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This is Bloomberg Business Week with Carol Messer and Tim Stenebek on Bloomberg Radio.
Well, she's a woman in the world, got you knows it?
Okay, So how's this for a little career advice, Carol, think of yourself as a growth stock. Okay, flicking video, that's a growth stock. Embrace steering through skids, so kind of embrace the moments where you're feel like you're kind of getting off your path and steering out of control.
Beware of managers who keep you from growing. So if you're good at your job, your manager might keep you in that place and then you're not going to grow and do other stuff, which I think is a really important trap to watch.
Uh.
And oh, how about not faking it until you make it?
This is what I want to dig into. That one kind of blows my mind because we talk about the difference between men and women and faking it till you make it. Those are just some of the tips from the new book written by our next guest, which, by the way, no a thing or two about climbing the corporate ladder. Between them, they have got decades of experience in senior positions at United Airlines, Craft Foods, Toilette, Motorola, McKinsey, and Moore.
Grace Puma is the former Chief Operations Officer at PEPSI COO. And Christina Christiana Smith, she is the former president of the Consumer Direct Division at Nike. The new book it's called Career Forward Strategies from Women Who've Made It. Grace joins us from Tampa, Florida, and we got Christina from Portland, Oregon.
Good to have you both with us this afternoon. So Grace, I just want to start with you and we're going to get to the book in just a second, but we got to talk about the consumer space because the two of you have just so much experience when it comes to working for companies that go directly to consumer, companies that have relationships with consumer, and we talked about
the consumer all the time powering this economy. Grace, what out there is interesting to you about the consumer space or in the consumer space right now?
Well, I think the consumer is going through, you know, some challenging times right now. For one thing, they're certainly dealing with this economic uncertainty and so the shifts and what they're buying and how they're spending their money is certainly a factor. But you're also really seeing people start to get a little more nervous about their job security, and I think that factors as well into how consumers are thinking about their purchases.
Christiana, come on in on that as well, and your take on the consumer. You guys really do have some an incredible vantage point in terms of what you've seen and how you think about the space and where it's going.
Well, you know, obviously everyone's got their own opinions. I would say from what I see on a day to day basis, the consumer is still voting with their dollars for brands they love. So if there was ever a time to make sure that you know, from a brand point of view, you were connecting with your consumers and you were projecting that the image that you at that time is now.
Well, and I think about you know, when it comes to brands too, Grace, let me go back to you, if we may ingest the importance of women and thinking about women purchasing and their purchasing power or they're purchasing power for their families, and I do wonder how you both Okay, So that's kind of just in terms of the brand approach, but how you guys have thought about your own specific experiences and whether or not there were commonalities that you found between each other in terms of
what worked. So Grace start there as you guys were starting to put this book together, the commonalities you found, the differences you found in kind of your way forward.
Yeah, you know, this book kind of got birked on the fact that we had Matt when we were both on a corporate board and one day we went out after the meeting and really connected, and it connected around identifying that although we took very different paths to achieve what we achieved some of the top levels and in different corporations, we had some of the same learnings and
some of the same truths. And then you add to that that we both have it's hard to call them millennial children, but children that are now in their thirties and having their own career paths, and we really wanted to transfer the knowledge and the learning that we felt really could be helpful as they set their own path.
I should note that you guys are still on some pretty pretty interesting boards. Grace is on the board of Target, among others. Christiana on Columbia Sports, where Ups West Marine, to name a couple others. So yeah, I mean definitely still in the consumer space right now, no question.
Yeah, exactly, Christiana, So come on in too. Like, as you guys were putting together the book, what did you want to make sure was kind of in the messaging here from your own experience?
Yeah, I think we had a really strong goal to address this moment in time as well as just share, you know, decades of career experience learning that Grace and I had. And as Grace said, even though her path was very much through some of the top CORP corporate brands and companies, mine was consulting for over twenty years and then a C three job at Nike, we had similar takeaways about how to build a career that you
love and how to make it worth it. And when we first started writing the book, we were still in the pandemic, and there was of course all this talk about women falling out of the workforce because they couldn't make the childcare life work balance work. And then there was quiet quitting, and there was just act your wage.
There's so many things right now that show in this moment a need to talk about how you can still invest in yourself and still have a great career while meeting this moment and balancing all the other forces that are at work in your life.
Well, we wanted to.
Do some of the specifics, but I wondered, Grace, if I said, luck, skill, timing, what was the most important thing in your career path?
That's a great question. I would probably say to me all of it too.
Skill.
Well, no, I think it's skill, and I think it's about not just you're not boring with the skill, Okay, it's cultivating skill reevaluating what the next skill or capability is needed or will be needed. So it's an ongoing commitment to learning. And we talk a lot about that in our book, and to read the tea leaves on what is necessary and valuable in those skill sets.
Same thing to you, Christian, And if I could, yeah, please do you mind? If yeah, it's going to say, do you mind if I jump in on that? Going even a step further with Grace, and I believe is you can do a lot more than you think to create your own luck. What do you mean when we talk about when we talk about people we see at work and we say, oh, she's so lucky she got that project. He's so lucky that story hit right at
the right time, whatever it is. But you roll the tape back, you realize they invested in building their network inside and outside the company. They invested in knowing things that are important, and at that moment in time, they demonstrated performance. That's when opportunities tend to come to you. And then we say the key is do you hear the knock on the door when opportunity is knocking, and do you answer it right? That's timing. So there's clearly
serendipity in your career, there's no question. But you can do an awful lot to be in the right place at the right time through the steps that you take to invest in yourself well.
And some would say, I'm trying to think whether I want to think our leader or book or other books that about this whole idea of being the first one at the office, being the last one to leave. And sometimes you can't do that, but it's certainly early on your career things will People will move around and be like, who's here, who can do this? You're here because you're here early and you're here late. And it's as simple sometimes as something like that.
It is, but I'm wondering and I want to go to you grace first on this one. If in an era of hybrid and remote work, that that is more of an issue because you're not going to run into the boss on the zoom. You're only going to run into the boss, you know, at the water cooler, if
you're physically around the boss. And there's an entire generation really brought you know, who graduated in the last four years that that don't have the same idea of going to the office that I think a lot of us grew up with.
Yeah, I mean no doubt, and certainly, you know, during the time that we had been in a lot of our career, it was an opportunity, you know, your first and first out. But today is very different and you know, I definitely think, you know, addressing the virtual world, there is still a need to ensure connection, and connection through work is really the best connection. But making sure that you're where you need to be and that you're contributing
in those moments and that you're establishing relationships. You hear a lot of people in the hybrid work right now going out and even meeting with colleagues outside of work, just to make sure they have a connection. But I think what you said earlier, you know, we talk about this concept of growth stock that's more important, I think than the FaceTime and we talk about it. Yeah, I do, because we talk about it in the book about And
let me just take a minute on it. If you think about a growth stock, a growth stock, you can think of any company that comes to mind. Let's take Apple for example. They tend to grow at a much faster pace in their competitors, and they do that by reinventing themselves, by looking around the corner, and by investing
in the right things. So when you apply that to yourself, whether you're working virtually or in the office, you're going to adopt a mentality that says, you know, I want to no matter where I am, no matter how well I'm doing in my current job, I'm going to be thinking future forward, and I'm going to be cultivating and growing and investing in the type of things that I need to be able to learn and contribute at a
higher rate. And those often lead to opportunities and career progression along your journey.
So Christian and it's kind of like, you know, don't wait for someone to tell you what you need to do. Look around you and figure out what you need to do to either get to the next level, or the next position, or the next opportunity.
Yeah, we would definitely agree with that notion of staying curious, of thinking ahead of planning a bit in terms of saying, Hey, this year, what are my goals in terms of skills I'm going to need to build, what are my goals in terms of people I want to get to know, And in the spirit of meet the moment, we would also say make the most of the opportunities that you
do have. So specifically in this hybrid and remote work environment, you may not, as Grace noted, have as many chances to just hang around the water cooler, but you're on zoom all the time. There's one way you can approach those meetings like, oh, I got another zoom, I'm going to turn off my camera. I'm going to be doing my email while the meeting's going until they hear them call my name, all that kind of thing. We've all
been there. Those are really important opportunities. There are other people on that call, and there are other chances that you've got to show up. So we would just also say, make the most of the chances that you get. If you're in the room, you're there for a reason, speak up, participate. That room nowadays may be virtual, but it's really important that if you're there, you're noted.
That's a really good point do.
I just think talking to colleagues at other companies, people who work in other industries, like, there's definitely a culture at some places where the camera's on or the camera's off.
That's really interesting.
It's really interesting.
I've always kind of had it on and like.
Oh, yeah, this is the camera culture.
Yeah, this is a camera on culture. Do you want to get back to the authors of a new book it's called Career Forward Strategies from Women who have made It. The authors are Grace Puma, former chief operations officer at PepsiCo, and Christiana Smith, she former president of the Consumer Direct division at Nike. One thing we wanted to get into is this idea of don't fake it till you make it.
And the reason we bring it up. We had a conversation with the head of one of the divisions at one of the major cruise companies just on Friday, and this idea of when she got a big promotion that people were like, yeah, but you didn't have all the necessary experience, and she's like, yeah, you're kind of right, you know, but I think about the difference and forgive me. I don't like to make generalizations, but there has been a lot written about where men will be like, I
got it, I'll figure it out. Women are like, oh my god, I don't have all the qualifications. Again, generalizations, but people have written about a lot of this grace. Let me go to you first. Why do you guys say don't fake it till you make it? What exactly do you mean, because sometimes you don't have all the qualifications but you can figure it out.
Yeah. When we think about, you know, fake it till you make it, we don't think that's a bad thing. We think it's a good thing. The reason is because you do whatever you need to do to gain the confidence as you go into a new business or a new environment, or a new position. No one goes into a position when they know everything, okay, especially if you progress your career. So we think it's okay to stand up, whether you have to talk to yourself in the mirror,
pump yourself off, but you're there for a reason. Believe you're there for a reason, and have the confidence to know you're going to figure it out, You're going to learn things, and you're going to be able to apply the talents you do have to be successful. That's very different than what you hear about imposter syndrome, where people say, hey, they got the job and they're not qualified. We think
that's unhealthy. But fake it till you make it means, you know, have the confidence that you're in that position or you've been given that opportunity for a reason, and have the faith that your past history will tell you that you'll learn and you'll achieve.
Yeah, Christina, jump on in here and sort of share your experience with this in the way that you thought about it when you were writing about this in the book.
Yeah. The reason we you might think we're saying don't fake it till you make it is because what we're saying is get past that thinking. Right. You were put there for a reason, and your bosses aren't crazy. The people who hired you knew what they were doing right. Learning what you need to learn to fill in your gaps in a new role is not faking it right, that's being programmatic, that's being strategic, that's leaning into it, that's being forward thinking. So all we would say is
don't fake it till you make it. A plan together to get the rest of what you need in terms of the experience, the skills, the confidence to do the new role that you were put in, but recognize that you are there for a reason in the meantime, and saying that I've got to learn and get down this learning curve in this new role is not the same as saying I'm an impostor and I don't belong here.
We really really dislike the phrase imposter syndrome because that leaves you no place to go, that doesn't give you a path forward, and that's not a very confidence building mindset.
You explore this idea in the book about making sure you're growing within a role, and you argue that you don't want to be too comfortable in a job, and I think for a lot of people that can be kind of tough because, Okay, well, you know, they've worked so hard to get to a certain place and they're finally in that place, Why do they want to be necessarily longing for something more grace?
Yeah, so you know, it starts with what we're trying to encourage people to do is to have and set a strategic path for your career and a cardinal direction. And a cardinal direction gets determined on what are your aspirations and they can evolve over time. So to your point, you know, we think it's important that if you're in a job and you feel like you know, I'm doing great.
I might be getting great performance reviews, but you're no longer learning, then you have the obligation for yourself to meet your aspirations by continuing to look for opportunities to expand your capabilities and expand your contributions. And that can show up in a number of different ways. It might be raising your hand and saying, hey, I'd like to get involved in this particular project or this particular initiative that's outside my area, because you're going to know that
you're going to grow through that experience. So that's kind of the basis of it, and it also is important if you set a cardinal direction of what you want to aspire, that you're checking in with yourself and saying, am I on track and does the job that I'm doing today continue to grow me? And progress me on that journey.
Is it safe to say that, Christiana? I mean, there is a point that you get to that you might be like, I've out grown either this company or this career trajectory. I've hit the top, and it's just time to move on. And you just have to face that, even as much as you might like the company the people you work with, if you really want to advance, sometimes you've just got to leave. It's not just about making more money, but advancing.
Yes, we agree with the notion that if you want to keep growing, sometimes you have to go. And we call that a fork in the road. And sometimes those forks in your career path are forced on you by a company change of ownership or a leadership change in your management team, whatever, But sometimes it's because you're proactively realizing, like you said, that you have grown to a point
where you need to do something different. And what we want to encourage you to do is be self aware enough to actually recognize those moments when they come, versus get surprised by them. And the way you can get surprised by them is if you don't go when you've kind of outgrown your current role. If you don't actually push yourself to get to something next or new. You could end up on what we call benevolent stagnation. Benevolent stagnation is I'm still in the same job, I'm still performing.
Everybody's kind of taken me for granted. I've noticed I'm not seeing the same increases in my comp I've noticed I'm not getting invited to some meetings. I've noticed I'm not being pulled into the cool projects. And we use the metaphor of a rocket in orbit, right, If you're in orbit around a planet, you still got to turn the gas on periodically, or gravity is going to pull you down. Love, It's the same thing at a job. You got to grow or you got to go.
All right, Grace, Christiana, we only have about a minute left here, so just quickly, Grace, let me start with you thirty seconds. Some final thoughts here.
I think I would just encourage you to really embrace ambition and realize that ambition is a really good thing. It means you're going to create a path for yourself to achieve the best you can achieve. And it might be different for every person, but we would encourage people to do it because it's worth it. Having a career women.
Especially, It's okay to be ambitious. I'm just going to put it out there. Christiana thirty seconds here your final thoughts.
Love love, owning the a word. As Grace said. The other thing we like to say to women in particular, but again applies to everybody, is if you're not in the driver's seat of your career, somebody else is and you can't get to a place you want to go to unless you're the one at the wheel. So we try to give you tools and ideas for how you could stay in the driver's seat of your career.
Path well, and that plays into you Also a chapter you guys have Steer about Steer into the Skid, which I really love. I had to steer into his skid and it was such a great opportunity that I ended up creating, but it didn't feel like it as I was going through it. So some great advice Grace Puma, former Chief operations officer PepsiCo. Christianna Smith, she former president
of the Consumer Direct division at Nike. Their new book, Career Forward Strategies from Women who Have made It Thanks to you both.
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