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Bitcoin rallying past eighty six thousand dollars for the first time ever, boosted by President elect Donald Trump's embrace of digital assets and the prospect of a Congress featuring a pro crypto lawmakers. For more on the trade, we're joined by Mike Reagan. He's a senior editor for Bloomberg News. He joins us here in the Bloomberg BusinessWeek Studio. Help us make sense of the optimism here. Why exactly are bowls so excited? Well, I think you started out it
with the Trump victory. If you go back to July, when Trump really was front and center in the crypto world.
He spoke at the Bitcoin twenty four conference, and he made a lot of promises to the crypto community. But to me, the most important one is he has plans for what he calls a strategic stockpile of.
Bitcoin, like a strategic oil reserve.
Yeah, yeah, and you know, and the US does have other sort of strategic reserves, you know, they for different commodities. Over the year, I think, you know, no one expected we'd ever be talking about a strategic reserve of bitcoin.
But in this political environment, I mean, you look.
At the money that was spent by the crypto lobby. They're super pac called fair Shake, you know, something like a one hundred and thirty million on congressional races, and they managed to elect pretty much most off not all, the candidates they wanted by.
Using messaging that was not at all related to crypto.
We should not, right, right, But it's that money.
You know, if you put that target money into certain congressional senate elections.
It can have a big effect.
So the political mood for being sort of tai crypto at all right now is not very high after that election. Now that you know, the question is what does he mean by this bitcoin reserve. He the day before Trump spoke, RFK Junior spoke and said, oh, I heard Trump's going to announce a plan to buy a million bitcoin for this reserve. Now put that into perspective, that's eighty five billion dollars.
Worth of bitcoin at this at this price point.
And Cynthia Loomis, the Senator from Wyoming, actually spoke after Trump.
Now Trump fell short of that promise at.
His speech to the Bitcoin Convention, but Sithony Loomis, the Senator from Wyoming, came after him and was basically presenting a draft of a bill that she had to do exactly that by one million bitcoins. So you know, the question I think that's lingering over this market right now is will that really happen?
Is there really enough.
Support in Congress for spending eighty five billion at these prices tomorrow could be ninety billion, one hundred billion depending on where these prices go over the next few years to buy crypto because if you know, if the market knows that the government's coming to buy, well, you know, the sky's the limit for the price. So, you know, will Congress really, you know, are they influenced enough by this crypto lobby to actually go for that? I think
is the big question hanging over this rally. But you know, clearly there's a runway of time before Trump comes in and before we really get a sense of his priorities where this is sort of the driving theme and it's almost impossible to find someone who's bearish on bitcoin and crypto in general because of this sort of enthusiasm from the next administration towards crypto.
What about not just enthusiasm, but how much do we know about whether the new administration is actually going to provide a regulatory framework more than what we already have in the crypto industry and kind of promote bringing the crypto industry into the US. How much of the optimism and Bigot's price is kind of reflect.
Now there's certainly some of that too, you know.
I mean, Trump has promised to fire Gary Gensler and appoint crypto friendly regulators.
Now it's an open question.
A lot of legal experts think he doesn't have the power to actually just fired Againstler, but he certainly, you know, can exert his as much influence as he can to try to get him to quit or whatever.
You know. You know, Trump often deals in sort of.
Actions and activities that don't have a precedent, so it's hard to hard to say exactly how far he will push the envelope on that as far as just appointing new regulators. Now, there's any number of crypto bills floating around Congress.
That have just kind of stalled out in the process.
So I think there is a chance that we could see sort of that logjam clear.
Even before the end of the year, there were you know, there was some hope that the stable coin bill is the big one.
You know, the cryptotokens that are worth exactly a dollar. They're very, very important to the market, and you know, there's a bill floating around to sort of set the regulatory guidelines for them. That would kind of be the first one that we would look to happen. But you know, it's kind of a blank slate now as far as what the regulatory environment will look like in the next administration. So it's a great question, and we're just gonna have to stay tuned and see how it all progresses.
I'm wondering what would change the mind in your view of the folks who are so bullish right now. You say, it's difficult to find a bear out there given the way that the scenario has changed just in the last few days.
Yeah.
Yeah, to me, that question of the bitcoin reserve is really the one that's lingering over the market. You know, Trump has a very long agenda of things he wants to accomplish.
Where that sort of.
Making good on the promises to the crypto community, Where that lands on that list of priorities, I think is
the most important thing. If you get into the new year and there's a few weeks months and you don't hear him talking about it, or you know, there's not really much action going on in DC to create this bitcoin reserve, then I think people are going to start questioning, you know that that's a big deliverable to the crypto community from Trump, And I think, you know, he's got some time obviously, you know, he can't do anything until he he's in office and the new Congress is seated.
But where that item lands on the priority list for Trump, I think we'll really determine when and if this market cracks starts to crack.
One thing that's pretty remarkable to me about the election is just how powerful the crypto lobby was. Yeah, in this case, especially in the sense of running programming, running ads that were not at all tied to crypto in order to elect candidates who were pro crypto. Their record is incredible for this past election.
Right right, And they've already started to fund the pack for the mid terms. You know, this lobby, this super Pac fair Shake, It's not going anywhere.
It's incredibly powerful.
I believe I was the biggest source of corporate funding to congressional campaigns in this last election. So, you know, memories are short not everyone you know is really focused on the FTX days and all the blow ups.
That we saw a few years ago.
Yeah, that's what I like.
If something like that happens again, or if consumers are indeed harmed by certain projects that are out there, by certain products that are out there, then does that shift sentiment at all?
I think it could.
Yeah, I think it certainly could. You know, knock on wood.
The last trailing year or so has been as far as crypto projects and exchanges and companies blowing up, it's been pretty smooth sailing. So I think that helps to sort of, you know, create this atmosphere of complacency towards this market that you know has a pretty volatile history, and you know, yes, what could change the price action, that's the thing, you know, it's a it's a very unpredictable market.
I mean, over time it's.
Obviously expanded exponentially, but the price of bitcoin has just been astounding over its history, but not without majors and bear markets in between. So I do think a dip and price could sort of change the sentiment about how laissez faire the government wants to be towards this solassa class for sure.
Mike Reagan, Bloomberg News Senior editor, over on the Crypto Desk. Thanks so much for joining us on Bloomberg BusinessWeek.
You're listening to the Bloomberg Business Week podcast. Catch us live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern. Listen on Apple car Play and and Broun Auto with a Bloomberg Business app, or watch us live on YouTube.
We've been looking forward to our next guest for quite a bit of time. It's because Peter Atwater is a go to for us. He helps us understand how we got to a certain place and also where we're going. He's Adjuncate Professor of Economics at William and Mary. He's also the author of The Confidence Map, Charting a Path from Chaos to Clarity. That book came out last year. He's also President of Financial Insights. It says it uses a confidence driven framework to get perspective on the financial
markets and the economy. Peter, always good to have you join us. I want to use that framework on about confidence to understand what happened in the US last week with the resounding election of Donald Trump. How should we look at confidence as a factor there?
Sure, so, going into the election, I felt that voters were going to select the candidate that addressed the vulnerability that mattered most to them. And that's a very individualized thing. When confidence is low, moreover, it favors the candidate who's not the incumbent. And so I think as a backdrop to what we've seen is this was as much a rejection of the incumbency as it was a mandate for Donald Trump.
But you also write that I mean, typically we usually see I guess that pattern that the incumbent, If people are feeling confident in what the incombinent has done, they vote for the incumbent, and if they don't, they vote
in another way. But just looking at your note that you sent over, it does seem like there were some specific voters, specific types of people who were voting for Trump that had some very I guess particular issues in mind that they brought to the polls that maybe other people were maybe blind to.
Yeah, I mean, you have issues of immigration, you have issues of inflation. On the other hand, you have folks who feel threatened by a lot of the liberal agenda. And so what we have behind this election is an interesting composite whose interests are aligned in getting the incumbent out. And it remains to be seen, in my opinion, whether the cohesion that exists in opposing a single candidate will
be able to be sustained. It feels more like a loose cooperative than it does necessarily a unified body.
Well, we do see some unification within the Republican Party right now, at least when it comes to composition in Congress. We spoke to Billy House and Stephen Dennis earlier and they talked about, yes, there is some resistance to Trump within the Republican Party, but few and far between, at least in the House of Representatives, a little bit in the Senate, where you have some senators who actually did vote to impeach the president elect back when he was president.
That said, it does look like Republicans will maintain control of the House of Representatives. How would you advise them over the next two years to latch on to the lack of confidence that Americans expressed at the polls in Democrats to use that to their advantage to actually go through with our policies.
Yeah, I think that we spend a lot of time focused on the left right divide. To me, the greatest issue in the United States to day is the wealth gap between those at the bottom and those at the top.
And so whether I.
Was advising, you know, a second Biden administration or the new Trump administration, this is really a time where attention needs to be paid to those at the bottom in creating a means by which moving up the capital ladder is possible. No.
Sorry, So when you think about who could be the biggest then beneficiaries of a President Trump, who comes to mind, Well.
It depends on your time perspective. I mean, today, what we're seeing is that the market concluding that the biggest beneficiaries will be really part of this broad elon musk pro trate as I call it, where it picks up you know, crypto, it picks up space, tesla, you know, there's a lot that is involved in this broad entourage trade. What concerns me is that between now an inauguration date,
everybody can fantasize about what is likely ahead. The rubber doesn't meet the road until after inauguration date, and so investors need to be careful not to front run to an enormous extreme what they foresee ahead. And from my perspective, that's exactly what's happening right now. Between regulation, taxation, the endorsement of this Elon Musk Trump partnership, their investors are counting on a very clear, unencumbered future ahead.
How much did you see that in play when it comes to prediction markets, because it was astounding seeing how the night of the election, the prediction markets I'm thinking of polymarket had was basically pricing for for Trump to win hours before we saw you know, even I mean.
There were weeks before.
Weeks before, yes, but but but especially on election I too, there was a really big gap between the broader consensus and what prediction markets were saying. I'd love for you, Peter to kind of opine on like how that comes into play and whether you are seeing I guess you know, people who use polymarket are maybe going to be people who are already more pro Trump.
Yeah, I mean, you have a Venn diagram today of crypto gambling sports. There there's a there's a large overlap of participants and more importantly confidence, and so to see that influencing the poly market environment doesn't surprise me.
What I've been.
Watching, actually, to me, was a better leading indicator was the developing coil and test that if you had gone back and looked over the last three years, you've seen this narrowing and narrowing of coil. And these are emotional tugs of war between the bulls and the bear that ultimately, when the rope gets released, the energy that is released
with that moves things to one side. And so ahead of the election, you could see that when Tesla's earning surprised and the stock popped, that the rope was already beginning to let go.
So what could what could actually lead to some sort of pullback? Right now we're seeing really kind of exuberants everywhere, Peter, Yeah, So.
This sort of exuberance dies on exhaustion that everybody who believes in it has committed the maximum amount that they're going to commit. It's also an environment that likes round numbers, So it wouldn't prize me to see if we get you know, a a an ascent to bitcoin one hundred thousand I mean that that feels like a like a
logical next step. Again, remember that this is this is an environment where it is incredibly transparent on X what people are positioned in, where they're going, and you have to believe that institutions and others are now betting on the crowd's bets. And thanks to all of these, you know, fast fashion ETFs, the ability to add extreme leverage into all of that is part of the appeal.
This is this is.
A fast moving gamblers game that is going to draw everybody in before it exhausts.
It's just remarkable too to see it play out in real time on the X platform, which by the way, looks completely different to me now a couple of years later, Peter, than it did before Elon Musk bought it. But that's a conversation for a different day. Peter Atwater, adjunct Professor of Economics at william and Mary, author of the Confidence Map, Charting a Path from Chaos to Clarity, also President of Financial Insights, Joining us this afternoon from Pennsylvania.
This is Bloomberg Business Week.
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I don't know if you saw this earlier, but Amazon is reportedly developing smart eyeglasses to guide its delivery drivers around and within buildings. This according to Reuters, who cited five people familiar with the matter. If these work glasses would navigate drivers on a small embedded screen along routes and at each stop. The ideas that it aims to reduce delivery time.
Think so because you see it in your vision field instead of having a look onto the dashboard of the Trunck Grunder.
Or no, or when you're walking around holding a package, you're like, Okay, this is exactly the house it needs to be delivered to. Kind of a cool little USh for I should note. An Amazon spokesperson told Reuters it is continuously innovating to create an even safer and better delivery experience for its drivers, but it would not compliment comment on its product roadmap.
I want to see, like a prototype, what they would look like.
I think this is a real use case for smart you know, for like the Google last type thing. They've been used for quite a while, they never caught on with consumers. They're trying to make that happen at Snap and at Meta. Still we'll see if it happens, but the industrial use case is certainly interesting. We got with
this Ty Brady, he's chief technologist for robotics at Amazon. Tie, I'm not gonna put you on the spot and ask you to comment about this this report because we already got a comment from an Amazon spokesperson, but it does talk a little bit about innovation happening at Amazon. I know you guys did this interesting survey with MIT on what AI could mean for workers. Before we get to that, just give our viewers our listeners an idea of the role that robotics play right now at Amazon.
Well, first of all, it's a pleasure to be here, and thank you for having me on. I really appreciate it. Boy. I'll tell you the age of physical AI is here and it is really proving useful for our customers. We have our robotic systems inside of our fulfillment centers. We actually just rolled our next generation fulfillment center down in Louisiana, and we're seeing a lot of returns and gains on that.
Is this the Kiva system that Amazon bought over a decade ago.
Wait, it is based on that. That is part of it. What we do is that we have robotics that can move goods, that's part of the Kiva systems, but also robotics to store goods and sort goods and identify all
the various goods. And we have this in this next generation fulfillment center where we have ten times the amount of robotics that we've ever had under one roof, and we're already seeing that we can process those orders twenty five percent faster and also pass along to a lower cost to our customers.
Just proving just so we understand if when when we order something on Amazon using the app or using the browser, does a robot now pick that item at fulfillment center, is it still a human being?
Yeah, it's It's an amazing, amazing series of events that actually happens. When you go on Amazon dot com. You're getting your holiday order redder ready. We of course want to have the world's largest selection of good for our goods for our customers. We want to process that at a low cost and then have the ultimate customer convenience. And robotics is helping all along that way, right people
and machines working together. We have AI systems that source put the right products in the right area so that can be closer to our customers. That helps on our delivery times. We have robots that move safely around people that we inbound those goods into our buildings where can take on more good put more goods in the same footprint as we've had as compared to our manual buildings. We can store of actually forty percent more goods, and then we have robotic systems that help sort and even
package those items for our customers. All this is so that we can just have the ultimate in customer convenience and get the right good to right to the customer's door.
Ty, what is a twenty twenty four robotics system and how is that different than the systems that we saw ten fifteen years ago. I'm just thinking about how I used to watch that show how It's Made, and it would show factories and there were always robots working in the factories and moving things along conveyor belt. So what is so different about the twenty twenty four. Robotics.
That's such a great question. We have really seen just just huge advancements over the last few years when it comes to robotics. This is why we call it physical AI. It's really the embodiment of adaptive behavior in our robotic systems. But our robotics systems shouldn't be viewed as singular and as alone as just machines. Instead, what we do is we build our machines to extend human capability. We build our machines to augment folks to do their jobs better
and create a safer environment for them. We've seen those benefits in the last four years with regards to safety and also in regards to the efficiencies and the productivities. But the big you know, I could talk about more and more of the robotics that we've seen, but we also have to I think the big mindset is when you reframe your relationship with machines people first attitude towards of how we build those machines that allows people to
do more. And now we are upscaling. We put a one point two billion dollars into an upscaling pledge for our employees and then we, as Tim said, We funded this independent study with MIT in order to understand the perception of technology and how people adopt machines and AI into their work environment.
So let's talk a little bit about that, because I think you hit on a really important point here, and it's the idea that and I was kind of joking about this a little while ago. I was like, can can these robots be programmed to love? But the fact is is you do have to be comfortable being around automated things that could look like humanoids, they might not look like humanoid robots. What did you find through this collaboration with MIT about how people want to interact or need.
To learn how to interact with machines.
It was a fascinating study. It was actually groundbreaking. The MIT enlisted to ipsos to survey more than nine thousand people across nine different countries to understand how they perceive technology, because perception is really important to adoption, even to innovation. Right, as I said, we put people at the center of
the robotics universe. We really want to understand how people and they will adopt technologies, and broadly we found the study found that a majority of people see robots having a positive impact on their pay and on their career. And there's three key, three key findings that came along
with that. First of all, if people are asked to work at a higher level and can focus on higher order tasking, then they're more keen to adopt technology and they're more optimistic when it comes to the use of the technology for their own career goals and their own pay. The second is if they felt valued by their employer. Right, So being valued is both are you working in a safe environment and do you have a great benefits in pay?
And then Amazon, we're really proud of the benefits and pay that we offer our employees, and also through automation, we're actually reducing the number of recordable injuries significantly over the past four years. And then the last part is really those that want to learn more and take control of their career. So if they want to learn and
grow in their career, they're more optimistic for technologies. And that was really good good news for us as we put in one point two billion dollars into upskilling our employees.
So they're good signals. But we're not done yet because this is across many many workers, across many industries, and we're going to follow on the study actually a survey of our Amazon employees directly, because we're always interested in the voice of our customer, the voice of our employees, and we always want to make this safe for more productive environment.
What's a takeaway that you had from the survey about how you're going to either design or implement robotics across Amazon, Like, what's one actionable thing you took away from this?
Well, the first action that we had is that we actually want to fund more studies. We want to fund the study, particularly for Amazon employees, so we can hear directly for them of their perception and how robotics is really augmenting and extending the capabilities. So we are voice of the customers our first actual takeaway that we had from the study. The second is really validation of our philosophy that of putting peace people the center of the
robotics universe. Right, It's this validation of augmentation and extension and allowing people to do what they do well, thinking with common sense and reasoning and really understanding the problem at hand. People do this amazingly well. So our job as roboticist is to complement that amazing skill that our employees have that people have with machines that can be
better designed. So very concretely, for example, we have a robot called Proteus that is free roaming inside of our fulfillment centers that moves goods on demand, and it understands where people want to be and people can look at the robot and understand what the intent of that robot is. So its job is to move these vessels of goods to our dock doors safely, and it's fully around people.
Right.
So the concrete actual thing is here is that we are getting this really strong validation that by extending and augmenting here human capability, not only can we more and more productive, but we can also create a safer environment.
We don't have a ton of time left, but I'm curious when you talk to Amazon employees, what are some of the biggest concerns that they have when it comes to robotics in action.
Yeah, well, we always think about the voice of the customer first and foremost. It is one thing in order to do like a robotic system in your lab and convince yourself that it's going to work in the lab. But when we roll out what we call our alpha and beta deployments with our customers. We get first hand their quotes of what is working and what is not working. We should build our machines too that you can reasonably and tangibly use the machine in very intuitive ways.
Right.
You shouldn't have to have eighteen degrees in order to figure out how to use the machines. And we get that feedback quite often to say, it needs to be simpler, it needs to be less complex, and it needs to have the utility in order to extend and complement human creativity.
We're gonna have to We're gonna have to leave it there. Ty, do appreciate you joining us.
Uh.
Ty Brady, chief technologist for robotics over at Amazon, joining us this afternoon from Boston.
Uh, Emily do you? I mean it's this is a real thing.
Is to try to like understand how humans are going to interact with these things, because that changes how we work.
I would be a little afraid of a robot, but if it was doing tasks that I didn't feel like doing, then I would be friends with it.
Then I would really like it do the dishes.
I'd be very nice to it.
Yeah, get that. This is Bloomberg Business Week.
Mac a journal about you.
Let me drive Oh no, no, no, alright, please, I.
Want to.
Good question time.
This is the Drive to the Close commuting well by Don on Bloomberg Radio.
Well look at that, less than twenty minutes to go in until the closing bell. Once again, the equity market is open, bond market not so much.
On this twenty twenty four Veterans Day here in New York.
Emily Grafeo and I right now, we're joined by Greg Halter. He's director of research at the Carnegie Investment Council. For our Drive to the Close. Carnegie has about four billion dollars in assets under management. Greg, good to have you back with us.
How are you.
I'm doing fine and thanks for having me back again.
Yeah, we love it when you join us. Hey, we haven't actually talked to you in quite a bit of time. But the real thing I wanted to ask you about first was the election and if Trump being elected to a second term changes at all your thesis. Look what we've seen with equity markets, we've seen with crypto just in the last four days.
It's pretty remarkable.
It's definitely remarkable.
Although if you look back at history in cases where you have a unified government, one party or the other. The equity markets tend to do well leading up into the inauguration, and we're also in a very good seasonal part of the year, November being I think the best month, So we've got a few good things going for us. Maybe the election there is just I don't want to say just an election, but it kind of fits the
pattern of what we've seen historically. Again, the numbers, there's not that many observations, but the ones that there are generally show positive.
What about when it comes to what you're seeing in the bond markets, I know Tim's head, the pawns.
Are closed except for today today.
But you know, there has been a rise in rates since Trump won the presidency. It reversed a little bit, but overall I've been hearing a lot of people say that Trump's policies are going to reignite inflation and yields are going to go up. What do you make of that?
Well, I think you go back to the couple days before the fifty basis point cut, and that's actually was the low, and we've seen at least on the tenure, probably seventy basis points of increase since then. Drop maybe twenty basis points here recently, So I don't think this is due to the election, this most recent move, and I think it has to do less with inflation and more with the growth expectations.
And maybe the market sniffed this out.
Greg, what do you make of what's going on in crypto? This is not in your notes, so you know you don't write about crypto at all in your notes, But we can't ignore it today. We heard the numbers from Charlie a little earlier, but they're worth repeating. Bitcoin up another nine percent today, eighty seven thousand for the first time ever market top of one point seven trillion dollars. Are traditional investment managers ignoring bitcoin at their peril?
Well, they certainly have if you look at the past ten years with great volatility. But I think what you're seeing now is the potential for less regulation from the new administration, maybe some sort of stockpile of bitcoin by the US potentially maybe some central banks buying there as well. And one point whatever trillion you mentioned is really peanuts relative to the assets of equities and bonds and other areas other investment classes if you will, out there. So
it is small, there's huge potential here. I've heard some talk about ninety thousand as being the next point. We're almost there as of today, so it's definitely been on fire. If you will broke through the level of the seventy thousand or so, and it's been off to the races.
We might get there by the time we're done talking. Given what's happened. Hey, you hit on something really interesting, and I've been thinking a lot about it because a general theme that has emerged is less regulation, less regulation, less regulation, and that's something that Kathy Woods spoke to me about last week. But at the same time, I wonder if there's this balance that may need to be
to exist when it comes to regulation. And yes, investors certainly cheer when regulation kind of loosens, but I think we have to remember that regulations are there for a reason. There's a reason that we're required to wear seatbelts, for example, in cars, and I'm wondering if we get to a point where it's a risk that a lot of regulations get rolled back.
Great question, and I think there's good regulation and there's over regulation. I believe Jamie Diamond mentioned this not too long ago, and hence you've seen the stock price there do very well last week. At what point is the overregulation? That obviously is a point of contention. I think a lot of times you get fiefdoms, governmental fiefdoms or whatever, and there's too many, too many hands in the kitchen, if you will.
You know, look at bank regulation.
You've got OCC and fdi C and the FED and then the States, and there used to be a federalis a bank examinter? And do we need all these entities when they're all protecting the safety and soundness of the banks. Meanwhile, private equity and private loans have really taken over a lot of the work that the banks used to do, so you could see why Jamie Diamond made those comments.
So again, there's good regulation like seat belts, and there's over regulation and where is that?
Obviously that's in the eye of the beholder and the people that run the companies as well. So it's a tough one and obviously they'll be winners and they'll be losers here that remains to be seen for sure.
Greg talk a little bit about the energy sector and what your outlook is for energy, particularly under Trump, because you made a lot of notes in your notes to us on that and I want to hear your thoughts.
Sure. I mean, if you're talking drill, baby, drill, you know, drill, drill, drill. That's good. In terms of production.
We're at thirteen point five million barrels a day, I believe, how much higher can we go? And if we do go higher for both the oil and natural gas, you know, how are you going to handle all this? And actually that could mean lower prices for the price of the commodity, which again is good for the consumer, good for the corporations that are using natural gas and energy for transportation and fuel and so forth and power, but it's not so good for the companies. So again you have these
balancing acts here. And one thing I would say, you know about all this rhetoric, no one really knows how this is going to play out for every action. There's some sort of other side of that which we don't know.
You know.
If anyone thinks they can predict that, I think is pure folly. So we'll just have to see how these things play out. You know, the energy companies have been very good in terms of controlling their spending, their capex and their costs, and it's obviously helped them from the standpoint of cash flows and reducing debt. The stock prices haven't done so well, except for companies like Kinder, Morgan Energy, Transport Texas specific Land.
Those stocks have.
Done fabulous, but that may be more due to the energy needs in this country due to AI and the whole grid and so forth.
So again, there's all kinds of reactions.
That you may not expect and who whatever thought utilities and pipeline companies would be doing as well as they have over the last six months in.
The market, Alter, director of Research at the Carnegie Investment Council, about four billion dollars in assets under management.
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