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We are watching shares a Figma. They're up nearly eight percent inter day high today. They were up even higher last night in the aftermarket. This is after the company came out with its latest quarterly update. So the stock rallying after the design and product development platform. It's a creative software maker. They do a lot of interesting stuff.
They gave an annual revenue outlook that topped estimates, so kind of ease some of the Wall Street anxiety that's been out there that the business is threatened by the emergence of rival artificial intelligence products. And if you're not familiar, I mean they do some really interesting stuff.
Yeah, they got a cloud based design prototyping tool. It's largely used for creating UI and user experience for websites and mobile apps. The stock so far this year, down about thirty four percent. Eight percent of the float is shorted Golden Morgan, Stanley, Carrol, RBC, stfel, JP, Morgan, Wells, Fargos just a few, though they've lowered their price targets on the stock. Today the stock down about eighty percent from its IPO that was last July.
Investors don't care, though we see the stock definitely ralling in today's session. All right, let's get to it with more in the quarter of the outlook. The company joining us from San Francisco's Dylan Field. He's co founder, CEO and president of FIGMA. Hey, Dylan, so good to.
Have you here.
With Tim and myself, we do have to address though, I mean, investors have been nervous about you guys. The stocks down about eighty percent from the post IPO highs, and we've seen the software space in particular investors kind of trying to figure out the AI impact on lots of different sectors, including yours. So grappling with the defense ability of FIGS mode against AI native players and competitors, or the potential for general AI efficiencies to kind of
weigh on seats. So walk us through should investors be worried what impact is AI disruption really having on your company?
Yeah, well, first of all, thank you for having me and really appreciate the chance to be on the show with you. Yeah, I think it's I can offer always a point of view, but I can't tell investors what to think or not think. They're going to do that on their own. But for us, twenty twenty five we look back on as a massive year for Figma and our fourth quarter was our best quarter yet. We saw
growth acceleration. We delivered three hundred and four million in revenue last quarter and this is that represented an accelerated year over year growth rate for the quarter of forty percent. And for us, we look at the business and go okay, as AI gets better, Figma gets better, And I think everyone should be thinking that way. As AI gets better, does your company and your products do they also get better?
We're also shipping fast than ever. Last year in twenty twenty five, we went from four to eight products, and we also launched over two hundred features. And that growth and that momentum has not slowed down. The velocity continues, and actually this week we just launched a integration with cloud code where cloud Code can now go to Figma design, so you can take the code you're working on and then take that state of the application and then move
it into Figma Design. We can talk more about the benefits and why we do that later, but we're really excited because right now we are seeing people start in so many different places, whether it be a terminal prompt or user interface design to like Figma. We want to make sure that Figma is the place where all can come together, and that's the platform that we're building. And if we can do that, I think that we are in a place where we can capture a massive opportunity.
So we're very focused on building that platform to make that feature possible.
Still, I wonder about the message to investors who may be concerned about LMS or just AI actually affecting your core business or your core features. As the stock of the company gets lumped in with sort of like all of the SaaS play and this idea of a SaaS pocalypt what would you say to investors out there who are a little gun shy when it comes to software stocks.
Right now, I think that the best thing to do is to actually understand companies from first principles and again, to me, the first and most obvious test is okay, if AI and models are getting better, which I think is our everyone's base case right now, that we're going to continue to see really significant increase in capabilities, then does the company get better too? And for Figma, we passed that test. We are a year ago, we didn't
have any notion of A credits in the platform. Now we see more than seventy five percent of our paid customers who are over ten k in ARR they're consuming A credits every week in Q four as of Q four and that I think speaks to some of the traction that we're seen with our AI offerings. And also over half of our large customers they're building with our product Figma Make, which is a way to go from
prompting and Figma design to working application. Over half those large customers are building in Figma Make on a weekly basis, and so that's and that's up by the way, from thirty percent in Q three, so significant increase to fifty percent. And I think overall the platform is just very ole positioned. If you think about the product development life cycle. Not
everyone is thinking in code. A lot of people want to think visually and if you can go create that map of what the software can be, and if you're not just urgently driving towards a solution, but rather you share our point of view, which is in a world of ever increasing competition software, you don't just need to make a product. You need to make the best product. You need to lean in and actually have design as a differentiator. Craft is a differentiator. You need a point
of view. Then you need to select from this infinite option space out there possibilities and curate the ones that are actually the best options for you to go build. And that's not work that is done in code. Code is linear, it's a linear process. You need to go and actually consider the full option space to go build the best thing. And that's what we're trying to enable for our customers.
So how do you think the world?
I mean, Dylan, this is great because I think we're trying to understand, especially when we see these sectors impacted by this AI scare of just trying to understand how this is unfolding. And yet kind of would you agree that the AI disruption that we're seeing unfold and maybe impact certain sectors is kind of happening a little bit faster than we expected. At the same time, everybody seems to come on and say, we're really early in.
You know, when it comes to this process.
So even if you are kind of somewhat upbeat, would you can see that we're not quite sure exactly how this might shape your company or you know, how this all impacts how we work going forward.
I mean, there's still a lot to be figured out. Right.
Well, I think again there's framework so you can use that are good tools here, So for example, I think that you can we we can broadly bucket verifiable versus non verifiable, and a perhaps it's a spectrum not a binary, but math, for example, as verifiable as it gets. You can understand if something that is a math theorem that AI generates, you know, is provably correct based on you know, formal verification systems. And because of that, we're going to
see incredible progress in mathematics. I mean, it is just amazing what we're going to see in math. Code is closer to math in terms of its verifiability. Design totally not verifiable. You could have five designers in a room debating what is the best design, and you can get like ten or twenty or thirty opinions from those five designers. It is something that is, you know, very subjective, and yet if you get it right and you can lean into craft and you can lean to design as a differentiator,
that is how you're going to win in software. And also it's not just that SaaS companies are software businesses and that's it. Every company's a software business today, and so I think that every company really needs to figure this out. And if they can lean into design and really treat it with the reverence and deserves, then I think they will have a path to winning. But I think the ones that don't are going to have a hard time.
Well, part of that path includes spending big when it comes to AI and working to improve those features and bring those features to your customers. How much are you spending on AI tokens? How much are you spending on the models?
Yeah, you know, we're not trying to be a frontier lab first of all, just to cp super clear about that. You know, there's that's a game that we're not playing, you know, in kidos. To those that do, they are our partners and we're very lucky to partner with them. And also there are customers and it is I think very exciting to see how they're using Figma to help
shape these surfaces. But yeah, you can see the spend around inference show up in our gross margin, and I think that we did well to hold that flat, and definitely we're always looking at ways to be more optimization focused.
But also you can see it as as a proxy through how Make weekly active users, which we disclosed as well, grew seventy percent quarter over quarter, and I think that the way that the overall activities growing the platform as it relates to not just that, but also the way that people are using some of our AI image generation capabilities and other AI features in Figma. It's really just
the start. Like we believe that Make in Figma Design and Figma Design is our our five ship design tool, whereas Make is about going from prompt to working app. With Figma, we can try to bring those surfaces close together. Because so many of our users that are using Make on active basis are also using Figma Design. It is the majority case by far, and so if we can bring those close together and have them live as one experience and help people really think, divergently, explore options spaces,
but also use their hands get into it. You don't want to prompt and say, you know, change it to twelve pixels spacing like and then takes two minutes to go see if you're right or not. Like, you want to go have that directnpulation flow state and actually see what it is that you want. And I think there's things that are going to do and prompt and things that are going to do with direct manipulation with design tools like we've done for a while.
A really interesting conversation, especially Dylan, against what we've been seeing playing out in the market as we've tried to figure out what AI is going to do to different industries. Love it, Thank you so much, Really appreciate it, Dylan Field. He is co founder, CEO, and president of Figma. Figma shares. By the way, folks, they are still up more than eight percent in today's session.
Hey, let's get to one of our most read stories on the Bloomberg. It's another gut check perhaps in the world of private credit again, this one involving yes Blue Owl Capital. She's stumbling after the decision to restrict withdrawals from one of its private credit funds raised fresh concerns over the risks bubbling under the surface of the one point eight trillion dollar market. We've got Bloomberg News Leverage finance reporter Olivia Fischlow joining us from New York City.
Restricting withdraws from a private credit fund never a good sign investors reacting, Hi.
Guys, Yeah, So basically what we've seen here is that this is one of Bluell's funds, a non traded BDC that they decided yesterday to ultimately restrict redemptions from. But what they did instead was they've sold loans from the portfolio in order to start paying investors back and winding down this vehicle.
So help us understand And I think, you know, we've only got about a minute or so here, but it's just what do investors need to understand this? Because we've been following Blue Oul for a while, go back to Jamie Diamond's comments when it comes to private credit and you know, never just one cockroach. And then Blue Oul Capital's CEO co CEO Mark Libscheltz came back and defended it, and I'm just.
Is everything okay? Or do we need to be is this is this kind of.
Cost for concern here? And are what should we be watching to see? Because Aria's Management's down five percent, Apollo Management's down six and a half percent, Blackstone is down six percent. Just got about forty seconds here.
Olivia definitely, Yeah, it's a fair question, and I think what investors need to be thinking about is these are retail vehicles, but they house illiquid private credit loans, right, And in this situation, bluell was able to sell some pieces of these loans in order to make up liquidity and start to pay investors back. But as of now they've sold around thirty four percent of the portfolio, so they still have a ways to go of loans to
sell to make investors whole. So I think the concern that investors are starting to see is, well, when I invest in these vehicles that promise the ability to receive cash back, will I actually be able to get that money back?
Right? We talk about this especially as there has been a push to open this up to more individual investors. For one case, it's not as liquid as a lot of other investments. Olivia fishloughl News Leverage Finance reporter, really appreciate it.
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast. Listen live each weekday starting a two pm Eastern up on Apple Car playing and the Android Auto with the Bloomberg Business app. You can also listen live on Amazon Alexa from our flagship New York station Just Say Alexa played Bloomberg eleven thirty.
Well share as a Wayfair.
We're keeping a watch on that one, dropping a lot down about sixteen percent at their lows on earnings, a four month low intra day as active customers during the fourth quarter came in slightly below street expectations. Now the Street weighing in on the results, William Blair saying that the six point nine percent growth and net revenue likely
fell short of buyside expectations. But you had some peers rh our House and also Williams Sonoma under some pressure in the trade, so investors looking at the group overall. Let's get a little bit more on the outlet. We want to head to Boston.
We got Kate Deliver back with us CFO of Wayfair. Kate, good to have you on the program. Tell us a little bit about quarter because interestingly enough, jeffries Uh says, this is attributable to colder weather to start the year. Anything about the guidance regarding is is it about colder weather?
Yeah?
Well, maybe let's step back and sort of speak to the quarter we just reported, and then I'm happy to shift to guidance. You know, we feel really great about the quarter we just reported. I think it highlighted and capped off a year of incredible momentum for us. We opened up the year flat, we you know, exit of the year at seven percent, revenue growth eight percent, you know, managing for the exit of Germany, and we flowed through
to improved EBITA. EBITDA grew year over year about sixty percent, right, so we're seeing both ongoing market share gains and improved profitability and that story continues with our guide into Q one. We feel really good about the guide, the you know, mid single digits revenue growth and improved adjusted EBATA throughout the quarter. So you know, when we look at it, we feel that we produced pretty strong results.
Yeah, I mean, you look at the quarter, I mean it just cps better than what the street was expecting. Just to even, as you said, coming in stronger, net revenue up about seven percent year over year, gross margin, coming in better than the street estimate, there were a lot to do. So maybe we talk a little bit about you know, I am curious you know, you guys have dealt with the call and so on and so forth.
What are you hearing from the investment community that they're not just so comfortable with Kate?
Yeah, you know, actually, you know, as we talked to investors, I think again they're they're pleased with the momentum that
we see here. You know, obviously we're in a category that has been under pressure, right, So the category itself, we think was down low single digits in the fourth quarter, you know, to your earlier questions sort of around whether in the first quarter, we do think the category has been impacted in the first quarter of this year, you know, likely you know, downlow single digits again, maybe slightly worse even than Q four. So there's certainly some complexity in
the overall category here. You know, what can we focus on? We can focus on what we can control, and our share game continues to be a real source of strength. You see us outstripping a category by several points, right, and that's continued, you know, Q three, Q four and then again into the guide in Q one.
And we should point out that investors have been really keen on your stock, I mean, nearly doubling over the past year.
Kate, let me just go to what you said. I mean, maybe it.
Is those concerns about some softer active customer trends kind of early on in the first quarter. Do you give us an idea of what you're seeing in any idea or can you tell us if it continues.
It's a great question. So active customers is one of our reported KPIs. It's actually a lagging indicator. Okay, that metric is LTM active customers, So anyone who's sort of placed an order within the last twelve months and as orders grow, and you do see that order volume grew in Q three and in the quarter we just reported
Q four, that sort of precedes active customer growth. The other thing I do just want to point out there is we did exit in January of last year or German Business, So that took a large chunk of customers or not a large chunk, but a chunk of customers out of that number. And so as you're looking at that active customer number, you know obviously that came out, so we'll clear that comp you know, we exited that in January of this past year.
You did say the sector has been under pressure, and Carol mentioned some of the peers, But what about the Wayfair consumer. When they're buying something on the platform right now, are they buying it because they need to replace something in their home. Are they buying it because they have extra money to upgrade something. What's the profile of the consumer and in other words, how is the consumer doing.
It's a great question. We're seeing a few trends. So you mentioned some of the sort of luxury peers. Obviously, we have high end brands that do compete with those players, like a Paragold or specialty retail brand. The Wayfair brand itself, you know, plays all the way from opening price point to you know, upper end mass, so really spans the full range. And we have seen, you know, a divergence some of that ke shaped economy I'm sure we've all
been talking about now for a bit. Certainly are Paragold brand or specialty retail brands are growing, you know, really north of twenty percent we said in twenty twenty five, so you can see that accelerating beyond you know, the overall core business. And I think that speaks to the strength and that you know, higher net worth consumer. We also do see a bit of a divergence in the types of things that people are buying. When I talk about the category being down low single digits, that's a
category overall. We actually think furniture or bigger ticket items are down more. That tends to actually be where we you know, are more focused and have a bigger part of the business. But you know, we also of course sell decorative accent, seasonal decor. That part of the business seems to have done a bit better from a category perspective overall, So those would be lower ticket items you know, that may feel more comfortable for folks to purchase right now.
Well, and the other thing I want to ask you and listen, Kate, we're obsessed with this the buy now, pay later and you can do that on Wayfair too. Are you seeing an uptick in that.
Yeah, we have a number of options you know, for various financings and buy now, pay later as we work with a wide range of partners. I do think it's an important offering for the consumer, so you know, to you know, sort of sort of ensure good underwriting for folks and provide them with a lot of optionality. I would say our penetration there has been lower than other
more traditional brick and brick and mortar furniture retailers. So you know, as we grow, we're really trying to get to, you know, sort of a more natural place there for the furniture industry overall.
We're speaking with Kate Goliver, CFO of Wayfair, joining us from Boston.
You know, Kate, one of the other things that we've talked with you about is the physical stores, and you have noticed some encouraging early performance from the physical stores when it comes to.
Brand engagement and cross channel lift.
As you think about or as you kind of move from proof of concept to a potential expansion, what specific performance thresholds are you kind of focusing on and would justify accelerating the physical store growth.
Yeah, it's a great question. So we look at the economics of the store itself, so purchases that are directly attributable to the store and the economics of you know, operating that store. So as you think about the overall store four wall P and L. But one of the unique things about you know, building stores who already have a well established e commerce brand is you do get to see a benefit in the area for the brand overall.
But the other thing that we look at is you know what in sort of industry partlance you might call the halo effect, but really sales that are attributable to folks that maybe came into the store and then you know, left and went and bought something, or you know, had an idea about the store being in the area because they've heard more about it and therefore then shopped in our platform. And we've seen that continue to hold in
really nicely. We gave a stat in our updated investor presentation today that the first store, which is in Chicago, if you look at the entire state of Illinois versus the rest of the country since the store opened, it's had a ten percent cag or higher than the rest of the country. And that gives you a sense of, you know, the momentum that you can get from the store. It's obviously very crew metric, yeah, but it's an easy
way to sort of explain it. So we really look at the combination of the store, P and L and then the other benefits that come along with having the store.
Well, that makes me want to follow like what metrics would cause you to maybe remain a little bit more cautious, So like if you open another store and the metrics aren't, so you're not seeing that kind of momentum that you're getting in the Chicago store. Would just say, Okay, maybe it just depends on the city of the environment, like there's a lot of specifics that can go into it.
Yeah, you know, I think our focus right now is on learning more about what makes a great store. Right So we have one store open. We're playing to open three more in twenty six. We have one opening soon in the Atlanta area, another one this summer in Columbus, and then in the fall and Denver. These will be you know, the Columbus store, for example, seventy thousand square feet versus the you know other stores are roughly around one hundred and fifty thousand square feets. So we're testing
out a slightly smaller format. We're testing out different types of shopping areas where we put the store, and so we intend to learn and then continue to refine the store model based on those learning. So let's do you know, we are quite excited about it as a.
Channelay, let's go from sort of like the old school store retail model to than what you're doing with AI and.
Layer stores old school.
So they are I mean about what you need with channel.
We like the overall omni channel experience, but but what.
How do you layer in personalization with AI? And I'm curious how you do that in a way that actually makes you more competitive in this area.
Yeah, we're we're really excited about what we can do with AI from the customer experience perspective, and we've already started some of that and piloted some of that on the site and there's certainly more to come there. You know, I think this category is a bit unique in that respect because it's a category that is a highly emotive category right, feels very personal to folks. It's not a
commodity category where you're doing sort of standard replenishment. You want to get a better sense and see the actual options out there. The brand is important, you know, our brand is important because you want to sure the delivery experience is high quality. So we think that the category itself lends itself to bringing people to our site and engaging them in a unique way. One thing that we can do with AI is help get more personalized for
your style preferences. You know, I'm sure if the three of us were to pick an end table, we'd all pick different end tables. What we'd love to do is make sure that when we land on the site, we're serving up to each of us exactly that end table that we want. Generative Ai allows us to do that in a faster, more nimble way. It also allows you to play around with discovery. So if you were to go on the app today into the discover tab, you'd see a whole catalog of images and you can create
more yourself if you want that. Are Jenai created that then allow you to shop the catalog based on the type of room that you're designing or the aesthetic look that you're looking for. And I think that kind of engagement and interaction is really compelling in this category.
So I know, Kate, if we had asked Tim, like if we were going you, me and him shopping for pillows, you know he would say, no more pillows. I don't know about your household, but that's what happens in my house anyway.
What originally, people have an insatiable demand for pillows, So we will keep selling him.
Thank God, Thank God. Always appreciate getting time. It is a great read on the consumer and finding out what's going on. Kate, Well, thank you Kate Gulliver. She's the chief financial officer of Wayfair.
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Back with Us, Kerry Pelts and Matthew O'Neil, the directors and producers of Can't Book Away, Welcome back, Thanks for coming back to joining us, Thanks for having us. You know, we actually you booked for last week in the trial got moved around a little bit because of a sick lawyer, so we do appreciate your flexibility. We're going to talk about the documentary and talk about that in the context
of the trial. But first, Perry, for those who who have not yet seen the documentary, worries that you tell the lawyers that you follow, remind everybody.
Yeah, we have the privilege of following several families, all of whom have lost children in the case, except for one family whose child is still alive but has been deeply harmed by an overdose. But we follow families who have, unfortunately whose children have died as a result of their exposure to social media, and we follow them as they try to seek justice for their for their.
Love, you know, their beloved children.
Yeah, and you know, it's interesting what you guys do in this film. And we've been thinking a lot about what the world is doing, whether it's Europe or it's Australia, that they are looking at social media and starting to put in restrictions in place.
I am curious about.
As you start to watch what's happening here in the US, Mark Zuckerberg. And you know how important that is because there's lots of litigation. You guys have the group of lawyers that you track, but there's states looking into it, there's school systems looking into this. So how important is what happens here in this this case that Mark Zuckerberg just gave some testimony for.
So there's state's attorneys general is looking into it in this case. And KGM, the anonymous twenty year old who's at the center of it, is actually a client of the Social Media Victims Law Center, which who are the lawyers just heard in that clip and are really at the forefront of this. What's important to remember is that this is just one case. In this case, it's one of nine Bellweather cases that has twenty five hundred other cases stacked up behind it, and all of these different
efforts to bring accountability are really really important. This isn't going to be the end of this. It's really only the beginning.
So Perry, if there is accountability here, at least in the definition that you guys have, what could be the implications for the social media platforms and the way that kids have access to them.
Well, if we look globally about what's happening, there's a saying that the US debates, Europe regulates, and Australia bands. So we are really behind and what we're really missing And unfortunately we've seen so many times that these tech CEOs are hauled into Congress right here, lots and lots of talk and chat and nothing really gets done.
Well, it's like social media clips ironically, for the members of government to then.
Posts exactly that's exactly right.
We need reform here in this country, and hopefully, to Matt's point, this is the beginning of what may be some steps that take place in this country to hold these companies accountable.
Yeah, it's funny, you know, not funny.
We have a story in the Bloomberg about parents now getting for their kids.
Dumb, phonest in smart phones.
To limit access, and even kids being like kind of pushing back. There is something going on in terms of our culture. Do you feel like, in terms of society at large, that there is here in the US? I mean, as we watch what feels like the rest of the world being way ahead of us on this, do you feel like there's something turning here.
There's a change that's happening in this society, for sure, the way children are interacting with social media, the way parents are trying to involve themselves in their children's lives. But you can't outparent a trillion dollar algorithm. That's just the truth, and we are laggards. The UK has the Online Safety Act, the European Union has a Digital Services Act.
Australia has the I think it's called the Online Safety Amendment that bans sixteen year olds anyone under the edge of sixteen from using social media and critically holds the social media companies financially accountable. Those are the legislative issues that hold the social media companies financially accountable. That's what these lawsuits will do in the end. That's what's going to matter to these companies, But is.
There a way to do this that's a tough task, like holding these companies financially accountable, because what does that actually look like. I mean, we talked about this in the context of Australia and that means a social media ban or like technology bands. But it doesn't actually mean, you know, these companies coming out and providing some sort of payments.
No.
And it's really difficult because these social media companies are amongst the most wealthy companies in the world right This is not minor.
Mark Zuckerberg wealthy.
Absolutely, and they have a lot of tendrils into our Congress and into government officials. This is a really difficult thing to get done. And yet we look at the reporting that Olivia's done, you look at the work Jonathan Heights done. We must have changed. We were talking about a generation here that's lost.
We just talked about there's this great Columbi Amandemull on a Bloomberg Garb Blomberg Business weekteme about kind of corporate complicity in this current environment with everything that's going on, and maybe CEO is not speaking up. So we watched Mark Zuckerberg or we've been following him. What are you guys watching in terms of this case and what's crucial in terms of the outcome? As you said, there's so many cases stacked up behind it.
Well, for sure, this will set a tone, right. It's an important case because it is a first and it's getting a lot of attention in the media, which matters too because people are talking about it and talking about what happened to this now twenty year old but child when the allegations about what happened to her and her
media addiction came out. And looking at the documents that are coming out in this case that show the internal communications that Facebook, even specifically when it comes to Mark Zuckerberg to not be robotic to say change so that he seems more sincere, it suggests that they don't actually believe what they're saying.
Hey, Perry, before we go, how is history going to judge us as a society?
Oh?
I think on this count, I don't think history judges us well. I think the one thing though, if we look back at tobacco, we look at opioid's. Tobacco took almost forty years to get legislation. Opioid's almost thirty, so We're at least at a place it's not great, but at least we're starting to take this really seriously and hopefully as a country we will make some forward momentum. We can only hope, because our kids' lives hang in the balance.
Than you guys for coming back, We really appreciate it.
Thank you.
Perry Paltz and Matthew Neil, directors and producers of Can't Look Away, The Case Against Social Media, the Bloomberg original investigation, now available on all of the Bloomberg platforms, so check it out.
This is the Bloomberg Business Week Daily podcast, available on Apple, Spotify, and anywhere else you get your podcasts. Listen live weekday afternoons from two to five pm Eastern on Bloomberg dot com, the iHeartRadio app, tune In, and the Bloomberg Business App. You can also watch us live every weekday on YouTube and always on the Bloomberg terminal.