somebody I've come to know pretty well through the Kennedy Center, and he's a person that you know chess. He's the best known and the best cellis in the world. But that's not what he cares about. At this point in his career. He is about sixty five years old. He cares about

other things. He wants to perpetuate the idea that the arts make people better, better people that are humans, and so he's really interested in in in cutting people to learn more about the arts, not just listening to him play. So he spends at least half his life now trying to get people to become more familiar with the arts and appreciate the arts, all kinds of arts. And so he's an infectious personality. And he's on the change a little bit because he's a person that doesn't like to

shake hands. He likes to hug people, and in the in the COVID area, it's harder to hug people, so you probably have to change his technique there. I have to say, one of the things I like about the holiday season, David, is the Kennedy Center honors um. I still talk about led Zeppelin and Hard doing Stairway to Heaven.

There's like nothing like it. But I do look forward to it, and I think about the importance of arts and culture in our community, and I do wonder about the hit that it is all taking because of the pandemic, everything being shut down. You know, what are your hopes and expectations when we get on the other side of this. Well, the performing arts world has been decimated, and I would say probably ten of performing arts arenas or the state

or or venues are not going to probably reopen again. Well, David, and what do you think the role of the federal government has to be in terms of you know, we can go through a list, whether it's cultural institutions, UM, arts and entertainment. I look at the restaurant community, which I think is part of the fabric and culture of our you know, major cities and our society, and they are also getting decimated. What's the responsibility of the federal

government where it feels like that has really been forgotten. Well, yeah, I suppose you work in a food truck. Suppose you work in a restaurant. Uh, you know, you're probably not going to be uh employed that readily right now. And it's a tough situation. Many of these people are not people can readily go get another job so so easily. So it's very tough. I hope the most important thing we do in the next week or so has passed some legislation that will actually help with the economy and

help these people that need it the most. And we know there are a lot of people out there struggling. David, by the way, worked as a lawyer in the Senate and in the White House during the Carter administration. That was David Rubinstein, co founder, co executive chair of the Carlisle Group, host ap peer to peer conversations on Bloomberg Radio and TV. Check out his book How to Lead. He was talking with Bloomberg Quick Take anchor Tim Stenovik and me. That wraps up the first hour of the

weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. From Bloomberg Radio. I'm Carol Masser. More ahead in our next hour, including the stats on our virtual working from home world, plus paving the way to a more sustainable and regenerative future of fashion, and he played with the Rolling Stones, the Almond Brothers and Eric Clapton and more. Find out why he's the subject of a new documentary called The tree Man. That's all coming up. I'm Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg.

This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. Hi, I'm Carol Masser. Coming up in our second hour of the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week. All the crazy statistics on how much we are working from home, the folks over at Microsoft three six, They've got a ton of data on what we are all doing. Plus making mushrooms into high end fashion. That's the goal of Michael Works.

We check in with one of the co founders and the tree Man, the musician who toured with the Rolling Stones, the Almond Brothers, Eric Clapton and more, and who's now down on the farm. We kick off this hour with the story in the magazine about how, in this world of COVID and perhaps more virus and germs to come, that if you want to make a building healthier, stop

sanitizing everything. It's a great story from Projects and Investigations reporter Carolina Winter, who joined me and Bloomberg Quicktake anchor Tim Stenovic along with Bloomberg Business We Get It or Joe Weber, who kicked it off reminding us of our

sanitizing craze that's also been covered in the magazine. I love this story, and it's been uh one that I was just really looking forward to publishing, in part because, as you know, Carol, we've had a great Lysol story a couple of weeks ago, and it was, you know, the theme of that story was like you sanitize everything, but lights all over everything. It's so effective at killing COVID. And this is like the powder point, I think, which is look like when we when we do sanitize things,

we annihilate everything. And yeah, sure that gets out of COVID, But but how much do we really understand about the really small stuff. And that's where Caroline's reporting comes in because there's actually this little mini movement that's that says we're actually doing a lot of harm. And I think this makes it really it's especially relevant right now in New York as a snowstorm starts coming down, uh, that we're all going to be trapped indoors for the next

couple of months. And it's all about indoor environment. So so Carolyn take us into the world of science and what we don't know about what's going on inside of buildings right now. Yeah. Sure, well, so we're we're actually trapped inside a lot of the times. Just to show that in the West, um, humans spend indoors Americans, and about that in inside buildings and cars, and there's a lot of research showing that are disconnect from the outdoor world is linked to a huge range of really serious

chronic diseases and UM. And of course now we know that stars also spreads much more easily indoors, and so a lot of experts are asking, you know, what, how do you make the indoors healthier? And UM, the understandable, understandable tactic has been to just you know, which whip about the bleach and just bleach bomb everything. You know,

install air sanitizers, get your antimicrobial coatings. And the people I spoke with, they said, um, you know this, this it makes it makes a lot of sense just from a just you know, we've what we've long wanted to just annihilate any all pathogens. Um, but this may have really serious consequences for our long term health and may also not be helping very much against stars by the way. Yeah, well, you know, Carolyn, I think what's kind of interesting too

is this whole idea of these indoor microbes. Um. I just find it fascinating. And you talk about the microbiome of the built environment, and I love this. I wrote on the story when I was taking notes you which encompasses trillions of microbes, including bacteria, fungi, and viruses. I mean, there's so much stuff off in these closed spaces that we live in and consider a haven a safe haven, and they're not necessarily Yeah, no, it's true. There are

trillions and trillions of these. There's studies showing that they're actually an equal concentration of viruses as as bacteria in indoor air and what we have to realize is that there's no way we'll ever get rid of all of this stuff. So no matter how clean you make it, I mean, the the International Space Stations is filled with microbes, even though they disinfect everything that goes inside of it.

And so what we're doing potentially by cleaning like crazy, is wiping out some of the good bacteria that we actually really need to be healthy and perhaps even creating um more space for pathogens, including antibiotic resistance bacteria potentially,

which would be a you know, disaster. Let's actually dwell on that for a second, because there is actually this ongoing study that you reference that that I think the thrust of it is, like, what if the idea is like there's actually benign bacteria that could be all over everything and that actually helps keep the bad stuff at bay just by taking up space. Can you talk more

about that research? Yeah? Yeah, this is a really just amazing, amazingly interesting scientists um Jack Gilbert and he's doing he's doing a study right now in an undisclosed hospital in California. And the idea is really that if you sanitize everything and wipe off the microbes um and then somebody comes in and coughs, there's plenty of space, there's nothing there, so the virus or whatever, you know, whatever germs they

have can potentially take up route there and thrive. But he he hypothesizes that if you take from this bacteria and um and and colonize that that same surface, then the person who comes in and coughs on the surface, there's there's not as much chance for it to take up residents because it will be out competed for resources by the stuff that's already there. And so um, the results there's there have been previous studies to that extent with really encouraging findings, and this one is a little

bit more in depth. But but it's actually not that far fetched. There are already all sorts of cleaners that people are using that apply this probiotic concept. Um, the you're there spring bacteria, and the bacteria goes in and munches away dirt and stuff like that in in the cracks and crevices where you potentially couldn't even get too with cleaners. And so it's there's there's there's it's kind of a new frontier and and um and an exciting one. Okay,

so put a bow on it. We only got a couple of seconds left, Like, what's the one thing that that I should be doing as somebody who's gonna be trapped inside for for months now? What should we be doing? Just got well, you just try and think about aligning your buildings with nature as much as you can. Open the windows when you can, even if it's cold outside.

I'm definitely up for that. Love the outdoors. That's projects an investigations reporter caroly in a winter Bloomberg Business Week editor Joel Weber joining me and Bloomberg Quicktake anchor Tim Stanovic, speaking of spending more time outdoors, Are you wondering how much time you are actually spending online indoors perhaps working, and what it's doing to you. We've got that. It's coming up next. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This

is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Garrol Masser from Bloomberg Radio. Last hour, we covered this week's cover story. It's about the urban exodus as a result of working from home and the impact that may have on the American economy. Well, as we watch the pandemic potentially impacting American migration. The virus we know affecting how we work,

tracking how we are working from home. Is Jared Spitaro, his corporate vice president of Microsoft three sixty five, who came armed with tons of data a surge of COVID and that's changed the outside environment quite a bit. Um We have really tried, as I indicated them, to just be students of the moment and try and take in data from as many sources as we can and then piece together a mosaic a little bit of what's going on and where do we think it'll it'll go. Some

of the numbers for me are really pretty astounding. I'll give you a couple thinking of one of our products called Microsoft Teams. This is a product that brings together, for instance, meetings and chat and team workspaces. Teams users have had more meetings and calls per week now than they did pre pandemic. In addition the work they span and teams. So that's the time between the first and the last active log in is up by over an

hour in many countries in the world. In some countries like Australian Singapore, it's up by over two hours, and then that's even bleeding over into the weekends. Teams, chats on the weekend have spike, so none of that's really changed. I mean, those trend lines have stayed pretty consistent. They have. Um, we saw some countries starting to add back, as an example, Unity to Western Europe. There was this hope that we

could kind of get back. But during the spikes that we have seen in both places here in the winter, UM, we've just continued to see people, you know, moving backwards kind of in their progression, deciding we need to stay remote for a while. So those trends just continue for us. I wonder and I don't know if you guys are measuring this, measuring this, so forgive me if I'm going to place that you guys aren't. But I wonder about productivity because there is such a debate about you know,

people working from home, are they as productive? I mean I felt like I was really productive at home, and there were certain areas that I never were able to really make inroads on that I did at home and vice verse. So I just wonder what people are seeing.

You know. There was a really good article in the Well Street Journal today that I picked up on and I thought one of the conclusions there is worth repeating maybe it says that the research essentially says, you know, productivity for a lot of people is up for all the reasons that you say, but it's coming at a cost. Again to data points that give us some sense. When we recently went out and around the world hold workers just across different countries, we found it over thirty percent

of workers. And that was been a pool of six thousand people we ask so thirty percent of them said that the pandemic can increase their sense of burnout at work. Imagine that almost a third of people saying I feel more burned out. And then a third of remote workers say that the lack of separation between work and life so roughly about the same as negatively impacting what they would call their well being just overall. Well, and I wonder, you know, since you guys talk this stuff, how much

of it do you think? It was interesting? I was just talking with Ken Swig Swig Equities, who is very involved in the commercial real estate market um in New York and elsewhere on the country, and just this whole concept of working from home. You know how much of it sticks ultimately going forward? And I'm just curious. Microsoft is a company right that has said, you guys want to work from home, you can continue doing that, you

know after the pandemic. How much of some of the trends that we're seeing, uh, you know, after hours, weekend, how much of it do you think ultimately sticks? When we look at what people are learning during this pandemic, they are learning that in many instances, they can use digital connections to more easily, more conveniently connect with other people when they previously have relied on physically being present,

you know, right with someone. And so then if we kind of translate that into what are they saying about work post pandemic, we found that umi, excuse me, two percent of managers expect to have more flexible work from home policies post pandemic. So over eight percent of managers saying, yeah, we expect that we will give people the option to work from home. Seventy one percent of employees want to continue to work from home at least part time, and part time in many ways. As we're seeing the data

come in, is at least two days a week. So that's a pretty big change from pre pandemic. I think almost everyone felt like they needed to show up at work. If you imagine your workforce where just across the week, people who choose two of those days not to be there. We think even if just that sticks, it will dramatically change into dynamic of how people are getting their work done and when you guys are checking out, you know, when people you're doing your research and gathering the data.

I mean you're talking about impise companies from all different types of industries. Correct, that's correct. Yeah, we go across all different types of industries and we try to be broad based. At one survey I decided the moment ago, for instance, with six thousand workers across the world, so across different nations, in all different industries. So we're not just looking at one We're trying to get a really nice broadly segment size so that we can make sure

we see the trend well. And I wonder if you can, and you know, give me some insight into you know, with that promise of a vaccine here and on the horizon for for most workers, how quickly do you think we see employees kind of you know, get workers back in the office. Sure, we we think that it's going to take time for the vaccine to roll out, and

so we'll see that kind of rollout over time. We love the fact that we're seeing the vaccine go to those that need it most, perhaps healthcare workers and others. So we think that you look at one and it won't be all of a sudden. We think that there will be a long time being in this hybrid state. Our announcement has been that people won't have to come back to work, but we won't even be opened back to work until the summer, so July of one is what we've talked about this year. Hearing a lot of

that too here on the East Coast. Jared. One of the stats when we did the panel together that stuck out for me is you guys, actually are there some research and I think you guys were involved in it or let it on brain waves and what happens when we're in a video meeting. Can you share some of

that with our audience? You bet. I think all of us who have been involved in kind of these virtual meetings have selpt a sense of fatigue, and so we were pretty curious about that early on, wondering, you know, was it was it just made up or were we actually feeling something. So we went into the lab and actually put these sensors on people allowed them to both interact in person and interact in virtual meetings. What we found wasn't surprising if you were in online meetings, but

there was science now behind it. It turns out that these online meetings really do tax our brain more. They make it more difficult for us to concentrate, They make it more difficult for us to stay in the meetings and be productive, So that was really interesting. From there, we decided that we there probably some innovation that was going to be necessary, and so we did create some kind of product features that were and to address that

and teams. The things that we found that are making a big difference UM consists somewhat of technology and somewhat of just us learning new ways of doing things. So let me tell you one that was surprising to me. One of the pieces of research that we did that now has made its way into the product is the

idea of a virtual commute. Awesome not to be able to not to have to jump into a car and or a subway and commute into work, But what we found was that people were having a really high hard time creating boundaries between their work and life, and so we've actually introduced a bot into the team's environment that allows people to kind of ramp up into their work day, have it just a little bit of a buffer, and then to ramp down out of the work day to

really process what happened. Yeah, just a reminder of how our physical commutes to and from work we're really a necessary process of winding up and winding down our days, and now how it's being done virtually. That's jared's Pitaro, Corporate vice president of Microsoft three. The pandemic we know, we say it's so much impacting so much of our

world in fluting an interest in sustainability. One company has taken that to heart and is creating a new material out of mushrooms to be used in high end fashion. That's coming up next. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. MS is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Garrol Mazer from Bloomberg Radio. We're bringing you some of this week's highlights on our daily radio show and podcast. And you might recall we recently had a conversation about sustainability

with the head of Patagonia, Jenna Johnson. Sustainability and making clothes and products that they sell Overall, the global ethical fashion market size reached about six point thirty five billion last year and it's expected to grow to eight and a quarter billion in three Sophia Wang is co founder of Michael Work. She knows about that She is combining aren't science to create sustainable fashion materials. She tells us

how they're doing it. What we are doing is developing advanced bio materials from a natural material called my celium. So matium refers to the fine networks of threads that form the vegetative part of the organism that most people are familiar with as a mushroom. So as a visual you can imagine the mushrooms you see above ground and my celium as the rooting structure that extends below ground.

So we've developed a advanced materials platform called fine mycelium and it amplifies my soul's natural capacity to bind to itself and other materials, creating strong, interwoven three dimensional networks that enable strength and durability in our materials. And our first product is called Raci. It's a new class of biomaterial that is a sustainable option for fine leather that is non animal, non plastic, and we are introducing it

via the luxury fashion and footwear market. And are you just is it just starting to go out to people who actually make products, because that's it. You're you're providing this material, right, and then it's up to the retail world, the fashion world, to then shape it into products. Correct. Correct, Yes, our partners are brands, and we've actually been sharing material with and working with them collaboratively for several years now, very closely. Um iterating on product prototypes will give me

an idea. Are they brands that we all know about? Oh? Yes, they're really exciting household name brands, some of the most elite and respected brands in the world. And I am so excited to soon be able to share who they are, which we will be able to do in the coming months. Okay, interesting, So, so they've been have they actually been making products and

selling products? Are just kind of experimenting with it, So they have been in the prototyping and testing phase and and so, um, we have not yet launched for sale, but that is coming soon. That's really fascinating. What's okay? So, one thing I wanted to ask you is, you know, sometimes the sustainable process is taxing on the environment. And

I do wonder about this. I've talked about this with folks who are involved in sustainable farming or hydroponic farming, that there's a lot of electricity involved, So that goes kind of counter to being good for the environment. The process itself. Is it taxing on the environment? Is it neutral or carbon neutral on the environment? What do we

know about that? So we've been measuring UM the carbon impact of our product and process since actually two thousand and six UM that's when we first started doing preliminary l c A S lifecycle analyses on our product and process. And so what I can tell you is that you know, we're starting with my clium, which is one of the Earth's most powerful and abundant agents of regeneration and carbon sequestration. UM. My felium plays an important and symbiotic role in the

health and regeneration of many of our ecosystems. Adding to that, my cilium grows on very widely available plants and wood based biomass, so you can think of that as by byproducts from other agricultural and lumber based industries. So we're starting with UM a process of the essentially recycling and adding value to existing plant biomass and bringing in a

powerful carbon sequestering agent. And so you know, we just died another cycle of a lc A screening and we're really excited to be able to bring UM that data forward in the near future. Um. All the data that we have right now supports the potential impact that we have to bring a very beneficial, sustainable material to market. It sounds like, Um, Sophie, you guys have been obviously working on this for a long time, kind of perfecting it.

You're working with brands who are testing out you know, making fashion if you will, and you know from from your from the product from Rachie. Am I saying it correctly, Racie, forgive me? And so no, but I just do wonder So how are you guys like funding this and supporting it? Did?

Was it VC money? Was it Angel money? Were you bootstrapping? Oh? Yeah, in the first few years it was bootstrapped, and then we got some seed money through a biotech accelerator based ser Francisco in d Bio, and we closed our Series A back in and we've just announced the closing of our Series by million in financing. Wow. So so okay, So I'm just thinking as consumers. When is it that we're all like talking about RACI or understanding like miss elium,

like that platform. When will it become kind of you think, part of the norm. I mean, it's obviously your hopes and expectations for it, but I mean, realistically, when does

it really start to have an impact. I think that I've already seen the impact, of course from my perspective being at the forefront of developing this, but in the you know, let's say seven to ten years i've been thinking about it, I've seen widespread growth and people knowing what my celium is, and also UM inspiring other companies to develop their own my celium based materials. So I think UM, with our launches, launches WHI are planned for the near future, we're going to make a huge impact

and visibility of the material and the new technology. I'm looking forward to hearing more on the partnerships and brands that they are working with to make that impact. That was Sophia Wayne, co founder of Michael Works. Up next mixing rock and roll legacy was sustainable tree farming. We'll hear from the musician who played with rock icons make Eric and Dwayne straight Ahead on Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser

from Bloomberg Radio. That's Chuck Leavel playing with Eric Clapton. And if you're looking for something to watch this weekend, how about a new documentary. It chronicles the musician singer songwriter Chuck Lavell, who has spent half a century going around the world with the Rolling Stones, touring with the

Almond Brothers, Eric Clapton and more. Chuck is also an environmentalist and tree farmer, and his friends with the acclaimed director, filmmaker and photographer Alan Forrest, who directed this new documentary. That friendship to the making of The Tree Man. Alan and I had known each other for a number of years because he had asked me to play on a guitar player um session that he was managing and promoting, and so I went up to Ohao for the session.

Everything went fine. Then there was this long gap where I didn't really talk to Alan, and we had this concept to do a documentary and we were in Las Vegas to do a show with the Rolling Stones, which unfortunately got canceled because Met got laryngitis and Allan happened, just happened to be in in um Las Vegas and out of the blue call me up. So we talked about it. He convinced me that he really, really wanted it.

I'm so glad that we got together and did this and we shot over three and a half years, and he just did a masterful job not only of shooting during all that time, but of weaving the stories together. So very very pleased. Well, let's talk about that, Alan, because you know right at the stop at the top, you know, there are the three storylines of Chuck's life, his musical life, his life as an environmentalist, but also you wove in his personal life and his love for

his wife. How did you think about weaving those stories together? Because it's really cool. You go from kind of making bacon to talking about the Almond brothers. You go from talking rolling stones and seeing Mick, Keith and Ronnie and then talking about setting burns and forests. It's really wonderful how it's all woven together. Alan. Oh, thank you, Carol Um,

thanks for having a song. Yeah, you know, I think Chuck's story I knew from the outside just when he was wanting to do this, and I really wanted to do it. You know, I knew he had a great story uh to tell, and it was just kind of it just needed to come out, you know, and uh, this this opportunity I wanted to take and make this film as unique as as he is, you know. And he is a salt of the earth kind of guy. Uh.

He never take more than what he he needs. Um, but he gives back way more uh than the common guy. You know, and not only musically, but also with his forest life. And also his marriage is kind of works the same way. I mean, it's it's a real testament to be in the rock and roll business and have a marriage at forty seven years uh, you know what

I mean. But he also met her in a very unique way at Capricorn Records, so um, you know, Rose Lane worked there right when you walked in the doors, and he met her at such a young age and they they fall in love and they've been together ever since. As the movie says, you know, yeah, it actually you know, sets goals for all of us in a relationship. It's really it's really lovely, Chuck, I mean, what did you think about I mean three three and a half years,

As you said, the process of it. What what was it that you hoped ultimately was shown as you worked with Alan on this. You know, my main motivation, Carol, was to wind up with a document for my family, for grandchildren, for future grandchildren, great grandchildren up the road, and not only of my life or you know, myself and my wife Rose Lane, but also for the times. You know, to to have a document of what the touring was like with the Stones at this particular point

in time. Uh, talk about some of the things we did in the past with the Almond Brothers band and you know, some of the other musicians and artists that I've just been so privileged to work with. I imagine that there had to be some serious logistical issues during filming. I mean, how do you travel the world recorded interviews with I think some eight people touring a lockdown? Well it's it was we we kind of finished right before

Lockdown happened. But but you know, for for those three years, yeah, you're right, we went you know, Europe like seven eight times and back and forth, and you know, one day you're with Clapton, the next day you're with Gilmore. I mean, it was like living Chuck's life on warp speed going, you know, back with all the people he had played with, which which you were trying to bring that into the story,

you know. So it's it's always a challenge when you're when you're traveling with three thousand pounds of gear on a smaller crew to try to save money because you know, we knew we were going to interview well, we could have potentially interviewed eighty people, um, and we really got them all, you know, So it just we had to kind of stretch the budget out to make it happen. But that that's kind of how we did it. So check. I gotta ask you because as we talked about earlier,

woven through the film, is your love of the environment? Uh? And you talk about it a lot. Where did that all come from it? And I know you talk about in the film when your wife inherited a farm. Um, but just talk to us a little bit about this and what you're hoping the message you're hoping to get out to people. Yes, well, it is definitely all my wife's fault because you guys always blame us, that's always

what happens. But you know the fact is that Rose Lanes family has been connected to the land literally for generations as farmers tending cattle and livestock, attending forest land and road cropping. And you know, when we first got together, and as we pointed out earlier, it's been forty seven years now, uh, I began to get a field for the passion to love, the dedication of the land that

this family had. And in nine she inherited some land from her grandmother, and it became our responsibility to carry on what I saw is a heritage of stewardship. And so I went on a little, you know journey, educational journey, going to library, checking out books on land use and so forth. And the short up it is that I had kind of an aha moment when I realized, well, where does that thing that has given me so much joy in such a great career come from? The piano?

Of course, had comes largely from the resource of wood, and as does most other musical instruments, so I have personal connection. And I really wanted to study forestry and learn more about, you know, long term sustainable forestry. It's

certainly something very near and dear tall of us. And I think this year of dealing with the pandemic, dealing with inequities but also you know, seeing the environment, um, you know, what happens when the economy shuts down and the skies are blue again and you can see mountain ranges. But also watching those terrible fires in California. I mean, Alan, I feel like in so many ways this film is just spot on. Yeah, you know, four years ago and

we started it. We we didn't really know that the California fires were going to take off and be so much in the news in the last year. And I think some of those practices that Chuck talks about with firebreaks and some of that stuff, um, you know, I think, you know, you're hoping that environmentalists can take a um, you know, maybe step back and look at some of those practices and you know, you might have to give

a little to keep a lot, you know sometimes. And I think that's kind of the message of of the film. And you know, I think if your listeners want to check it out, you know, they can. They can find it on v O D now, which would put them into like iTunes, Apple iTunes or Amazon and they can just search the tree Man. But I think ce and Chuck's story, um and watching what he brings to the table with the environment. Um, it's just a big piece

of the movie that you don't really see coming. You know, you you know, he has this uh, just giant body of work that he's done, not only on um, you know, hits and helping other bands, but then these other, you know, humongous bands. He's been touring with them, playing with from the Almond Brothers to The Stones. It's just incredible because if if you had just one of those in your career, it would have been a monumental career. But he's done this.

I'm in time again. A quick kind of word association with you, Chuck. If I can just briefly, if I say Rolling Stones, what comes to mind? Fun? I bet there are stories? Well, can I tell you? A colleague said to me that they once heard that Ronnie would start his day with four Guinnesses. Is that true? Oh no, listen, Ronnie has been clean and sober for a long time now, and he's got a wonderful wife, Sally, and they have to two beautiful twin daughters that are just adorable. And

Ronnie has got it together. I mean, it's amazing. And don't forget he's probably the most popular contemporary visual artist in the in the world today. Yeah, that's act. That's actually a really good point as well. Um Allman Brothers. What comes to mind? Oh and southern rock, um, you know, paving the way for a new kind of music. Clapton, Oh wow, impatible, Uh, gentlewoman, Um, generous and awesome. Southern yellow Pine. Southern yellow Pine is everything to me. It's

where I am. That's who I am, It's where I live. And Rose Lane Love, love and more love. He's a rocker, he's an environmentalist and as you can tell, a romantic musician. Chuck Leavell along with the director and filmmaker Alan Forst on their new documentary The tree Man. That complete conversation can be found on our podcast feed. And that wraps up the weekend edition to Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio.

Thanks so much for joining us. I'm Carol Masser. Be sure to tune in daily to Bloomberg Business Week Monday through Friday starting at two pm Wall Street Time on Bloomberg Radio. You can also hear more of our Bloomberg Business Week conversations download theb at Bloomberg dot com, Apple podcast, or wherever you get your podcasts. You can also watch us on YouTube. Just search Bloomberg Global News and be sure to check out our Bloomberg Business Week at Extra podcast.

This week with Prince Emmanuel Philiberto di Savoya, who did the unthinkable opening his first brick and mortar restaurant in the l A neighborhood of Westwood, all during the pandemic. Bloomberg Business Week It's available on news stands, now, online, and of course on the Bloomberg. Have a safe weekend everyone, This is Bloomberg