Bishop T.D. Jakes on Dual Crises

earlier this year. Back then we were talking about education. Bishop Jake's. I don't think any of us could have anticipated what would happen between us seeing you then and talking to you now. First of all, how are you? How are you doing him? At all? This I'm doing real of course, Lilliam. They're eating a storm down here in Texas. But yeah, that's probably been doing pretty well. And thanks for having me back when I'm really honored. Well, tell us about that a little bit if you, if

you don't mind. We've been, you know, talking to so many guests around the world, around the country, though in particular about what they're seeing, especially when it comes to the virus. Tell us about the impact that's having on the communities that you're so familiar with. Well, I can put it this way. In the last two and a half weeks, I haven't had a day go by that I haven't gotten called it somebody done. Uh So, being a pastor, you can get a front row seed at

at the at the final services. And uh so it is disastrous right now. The numbers are really high. The death rates are escalating again, lack of brown communities are disproportionately hit and so that trauma from that hits very strongly. Are my clergy because there are people that we know or related to people that we know, And I literally haven't had a day go by that I haven't gotten

a phone call like that. And so I don't I mean, this is a tough question to answer, I know, but what do you say to people that, Bishop James, I mean, you're having these conversations every day. Is what is your message to to them, especially given exactly what you said that disproportionality here, that this is affecting uh you know, black and brown people at a much much higher rate that that is just inarguable at this moment. I think that we cannot rely on our elected officials to make

the determinations for our health and well being. Given that we're disproportionately affecting, we have to be disproportionately careful. And I've been telling people just too distance the sales, uh to use common sense to avoid close gatherings and celebrations. We have a tendency to think that if we know people well, they ought to be safe to be around.

But that's not true right now, and it's a new normal, and it's requiring a discipline that we're not used to, but it's necessary in order to keep a well being up. And then I've had several people that have contracted and recovered, so you know, on the good side of it, we are seeing some recoveries and some success stories. But I think it is a great deal of apprehension and faces right now as it relates to the blondness of the

follow of this particular pandemic. I do wonder too, how you see it Bishop Jake's, especially since you know Jason and I talk. You know, we're in eighteen nineteen weeks of lockdown. Essentially for the most part, we have been at home almost exclusively. Um as our offices have yet to really reopen here in New York City. Uh, it's

a slow move back. But I do wonder are you a little angry that you know, if there was a lot that we've learned through what happened with the virus on the East Coast that we could not or should should have been smarter as a nation, especially when we know, as you said, those communities that are disproportionately affected. You know that we could have been smarter in slowing the impact, reducing the impact that we're now seeing play out in Texas and other areas, certainly there in the South and

out in the West. I have survived a lot of capacitih exablems to involve with Katrina and and a lot of things. It's hard in real time speed to to really aim at and who their fault and where the place anger? Yes, I'm a little angry. So exactly where all the place of anger? I think is another issue. We would have loved have had stronger national leadership on this issue, and even on the statewide level. I think we could have opened up a lot slower than we did.

But but I couldn't control that. And so in a situation where we can't control the outcomes of the political terrain that we're tracing right now. We have to leave the CEO of us and make the kinds of the seasons that are strong and wise for yourself, even as it relates to children going back to school, You your parents are gonna have to step in and make final decisions because right now there's so many mixed messages nobody

knows exactly what to do. So Bishop Jake's I'm so glad we're getting to talk to you, and and it's overdue, in part because you were one of the first folks I thought of, you know, as we started to go through these last couple of months, and when we saw what happened in Minneapolis and and we saw what that triggered nationally, you were one of the voices that that I want to hear from around all this because I want to understand how you view what has happened since

the killing of George Floyd, the reaction within your community and also the reaction in the broader community across America. You talked to so many people, you know, both in your congregation, but also national leaders, corporate leaders as well, and I wonder what you make of this time we're living in. Uh. It's like reliving a nightmare from the sixties, being my all the sixties that NFL this too, and so you know, it's it's the movie I don't want

to see again. But it's happening in real town and speed. The good side of it is more and more people of that are not of color r king up this issue, and that's a very hardening, encouraging thing to see. UH. There has been some progress made, I call them cosmetic changes in terms of statues being removed. I'm not talking

about violently so, but legally so. And I'm also hardened by the pag that there have been UH CEO that incorporations who have worked hard to correct some of the situations that existed, UH as it relates to the Confederate flag and and and and ge Baba served and things like that. But those are all cosmetic changes. Are nice, they're important, but they're cosmetic changes. The cancer that we still have still exist. UH. And I think that we have to work very hard, UH to to witholve some

of the issues in the criminal justice system. We have to work very hard to get a national database set up for police officers who have had problem problems and other precincts, so that we don't make the mistake of the Catholic Church and moved them from precincted re see like they moved them from Paris to Paris. If we listen in history, we would learn quickly that we have

to do things differently than what we've done before. Uh, and I think that there's a lot to be done in terms of the way the laws are as it relates to immunity right now for police officers, and how we correct that sort of thing that's a deeper cancer issue that needs to be corrected. We have to look at our communities as well, at job opportunities and training

and retraining people to create opportunities. Well, that is something Jason and I've had a lot of conversations around Bishop Jake's about that ultimately, these inequalities they start really early on for individuals. It's a poverty issue, you know, and that we've got to figure out how to change that in our system so that everyone truly has the same access to opportunity. And that means you know, from the minute you're born, and so how do we how do

we really change that? We keep talking en up better education. Well, we've spent a lot of money on education, yet here we are, so how do we really tackle that that problem that starts from in many cases, from the minute somebody is born, and it depends on where you're born, in the color of your skin. We we've spent a lot of money on education, and we've made some in rows in terms of education, but we've got people that

are educated flipping Hamburgers right now. We've got to create opportunities and we've got to hold our corporations accountable to UH diversity and inclusion on every level, not just entry level positions. We need people in high ranking positions that are as diverse of our country is. We need that

in our government. We need that everywhere so that when we sit down at the table to make decisions and the people who are making decisions look like the people who are going to have to live with those decisions. And that's just a wide way of leadership and government and going forward. I think we also have to look at how our studies are constructed, because they were not

constructed in a way to provide commerce into UH. Certain areas and certain sectors are designed in such a way the highway is constructed in such a way that business does it creates down into those that it's been proven statistically, the low income housing group together does not work, and yet we continue down that path rather than mixed income housing. And I think some of it is an economic issues. Some of it is an education issue. But you can be educated and you can be wealthy, and you can

still be shot down by uh police brutality. So it's not all education and it's not all economics. It's it's really a total reform of our system. And I think it's starting to happen. Uh, it just needs to continue to happen. And I'm worried that the conversation gets sade tracked by the vigilantes who take the message into their own hands and misrepresent the heart of what we're trying

to do in our country. Well, and Bishop Jakes, I do want to take you back a little bit to some of those conversations you're having with corporate leaders, because the vast, vast majority of them are clearly white guys, and and that does seem to be, you know, part of the issue that that you and others, and we've had many people in the show talk about that, how do we sort of affect change, whether it's in the

boardroom or at the top executive levels. Are you having those conversations, What advice are you giving companies to start to make that tangible change in leadership levels. They have to be intentional about it. I mean, slavery was intentional, Jim Crow was intentional. Inclusion has to be intentional. It has to be intentional, it has to be comprehensive, and uh, it's not just going to happen organically. We have to be intentional and go out and recruit and recognize that

our companies do not reflect our country. And they have to be very, very intentional about that. And I think where they are having difficulties working together to find people, they have to work with other organizations, churches in a CP people who are on ground level zero, with black and brown people who do have degrees and qualifications and are finding it very difficult to climb the corporate ladder.

Those things, I think have to happen. But beyond that, we have to have something for that blue collar workers from the industrial as technology, we lost a lot of middle middle income people in our communities and we have not rehabilitated that. Let them be fix we need roads, we need a new infrastructure in our city. There's so many and all over the country, there are so many blue collar jobs that need to be done that are underfunded that we're not getting taken care of, that we

really could fix this problem without being intuitious. We have legitimate needs that need to be taken care of that would create upward mobility for all people who may not be degreed but need to be gainfully employed. So where would you start, Oh, gosh, I think everybody has to start where they are. I think it has to be a comprehensive effort. I slove my it is legislation. Some of it here is CEO sitting down and talking outside

of their own circles. For a while, I have been saying, and that's why I started our foundation, so that we could have conversations and so that we could be a conduit to connect corporations with qualified people, whether their entry level people returning cittices, or whether they are upwards, upwardly mobile into higher aelons and organizations. We have access to all of those people out of the thirty million or so people that interact with us on a day to

day basis. Between social media and television. We want to be a bridge to help those things to come to pass. That's why we just did our Steam program during the summer. We had five thousand young people to sign up for our Steam program and was wildly to successful. We're going to be partnered with Microsoft and Texas Instruments to get that done. We're going to go further with that program. We're adding a dynamic for UH Police with the Ballas

Least Department to work with our Steam program. The Ballast Ethnony Orchestra is working with us. If this is a time for collaboration, where what I'm saying is we need to collaborate UH with the multi pronged appoch that includes faith leaders because faith leaders are the gateway to our community, but they also need to include CEOs, elected officials and community leaders. And I think if the four groups sit down at the table, we can lift it up to

the level of plans lard. So, Bishop Jake's before we let you go on out about a minute left, what do we do as individuals just regular old people, you know, just trying to do the right thing and be better amid all this. I think we have to have the courage to talk to people who are different than us and who don't see the world the way we do.

And I think that's something that everybody can do. I think we have to hold our elected officials accountable too, that they have an agenda that includes underserved communities and we have to make that a priority in this election. In anybody who doesn't have a strong agenda and a feasible plan in place that addresses this issue, we should not consider them an eligible candidate. There are other issues to the bits also has to be on the table

as well. But what we can start doing is not allowing the news to tell us about each other, but actually have conversations with people from different walks of life and become involved on a one on one basis. Well, we really appreciate you spending some time with us, a real pleasure for us. Thank you so much. Bishop T. D. Jakes, Chairman of the T. D. Jake's Foundation. Johnius on the phone from Dallas always learned something from him.