Apple’s Car Project Loses Three More Key Engineers

Bloomberg Business Weekend iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com. You can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern Time on the Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg clovel News. Timan I mentioned some of the headlines that are out there. We mentioned the FDA authorizing Fiser's COVID booster for sixteen and seventeen year old some mornings from the New York City mayor build the

Blasio concerned about hospitals. And the thing is, Tim, we know that this variant right is not as virulent, but we are seeing it's more contagious. I want to be careful. We don't know at this point. Okay, folks have told us exactly yeah, and and and indications seemed to be an indications seemed to be pointing in that direction, but it's still we're still at a point from understanding that we're waiting on the data to come in, right we

do any more data, that's a good point. The thing is where are concerned about the stresses on our system, whether it's our medical and healthcare system, which we've definitely seen already around the world. Uh Meantime, we did mention a study showing the omicron variant four time four point two times more transmissible than the delta variant in its early stages. And again that's based on data that we're getting out of South Africa. So let's get to it

with our guest. Dr Cassar to a Lot is with us. She is Associate Professor of International Health. She's gonna expertise and infectious disease and diseases and international health at the Bloomberg School of Public Health, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder of Bloomberg LP and Bloomberg Philanthropies. She joins us on the phone from Tacoma Park, Maryland. Dr to Lot, good to have you here on Bloomberg Radio. How are you very well? Thank you and it's a pasure to

be here. Well, it's great to have you here when you get up in the morning and you want to know what the top headlines are when it comes to the pandemic. What are the things that you're most looking out for. I'm looking for the number of cases, how quickly they're going up or whether they're coming down. Also the number of deaths. UM. I'm looking to see how fast the omicron variant is spreading, UM and how many countries and UM. Also looking to see UM any vaccine news.

So it's very exciting today that the FDA authorized the booster for sixteen and seventeen year olds. So what would you advise sixteen and seventeen year olds who have gotten two shots. Would you say, hey, go out and get a booster as soon as you can. I think it honestly depends on their risks. So if they are living in a state where they because most sixteen and seven two year olds haven't been vaccinated for as long just

because they weren't an initial priority group, UM. So if they were living in a state where they have really high transmission rates and the cases are going up very quickly, UM, and they're going to school there may be going to work, UM. Often they you know, kids are in service jobs where they're forward facing with the public, I would say would

be something to think about. Um, you know, if they are, if they don't have a lot of risk factors, they don't live with somebody who's necessarily I mean compromise, they could probably wait because, um, you know, at sixteen and seventeen, your immune system is amazing, and so they've had a very good response to the original two doses of vaccine. I always wonder too, And maybe because I feel like, you know, for me once, shame on you, for me twice,

shame on me. And I guess I bring that up because you know, if I go back a year ago, I think we all thought we would be. We're in a much better place, no doubt about it. A lot of vaccines have gone out. I'm back at work regularly, so are a lot of my colleagues. Restaurants are open, you can go in and out of stores. But I do think we thought, okay, we would be out of this. Um,

we're learning a hard lesson in real time. What is it What is it that we need to keep in mind about that and maybe what it tells us about our future? UM. I think what we we need to keep in mind is that nobody is safe on tob are all protected, and so we live in a very very connected world. And so until everybody in the world is vaccinated, we're going to keep seeing variance arizing. UM. And so just vaccinating the United States and people in the United States over and over again isn't going to

protect us from the development of these variants. I do want to actually UM caveat something I just said about sixteen and seventeen year old UM. The f d A has authorized the boosters that the CDC has not yet MUTCH recommend them it. So right now I would not recommend that they get it because it's not available to them. UM. But if the CDC advisor Community Aimization Practices meets UM and recommends it, then it would be something to consider. Right.

There's that whole process and and and now we get listen, we get caught up in it too. It's like, wait, it's a great way, no way, because there's there's multiple set as we as we remind everything, it's all happening in front of us. Uh, and we're learning a lot along the way. UM. You know. I guess what's interesting too is I often wonder, I mean, can the can COVID nineteen. Can it just burn itself out? Can it

just die out? I don't think it's going to die out, But what we all hope for is it will eventually become a milder and milder illness as we all acquire immunity, hopefully through vaccination, but unfortunately many people in the world are acquiring immunity through repeated natural infections, and as we can we see in South Africa. You know, natural infection isn't enough to protect you against reinfection with new variants and so um, it's really important to get the vaccine

even if you've had covid um. I think the best we can hope for at this point is that it will become a cold virus. So I wonder, you know, Tim and I were talking as we get into it, that one thing we are different from a year ago or so is certainly at the start of all of this, is we do have vaccines, We do have treatments if you are hospitalized. We have a better understanding, We understand the value of masks and social distancing, so that when there are flare ups, we kind of know what to do.

Having said that shutdowns working from home UM social distancing again, is that something that you think we need to still respect and have as a constructive and productive part of that tool kit. I think, UM, it would be a

last resort. UM. But if we if we go through UM, are you know, if we try to get people vaccinated and we encourage people to wear masks and we still see cases rising out of control and hospitalizations um uh, the hospitals filling up and people UM not being able to access healthcare because there is no space in the hospital for them to be admitted for whatever medical problem there they have. UM. I think then that's something that shut down from UM need to be considered UM. In

order to protect the health of the public. UM. There's so much that we can do to prevent those from happening, and vaccination the number one thing that we can do. Doctors a lot. I want to go back to something that you said earlier, the idea that it must we really vaccinate the world. We're going to continue to see variants emerge. Given you know that what we've seen in the United States, is it kind of unrealistic to think

that we can actually vaccinate the world. And this is going to turn into something like the flu where we see new variants each and every year, and we have to get shots that are tailored towards toward those versions of the flu. We may need to do that, but I think we we vaccinate the world against the whole post of diseases. You know, the vast maturity of people

in the world are vaccinated against these. Granted we do that in children, UM, young children, UM for the most part, but we are increasing our vaccinations for diseases such as HPV that we vaccinate ours. So I think, UM, if there is a will, we can vaccinate the world. It might take a little bit of time. UM, But vaccine manufacturers have the capacity to increase manufay ucturing. They should be sharing this technology with manufacturers and in the lincome

countries that are eager and able to make the vaccines. UM, and we should be able to get vaccines into as many arms as possible. Do you think we could get to a point where this could be the type of vaccine that we could give children and we can actually eradicated in a way that we've only eradicated truly one disease. It's very hard to eradicate a restaurant. Um, it is possible. UM. It takes a tremendous amount. I mean, as we see,

we've only eradicated successfully one human disease completely, smallpox. UM. We're very close on a couple of others. But it's the effort is tremendous. UM. I'm hoping that we get to a point where this is a flu like illness or a cold like virus UM, where it doesn't cause as much severe disease as it is now UM. But that that's going to take time, and it's going to take a concerted political will from everybody to make her that we're all protected. You know. I also do wonder

it's interesting. Earlier today for the Bloomberg Sustainable Business Sumit, I caught up with Sanda O Giambo over at You Not in Nations the Global Compact. She's head of that, and she talked about the importance of it and said, basically, until we are able to get access to vaccines globally, will not ever be able to say we are truly

free your safe from COVID. Having said that, it just reminds me about the importance of global collaboration at a time where we're seeing strained relations between companies, most notably the US and China. Does that worry you going forward?

So I'm not I'm not a political scientist, but yes, I mean every time there are there there is distrust UM, there is going to be a lack of willingness to share information freely across UM borders and it's and for diseases such as UM, for viruses and transmission, it is so important for the information to be shared as quickly as possible so that the world is aware of what's

happen beenning. I mean, South African science should be commended and applauded for sharing that information so quickly to set off the alarm about the omicon variant and and we want to encourage that end. When we have free and open exchange of ideas UM, it makes things much easier, and political stresses can sometimes interfere with that. All right, We're gonna leave it on that note. Thank you so much.

We really appreciate your time today. Dr Kassar to a lot Associate Professor at the Johns Hopkins Bloomberg School of Public Health, of course, supported by Michael R. Bloomberg, founder Bloomberg Bloomberg, ALP and Bloomberg Philanthropy. She's joining us on the phone from Maryland. You know, these conversations every day. I kind of learned something and I feel like we fine tune what we know about the virus that spread

and how to deal with it. And look, this is you know, somebody who's studied uh bola and vaccines and a bolo vaccines and malaria, um vaccines and influenza, and she's optimistic that we could actually vaccine ate the world against this out. No, absolutely, and I think that comparison, that point that she makes when it comes to other things that we have certainly eradicated from the world, it's

a reminder of what we can do. You're listening to Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stinovic on Bloomberg Radio Business Week. The cover story also happens to be among the most read on the Bloomberg Today and Tim, it's also the Bloomberg Big Take it. Yeah, it's all about one vaccine to rule them all. I couldn't help but think of some sort of like you know, Lord of the Rings reference. There is that Lord of the Rings. I don't know, it's one vaccine to rule

them all, wanting to rule them all. It is and uh, the story, though, I think is a little bit more nuanced. That voice that you're hearing is none other than Joel Webber, editor at Bloomberg business Week. He joins us in the Bloomberg Interactive Broker Studio along with Bob Langrath, healthcare reporter for Bloomberg News, also with us in the Bloomberg and Active Broker Studio. Bob's story is the cover of the

new issue of Bloomberg Business Week magazine. It's available on news stands, online, and at Bloomberg dot com Slash business Week. What's interesting about this story, Rate is you talk about this idea for super vaccine to build to really beat Delta, amicron and more. But there's a lot more going on here, Joel, about whether or not indeed it will get done. It's not just a science story or medical story. It's also

an economic story. It's all of that. Um But what we're ultimately talking about here isn't about just a booster or or even anything that's specifically about COVID, although it could solve it with but there is a very very very early science that suggests that we could actually be able to develop something that looks like a pan coronavirus. So that would account for not just COVID, but remember mers, remember stars, Uh, even maybe even the common cold. Um.

And again let me underscore this early science. Uh. And if this plays out a little bit though, knowing what we know now about being able to develop vaccines, it might not be so much that the science would be the thing that would hold us back so much as the economics of it. All Right, So so Bob, take us to Singapore, um where some where the science as

part of the sciences is coming from. Yeah. So we begin the story with a lead of one of the from one of the kind of world's top bat coronavirus exports, a guy named Linfa Wang, and Singapore has been studying bad born viruses for decades and one had led the team that discovered that stars that was at one of the the coronavirus UH deadly chroma virus epidemic and two us in three he discovered that came from bats uh and uh So when the UH the pandemic started to

happen early on, he had this idea that maybe some of these stars survivors and Singapore some kind of special antibodies that they could protect against COVID to look at them.

It turns out they didn't. But then about a year later, you know, those survivors in Singapore, the original stars, you know, started getting UH immunizations for COVID, and he had this idea like, now they've kind of this is this rare window into immune systems have been exposed to these different you know, epidemic strains of coronaviruses, and do they have some special cross reactive anybodies. They looked again, and they did.

They had antibodies of protection against like five different coronaviruses that have never been a humans before. It feels like a holy grail on this. That was the first signs like this sort of thing might be possible. And he and about you know, ten twelve, thirteen other labs and a bunch of smaller biotechs or you know, racing to

work on this. But you know, a long term the key question is if if this continues to look prompting, who's going to put up the money to do it for the big kind of Manhattan project to do it? Fights in Madeia, I don't know so about that. That was part of One of the most interesting parts of the story I thought is that you know, here we are with the omicron variant making its way around the world, and the executives of these companies are being asked, are

you working already on an omicron variant shot? If they're giving some sort of shot every six months to attack a new variant, that's money in their pockets. So incentives aren't necessarily aligned with them creating the shot to end all shots. All right, they have a thing, you know, that works right now, and they've a kind of procedure they know that probably gonna work to make something for a new variant, at least for you know, we don't

know how long these things are gonna work. That's one thing. Then if new variants keep coming, you know, even with m RNA, which is faster than other vaccine technology, you're still scrambling to keep up. You've still gotta know a virus that raises ahead of things. So, you know, so the riskier thing, but it could pay off, would be to put in a lot of money, a big Manhattan style research project by someone to see if this universal thing is really possible. But someone has to put big

bucks behind it. If the research continues to be promising. Well, the other thing here is like there's there's Big Bucks and and there's some of that, right and I h just put some of them in there, But there's even like potentially different technologies, right, Like we've all come to understand the m RNA is one thing, but nanoparticles, Yeah, so that's one of the new tell more. Yeah, i'd

say like the next next generation like vaccines. So the idea behind these nanoparticle vaccines, which is one of the main technologies are pursuing for a kind of pan or coronavirus shots, is that you have a little kind of virus sized particle, it's either some sort of bacterial or kind of artificial protein you could just add on a little different spike proteins or surface proteins from different coronavirus

is kind of all over the top. So so it looks like to the immune system, looks like a virus with pieces of ten different coronaviruses on top, and that in theory might train the immune system to kind of generate cross reactive antibodies against multiple coronaviruses. And that's what they're showing in these lab experiments and area and it's mostly lab experience. There's a few Phase one human trials, but not many. That's what they're showing that may be

happening in some of these early experiments. And yeah, so it's very intriguing. Okay, so slow that down a little bit. It's a completely different technology. It is, some of it is being tested. It's very early. Uh, little dongles hanging off there, like what what how exactly does all of this stuff come together? And if that technology bears out? Yeah,

I'll exactly show your question. But it's basically a little little you know, protein balls to which you can just depend like different spike proteins are literally literally these a little little cages and jeer uh. And there's several other technologies they're pursuing. And then the question we've got to sort through these and you know, see which ones are most promising and to go ahead with on a larger scale. Bob, does the flu vaccines give us any insight into any

of this? That's that's a very good question. So you know, one thing we note in the story is that you know, back on the forties, when you know, at the University of Michigan, Uh, there was a guy named Thomas Francis and his protege you may have heard of him, Jonah Salk. They developed in the first flu vaccines, and early on with the flu vaccine, they thought, hey, these look highly promising.

The results look really really good. Seventy efficacy and oh yeah, there's some variants of the flu, but no problem, we'll gotta handle of on that. By you know, varying the flu from strange from year to year, it was only told decades later. So they realized that the efficacy the flu vaccine can was mediocre. So the flu, you know, provides an example of how hard it is to get a handle and you know, respiratory viruses, what's kind of

annual vaccines. It's a great story. There's so much going on, uh and just to understand how science is moving along on this and an understanding and maybe a breakthrough going down the road. It is the cover story of Bloomberg Business Week. It's the big take. It's among the most read. Bobbling Breath, another great story as we continue to go through this pandemic. All your stuff has always been a must read. Bob blaneg greath healthcare reporter U Bloomberg News.

Here in our Interactive Broker Studio. Jill Webber, Editor Bloomberg Business Week, ME Magazine. He's in the kids chair here in our studio, kids chair in in a in a suit that you know looks really good on a colleague to all right, you're listening to Bloomberg Business Week. This is Bloomberg Radio. This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Masser and Bloomberg Quick Takes Tim Stenovic on Bloomberg Radio. So one of the names that we've been watching today

is Apple again as it continues to grind. It's not really grinding higher today, it's just down about two tens of percent, so we'll change. But we're watching it so closely because it's almost hitting three trillion. Ye right now, it's at two point eight six seven billion to trillion. Excuse me, two point eight six seven. It's been a bit above that. But um, we all are um, let's get to it there because there's some interesting stuff. Are Mark German put out a story about Apple Apparently there

are company's self driving car project, him losing three key engineers. Yeah. So interestingly enough, a lot of those engineers headed to other transportation startups. For this, we bring in Ed Ludlow, West Coast correspondent at Bloomberg News. He joins us now from our Los Angeles bureau in southern California, no longer northern California. It's usually joining us from. And a couple of things stand out to me about this story. One is, you know who who actually left Apple, but but also

where they're going. Let's get to that in just a second. First, what do we know up to now about what Apple's doing when it comes to autos? Well, just retty quick, I mean Carol talking about three trillion, right. The reason that Morgan Stanley raised his price target at the beginning of the week is they said these future endeavors, future products like an Apple car, just aren't priced into the stock.

That's why we're paying such close attention. Right. But this is has been the main podcast story, not what they've done, but the sort of merry go round of executives. You know, their leader on the right radar front has departed for a startup. Radar really important part of the sensor suite

which goes into autonomous technology. And we know from Mark German's fantastic scoop last month that is what Apple wants to do, right, They want to start with a fully autonomous vehicle, not sort of a normal car, and build up to it. What's going on here? Is it just so much competition ed for these individuals as expertise in particular. Yeah, everyone is finding this difficult, first of all, to decide

what the product is. You know, if you think about Cruise, you know, the startup backed by General Motors or Zooks, the self driving arm of Amazon, they have got a very clear model. They're making this shuttle. It has no steering wheel, no pedals, You sit in it, multiple passengers facing each other. It's not a passenger car. Then you look at Weymo. Weymo's model has been to retrofit normal cars, and even though they have a steering wheel and the iron,

you know, take the driver away. And for a long time that's been the story of Apple. They couldn't quite decide what it is they were building toward until last month, of course, when Mark German reported they'd settled on this fully autonomous, no steering wheel, no pedals design and it's basically a passenger shuttle. The question is can Apple achieve that? Right, They're not a car company. Can Apple achieve that with

these relatively high level defections as well. Yeah, it's it's really interesting because in all parts of the electric vehicle industry, which I use as an umbrella, right and thinking of rivians and loosers and testers, all the self driving specialists, the battle for talent is fierce. But it seems with Apple they've brought in some really high profile people and those people haven't lasted very long. You know, Project Titan, you know, the special projects division of Apple has been

working on this since two thousand fourteen. There's been no consistency, and it's in leadership and you know, the high stink profile, and some of that was Doug Field, Right, Doug Field led the project for three is he went to Ford this year to be their sort of chief technologist, which doesn't speak very much to Apple's progress, right, yeah? He Are these folks leaving um Apple? Is it because they can get more money elsewhere? Or is it because there's

still some confusion. Perhaps I'm just throwing out a word in terms of the Apple car project because I feel like we've been talking about Apple Car for a long time. Yes, it's fantastic question. You know, we do have to read between the lines a little bit because Apple is so secretive. That's what Morgan Stanley said in their note One reason the share price doesn't reflect the potential of an Apple car.

We don't know anything about it. But what we do know is that Kevin Lynch, who is kind of the leader of the Apple Watch and health software at Apple, has taken over ownership of this car project. So the departures, you know reading you know, the fantastic bloombed coverage and the names that have come and gone. It seems that with each turn Apple makes in a new direction of what this project actually is, That's where you see people move on. You know, no one doubts Apple software expertise.

I think that universally across Wall Street, across industry experts, people say, yep, Apple can get the software side of this done. What it takes from an AI perspective to

achieve full autonomy? Where are their car expertise? Where are their expertise in the hardware like lidar radar that goes into this project, And that seems to be where there's the highest turnover, and interestingly enough, back to where we started at the high level, relatively high level of defections, they're headed to um flying taxi startups air tax Yeah, yeah, what what is the promise here when it comes to

getting from one place to another? Like an uber with with with air through the air, like an uber for the air. Get ready to cringe, guys, I can already feel your shoulders. This is the most Silicon Valley answer I'll ever give you. But but lots of these people are mission oriented, right, their project oriented. You know, there are people who are fantastically successful at Tesla for example, and moved on one of them moved on to Apple

for example, for example. Many have moved on to Rivian because they take a thrill out of succeeding with the new products bringing it to market. That's one answer, right that they look at a new opportunity and say, I've been an Apple a few years, We've not made progress. I would love and to launch a flying electric taxi air taxi. That's just nuts to say out loud, but it's true. You know, these are engineers with fantastic talent.

There's a point where getting on the moon was considered fantastical and here we you know, look at what we're doing right now. It's pretty remarkable. Ed La Loow, We love you, Ed Laulow's West Coast correspondent AP Bloomberg News got in San Francisco today. He's an l A. That's because he's going to be alive from the port tomorrow Los Angeles and Long Beach, and he's going to bring us the latest on what's going on there? Are we

emptying them? Am? I only get mahmided gifts the way to translation that we get tomorrow that read that could be yeah, but you let me drive. Oh no, no, no no, this is not a toy. All right, I want to try. It's a good question. This is the drive to the clothes on Bloomberg Radio. All right, folks, So just about ten minutes left in today's trading session here on this Thursday, we've been bouncing around here on

the equity average. Is dug breaking it down. We're definitely off our best levels of the day, in particular on the SMP and the nasdacs. They were still lower on the SMP and NAZAK. The Dow though the out performer, and it's just off its highs of the session, but not huge moves. Although techt and beating up a little bit. Yeah, it is a consumer discussionary as well. Thanks to TESLA

being significantly lower. Um, I'm watching the range here because what in the spund at least, yeah, range anxiety, UM, the range of the S As far as where it's traded today, it's relatively narrow. I mean just about trading between you know, up and down six tents of a percent, all negative. But I think the last three days not significant, No, exactly.

We've seen some really big swings in either direction depending on what's going on with COVID, the omicron variant, what the thinking is in terms of market psychology when it comes to the FED, I think it's safe to say that at this point, I mean, the vics though we're seeing a bit of a bump up one point four points higher today one though still low if you think

about it on a historical basis. But I think it's really safe to say that because of the inflation report tomorrow and the FED meeting, we're going to see investors to some extent market time. Why not why not wait to see what kind of clarity we get out of the effect. Well, let's see what kind of clarity we get from Hillary Cramer, President and chief investment Officer at A and G Capital Research. Also the author of Game Change or Investing, How to Profit from Tomorrow's billion dollar trend.

She joins us on the phone from Mexico. Hillary, how are you very good tim n to speak with you today. You're doing better than us Mexico. Well, Mexico was actually very interesting because the labor here is extremely cheap. It's just unbelievable because I've spent a lot of time in Mexico. I was involved with building the Teluco whole road many years ago, and uh, it's kind of shocking. And then I went to Walmart, um and because we had a lost suitcase, and I couldn't get over that. It's much

more expensive than in the United States. And I give Walmart kudos for there. It must be artificial intelligence and they've figured out exactly how to price and so I'm still doing my store checks and still working even down here. That's good to hear. Okay, So, um, hell, you want to get your thoughts on what Carol and I were talking about and trying to make sense of after three day rally. Really what we're seeing today the sp f F F under training and kind of ano range and really

the underperformers, the NAZAC and Russell two thousand. That's right, and it's really uh the what would your thousand? That was just looking really really like getting destroyed. You know, I had to rest bite and it's going down fast. Look, we have a lot of pressures. We have the property situation in China and the and the concern about a default China. Okay, we have the whole issue of let's say software stocks for example, UM that look too already peaks.

We have retailed down eleven percent XR R. Teason's early November, which both is very poorly given that we're in the holidays, and we have all this pressure on the sad. Okay, it's the CPI tomorrow. Is what it's really all about, is we have another hot CPI. The political pressure from the consumer UM puts the seat in a very very

difficult situation. Well, and it's interesting because we just had David Weston catching up with Brian moynahan Bank of America CEO, and he did talk about raining inflation is going to be the hard work. But he also talked about consumer spending. Is that more than vers so that's above pre pandemic levels. The consumers really strong. I scratched my head with so many people, what do we what was the headline, Americans have quit more from April to September of this year,

have just quit the labor force. We're Americans getting this money. It has so much really been saved up during the pandemic because we know those government programs are coming to an end or have come to an end. Well, that's exactly the point, Carol, you really hit on it. Everyone has become and I say everyone, I'm talking about the everyday investor, everyday person has become so used to um the entitlement that that came out of necessity. Of course, I mean that was that was a life favor when

they came, but everyone became used to a certain lifestyle. Uh. And you know, and now give companies that you know right, companies can't fill jobs. They just can't fill jobs. And people aren't going back into the workforce, which is why it circled right back to the set. And how ridiculous

it is. I know that they're bringing it to an end, but how can the stead be buying a hundred billion dollars a month of of bonds when you have all of these people who aren't working, and you have all this consumer pressure and costs going to the roofs and people are spending and that's creating more of the demand and they've made money in the market lot of it's a stock market rally. I mean, that's trillions of dollars

that we've seen. Well, let's talk a little bit about Apple, because that's a company that you say is is priced for growth. We're on three trillion dollar watch right now. Why are you bullish on Apple? Apple tied it all up. They're really brilliant. I used to think it's a hardware company, and hardware companies always have a demise in the end, but it's not. Apple figured it out, so their software,

their hardware, um they own it all. And now that Apple has migrated and taken over businesses, right, that was the last like that. That was really where they had to go and they did it. The pandemic took them over the edge and companies have gone to Apple. And that was and there was so much resistance as we know for years regarding that. Are you talking about Apple

pay in particular or what are you talking about? The pay hasn't made it the way when you think about you know, payple out there in Venmo and Zel and what they've done. But Apple pay will find a way. But what do you mean, what do you mean people like during the pandemic have found Apple and have gone over to Apple. What do you mean just real quickly just got over because they had to go virtual and when faced with the decision and the choice for it,

they they they went to Apple. And companies, big companies that were all networked for um, you know, computer PCs, they went to Apple and they had to because it was all interconnected with the handheld devices. So Apple just forced them into it. When when that BlackBerry died, I don't think many people realize that you could put your money into Apple and you could become a billionaire. Really

matter here? All right, Hillary, We've got to run. Thank you so much, Hillary Kramer, She's president, chief investment officer at A and G Capital Research, on the phone from Mexico. Thanks for listening to Bloomberg Business Week. Download the podcast on iTunes, SoundCloud, or Bloomberg dot com, and you can also listen to our radio show at two pm Eastern on Bloomberg Radio or watch us on YouTube search Bloomberg Global News