EP4- The Unseen Influence of Moms - podcast episode cover

EP4- The Unseen Influence of Moms

May 21, 202535 minSeason 1Ep. 4
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Episode description

If you wanted to change the world, where would you start? A boardroom? A ballot box? What if the most powerful catalyst for change was... a mom?

In this episode, we uncover the often-overlooked force shaping economies, faith, and the very fabric of society: mothers. From economic trailblazers like Deloris Jordan to the spiritual architects of the home, this episode explores the invisible but undeniable power of moms.

We’ll hear from:

  • Katherine Wintsch, CEO of The Mom Complex, on the economic firepower moms wield—and often underestimate.
  • Dr. Aisha Nyandoro, founder of the Magnolia Mother’s Trust, who shares what happens when we actually invest in mothers.
  • Joel Muddamalle, Bible scholar, who helps us reclaim the spiritual identity of motherhood through a scriptural lens.

You’ll also learn how moms have been hosting sacred feasts since the beginning of time—not just in Scripture, but around everyday dinner tables.

Because the truth is: Motherhood is not a support role. It’s a leadership position. And the influence of moms? It’s world-shaping.

In This Episode:

  • Why motherhood might be the most powerful (and underestimated) force in the world
  • The economic influence of moms as "consumer-in-chief"
  • How corporations profit from maternal identity—and what real investment in moms looks like
  • The shift happening in faith communities and the ripple effect of women stepping away from church
  • A look at the sacred table: what biblical feasts and everyday mom-life have in common

Resources Mentioned:

Next Week: We’re diving into sisterhood, solidarity, and how moms don’t just raise kids—they raise communities.

Want to go deeper? Find a MomCo group near you: www.themom.co

Transcript

If you wanted to change the world, where would you start? Politics? Education? The economy? You'd probably gather experts, set up panels, call a global summit. Some might appeal to the billionaires. Most of us would probably overlook the most obvious answer of all. Start with the moms. Mothers are the single most influential force on the planet economically, spiritually,

culturally, domestically. They shape financial markets, mold values, pass down belief systems, drive social behavior, and uplift entire communities from the inside out. But here's the wild part. Most of that influence goes unrecognized. It's quiet, unpaid, unacknowledged, and yet it's everywhere.

Funny enough the experts already know this more on that later This episode is all about the often hidden power the kind of power that doesn't scream or campaign It just changes everything starting in kitchens carpool lines and bedtime prayers Society might think it knows what mothers do But what if the most world -shifting work isn't happening in boardrooms or on ballot boxes? What if it's happening right now? in the most unexpected places. Let's talk about the fierce influence

of moms. Motherhood is history's greatest untold story. It's built empires, fueled revolutions, and pushed the boundaries of science. And yet, because it happens in quiet rooms, behind closed doors it's been left out of the grand narrative. But make no mistake, motherhood is not just tenderness. It's raw, unrelenting, a force that tears you apart and remakes you over and over again. It's blood, bone, love, and sheer will. This isn't

a story about sacrifice. It's a story about power, about what it means to become a mother, and what it means to never stop becoming. This is Bloodlines and Backbone. There's a moment in the movie air that's the Michael Jordan movie. Maybe you've seen it where Dolores Jordan, played by a transcendent Viola Davis, has a phone call with the Nike executive and quietly rewrites the rules of sports marketing history. Michael will get a percentage of the revenue of the sale of each shoe that is sold.

I'm sorry? Not all Nike shoes, just the ones with his name on them. Her son Michael Jordan is on the verge of signing the deal that will change basketball branding and billion -dollar sneaker culture forever. And in that moment, it's not his agent, not his lawyer, not his coach. It's his mother who says he deserves a piece of every shoe that bears his name. This was completely unheard of. An impossible request. Keep in mind, Michael Jordan wasn't Michael Jordan yet. No

one knew he'd be the GOAT. Well, one person knew. because moms know everything. But he gets a piece of the revenue of the shoe and all future Air Jordan shoes. The shoe is just a shoe until my son steps into it. I love this scene because it's the moment you realize this movie isn't really about basketball or sneakers. It's about a mother's belief. and how it can change the course of history. It's a perfect illustration of the type of influence moms have. Dolores Jordan

doesn't raise her voice. She doesn't posture. She doesn't need a title. But her calm, confident, inner knowing made Michael Jordan the richest athlete of all time. See, a mom's influence is not just confined to the household or her parenting. It's directly connected to monumental economic outcomes. It's been widely reported that moms control 85 % of household purchases and influence up to $3 .8 trillion in annual spending just in the United States. That's more than Italy,

Canada, or France's individual GDPs. If moms were a country, their spending would make them one of the largest economies in the world. No formal cabinet, no flashy campaign slogans. Just juice boxes, school shoes, therapy co -pays, and a sixth sense for what's running low in the fridge. How is it that economists, financial strategists, the World Bank, and Wall Street

aren't talking about this? To understand the depth of this economic influence, we sat down with Katherine Winch, the CEO of the Mom Complex and someone who's at the forefront of mom's spending power. Moms have extraordinary spending power. And I think if women actually recognize that, that there are many, many industries that we could put out of business. specifically the beauty

industry. And so I think that I know that the beauty industry is a six billion dollar industry funded on the backs of women and mothers everywhere who think they're not pretty enough or thin enough or their hair's not long enough, et cetera. So my wish for women in this world is that we would realize that our physical appearance is not the end all be all and we could be happy with ourselves

and I always love. to think about that if women woke up tomorrow and decided that we were beautiful, how many industries we would put out of business. I know for a fact why brands still use outdated tropes like the frazzled mom and the minivan

in their marketing and advertising. So if you take one mom and you put her in a room of seven other moms that she doesn't know and, you know, in the name of consumer research and you ask her what her family eats every day, what their family is doing, how well behaved their children are, how involved their partner is, it's lies. And so what it sounds like is, oh, my children eat broccoli three meals a day. We always recycle.

We eat gluten free, dairy free, soy free. And my partner is super, super involved and helpful. And the reason that mothers lie is the reason that I started my consulting company called The Mom Complex is because in those environments they do not feel safe saying, I am broken. I am tired. I have breast cancer. I'm on the verge of getting a divorce. My life is falling apart.

My son... has ADHD. They're not comfortable saying any of that because they feel profoundly judged by other women, by other mothers, and even the brands that are trying to attract the attention.

and money from those mothers and so it's not necessarily the fault of these companies are spending millions of dollars they know moms are important and women they spend all this money to connect with them it's the environment that sucks we have to start opening up and being honest about our problems i think that is the greatest thing that holds women and mothers back is his belief. We cannot talk about our flaws. We cannot

talk about when we have. We make a mistake. We can't certainly cannot say we don't know what we're doing, you know, as a wife or a partner or a mother. And that's exhausting. And a lot of women do not want to express any downside of life because they believe that they are the only ones that have it. They believe everybody

else is perfect and they are pathetic. So for any woman listening right now, I encourage you today to say the truth out loud in some way, hint that you're struggling, give some clues, even say it out loud specifically. And what I can almost guarantee you will find is that the backlash that you are convinced is coming, that everybody's gonna think you're a trash fire, will not happen. And especially if you open up to another woman or mother, they're gonna go,

oh girl, you too? Like you're struggling too? I thought I was the only one. And that's when we start to release the pressure. That's when we stop holding on to the lies that are buried deep inside of us. And if we can start to talk about that, we will release all that pressure. And that's when I think the social change will happen, that we women are allowed to be flawed. We're allowed to not wear makeup. We're allowed to not be perfect. But I think until we free

ourselves, no one's coming for us. No one's coming to save you. Marketers know about the spending power of moms and profit greatly from maternal identity. In fact, they've built entire marketing empires around it, not just by targeting moms, but by co -opting the idea of motherhood itself. Take a stroll down any grocery aisle and you'll find it. Pastel packaging, words like natural, nurturing, gentle. The promise isn't just a product.

It's the illusion of being a good mom. Organic baby food, toxin -free shampoo, early learning flashcards. These things are all sold not just as commodities, but as a moral compass. You're a good mom if you obsess over every detail. Because here's the trick. When you market to moms, you're not just selling to them. You're selling through them. Moms don't just buy for themselves. And let's be honest, so many moms don't do much for

themselves. They buy for their kids, their spouses, their aging parents, their fur babies, their classrooms, their communities. And the industry term for this? the consumer in chief. Moms are everywhere in the economy, and nowhere in the conversation about power. They're driving consumer behavior, brand trends, and even community resilience, but most of that labor, both emotional and economic, goes unnoticed. And while many companies profit off maternal identity, few invest in actual maternal

well -being. They want the mom who buys, not the mom who leads. But make no mistake, if you've got the title of mom, you lead. You lead dinner, you lead discipline, you lead doctor's appointments, daycare drop -off, disaster control when the stomach bug hits at midnight. You lead even when you're exhausted, even when you're doubted, even when you're not seen or think you lead. It's not just something you do, it's who you are. Motherhood is not a support role. It's a leadership

position. You know this. And when moms are resourced, not just marketed to, entire communities rise. One woman who knows this firsthand is Dr. Aisha Nyandoro, CEO of Springboard to Opportunities, a nonprofit that helps low -income families thrive. In 2018, she launched the Magnolia Mothers Trust, the first guaranteed income program in the U .S. to give unrestricted cash directly to low -income mothers. No strings attached. No hoops

to jump through. And what happened next? The percentage of mothers able to pay all their bills on time increased from 27 % to 83%. The capacity to provide sufficient groceries rose from 64 % to 81%. Families with health insurance increased by 25%. Children performing above grade level increased by 20%. These outcomes validate the program's impact, demonstrating that when mothers are given the resources they need, not only do their immediate circumstances improve, but they

pass it along to their kids. It turns out, if you want to raise a household, a neighborhood, or a zip code out of poverty, you start with a person holding it all together. You start with the moms. the backbone of the family, and the blueprint for community health. Mothers are multipliers. Give them resources, and they don't just survive. They build. If you grew up in a faith community, chances are it wasn't your pastor who first taught

you how to pray. It was your mom, or your grandma, or your aunt who always had butterscotch candies in her purse and never missed a Sunday. The women, the moms, They showed up. They led bedtime prayers. They packed up diaper bags with Cheerios, church bulletins, and children's Bibles. They were the glue. For generations, moms and grandmas have been the spiritual caretakers of the family. And for many, that's still true. But there's

a shift happening, and fast. For the first time in recorded history, women are leaving the church faster than men. And if that fact makes your jaw drop, you're not alone. For decades, churches were powered by women, not just quietly behind the scenes, but front and center in their own way, organizing the nursery schedule, leading small groups, and corralling toddlers into Christmas pageants with duct -taped angel wings and sticky candy canes. But today, that's shifting. And

the data tells a surprising story. According to Barna Group, Gen Z women who have historically been the most likely to participate in church life are now less religiously affiliated than Gen Z men. As of 2024, 39 % of Gen Z women identify as religiously unaffiliated compared to 31 % of Gen Z men. It's the first time that gender gap has flipped. And it's not just about affiliation. Weekly church attendance is higher for men for

the first time in modern history. 30 % of men versus 27 % of women, according to the same Barna data. This trend didn't come out of nowhere. From 2000 to 2015, women outpaced men in church attendance. Then the line started to blur. From 2016 to 2021, they ran neck and neck. But over the last three years, Women are consistently attending church less than men. So what's going on? According to Barna CEO David Kinnaman, it's not one single reason, it's a slow accumulation

of many. Perhaps it's the feeling of always showing up and not being seen, the pressure to serve without ever feeling heard, or decades of purity culture messaging that hyper -focused on modesty and abstinence while skipping over discipleship, depth, and leadership. Or maybe it's something that happened outside the church walls, something related to the unique challenges of modern motherhood

from episode two. The fatigue, the burnout, what Barna calls compassion fatigue, the emotional exhaustion that comes from being the spiritual backbone of a place and feeling like the scaffolding. At home, moms make the coffee, care for the kids, do the admin, make sure everyone is taken care of. and then they come to church and are expected to do those same roles. The pandemic only accelerated things. Women took on the lion's share of caregiving, homeschooling, meal making, career pivoting.

And when the world opened back up, many never returned to their previous church roles, not out of rebellion, but because they were tired and no one offered a new model. Now in their absence, men are showing slight upticks in engagement. They're consuming more long -form theological content, seeking out tight -knit communities, and for some rediscovering spiritual purpose in a disoriented world. But make no mistake, this is not a victory lap. This is a wake -up

call. When women begin to step back, not just from programs, but from the identity of spiritual nurture. The ripple effect is enormous. Their absence doesn't just shift church attendance, it shifts the future of faith. Because for centuries, women have been the spiritual transmitters, passing down faith, shaping rituals, creating traditions, holding families together through hardship and healing, praying for their kids with unmatched fervency. And here's the catch. Interest in spirituality

isn't declining, not even close. It's booming. People, especially women, are more spiritually curious than ever. But they're looking for something real, something meaningful, something that doesn't come wrapped in performance or pressure. So the question isn't if women still care about faith. The question is, are they being given a place

at the table to explore it? I sat down with Bible scholar Joel Manamale to unpack the theology of motherhood and why reclaiming this role might just be one of the most important spiritual shifts of our time. What are you seeing in the faith lives of the moms in your church? Yeah, it's

actually really interesting. I had the opportunity just a couple of weeks ago to speak at a high school retreat and it was a bunch of freshmen through seniors and there was a group of moms who had actually come as kind of volunteers and you know to help out with the retreat and I spoke for some main sessions and they did a Q &A for just the seniors one night and then right after that Q &A got done they opened it up for just the parents you know to kind of have some conversations.

The first observation that that was absolutely fascinating was that 80 % were all the moms who were there and had the time and the opportunity and the flexibility to actually invest and to do this. But the questions that they asked gave me a very specific insight into the things that they are looking at and working through. And it's that these moms are curious theologically for biblical and scriptural truth. Like they're

being inundated. a day in and day out basis with competing cultural values, competing cultural ideas of understanding of gender and sexuality and relationships and vocation. And I think what they're looking for is, well, what does the Bible actually say about these things? How can we know that the Bible actually said it versus this being something that has just been told to me from my pastor or from church leaders or something

that I read somewhere? And then have this confidence that there's some honesty for the attention along the way to navigate it. And so I think that's kind of what moms are looking at and thinking about right now. Teens report that moms are one of their primary partners for almost every activity outside of like sports and social media. But like talking about faith, I think 70 % of the teens said that their mom was like their primary person that they talked about faith with, which

I just love. And you're so right. Moms are wrestling with all of these very real cultural issues that are in our home. Our kids are navigating on a daily basis and we want to do it right. From a theology standpoint, one of the things that I'm having consistently conversations with with moms and just church attendees in general is thinking in terms of not just me myself and I and my immediate context, but thinking generationally.

you know, thinking in terms of what is the impact that I'm having now that is going to echo on in generations to come. And when we look at the biblical text, look at the biblical narrative, we get the benefit of seeing generational in one macrocosm in a microcosm, we can kind of zero down and see how all these things work out. I mean, people get stressed out about genealogies, right? Like, why in the world are these genealogies

in the Bible? And I think they're there as a benefit for us to see like, oh, Generations matter. The way that moms and dads raise their children matter. Look at the entire First and Second Kings and First and Second Chronicles. I mean, these

things matter generationally. And so one of the things I think that would be helpful is to recognize that the value and the meaning and the intentionality of these moments that feel like, gosh, am I making a contribution meaningfully to the world if we reframe our understanding and saying, Yes, you are, massively. Let's talk about a theology of motherhood. And this could easily just, you know, be a theology of fatherhood, so a theology of parenting in general. But what does that even

mean? And why is it an important topic to explore, especially in the context of the church and us as people of faith? Yeah, that's so good. So it's really interesting. So my background, Mandy, is, you know, theological, academic, I've gone through seminary, the PhD in biblical theology. And I'm going to be honest with you, I never had a class on the theology of motherhood. Like I actually, in preparation for this, I went through my notes and did like a search of all my, I'm

like, the search result was zero. You know? I actually think that's a challenge. I actually think that's something that has to be addressed, honestly, because comparatively, when I did a search on Um, moms, motherhood, there's some technical words. So when I say these technical words, I don't want people to like panic and say, oh my gosh, like just know that these are

technical academic words. So like one of the phrases is childbearing that in the ancient world that, that biological function was connected with motherhood. So when you're doing research academically, those are the kinds of things you're looking at. Like it is everywhere in scripture. Mandy, I think it's fascinating. that when God first creates Adam, after a series, like if you read Genesis 1, it is a series of it's good, it's good, it's good, it's good, right? So these

summary statements of it's good. He creates man, Adam, the Hebrew word is adam. And then for the very first time, he says it's not good. For the very first time, it's not good. it's not good in response to the fact that man is isolated, he's alone, he doesn't have a counterpart with him, and so then God creates a woman from his

rib. Now I've actually done a bunch of study on this term rib in Genesis, and unfortunately a lot of modern translations they use a wooden kind of translation to just help our mind like comprehend it, but it's so much more. The Hebrew word shalah, it actually refers to an entire side of someone or something. So we think a modern day of rib and it's like, I can have a cracked rib and it's painful or, you know, but I can still live, but imagine not having an entire

side of something. Like you can't function. It's not possible, right? And so, and then another interesting thing, this Hebrew word is also used

of pillars of stability and structure. One of those instances is the temple of God that these, there are these pillars and I just think, okay, what is the bigger vision the bigger view of woman before we even get to motherhood of woman and the bigger view and vision of womanhood is that um god creates a woman By making man half so in order for man to become whole he's got to have this counterpart you know which is which is woman which is kind of a brilliant and beautiful

thing and then the purpose the the the value proposition here is that this woman is a source of stability is a sort of source of strength. You know an imagery that I sometimes give is like what like. what would happen if in my house right now that I'm sitting in, all of a sudden you took out all the beams of stability, all the beams of structure, everything would implode. It would all fall in on each other, you know?

And so I think this gives us a really important context that we have to consider a theology of motherhood from. And then we get to what, again, is so fascinating. Adam names his wife Eve. Now, I think this is super important. This is prior to any children being born and prior to the fall. So this is in Eden prior to the fall. Well, what is this? What is her name, Eve? It's Hava in Hebrew. What does it actually mean? It means vitality and life. And then the biblical text

actually gives us a definition. It means the mother of all living things. Well, you might wonder, wait a minute. How can she be given a title mother of all living things when she hasn't even had any kids yet? Right. And I think this is an incredibly important principle. So what I give often when I'm teaching, I often say the Bible is more about principles and policy. We often come to the scriptures because we want policy. A plus B always to equal C. The Bible

doesn't want to primarily give us policy. There is some policy in there, but primarily it's about principles. What is A and what is B? And how does C relate to A, B, and C? Because that actually helps us think rightly about the world and about our relationships, about God himself. And so you have right off the bat this idea that God creates this woman and then Adam names her and then she gets this title, this glorious title

of the mother of all living things. Adam on his own could not... confirm and live out the mandate that God gives humanity to multiply, to flourish, to extend the glory of God into the ends of the earth. And so it was vital that he had Eve. Oh my gosh. That is exciting and brilliant. And thank you for kind of resetting the foundation of motherhood and where it started. Life's most

important moments happen around a table. A baby's first birthday, smeared frosting crinkled party hats, grandparents leaning in close, a late night heart -to -heart between teenage sisters over bowls of cereal. That sacred Thanksgiving when no one really knew what to say after the diagnosis, but the mashed potatoes still got passed. And the random Taco Tuesday where a boyfriend looks across the table and says, I'm gonna marry you someday between bites of salsa. The table holds

our stories. It remembers things even when we forget. In my faith tradition, God knew that. He designed it that way. The same is true in Scripture. The story of God happens through meals. In the beginning, God sets a table for Adam and Eve saying, eat, partake. You can eat everything except from one tree. It's all yours to enjoy.

Then sin enters the world through a meal. Later, God's people are in captivity, and God tells them the way they're going to be rescued starts with the meal that they're to prepare, where they slaughter a lamb and put its blood on the doorposts. It's a foreshadowing of Jesus, the sacrificial lamb. Then Jesus feeds thousands with the few loaves and fishes that he miraculously

multiplies. Then Jesus has a last meal. All of his friends are there, where he takes his bread and wine and tells them to eat it in remembrance of him. And after that, we read in Acts that the followers of Jesus broke bread in their homes and ate together, praising God and enjoying the favor of all the people. And the Lord added to their number daily those who were being saved. And then the story culminates in a feast called the Supper of the Lamb that we read about in

Revelation. God uses meals to shape his people. not just to nourish them, but to form them, to remind them of who they were and who He was. In the Old Testament, God gave His people commandments. They were guidelines to live by, but sometimes we forget He also gave them feasts, seven of them to be exact, sacred meals baked into the calendar, a rhythm of remembering. Each feast marked a chapter in their story, rescue, renewal, trust, abundance. These weren't holidays. They

were theology on a plate. If you've never heard of these feasts, you're not alone. But here's the point. They weren't just about rituals. They were about formation, about identity, and they still whisper something to us now, especially if you've ever held the sacred responsibility of feeding someone else. Because when you look at these feasts not as religious relics, but as signposts of spiritual power, you start to

realize power isn't always what we think. But before we step into ancient Israel and the feasts, let's acknowledge something closer to home. Because no matter how sacred these feasts are, moms have been hosting one of their own since time began. It's called every single day. Moms are the ones who nourish. We make the grocery lists, we prep lunch boxes, we spoon feed mashed bananas, cut crust into hearts, and then we make the chicken, just how they like it when they come home from

college for a visit. And at the beginning? It's not just the kitchen. It's your body. You become the meal. You are the feast and somehow it doesn't stop, not when they're teens and not when they're grown. The table gets bigger, the menu changes, but the nourishing continues. It's beautiful, yes, but let's be honest, it's also exhausting. The constancy of it, the invisibility of it, the sacred repetition of care. So if these ancient feasts seem far away, remember you're living

one right now. You prepare, you serve, you clean, you feed hearts and bodies alike. You're participating in a holy directive, maybe without even knowing it. So back to the feast. Let's start with the very first one, Passover. This is a meal that remembers rescue. God's people were enslaved in Egypt, beaten down, used up, forgotten by the world, but not by God. Passover marks the

night he brought them out. A lamb was killed, its blood smeared on doorposts, and when death came through the land, it passed over every home marked by that blood. If you've ever stood at the door of your child's room, heart thudding with prayers too deep for words you know this kind of power. It's faithful, the kind of strength that says, not on my watch. It's a protective influence, like when you make a hard call that your child won't understand for 10 years. It's

the kind of love that covers. Then it's the feast of unleavened bread. This one starts the very next day. They ate bread without yeast for a whole week. Why? Because when freedom came, it came fast. No time to let the dough rise. It's a feast of urgency and purity, a reminder to leave behind not just the land of slavery, but the habits and corruption of it too. This is the kind of wisdom moms carry in their bones. The ability to say, we don't need that. We're

headed somewhere better. The courage to travel light, to leave behind what doesn't serve the journey. That's leadership. That's influence. Next, the feast of first fruits. This feast was all about the very beginning of the harvest. The first glimpse of God's provision that Israelites would bring the first stalks of grain to God. It wasn't just gratitude. It was trust. Trust that more would come. This one's radical. Bring your first, not your leftovers. Not what's safe.

The first and best of what you have, even before the rest has come in. Moms live this way all the time. They give first, go last. They put their energy, their creativity, their very bodies on the line before they even know how things will turn out. But they do it anyway because that's what love does. It's not just sacrifice, it's sacred boldness. And then there's Pentecost and the Feast of Weeks. 50 days after first fruits,

the full harvest is in. The people bring leavened bread, yes, with yeast this time, and offer it to God. It's a feast of joy, of fullness, of shared abundance. This was never just about food, it was about pouring out. A collective reminder that what God gives isn't just for you, it's for the world. Pentecost is a feast of power. not hoarded power, but shared power. And in the New Testament, it's the day that the Holy Spirit shows up. Tongues of fire and all poured out,

not on a select few, but on everyone. Sons and daughters, old and young, including moms. Because if anyone knows what it means to pour out their strength, their sanity, their sleep, it's a mother. So yes, power isn't always a sword. Sometimes it's a meal. Sometimes it's a moment of presence. Sometimes, maybe most of the time, the most powerful person in the room is the one who prepared the

table. And if that person also got three kids fed, kept the toddler from licking the dog bowl, and remembered where the science fair poster board ended up, that's next level holy. The table was always more than furniture. It was always a place of formation, of memory, of meaning. And maybe, just maybe, that means the work you're doing night after night, meal after meal, isn't small at all. It's sacred and more powerful than

you can fathom. Next week on Bloodline and Backbone, we're talking all about community, solidarity, and sisterhood, and how it deeply shapes our experience of motherhood. Thanks for listening to Bloodline and Backbone. This has been Bloodline and Backbone. A production of Mamco Media. Created by Mandy Arioto. It was written by Emma Turnbull and Mandy Arioto. Produced by Jeremiah Shimaker. Special thanks to Catherine Winch and Joel Medamale. Music composition and sound design by Sleepy

Dog Creative. Our executive producer is Kelly Jo Smith. And our theme song is Glory by Zuri Alvarado. If this episode moved you, share it with someone who needs to hear it. And don't forget to follow the podcast so you never miss a new story. You can reach us at media at themom .co. We'll see you next time on Bloodline and Backbone.

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