Bloomberg Businessweek Weekend - April 25th, 2020

It's also a week where the President actually shifted his tone a little bit, Jason on reopening. He did, indeed, and that was in part of response to this sort of patchwork checkerboard that we're seeing across the United States, governors really trying to make the hard decision about when to reopen their individual economies. We also saw a blockbuster another blockbuster, and not in a good way, jobless claims report,

the market sort of digesting that. In the meantime, we spoke to CEOs, investors, Nobel Laureate indeed, and all of these conversations, we should remind folks they took place over the course of the week. News is changing fast, so keep up to date. If you hear things and you're like, wait, did that actually happen? Uh, sometimes it changed almost overnight. That's right, Jason. And among the conversations we had this week with the Box CEO, chairman and co founder Aaron Levy.

It's actually featured in the magazine in BW Talks, and we got his thoughts. He's very concerned, obviously about the crisis, but he also sees some opportunities for growth and in certain sectors, so we caught up with him. We also caught up with the CEO of Headspace. We've been trying to focus our show a lot on the physical and the mental well being of all of us. I think it's very important to both you and me. We know

it's important to our listeners. Richard Pearson, he co founded that meditation app and let's just say it his mainstream in a big way. And full disclosure, both you and I love Headspace, the app. It's on our phones and really find it helpful in this situation and also helpful, no doubt about it. We went back to Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman. He you know, has talked about the economy,

the impact on individuals and workers. He also sees that we are in a problem where it's not about specifically low wages, but it's a problem of no wages for workers, and that's why he says stimulus really needs to think about helping out individuals to get our economy back on track. It was a great conversation that's coming up. First up, though, we go inside the magazine and find out why COVID

nineteen is so hard to beat. We spoke with Business Week editor Joe Weber and Blueberg Healthcare reporter Robert Langreth. This virus is COVID, you know, you know, it's looking increasingly obviously like it's not going away anytime soon, and we're really going to need to develop custom treatments against us. That is, things drugs that are specifically designed to target this covid because the vaccine might take a while and

the antibize it. The General is developing that wass are likely to be some of the first custom design drugs it could come up out against this coronavirus. And the General and in particular has been working on antibodies for a lot of visas for a long time. But they've been even though they don't sell any drugs for infections. Now.

They've been quietly working on antibodies for various effectants for a long time, and they had right literally a month or two before the coronavirus happened, they had the most successful trial in the history of a bowl of treatment, and that was their antibody cocktail. Now they're trying to do the same what they as a bola for the coronavirus. Devised antibodies block the key spike proteins in the top

of the virus and basically neutralize the virus. And you could inject this in and use it either potentially as a treatment for six patients or kind of as a prophylactics like high risk workers like doctors and nurses and people are kind of going into the line of fire. How difficult is it, Bob, to get to it, like, in other words, to get funnily an antibody treatment that

actually works. We've got lots of folks working on it, but it sounds like that there's a fair amount of failure to be expected along the way, like anything in drug developments, Absolutely no guaranteed. All work that could be you know, side effects that you know they don't expect, you know, there's absolutely no guaranteed that you know, that's one reason why there's there's actually several companies working on it,

so we generals one doesn't work out. There's Astigenica, there's a chemic called Veerabot technology you know, literally is working on. There's like several kind of efforts that are like semi semi competing with your other apparel efforts. So there's like several kind of shots and goals kind of what they call it. But there is reason to be hopeful that the antibody treatment you know, as a as a you know, better odds of success than than some other you know, treatments.

And one reason that does have this track it worked against the bowl and some particularly tough viral diseases. And we quote in our stories, I have the former head of the FBA, Scott got Lap, saying, you know, if I had to bet on any one drug treament working out and being able to help, it would be some of these antibodies rocks, because the technology is really you know, increased amazingly and speed and specificity over the years. Well, and I do wonder about that sort of collaboration and

competition and everything that normally happens in this world. How has that changed as you look across this entire industry? Bomb Well, I mean, you know, the different companies you know, as we look at are still doing different efforts and analyzed and slightly different approaches. So a lot of different

companies doing different things. What's new and what's different? Is there kind of there is more of a spirit of like keeping in touch with the you would normally be your competitor and talk to them about you know, you're doing X and I'm doing why, and like how might we work together? And you know, if you need to

work together, you know we will. Uh So there there there is kind of this feeling that, you know, some companies, you know, may may need to donate the manufacturing capacity to whatever turns out to work, you know, and not sit on it. You know, if that that may if someone else's drug works and then and then yours doesn't, you may need to kind of you know, donate your

your manufacturing capacity of the cause in some way. And they are not not be worried about the fact that someone else's drugs it's the one that turned out to work. And that's the kind of discussions that we're hearing are

going on right now. Now there's no there's nothing specific in the place because none of these things have you have worked yet, so we don't know, and so for the time being, it's good that you know we general On has a lot of and a lot of other companies are you working on similar type blocks for you just can't predict which of these things are going to work your test them. That's Bloomberg News healthcare reporter Robert Langrath and Joe Webber, the editor of Bloomberg Business Week.

This is one of those stories that I think will be going back to Carol in some ways because it, yes is a moment in time, but also setting the medical stage is at the core of all of this. Well and discovering some kind of antibody treatments. It means that we can treat those that already are infected, and until we have a vaccine, it's kind of a short

term prophylactic for those that are at high risk. And so this is how we need to think about it, right Jason, because of vaccine is going to take a lot longer than we all have time for it to some extent, so we've got to figure out steps along the way so that we can reopen the economy and get back to somewhat of a normal way of living, whatever normal looks like. On the other side of this,

you're listening to Bloomberg Business Week, speaking of health. Coming up, we hear from a doctor on the front lines of the COVID nineteen pandemic. Not just a doctor, but ahead of a massive hospital system where the first U case of the virus was confirmed. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Master and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. Well, today we're bringing you some of the most important and informative conversations we had on our

daily Bloomberg Business Week radio show this week about the coronavirus. Carol, so Jason, we spoke with Dr Rod Hawkman, the Presidency of Providence Health and they have been one of the great resources that we have leaned on during the COVID nineteen pandemic. And what's interesting, of course, the first US case was confirmed at their hospital system, although as we're learning, maybe some of these cases came earlier. Anyway, he talked to us about where we are in the virus and

where we need to be. You know, the thing that we had, we were lucky enough, I guess, because we have the first case January one in uh Washington State and that put us on the alarm because we knew once we had that case, this this is going to spread. And of course we had the Kirkland nursing Home and then more and more. When I think people have to understand, I'm also an imman knowlogist by training. That was my degree. So this this virus has been out and around and

it's not like it just pops up somewhere. So what we're finding out a lot of asymptomatic cases, relatively mild cases. So what we really think, it's not like this thing is just kind of spreading from one town to the next. That in a lot of cases, that's there. And then what happens if the people get together or it you know, it breaks out in the nursing home and then you

have a flare and it's up. So a lot of us believe a lot of this has been out and around us for a lot longer than we really believe it to be. The good news for us is that we've been at it longer and we stayed pretty pretty hard on social distancing. So we're really starting to see not only we're starting to see the real decrease in

the number of cases things are opening up. The actually some of our hostiles are half empty because we stopped a lot of elective surgery and whatnot, and we're actually trying to think, how do we turn this back and carefully and what do we do next? So what you're going to see around the rest of the country, and are these what people would say, are what seem like outbreaks, But there's gonna be flares in cases that are there,

and it takes a while. Both points you did on top of it, and I say more a little later on getting on top of it, and particularly in densely populated areas, you know, it has a tendency obviously to spread a lot each here than it does in the less dense settings. So I need we want to ask you, you know, Dr hawkman, you know, what does coming out of this look like? And I know there's a bunch of steps and we'll get into that, but what does

coming out of this look like? In your view? It's gonna look so like people start out waves after you know, what's the second waves look like. I think it's more a king to ripples that we're going to see. So we're going to have to live with a spyrus as long. I hate to say it, until we have a vaccine, but I think we can get into a better relationship

with it and be able to manage and control it better. Obviously, as more people in the community have been exposed have some level of immunity, we get better at testing and then you bring things back. But we're going to have and we should expect in places like Washington or California or other places that there will be these little ripples that occur where there'll be in some cases that breakout we've got. You know, that's where the isolation getting on

top of it early really makes sense. But we'll have that. We're gonna have to live with that. I have to say through the end of the year. Now is it compatible? You know, we live in a real tech community. So following Amazon, Microsoft, we're all talking about how to get people back to work and be able to do that safely. And we think we can we can gradually open that up, but we aren't gonna have We're not going to see the end of the COVID nineteen, but he'll be a

lot more. It'll be easier to control it, easier to diagnose it. So we were talking about kind of life after the virus, and you said you don't see large groups gathering for a long time. Two questions, what's a long time? And so things like sports, concerts, um kids going to college, Uh, you know, pick your thing, commuting, like, how do we you know, what are the events we can do? What are the events we can't. You talked about office settings probably work, but I'd love more specifics

you're thinking because it's a really informed thinking. Sure. So I've had a whole bunch of university presidents call me and say, okay, kind of get my kids back in September, and if we do, how do we do it? So we had good discussions about that, but I said, when the kids, if you can get the kids back, which I think I think you can, you'd preferably we'd love to test them before they come back to campus and have as much information knowing that they're healthy coming back.

And then in in the you know, you're not going to have a lecture hall with three people in it, but you could have smaller classrooms with some spread and probably do learning that's a combination of torul and in place learning. Uh so, kind of mapping that out and making sure to do it. So I think there's really some hope for universities because you can manage the population, manage the setting. I think in terms of large gatherings, you know, concerts, a lot of folks that have theaters.

In Seattle, it said, when can we get back to what we're doing? It's just gonna be hard to see unless we have a better control on what this looks like getting two hundred, fifty or three hundred people in the same room. So for sporting events, I kind of think we're all going to learn to love golf a lot, and the question is whether you can do You can do some pro sports maybe without a large crowd. You know that's control, but at least you can watch it on TV. So that's some of the ways thinking in

terms of that. The good news is is that every week that goes by, we learn more. So Alaska's really opening up. We're gonna start opening up, and I think we'll learn a lot by what happens. So every week or months that goes by, we'll get smarter about it and be able to kind of refine some of those predictions that are out there. But right now, if you ask me that's that would be off the top quick. Did you say so, I'm sorry forgive me. Did you give us a timeframe for when we can kind of

get back to normal large groups? Is that a year away? Well? I said when when are you're talking large groups? Like seeing you in our place? The Seahawks, are the Mariners are doing that? I gotta believe that we're not going to feel comfortable with a we have a vaccine and then a question on the vaccine and you know, there's so much noise out there. I kind of laugh when

I hear it. You know, there's at least fifteen different companies working on vaccines, and part of it's working on there's some newer vaccine technology that uses messenger RNA that might give us a vaccine faster than some of the others. You know, we're going to see how that is, because we've got to get better at getting vaccine faster than saying a year, a year and a half. So that's what I'm looking towards that. Dr Rod Hawkman, he's the

president CEO of Providence Health. They're based out there in Everett, Washington, and Jason. They have been a great resource for us and understanding the virus itself, how you treat with it, what are the concerns, and and why it's going to take us a while to really get our hands around it well and very much on the front lines. And this is a system. As you say, some of the

earliest cases that were identified. We did get some news this week as you alluded to that the earliest deaths may have happened in California even earlier weeks before what happened in Washington state. But clearly the state of Washington, the Seattle area has set a template. A lot of folks here on the East Coast have learned what they've been doing. He's also said he would love to test

everyone before going back to work. And he was the one, remember who said, doesn't expect to see large groups gathering for a long time, and that means, you know, those sports outings and you name it, it's not going to happen until we get a vaccine. And he's a Seahawks fan. You're listening to Bloomberg Bus this week coming up, another edition of Business Week Talks featuring our conversation with Box

CEO Aaron Levy. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. We're bringing you some of the most important and informative conversations that we had on our daily radio show about the coronavirus this week, and we're bringing you today another edition of Business Week Talked. That's where we sit down with the CEO, business leader and really go a little deeper than the typical earnings interview or just sort of

drive by what's happening at your company. We get into leadership and we get into in this case, crisis management. This time around, we spoke with Aaron Levy. He's the CEO and co founder of Box. So we've you know, we've been very, very focused as a company, um with our two thousand employees on obviously first the health and safety of all of our employees, but but but secondarily making sure that we really helped us support our custom

or during this time. So our our platform is used by about a hundred thousand businesses globally, including the Fortune five hundred um really to help them be able to securely access and share their data from anywhere. And so any company that is um uh you know right now and a work work from home or remote work environment obviously needs secure access to their data and their information. Um and our platform is is there to help them

with that. So um, so we're right now, we're just focused on our customers making sure that they can get the most out of our technology right now while they're in this new way of of working from a work from home environment. What have you learned it as you've talked to you know sort of folks on on the front lines, is that we're of trying to stand up their companies in a different way. Yeah, I mean this is this is certainly probably one of the most radical

shifts in technology and business operations in history. Um. The you know, the first is obviously the technology front. So being able to run your company almost completely in the cloud, where you have to have modern technologies, whether that Zoom or WebEx or Microsoft Teams or Slack from a video conferencing and a chat standpoint, or being able to get access to your data from applications and platforms like Box. So some companies were already way ahead of the curve.

They've been invested in these in these technologies for three or five or ten years, UM and other companies that I obviously had to scramble much more rapidly UM and in some cases in a much more disruptive way to be able to respond to this. So the first is the big technology transformation I think most companies are experiencing UM.

And then as soon as companies started to settle into this remote work and work from home environment UM, really the next shift has been actually how we work and UM and this is probably gonna be the most profound part of the transformation, which is how we're collaborating, what hours we're doing work, how we moved our our our businesses and projects forward. So we are seeing some pretty significant changes in the underlying ways that people are working.

So we're we're seeing that that the days are actually longer in terms of work is getting done more in off hours from our customers were thing that people are using more technology to be able to do their jobs. So obviously we've shifted too, you know, much more virtual ways of working, and we're seeing an increase in collaboration amongst industries. So UM in businesses like media or life sciences or healthcare or education, massive increases in the amount

of collaboration and data sharing that's happening in those markets. So, um, so the you know, the certainly there's gonna be a lot of businesses and business models that are under pressure right now. But for those that aren't, or for those that are are responding to this event, um, we're seeing um still significant levels of a lot of these industries.

So you know, it's interesting. I'm listening to what you're talking about, and Jason and I have been asking a lot of CEOs of various companies from different industries about what's what's kind of the longer term impact of the virus? How does how does it change our world? So when we emerge, you know, from this immediate crisis, what's the most important, in your view underappreciated way that the world will be different and at least from your area of expertise. Yeah, yeah, no, great,

great question. I mean I think I think there's so many things that we've um just taken for granted in terms of how we do our work. Um that you know, we go into the office, we go into meeting, we you know, take a couple of hours, we get teams together, we maybe take a while to make a decision. We don't necessarily bring in all the voices from around our

company to make that decision. It happens to be whoever, whoever could attend the meeting, you know, you know physically in a lot of cases, UM, or we we go and we spend three days on a on a international trip to do one or two meetings in a different country. UM. I think what we're gonna start to see is, is you know, how productive we can do with technology and

how much more connected we can actually be with technology. UM. In the past couple of weeks, I've I've spent probably five times the amount of time I have historically with international colleagues, UM, and even in international customers. And that's because it's just so much easier where the expectation is that we're gonna be much more communicative and we're gonna

be able to collaborate much more efficiently now. So I think you're actually going to see in a very odd way because of social distancing and increase in the level of conne action that teams have, in the connection you have with your customers, in the amount of collaboration that you're doing on a global basis, um, and there will be a lot of positives um to that. I think

you're gonna see all new businesses emerge. You're gonna see all new types of players be able to get customers that previously wouldn't have been able to serve on a global basis. And of course at the same time, we're going to see real, real and severe impact obviously the local economy, um, you know, being right at the center of that. And that's Box CEO, Aaron Levy, a young guy, but he has seen some things for sure. And this is a company, Carol, that is very much on the

front lines in sort of a different way. As we have shifted so much of our lives remote, we are leaning heavily on the cloud. And I love what he said. A leadership lesson is, you know, sometimes you have to learn to pivot. You have to be decisive, but you've got to change to adapt to the situation. And that is certainly something all leaders are learning right now. Amid

the virus. You're listening to Bloomberg business Week. Coming up, we hear from Jason Flom, the founder and CEO of Lava Record, someone who has done so much in the music si industry. He still is, but he's also helping those wrongly incarcerated. He is an incredible guy. This was a wide ranging conversation. To say the least, you're gonna want to tune in. This is Woomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from

Bloomberg Radio. Well, today we're bringing you so the most important and we hope informative conversations we had on our daily Bloomberg business Week radio show about the coronavirus, it's impact and how different industries and different leaders are dealing with it. Jason, we have the opportunity to catch up with Jason flam He's the founder and CEO of Lava Records. He has been in the music industry for a long

long time. We talked with him about what the industry will look like after the virus, because everything has had to shut down, slow down because of the virus. We also talked with him about the work he has done on helping those wrongfully incarcerated. He's created an organization, he's also got a podcast, so so much to talk about. We also talked with him about our respect of daughters. Here's an author, mine a reader. I am broadcasting from

my daughter's bedroom here in sleepy Hollow, New York. And so I have at hand her favorite book, which, and I'm not kidding you, is Lulu as a Rhinoceros. So we oh my god, him, I'm about to melt into a puddle of chairs here, but keep going. We have so she's too. And now every dog that looks like Lulu is Lulu when we go out on walks and things like that. And she basically, even at two, can like point out every sort of turn in the book. So anyway, thank you as a as a father, thank

you for writing that book. It's really it's a very sweet tale. And it's been, uh, it's been just a wonderful addition to our library. Oh that makes me so happy. I'm really glad she likes so I'm glad you guys are having a good experience with it. So it was a labor of love. Yes, it appears so and and and you you wrote it with your daughter, do it? Do I have that right? Yeah? Yeah, I wrote it with my daughter. Now you're reading to your daughter, so

it's really a beautiful thing. Um, yeah, I wrote with my daughter, just because my my you know, I do a lot of work with one on the board of this organization called vet POL, which is Veterans in Power to protect African wildlife, and so their mission it's U S Military veterans who are on the ground in South Africa arresting poachers, breaking up poaching rings, and saving rhinos and elephants. And I came back from a trip there and got to spend time up close and personal with rhinos.

And I was sitting on the couch with my dog Lulu and telling her about my trip, and she looked at me right in the eyns well, I'm a rhinoceros too, And I was like, what are you? What are you talking about? You're obviously a dog. You're small and purager on my couch as she said, Kate, you see, I have short legs, a big body, and a flat head. I only run fast for short distances, and I'm clumsy, and I burp and snore and far like a rhino.

I'm a rhino. So I thought, let's tell the story and if we could create a hero for kids who feel left out, put down or bullied because the way they look, the way they feel it the way they are, Let's do that. And so I listed the help of my daughter, Um, and she's a real writer and she's remember the LGBTQ community as well. So it just came out, you know whatever, We did it, and it came out better than I could have expected. And now it's a hit book. And I hope everyone goes and got to

this called Lulu is a rhinoceros. It's terrifict. I can tell you it's it's got great pictures and a very as you say, sort of a really nice message to it. Um. And in any case, uh, well, it's just one of the many things that you've done. I mean, let's talk about the music industry if we can. Everything has been disrupted, but people are maybe not making music right now in the exact same ways. What does it look like on the ground, I mean, how is the music industry affected here?

Oh my god, it's a you know, upheaval, like I guess almost every industry right because of the fact that there's no concerts. I mean, this is a very you know, look the whole world. It's hard to imagine that five or six weeks ago we would have been having a conversation about where to go for dinner. You know, now it's a question you when I have dinner in the kitchen or the dining room, you know, I dining room

or whatever, um, or in front of the TV. Um. But yeah, So the music industry is completely offended that they're saying that the concerts could be as much as eighteen months away before we see a return to some sort of normalcy. It's obviously going to be gradual. Um. People are consuming music, for sure. Um, they're consuming it in different ways. Not in their commute to work, but

at home. They're diving into their catalogs. We're seeing a trend towards rock and a little bit you know, a slight decline and hip hop and pop to more people listening to rock, people listening to music that makes them feel good and comfortable, pulling you know, catalog is up. Um. Not surprisingly, I guess as people are home and they have time to you know, and they're looking for something that feels I think, you know, comfortable and familiar and good.

So delighted that we have Jason Flam with him, founder and CEO of Lava Records. He's also a founding board member of the Innocence Project host of the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction. UM, Jason tell Us remind everybody about the work to doing with the Innocence Project and your podcast where you really get to and have these incredible conversations with people who were wrongfully incarcerated. Yeah, thanks so much. Um. You know, I started this podcast a few years ago.

Guess my timing was good because so the people, the Exonorees. I've gotten to know hundreds of Exonorees over the years of working with the Innocence Projects since the mid nineties, early nineties, and they're the most extraordinary people that you can never meet because they've literally been to hell and they've come back and out and and with with with grace, with courage, with optimism, and you know what we're focusing on now, you know, with this Wrongful Conviction series, we're

doing a special edition each week sorry Google backcheck. Each week on the show, we tell an individual story of a person who was wrong with the convicted, sentenced to death, sentence to life in prison, served decades for crimes they didn't commit. So it's it's tragedy and try open every episode.

And now we're doing a special edition Wrongful conviction at the time of COVID, where we have these extraordinary people who survived, Damian Echoles, Amanda Knox and others talking about, you know, the lessons they learned from this extreme isolation and hardship, and how those might apply to people who are suffering now in their own sort of you know, with the walls closing in, you know, And so what do you take away? I mean, what's the lesson for

the rest of us. Obviously none of us are very very few of us are enduring what those folks did, But as you say, there are lessons in there for how to cope with the world that's dramatically changed and maybe most importantly, a world that many people are experiencing, maybe for the first time, this world of isolation. What what have you drawn from them? Well, that's I'm glad you asked. And again the podcast is wrongful conviction, but the you know what they've taught me in these episodes.

We have two out already, um Damian Nichols and Amanda Knox episodes are out, and they talk about the importance of you know, body work, you know, exercise, yoga, They talk about reading, the importance of keeping your mind engaged. I learned from Nick Yaris, whose episode comes out next week, who was on death row for twenty two years. You know, he said to me, I've never heard it this way, but he said, you know, we read two hundred books worth of words each year, but we don't read books

as generally speaking. Right. He said, there's so many wonderful books you can read, and that's what got him through and turned him around in prison, was reading some of the great books. So Davian Ecoles, you know who's against We survived eighteen years on death row in Arkansas. He talks about keeping a sense of humor through all of this, and he even talks about some some moments that he found a reason to smile on death row, which sounds insane,

but it's not when you hear him tell it. You know, one of the things that we wanted to ask you because we've been doing the stories, um, Jason, not the stories, it's reality of the prisons and the prisoners. You know, with AMID, the COVID nineteen outbreak and the you know, we're seeing high levels of outbreak at these prisons and so on. You know, I'm just curious if you've been talking with folks you know on the inside, and what you're hearing about, you know how they're dealing with this.

I have been, and you know, it's it's it's really, it's an impossible nightmare to even for those of us out here. Do you even try to understand. I mean, there is no such thing as social distancing in prison. A lot of the prisons in America are dorm style environments where the people are are right next to each other, right on top of each other in bunks um. There are there are cells that have multiple people in them.

Of course, our local jails have crowded, you know, tiny cells where everyone sharing one toilet and people are sharing you know everything. I mean in Sing Sing recently, the first guy that died at Sing Sing was a guy who was in the law library every day using the typewriter. So everyone else that used the typewriter is kind from

my Let's not forget that. You know, the guards are suffering as well, right, and this is something we and and on the top of that, we have to talk about the fact that there's eleven there are eleven million people going in and out of our jails prisons every year, and so we cannot control this virus in a free environment and in free society if we don't decarceerrate, because with that much churn going back and forth, and with all the people, all the civilians besides the guards, they

go in and out of the prisons every day, the you know, religious people of the you know, the pastors or whatever. You might have people who are different kind of workers that go in and out. You know, they all go back to the community and they bring it in with them where they bring it out with him.

It's it's a nightmare. So I think now is the moment for us all to take a hard, hard look and take bold, decisive action to decarceerrate and to you know, end this national nightmare, this disastrous, failed social policy of mass incarceration. There's no reason for it. That's Jason Flam the founder and c of Lava Records. He's also a founding board member of The Innocence Project. He's host of

the hit podcast Wrongful Conviction. He what really struck with me, I gotta say, Jason, is his reminding us that we've got to end that policy of mass incarceration. Just talking about the prison community, how they too are really unfairly

and disproportionately being impacted by the virus. Yeah, I was really looking forward to this because, in addition to him writing Lulu is a Rhinoceros, you had talked so much about him, and the conversation you had and really a deep conversation in a lot of ways toward the end of our show one day really stuck with me afterwards. Well, that wraps up the first hour the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. I'm Jason Kelly and

I'm Carol Mass. Are plenty coming up in our next hour, including a conversation with the CEO of the Pittsburgh International Airport, Christina Kusodas. Fascinating conversation about obviously their air traffic is way down, and her thoughts on what life it's like after the virus when it comes to the airport and airline communities. Plus take a deep breath, We caught up with the CEO and the co founder of the wellness

app Headspace. He put a lot of this in perspective, talked about his business and how it's really become mainstream. Plus the man himself, Carol Paul Krugman. Yeah, he argues that the next round of stimulus. We've got to think about those states and cities. It's crucial to getting the economy back on track. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Hello. I'm Carol Masser

and I'm Jason Kelly. Today we're bringing you some of the most important, we hope informative and helpful conversations we had on our Bloomberg Business Week daily radio show about the coronavirus, it's impact, and insights from leaders, executives, and big thinkers, all of it happening in real time as news continued to cross the Bloomberg terminal. Jason, We're going to hear from the CEO of Pittsburgh International Airport, Christina Cusodas.

It was named one of the world's most innovative companies this year by Fast Company. We're else going to hear from Richard Pearson. He's the CEO of the wellness app Headspace. You and I both use it, full disclosure. It was cool to catch up with him and then know about laureate Paul Krugman. Alright, first up, we take you inside the magazine look at how America needs real time data

to get through this health crisis. We spoke to Bloomberg Business we get it, or Joe Weber and Bloomberg News senior trade reporters showing down on his story in the magazine this week. You look out there, and we look at this great, big economy that we've got, and you're trying to reach for some data to show you what's

happening in there. And the reality is, you look at the normal economic data that we rely on, the non farm payrolls, the inflation data, all of that stuff, and it's just not telling us what we need to know right now, because this thing is just moving too fast, and that tells us something bigger. Here. We have, you know, ostensibly the biggest economic crisis of our lifetime, and yet the data we rely on to measure the economy isn't keeping up well. Something new. I love this line in

your story. Peering into our future my be easier if we knew with certainty what happened in our immediate past. I mean to get an idea. This is what Jason and I talk about so much, and I'm assuming you know Joel and your team. It's like, what does life look like post COVID nineteen? But unless we can kind

of trust the data that we're dealing with now. We really don't know, right, Sean, And we don't have the data yet on on our media past, a lot of our media past that first quarter GDP, those three months to March. The first reading we're going to get over that is April nine. The data, you know, the one that we really care about. That the second quarter that we're in now where most economists agree the big downturn is happening. We're not going to get that until the

end of July, all right. So this is such a great read in part because there are some history lessons in here, some callbacks the McNamara fallacy tell us about that shown right. So, there was this grim bit of data that the American military operated, it really planned the war around in Vietnam for for years, and that was

body count. Literally from the ground on up. They were reporting the number of enemy combatants killed on a daily basis, and commanders back in Washington we're using that to assess how the war was going. The problem was is that you've got some really perverse and incentives in the system.

There where uh commanders on the ground whose careers depended on this data, were inflating the data and reporting that back up all the way to Robert McNamara UH, who was then leading the war effort in the Kennedy administration, and UM, he was looking at these daily body counts thinking the war was going great for years, that the US was winning, when in fact it was losing quite

heavily on the ground. The McNamara fallacy is what came out of that, And that is what happens when policymakers in particular, but it could be investors, quants, it could be UH, politicians, business leaders, CEOs when they have their nose in the data and they ignore what is going on in the world around them, and that leads to just some really bad choices and some big mistakes. And so that's you know, that's the downside of data. Right now,

we don't have the data we need. At the same time, we can all look out into the world and know that things are not going well. So do we need to think please Well, I was just gonna say, you know, like there we're not totally driving blind here and that there are places that you know, the Federal Reserve and the GDP now index, Shaun is one way that we

have attempted that. Economics has attempted to kind of put its pools on them now and that has its limitations, right, So so what we're what we're starting to do now and you're seeing it in in a lot of the alternative pieces of data that we're all looking at. People were looking at open table bookings there for a while at the beginning of this crisis. Is that collapse uh in in reservations through that booking app h reservations at restaurants that that happened in cities as the shutdown orders

went through. We've been looking at t s A security clearance data to show the number of air travelers. We're looking at traffic data, electricity usage data, all of that stuff. But all of that is is kind of partial. It's not necessarily reliable. And while the Federal Reserve and a number of the regional feds have put together uh these efforts to try and measure short term GDP, and the Atlanta Fed does this, the New York Fed is is played with this, the Filly Fed has played with it

as well. Um, none of those things are really reliable enough to count on yet, So we need that data. We're looking for that high frequency data, but we don't yet have that magic data that we need. What makes me nervous is not having that magic data, is that here we have policymakers trying to figure out what's the right steps to take. We're gonna be talking with Paul Krugman and get who take on this um a little

bit later on our broadcast. But I do under Sean like, if we don't have that magic data, might we be taking the wrong policy steps right now that will hurt us later on. That's absolutely the risk. We really don't yet know where the damage is in this economy, the U. S economy right now, and that means you can't necessarily target the policy response to the right areas. And that's something uh that we're gonna be adjusting where that policymakers are going to be adjusting, uh or in dealing with

a lot in the months to come. And that's Sean Donna Bloomberg, new senior trade reporter, and Joel Webber, the editor of the magazine. I love me some Shan Don, and just because he is so smart about blending the data side but also the anecdotal side, weaving it all together. Because yes, the numbers tell you a certain amount, but

also the implications of those numbers. They're massive, Carol, a timely story, right, and in a week where we had what point five million jobs vanishing in five weeks because of the lockdown, the latest data showing that, you know, our country has put faith in statistics, but the numbers, as Shaun writes and reports, maybe failing us this time. And it's really important because we've got to get the

right policy to get the economy back on track. You're listening to Bloomberg this week, coming up economist, New York Times columnists and Nobel Laureate Paul Krugman. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and

Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. We're bringing you some of the most important and informative conversations that we had throughout the week on our daily radio show, all about the virus, Jason, increasingly about how do we treat it and increasingly also what does life look like after the virus? Right, And we caught up with Nobel Laureate Paul Kruegman. This is someone who just a few weeks ago was in our studio talking about his new book. It was a very

different world. This virus. It was on the horizon, but no one, no one, no one really anticipated what was going to happen. His writing, as always, has been incredib sharp about this, and we dug into some very serious issues. I'm curious, as you have watched policies unfold from the government, are they the right ones and what's needed to kind of maintain the economy as much as they can right now and help us when we get on the other side. Okay,

the this program that just got some additional funding. So far, it has not worked particularly well. A lot of the money has gone to businesses that don't need it. But you know that doesn't worry That's that's actually, in some

way the least bad part of what's happening. Um. The two things that worry me a lot are still we have had no significant relief for state and local governments, and those governments have to balance their budgets and they're on the front lines, and it's gonna they're even in pure economic terms, they're going to be forced into austerity measures that are going to extend this slump long after the virus has let up. Um. And the other thing

is unemployment benefits. Um, we have a on paper, we have a really good plan that gives people a lot of of compensation, but it's being run through state unemployment offices which have been totally overwhelmed. So the last number I saw it was in Florida. Uh, you know, only one person in eight who has been approved for unemployment has actually benefits, has actually received any money. So um, So we're falling down enormously on the implementation on the

unemployment benefits. So if you take it all together, what we have is, you know, we've had kind of the right ideas and how to deal with this, but we've fallen down enormously that the money is just not flowing on our sufficient scale to deal with the magnitude of

this catastrophe. And Paul, when it comes to execution it, it feels like one of the raging debates that that it seems like we're we're having, maybe unwittingly or maybe very wittingly, is between the power of the federal government, the responsibility of the federal government, and the responsibility and the role of state and local governments. How did we get here and where do you think it goes from here? In terms of that breakdown. Well, you know, we have

a federal system, which does sometimes cause problems. I mean, and you know in Britain there's no question there's there's a government and and I mean there are local authorities, but effectively it's it's centralized. But um we've have we liied way too much on state and local initiative, um um in situations where they just don't have the resources.

So I've been looking on the unemployment front, and I'm looking at Canada, which also has a federal system with very strong provinces, but they have unemployment benefits scheme which is not too different from ours, except the federal government set up a portal and a hotline and people in Canada are getting their emergency unemployment benefits within days, whereas

we are still, you know, immensely backlogged. So uh why I think it's you could you can understand the political history that got us at this point, but this is a point where we we should have a take charge federal government in terms of of getting that money to people who needed and we don't. Well, and Paul, you

mentioned this at the outset. You know, part of the execution has been that the money may not be going to the right places, and and it calls to mind something I know you've been looking at and certainly we've been talking about, which is the inequalities that are really being exposed, many inequalities candidly that you've been writing about

four years and years by this crisis. You know, you think about the restaurant industry, You think about frontline workers, You think about the fact that folks like us candidly we have the ability to do our jobs from home. There are many who don't. What do we need to do. What can we do in the short term to try and alleviate some of that huge structural problem. Well, again, I think the the interesting thing about this one is that this is uh, for once, it's not a problem

of low wages. It's a problem of no wages. We're having a problem with people are just losing jobs and uh, we're probably uh it's going to be probably twenty five million or more jobs at least lost. Um and we can rush aid now. The the Cares Act, that big two trillion dollar bill did uh not only enhance on employment bed it's what expanded the scope, which is the right thing to do. The trouble is as far as I can tell, almost nobody has received those benefits yet.

I mean it expanded it to give book as contractors self employed. But but the state offices UH can't even deal with the backlog of conventional unemployments insurance claims. So that's what we What we we need is is need to be getting income out to lots of people. I would say that that is um, this is a case where it's not hard to determine who who needs aid. You know, sometimes you can worry about it. This is an administratively complicated It's not now, it's really it. Uh.

And particularly since since it's such an emergency. UH, if a few a few undeserving people get some money, who cares? The important point is it's the tens of millions of people who are suffering. So but and we should take lessons. I mean, this will this is not going to be the last crisis we face. I am curious what your perspective is to Like, we have a headline crossing United Airlines said to offer shares fifty and they're offering up over thirty nine million shares. I mean they're looking to

raise money, we get it. What is the balance between helping big companies as well as small companies, but big companies in particular, who do employ thousands and hundreds of thousands and millions of workers around the country. What's what's the balance between helping them out, which is kind of big bailouts, you know, versus helping you know, individuals. What is what is the how do you see from an economic point of view, what's the balance about what we need to do or do we need to be all

in on all of it? Well, we need to be all in with the caveat that we shouldn't in the business of wrestling um stockholders particularly, I mean this is uh the uh famous for romi corporations are people and my friend but he but he actually meant was that they employee people, and their employees are absolutely just because someone happens to work for a big company doesn't mean that they're less deserving of help than someone who's working

for a small company. But but we want that to be bailouts that that uh, where the taxpayers aren't aren't bailing out wealthy individuals who who are who are in you know, stockholders And that's kind of as Paul Krugman, we were looking forward to this as anyone would. He's so smart and on point, not shy, Carol, and really assessing the way that this response has been handled so far and maybe what we need going forward, especially when

it comes to employment. And what I love about him, you know, he's City University of New York professor of economics, but he's written several books, many books, I think over thirty. His latest book is called Arguing with Zombies, Economics, Politics, and the Fight for a Better Future. And what we love about him, Jason, is he does bring in everything economics, politics, who looks at the world with a really big perspective and tries to figure out, okay, what's best for everybody

moving forward. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Coming up the CEO of Pittsburgh International Airport. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. Well, today we're bringing you some of the most important, we hope informative conversations we had on our daily Bloomberg Business Week radio show all about

the virus. That's all anyone is really talking about. We're trying to bring you some holistic conversations looking at this story from lots of different angles. One of the industries, of course, impacted severely by the virus is the airline industry, and of course that includes airports. And for a view on that, we caught up with Christina Kusoda. She's the CEO of Pittsburgh International Airport, named one of the world's most Innovative companies this year by company. Passengers are way down.

All of our numbers are way down, whether we look at T s A, boardings, baggage, concession, sales, taxi or uber lift transactions, parking revenue, all of that is down by But what is I know, like shocking, right, It's just it's empty in our terminals and our parking lots everywhere. But what is going on is that we have two military bases here, the air National Guard and the Pennsylvania National Guard Air Force Reserve, excuse me, in the Pennsylvania

National Guard. We've got cargo flights with a whole lot of e commerce going on, cargo flights in and out. And we do have passengers. There may be only four hundred a day instead of fourteen thousand, but we do have passengers and crews going through and a whole lot of frontline staff two hundred and seventeen a day keeping this place running. We're talking without Christina Krystota's CEO Pittsburgh International Airport. So Christina, so okay, so you have activity

going on. You're hearing about people in different cities talking about reopening. I mean, what does that look like in your view? What it looks like is that there will be a whole lot of businesses that are closed today that will reopen. We never closed, and so what it looks like to us is that more of the same until people feel comfortable traveling again. We don't expect to see a dramatic increase in the number of folks coming

through the airport. So the industry, I was just listening to some of the reports that you were issuing about what's happening with the airlines and stocks and earnings and outlooks, and it's you know, it's a tough time right now for the entire travel ecosystem. So I think that we're going to be coming back slowly, whether things are formally

reopened or just um doing what they're doing today. So Christina, let's talk about the airlines, because obviously there are a critical part of your ecosystem there, and the airport doesn't really work unless you have airplanes coming in and out. What can you or should you be doing for them and vice versa so that you all can sort of survive on the other side of this, Well, I think that the vice versa is critical, so we can't exist without them, and I promise they can't exist without us.

So right, well, sometimes you know that's that's not something that everybody remembers. But right now what we're doing is we have offered our air field to park planes. Right this is a big deal. As you've as you've got to put a fleet down on the ground, you've got to find places where you can park it safely and securely. And we have a maintenance space here. American Airlines to

the maintenance space here at Pittsburgh International. So we had seen up to a hundred aircraft parked out on our airfield at one time, and that's one of the ways

that we're making a difference. Uh. The other is that we're working closely with our airline partners to make sure that we are consolidating our operations on as few concourses as possible so we can shut down the others saving on utility costs, letting them know what we're doing in order to reduced costs as they go through their balance sheets and look at you know, O and M costs, etcetera. We're doing the same. So it's really that's what we're

doing in a short term and long term. I think we've got to work together to figure out how do we restore confidence in the industry as the whole. That's what I wanted to ask you because Fast Company and one of the reasons they named you as being so innovative the airport is you guys have figured out how to make travel easier for people with disabilities, and whether

it's a blind traveler or some other disability. So what what does that look like when you think about how innovation might impact airports and travel so that it can make it safer and more secure and and and bring back more people. What does that involve? What kind of innovation might we see, what kind of technology might be

involved to make that happen. So we're going to be we have a couple of things that we're working on and we'll actually be coming out with publicly within the next week or two with some robotics companies here in Pittsburgh. Pittsburgh is the center for robotics and artificial intelligence really globally, and we're really lucky to have some world leading companies yeah. Yeah, and spin offs from Carnegie mail in and companies that

have Carnegie if the name. So we have been working with them really for the last couple of weeks to look at ways that we can boost confidence in the industry. And and that's what's coming out soon. I don't want to talk about it yet, but we're very focused on this, looking at what we can do as an airport, but also in order to aid the airlines as part of that from our facility, uh, and how that might be able to be applied to the ecosystem globally. And that's

Christina Casoda. She's the City of Pittsburgh International Airport. You know. I love that we caught up with a regional airport. They've got a lot of activity. They still have some some business going on right moving around, um, some of the cargo planes, but of course business is way down. But um. Really interesting to see what she thinks life will be like at airports once we get through the virus. Yeah. She was really a straight talker, which I appreciated, and

she's clearly working it. We're looking forward to catching up with her in the not too distant future because she's got some things going on with some of her local partners that really could change the game. And you wonder if those sorts of things will be implemented at airports around the world. You're listening to Bloomberg busin week. Coming up, how to keep your mind at ease, or at least

trying to during this period of isolation. We're gonna hear from the CEO of a well known wellness app, Headspace. This is Bloomberg. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Jason Kelly from Bloomberg Radio. We're bringing you some of the most important and informative conversations we had throughout the week on our daily radio show. Of course, all of it Jason dealing with the virus covering so many different industries, and one of them included something that

we were really looking forward to all week. This is something that you and I both use full disclosure. It's Headspace well known to so many people out there. I would bet lots of you have it on your phone, you utilize it. Richard Pearson, he's the co founder and the CEO of that app, and they are having not surprisingly, quite a moment. I think that this situation has brought to the surface a lot of the mental health issues that I think maybe sitting under the surface that maybe

we're unaddressed. And I think when you are forced into a situation where you it's much harder to you know, partake in all the normal's distractions that we that we that we kind of do as human beings, I think it brings these things and makes them kind of more acute. And so I think for the first time in a long time, we are actually looking at the state of our mind and you know, for some of us, is incredibly challenging. UM So, I think that you know, things

that we're hearing from folks with a few things. I think one, I'm not sure that mental health was a topic that was being discussed in every single boardroom. Um. I think it's being discussed in every single boardroom now. I think we're definitely seeing um you know, and we've seen that we've had like up too increased in terms of enterprise inquiries for our kind of b to be offering.

So we are definitely seeing an increased there um where I think the other piece that's come you know, that comes to us is a lot around parenting and kids at home. I think people are really struggling with how do they balance work life and and kind of raising children at home is a really really tricky thing for folks, and they'd like two big things that are definitely coming towards us as we're seeing this crisis unfold. Totally agree.

I feel like it's another one of those situations where we know the stuff is out there, and yet it's not until we have a crisis to people like, wow, this is a problem. One thing I want to get too rich. I have a sister who's worked in the mental health profession for years and has just talked about how it's taken even the medical community and even like health insurance a long time to respect that mental health and a healthy mental health is as important as you know,

your physical and medical well being. Um, yes, are we seeing that change significantly? Will something like COVID nineteen help even move the needle on that one even more? Yeah? I absolutely think it's accelerated our kind of belief that we've had that you know, we've always believed that mental health is the kind of UM. You know, it is inextrictly linked from physical health, and I think even if you look at all the research around stress related chronic diseases,

that you cannot separate out the two. It's it really is kind of whole personal health, not just physical health. So I think we're definitely going to see an acceleration towards people understanding that looking after the health of your mind, we believe is actually the most precious resource UM and

we think of it as your hard drive. You know, if if your mind is not healthy, how can you actually make healthy choices, the things that you eat, the exercise you take, the relationships that you have, how you sleep. It really is the core component of living a healthy and balanced life. And I think it's been able to be pushed to the on the back burner, and some people have been open to it, and obviously some people are way out in front when I think of certain

organizations and healthcare systems. But I think this crisis has made it top of everyone's agenda because everyone's dealing with it in real time. So I absolutely believe that this is going to shift the whole conversation and this next wave of um of kind of looking for ways that we can support people with their mental health because we cannot train enough doctors. You know, you've mentioned your system.

We cannot train enough people um at one on one like we're going to have to think of scalable ways that we can we can solve these issues respects where I think platforms like so like yours are like play right to that. Yeah, exactly. Mean you give us a

perfect bridge to to talk about headspace. I mean when you think about folks who were ahead of it and out there, I mean you and Anti founded this, Anti puddycumb whose voice has been in my head many many, many many times, uh founded this in you were out ahead of this. What have you learned, especially that you're applying now over those years, over those ten years or so, that that might be useful to to folks listening right now. Yeah.

I think one of the things is, you know, where for folks to ask themselves the question of where do they prioritize their mental health? Like what do they actually do for their mind? Um? You know, we spend a lot of time looking after our physical appearance and other things in life, but how much time do we actually

spend looking after our most pretty depressions resource. I think that's an interesting question for all of us to ask, UM, And then you know, I would be I would be biased, But I do think that, UM, you know, a mindfulness practice. However you apply that, whether that's with a seated meditation practice, whether that's applying it to the way that you run,

whether it's applying it the way that you eat. UM. I think there's so many different ways that you can apply mindfulness in your life, and the biggest benefit of that it gives you a different relationship with your thoughts and your emotions. And if we think about stress, most of our stress is caused by our thoughts and our emotions. And it's not to say that thoughts and emotions are

necessarily bad. But if we can practice a technique, my meditation on mindfulness, we can actually create some distance between those thoughts and those emotions and therefore not get so swept up in them as as they occur. And I think that that process is is one of the most valuable things that you can do for your ongoing mental health. And to not to look at it is I think so many people think about it right, I get really really stressed and I do a little exercise and I

won't feel so stressed. More like an aspirin um. But if we can actually think about it as as a kind of a vitamin or vitamins, as you say in America, that we can get to prevention. You know, you could think about doing this thing. You's go to the gym. One you're not going to get fit. Our guest at this hour is Rich Pearson, co founder and chief executive officer of Headspace, joining us on the phone from Santa Monica.

You know it's any I can't even tell you, Rich, the conversation that was going with our team here at Bloomberg Business Week, our technical staff, our producers, stuff are like are you on this app? Are you on this app? There's a lot of apps out there, and I think that alone can be stressful and overwhelming about like kind of figuring how do you create a meditation practice? You know that's calming and you don't feel overwhelmed like I gotta do this, I gotta do this. What would you

suggest to somebody who's feeling stressed out? How should they approach it? I think the worst thing that connassement is anyone trying to do at the meditation practice to feel like another thing on your to do list that you never get to, which I think for a lot of people that kind of feels like that. And so I really think, like with any habit, you should start off little and often UM. And I think even if you just commit to a few times a week as little

as three minutes, and build up from there. You know, I always think it's like the good analogies like the marathon. If you've never run before, you wouldn't go and run a marathon like as your first running experience, and I think you've got to think about that in the same way with meditation UM. I think another really good tip is to UM to attach it to a habit that

you already have. So maybe you want to do it just before you go to bed, or maybe you want to do it after you have your morning coffee or before you have your shower, but trying to attach it to the habit that you already have, because it's much easier to kind of couple it UM in that way, and also just not to put too much pressure on yourself.

I think the real the big misconception, and this is probably the biggest thing that I could say to anyone is that meditation is not about stopping your thoughts UM, And it's not about having a calm and relaxed UM kind of benefit from it. That may be a side effect of the practice, but I think so many people go in with that expectation. UM. I promise you if we could have learned how to stop off the thoughts, we'd have done it by ourselves a long time ago. And so it really is a process of having a

different relationship with your thoughts. It's not about stopping them. And because people have those pre perpections about what it is, when that doesn't happen, they give up and they say it's stressful and it doesn't work. So that would be the biggest thing that I could say to anyone. It's not about stopping thought and it's not about feeling relaxed and calm. That may happen, but that's not what you

should go into it with. And so Rich, you know, one of the interesting things that's happened of late, And maybe it's in part because of the crisis, as Carol pointed out earlier in the conversation, uh, and maybe it's part of the work that you and others have been doing,

and I believe that to be true. The idea of meditation has come much deeper into the mainstream, and it feels like it has allowed you guys, as a business, ultimately we are Bloomberg here to really expand some partnerships and maybe uh set up some relationships with people who otherwise, I mean talking about governments and other folks who maybe ten or fifteen years ago would be like, Okay, thanks a lot weirdos, but we got this um but you know, tell us about some of the some of the stuff

you're doing. Yeah, well, people always responded to us like that in the early days, I can assure you they definitely thought we were stranger and we talked about this idea.

But yeah, that's definitely shifted. I think the fact that you know, Governor rang us up, that Michigan rang us up, and I think the reason that that that happened and we partnered with New York and Michigan and we've got some more coming down the pipeline as well some other big partnerships with government is because of the science and the efficacy of it. You know, we've been we're the only mental health digital mental health product out there with

the volume of research. We have over sixty five papers currently in process, twenty of which have been published proving that Headspace can reduce aggression, increased compassion, reduced stress, increased focus, reduced job burnout in in um in kind of approved journals. And that's Headspace. CEO Richard Pearson joining us from California. He is English, as his his co founder. His co founder Andy Puttycomb, is a voice you and I've heard in our ears many many times, so it was interesting

to get his perspective. Also, the sort of mainstreaming of something that a few years ago was a little woo woo, let's be honest a little well, what's interesting to you? And what really I took away from it the reminder that meditation, you know, it's not about being relaxed or

being calm. It's not about stopping your thoughts. It's about having a different relationship with your thoughts, which I think at this time, at this crisis, is something that a lot of people really need and could help them out. And that wraps up the weekend edition of Bloomberg Business Week from Bloomberg Radio. Thanks for joining us. Stay safe everyone,

I'm Carol Masser and I'm Jason Kelly. Be shure to tune into Bloomberg Business Week Radio Live Money through Friday, starting at two pm Wall Street Time, And if you can't catch us live, get our daily podcast wherever you download your podcast. You can also watch the show live on YouTube. Just go there and search for Bloomberg Global News. We'll be back next week at the same time. This is Bloomberg