Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host Rodney Olsen. Welcome to this episode of Bleeding Daylight. Please follow Bleeding Daylight on social media platforms such as Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. Links, contact details and hundreds more episodes are available now at bleedingdaylight.net. Today's episode will be difficult for some to hear.
While nothing has been sensationalized and there are no graphic details, the topic of trafficking and exploitation is still troubling. I do hope that you'll take the opportunity to hear my guest's story of healing and be inspired by the healing she is now offering to so many others. Today's guest is someone I genuinely can't wait for you to hear because she doesn't speak about healing from a distance. She has walked it herself.
Valerie Carter is the founder and director of RRT Ministries, which stands for Rescued, Redeemed, Transformed. It's a global Christ-centered ministry walking alongside survivors of human trafficking, sexual exploitation and complex trauma. She grew up in Oakland, California, facing her own profound battles with fear and anxiety and came through the other side through what she describes as a life-altering encounter with heaven.
For over 20 years, she's been turning that personal transformation into freedom for others. Valerie, welcome to Bleeding Daylight. Thank you, Rodney. Thank you for having me. I really appreciate it. What an honor. I do want to spend most of our time focused on what God has done in your life and how you're seeing that happen for others now. But before we go there, can you help me understand the brokenness that you saw around you as you were growing up? Most certainly.
I'm truly a soul that was rescued, redeemed and transformed, and I can only tell you that I've only seen God have His hand on me my entire life. But yes, I grew up in Oakland, California. I experienced five sexual abusers by the time I was 12. Some of them were sexual assault and some of it was molestation both by men and women. I just grew up in a lot of fear. I was scared a lot. I grew up in a very rough neighborhood. I couldn't play outside. It was very dangerous for me to play outside.
I just operated in a constant mentality of just being afraid, especially when I had my own children. Now it's time to just raise little girls. My fear was I do not want to happen to them what happened to me. I really started making decisions out of fear rather than out of trust in God. I did have an encounter with the Lord Jesus when I was about six or seven years old. I was in first grade.
He literally told me that the current abuse that I was literally in at that moment, that when I come out of this encounter, that He was removing me from it, and He really did. And that abuse stopped. But in that encounter, He also gave me an assignment and said, are you willing to do this hard work? And I said, yes, for sure. That's really honestly what led me to the journey of my own healing was Him going, I have an assignment for you.
So I want to heal you and walk through that loving journey with you, and then you go and you do it, because I believe healed people heal people. The abuse that you suffered when you were young, I imagine if that's all you ever knew, then that in your mind would be normal. When did it start to occur to you that other children around you were not experiencing that kind of life, that they weren't experiencing that kind of abuse? Well, no one's actually ever asked me that question.
I would like to say that, yeah, it was my normal, but I knew other little girls that were being abused as well. So I think I always knew that it wasn't right and it was wrong. I didn't like the way it made me feel. I didn't like the isolation that it brought me to. But I don't think that I thought I was alone in this. I think I pretty much knew that a lot of other little girls were going through that, especially as I grew up and went in school or summer camps.
It would always come out in these young kids where they start talking about, this is what's happening to me at home or by my neighbor or something. And it was sadly never a secret. It was just something that was kind of expected almost. And this encounter that you had with God all those years ago, what was it that God used to get through to you and let you know that He had an assignment for you? Yeah, it was actually an angelic encounter. I was sleeping next to my sister.
We were having a slumber party. She's actually my stepsister and my biological sister was on the other side. And I was the youngest of the three. An angel tapped me awake on my chest and my spirit began to rise out of my body. And I began to see things that someone my age didn't understand because I didn't know how to read the Bible and my parents were new believers. So the encounter that I had was something of a biblical proportion.
You can say I got to go into heaven and my sister was actually with me. So it was not an alone encounter. It was a team encounter. This angel took us through a doorway, through the sky as I like to say. And the Lord showed us a fountain of life and He showed me the throne room of heaven. I got to sit on Jesus' lap. This is probably the most profound, most life-changing experience that I could ever have. I sat on His lap and my right ear pressed against His chest and I could hear His heartbeat.
In that moment, my heartbeat and His heartbeat began to match together. It was as if I understood His great love for humanity and why He loved people and why He was willing to go to the cross for people. When it was time to go back to, I guess, earth, He said to me, Hey, I have this assignment for you. Are you willing to do it? And of course, when you're in the presence of God, you're all in. I was all in. Little did I know, my stepsister, she was probably around nine or ten years old.
So she was just a little older than me. She was already beginning to be exploited and trafficked by somebody else in her life, not my mom or my dad. That's why the Lord gave me that assignment. Not only that I would understand because of the things that I was experiencing as a little girl, the brokenness and the shame, but because my sister was going through it. I said yes, but I didn't know that that's what she was going through.
And I didn't really understand it until I was probably about 10 or 12, the ramifications of human trafficking. You had that assurance at that time that the healing would come, but when did the healing journey actually start for you? When did you start to see a breaking away from what was to what could be? Well, I would say in my forties. It was actually the year 2018 that I basically had been experiencing so much fear, began to be afraid to leave my house.
It was kind of a generational thing as well. My grandmother went through it and would be afraid to leave the house. I would be afraid, especially to shower home alone. There was a meeting that I had to go to at church or something, and I had just got done exercising and I had to jump in the shower really fast. I like to say I'm the fastest shower taker on both sides of the Mississippi. I could do it all within three minutes. As I got out, everybody is gone. My husband's at work.
My daughter's at school. My other daughter's at work. I heard a loud crash. That's when I fell to the floor and started to have the worst fear grip me. It squeezed my heart to the point where I felt like I was having a heart attack. I couldn't breathe, and I just kept getting this cyclical thought process, whoever's in this house today is going to kill you, but first they'll then mutilate you, and your family will find you like this. I laid there for about an hour or two.
It was a long time that I laid on the floor. I finally had the wherewithal to call on the name of Jesus because I had experienced a sexual assault at 12 years old, and as the boy was assaulting me, I called on the name of Jesus and He saved me. He sent someone to save me at that moment. So it just took me a while for some reason to call on the name of Jesus, and then I did, and something mustered up in me where I was able to get up, ran to church, went to my counselor at church.
I think I just proceeded to throw up all of my emotions for the next couple of hours, and I went home after that. In my heart, I said, wow, whatever this is, whatever this is going on, because this wasn't my first one, this was just the worst one. I said, I cannot counsel this away. Then the Lord basically brought to my attention, hey, you have put fear on the pedestal of your heart above me, and it's an idol to you. Look at all the decisions that you've made. I homeschooled my children.
I never let them stay the night at people's houses. I mean, I was very protective of my kids. Always have been, always probably will be. And when the Lord said that fear was my idol, I was undone, that I could put something above the Lord God Almighty, and I fell to my knees, and I repented for making fear my idol. All of a sudden, because I like to say I was the most Christian Christian you can Christian, on staff at church, led Bible studies, grew up like a PK kid, just everything.
As I repented, over my left shoulder is this demon that looked a lot like the venomous Spider-Man movies, screaming and pulling away from me like tar, and it went poof, and it just disappeared, and for the first time in my life, I felt like I could breathe. And I'd been an insomniac my whole life because the abuse happened in my bed, and I didn't feel like sleep was safe, so I never did that.
And that night, I laid my head down on the pillow, and I fell right to sleep, and I slept five straight hours, which for an insomniac, that's huge. And then night two, and night three, and night four, and now we're in the year 2026, and I sleep five, six hours nightly because there was a freedom, a repentance on my heart. I like to say it all came down to repentance.
Abuse, I didn't do that abuse to me, but I certainly held on to fear as my God rather than trusting in the King of Kings and the Lord of Lords. For many of us who have known Jesus for a long time, there are those moments when we encounter Him in a different way, or we suddenly learn something that we should have learned all those years ago. Was there a sense of regret that why didn't I do this earlier? No, I don't think so.
I think God is such a gentle, and sweet, and loving, and compassionate God. I think fear, because fear was my idol, and it controlled me, it was partly my rebellion. I can look back on my life and see where He was stepping in, and He would put safe people in my life, or just safe things, especially my husband, to bring a lot of healing into my life, and to learn to trust people. So I don't think there's regret. I don't wish abuse on anybody, and I wouldn't do it all over again.
But I don't think I'd change my life for anything, because there's an understanding and a compassion on my part. When I rock with a lot of the people that have come out of such abuse, I can have compassion on them and go, I know what you're feeling. I understand. Let me help you walk through it with the Word of God and what He says. I am a believer that Jesus really is the be-all, end-all, and He chooses different venues and ways to bring healing into our lives, and I'm okay with that.
There's actually no regrets. You've known the healing and release that comes from letting go of the fear and the anxiety. I imagine that's what you're wanting to pass on to these women that you're now working with. Tell me about that journey to starting the ministry. Starting the ministry, that was a whole adventure in itself.
I would say when I was probably about 15 years old, and again, would go to summer camp in third grade, fourth grade, fifth grade, and there was always a little girl that was saying, this is happening to me. I always just seemed to be in this mix of praying and loving on these girls at camp. And I'm a camper myself, but I remember the most memorable day is I'm probably a freshman in high school, and I am walking home from school, and there's a girl that is a little further in front of me.
I hear the Lord say, go talk to her. And I thought, oh, people already think I'm weird because I'm really truly that Jesus freak that they're singing about. And they always thought I was nice, but no one wanted to be my friend. And He goes, go talk to her. So I run up to her and I said, hey, can I walk home with you from school? Because we were heading in the same direction. We just talked and talked and talked. And then we eventually went to separate where we got to our separate corners there.
She says, Valerie, thank you so much. And I said, why? And she says, I was going to go home and commit suicide today. She says, but you just came and you talked to me and you befriended me. And it's kind of like God was saying, see, just obey me. Just do what I say. She didn't commit suicide. She definitely did a lot of hurting. Back then, you didn't hear a lot about self-harm, but she was already doing the self-harm.
It wasn't a big thing to know like it is today, but she was definitely doing it. And that's what the Lord would do. He would just bring slowly people to me throughout the years, mostly girls. Sometimes there were just boys. I like to say very much a discerner in the Spirit. Demons wear us like a trophy. And so I can always see that kind of abuse on people because these demons are wearing them like a gold medal and saying, look what I have. And so the Lord would always go, go talk, go connect.
And so that's really, honestly, I haven't really had to do much ministry-wise. God just brings them to me or I'll get a phone call like, hey, please, Valerie, talk to this person because she needs help. I'm not in the rescued portion. I'm in the transformation portion of ministry. God is just such a loving and compassionate God that He's like, hey, I have so-and-so on my mind.
Somehow He connects us, whether it is me standing in line at Walmart and being obedient and going talking to the girl that He tells me to go talk to, or taking a phone call that looks like spam. There are some people who will have grown up and not known a whole lot about abuse around them. And likewise, there's probably a lot of people who are unaware of what trafficking is actually all about.
There's this idea that it's something that happens in far-off countries and that people are transported across borderlines and the like. But in your experience, what is human trafficking? Yeah, that's a really great question. In 2023, when Sound of Freedom came out, it really put it on the map of, hey, this is human trafficking. People get kidnapped and, like you said, they're thrown over borderlines.
But in the arena that I'm in, I would say about 40% of the women that I serve have been sold into trafficking by a parent. When we use the word exploitation, I have one gal, she actually came onto my podcast and shared her story about how her stepmom would give her over to her neighbor and he would give her stuff for the little girl. And that's what exploitation is. It's not necessarily a change of money, but it's maybe a change of goods and it's force and coercion.
Like, if you want to eat, you have to do this for me. But a lot of them is family members selling their children into human trafficking, whether it is for their God, because not all of them are servants of the Lord God Almighty. Some of them are Satanists and some of them are just worshippers of money. You can be in the nicest of nicest neighborhoods.
And you might want to go, why is there always these fancy Lamborghinis and Mercedes and I don't know other fancy cars, but showing up and they're all in and out. And it's probably a trafficking ring that happens in everyday neighborhoods. It doesn't have to be in the hood. It's happening in Hollywood. It's happening in everyday neighborhoods. It's sadly even happening in the house of God, where unfortunately, people who claim to love the Lord are doing bad things. It happens in temple worships.
It happens all over the place. I don't know one woman or one gal that has ever been kidnapped. It was always a trusted member of the family or someone who comes in kind of like that knight in shining armor type thing. And then it's like, well, hey, you kind of owe me. So then they go to sell their supposed loved ones, you know, husband selling their wives. It's honestly disgusting. And it kind of starts with pornography. In our world today, pornography is out in the open.
And you can go to the mall and look at pornography. It's everywhere. We have the easiest access to that. A lot of these girls in the porn industry, they are forced to be there. A lot of them are under 18 and they're forced to be there. They're tricked to be there. They're thinking they're going to have a modeling career or something like that. The person on the other end that gets addicted to it, then it's not enough.
Then they end up crossing the line and buying what they think is a prostitute of someone that wants to do this. But really, a lot of these girls are forced because no little girl wakes up one day and says, you know what I want? I want a prostitute Barbie for Christmas. They want to be mamas and they want to be doctors and lawyers and hairdressers and fun things like that. They don't wake up and say, I want to sleep with tens of thousands of men on a regular basis.
So I believe it starts in the porn industry. What happens is it's not enough. And then our children, our children are being sold because what they're seeing in a movie or on paper is not enough. There will be people who would say that can't possibly be true. Not in our area. It doesn't happen. But I imagine in the same way that when abuse happens, we know that the perpetrators will often threaten and say, we must stay silent about this or this will happen.
That exactly the same thing is happening when women are being trafficked and girls are being trafficked. There is this overbearing expectation and understanding that you must stay silent, that you mustn't tell anyone about it. And that that really is a big part of the enemy's ploy is telling these girls, you mustn't speak about this to anyone. Some of them are beat. This is all they know.
If you just think about it, you know, a lot of these girls begin starting at 12, 13, 14 years old, maybe younger, like my sister. It's all they know. And so they're told you couldn't do any better than me. You would not eat if it wasn't for me. Well, why don't they just leave? They literally are sometimes trapped and they have no way out because this is all they know. You know, now they have no education.
A lot of these traffickers, which they look like you and me, Rodney, they look like normal, everyday people. I actually had one gal that the Lord goes, go talk to her and is in Walmart. And she ended up being the same age as my daughter at the time. She was only 18 and she's pregnant. And her mother had sold her into trafficking. And she said, at first, it took me a while to like warm up. I eventually got to take her out to dinner.
She said, I didn't trust you at first because I thought you were a trafficker because they look like everyday people and they trick them. When it comes to abuse, maybe molestation or even rape, they say these things and they'll say, well, no one will ever believe you. Who's going to believe you? And sometimes these traffickers or these groomers set up situations where that person will look like a liar. So see, they'll never believe you. They'll never trust you.
There's so many tactics, just keeping them enslaved. In a world where these young women have only known abuse, they've only known people that are taking advantage of them. How do you start to gently walk them along and help them understand that there is a loving God who wants more for their life? I love that. Thank you for asking that question. Time. Our wounds don't heal when we cut ourselves all at once. It takes time. I do a program called The Great Exchange.
It's a prayer model where we're just constantly praying and walking through just everyday life, maybe just showing them what a good friend looks like. What does a trusted person look like that doesn't want anything from you but to be your friend? Time is huge on that one. Patience. Sometimes, because this is all they know, they're liable to turn right back on me and be vicious. And then the whole thing is like, okay, how can I be more like Jesus and be compassionate?
Because I do know that this is all you know. I work more specifically with women in transition homes that are already rescued. I fund rescue operations, but then I get to go in and help walk them through. Really, Rodney, it's just being patient and knowing that wounds take time to heal. It's not something that happens overnight. Some of these people are experiencing abuse for a decade or more. It's going to take a decade or more to heal.
What seems to be the response from these women when they start to get these breakthrough moments? I know, as you say, it takes a long time for that complete healing. It's going to take many years, but there must be those breakthroughs along the way, and there must be a sense of relief for them that, hey, eventually this can be over. Yeah. I have one gal that just recently really walked through forgiving the abusers in her life. She couldn't even speak their name.
She would just grit and bear it and say, oh, I'm so angry. To watch the transformation of going, okay, you forgiving the abuser does not excuse them from the abuse. What it does is it frees you. Just kind of the light bulb of going, you get to be free. God will have his justice on them, but you get to be free. We enter into another situation where somebody else is talking about their abuse, and she began to get triggered.
What was so cool was there was three of us around her, and we said, let's stop and pray. Let's talk to the Lord. Let's walk this through. We began to do that, and it was like something just rested on her. She felt so much peace and so much joy after we were done praying of going, I have never let go of something like this so quickly. It was literally because we did that exchange of what I like to call the great exchange of going, okay, hold on, Lord. Let me give it back to you and not be angry.
The light bulb moments just come in moments like that where they're triggered at one point and, okay, let's walk through it. Let's talk about it. Then we move on because we've prayed it through. Then we go and eat, or we go and do something fun. I would say that it's just those very simple light bulb moments of hashing it out, praying, and then giving it to the Lord and going, okay, let's move on.
You mentioned forgiveness there, and I think there's often a misunderstanding around forgiveness that it means that we just now pretend that this never happened and the person is completely excused, and yet we're not called to go back into an abusive situation. We don't necessarily have to reconcile with that person. Speak to me a little about that and the experience for those women when they realize, no, I'm not asking you to put yourself back in a harmful place.
Yeah, God doesn't ask us to forgive for the other person. God asks us to forgive for us. Jesus gives us the model prayer, and He says, and forgive me of my sins as I forgive those that have sinned against me. He also says, the Father God cannot forgive you unless you forgive. So, no, we never say you have to walk back into that arena. It doesn't even pardon that person's sins. We know that God's going to take care of it. Now, does that mean that we need to call the police?
Do we need to report it? Oh, yeah. Well, what if they're this big-name person? We've seen that here in Texas not too long ago, a big-name pastor. Someone finally reported it and brought charges against him, and God is a God of justice, and He says, they will pay the penalty, but in the meantime, I just need you to forgive and let go. It doesn't mean we have to let them back in. I have never let my abusers back in. I never encouraged to let abusers back in.
I do have one gal that she has allowed her abuser back in her life, but there are boundaries, because it's apparent. There's boundaries and clear understanding, and there's forgiveness, but that's the most important thing, if I may say what unforgiveness does to us, Rodney. I not only have sexual abusers, but I have emotional abusers, and I have physical abusers, and it's just terrible. It's just how people treat other people. It's not always great. I remember it was 2017.
Someone tells me something about this person, and I get so angry. I'm literally driving from one state into another, and I felt something grip my heart, and I was so angry, going, I don't understand why this person is always doing this and wants to hurt and manipulate. I hate them, and at that moment, I chose, I am not going to forgive them, and the Lord had reminded me. He had warned me, actually, when I was in my 20s.
I worked in an emergency room, and there was this family that would come in, and they were losing their sight. They were losing their hearing. All their pets died of cancer and constantly sick, and it was about six months of them coming back and forth to the emergency room before they figured out that they had black mold growing in their house, and I heard the Holy Spirit say, Unforgiveness is like black mold, and of course, it causes cancer, causes us to go blind and deaf, and even kills us.
I remember thinking as that very arrogant 20-year-old knowing everything, and I said, Oh, Lord, I'm going to use that one day. I'm going to remember that for when you have me teaching, because I always knew you would have me teaching. Here in 2017, I'm so angry and like, Oh.
Fast forward a year, 2018, my mother-in-law is actually speaking at an event, at a woman's event, and I hear the Holy Spirit say, I want you to look around the room and tell me what you see, and I looked around the room, and I said, Oh, I see a bunch of survivors, and I heard the Lord say, Well, what are you, Valerie? And I said, I'm an overcomer, and He goes, That's right.
That is your message, and that's what you're going to preach, and I thought, Just so you know, those breast cancer survivors are not going to like that, and what does it mean to be a survivor? I'm in a car accident. I lived through the car accident, but maybe I injured my leg, and now I have to have a rod in my leg, and I have to put my handicap sign up, and I can't walk long distance. I survived the car crash, but I'm just living through it.
The Holy Spirit told me that, and I said, I'm going to remember that. That's so good. Oh, those breast cancer survivors, and God goes, Don't worry. I already have all that taken care of, and I said, Okay. One year later from that, 2019, it's Christmas Day, and I find a lump of my breast, and I thought, Oh, and I knew it was cancer. The Lord asked me, Are you willing to get on this bullet train with me, or are you going to be left behind?
I said, I think I'm going to get on the train with you, and I had princess parking, and I had five specialists, and I asked all five of them, Why did I get cancer? And they kept saying, You know, we don't know why you got cancer. You don't carry the HERD gene. None of those things. My last one, she was a doctor who happens to be a believer, and she says, Valerie, you should go home and ask God, Why did you get cancer? And I said, Okay. No problem.
I'll do that, and I'm standing in the same spot that I was delivered from the spirit of fear, and I said, God, why did I get cancer? And he clapped back so fast. He says, You got cancer from your unforgiveness. And I was like, Oh. And I'm, of course, I'm thinking back to all the different little things that he has said to me throughout the years of what unforgiveness does to me. My hatred for that person didn't do anything to that person. What it did was, it literally ate me alive.
Deuteronomy 28 says, If you obey me, then all these blessings will come. But if you disobey me, sin pursues you. And it even talks about how it will consume you and eat at you and cause mold and mildew to grow. And I'm like, That was what was happening in my heart. And I was very repentant and asked the Lord to forgive me. And He was so good because, like I said, I had Francis Parking through my whole journey of cancer.
But is it really worth holding on to unforgiveness of the people that hurt us? Probably not, because God will have His justice on them. He is faithful and He doesn't act outside of His character. So He will. We often think in terms of scale, of where am I on this particular scale? And I can imagine people listening at the moment thinking, I haven't gone through the things that Valerie has. I haven't gone through the things that those people who have been trafficked have.
I know that I've suffered abuse. I know that there has been some exploitation in my life and some trauma, but it's not that bad. And yet we still know that that needs healing. So if someone is listening and that's where they're at at the moment, what would your words be to them? Trust the Lord. He is a compassionate, loving, forgiving, merciful God. There's healing on the other side, and that's what He wants to do with you. And in Isaiah 61, it says that He gives beauty for ashes.
He's going, I want to take all of those things that have literally meant to destroy you with, and I want to bring you beauty. What I love about Isaiah 61 is, He says, hey, I makes this proclamation. I'm here to set the captives free. But that's not where it ends. What He does is, in the process of setting the captives free, what I'm going to do is, I heal you. You're going to go and you're going to heal, and I'm going to rebuild ruins.
I'm going to turn everything that was just awful and make it for good. And I like to put it as the Kintsugi vase, which is this Japanese art where they take broken pottery. God says, I am the potter and you are the clay, and He molds us into this beautiful vase. But then the devil comes along, just life comes along and picks up the vase and throws it on the ground and shatters us.
However, God goes, okay, what I'm going to do is, I'm going to pick one piece up at a time, and I'm going to put it back together, and I'm going to glue it back together. But what I'm going to do is, I'm going to mold it and meld it together with gold. So even though you have all these scars, I'm going to take it, I'm going to take you, this shattered vase that is now worth nothing, and I'm going to put you back together. I'm going to make you more valuable than what you started out to be.
Do the exchange with Him and know that that's what He went to the cross for. Actually, in Isaiah 53, He says, first I came to heal. I bear the griefs of people. Then I came to heal the body. And I believe that our body holds on to trauma, and when we let go of it, we actually see healing. I have one gal, she has experienced probably the worst trauma that I've ever heard in my entire life, and she went blind and everything.
And the moment she began to let go of some things and began to forgive, her eyesight came back. God didn't do that to her. He's not the author of our trauma. He is the Redeemer and the healer of that. And if we could just go, it's okay to ask God. He loves questions. If you're real, do something, and He will. If you really, truly love me, fix me. But we have to let Him in to do so.
I'm sure there are people listening at the moment who are thinking, I wish there was something that I could do to help with what Valerie is doing. And I know that people can donate online at your website, but are there other things that people can do to contribute to stamp out trafficking and help those who have been exploited? A lot of kids in foster care end up getting trafficked and abused.
In our ministry, we have our boots on the ground that is actually rescuing children, but then I am actually creating a whole healing curriculum for kids' camps. We are always in need of volunteers. What does a volunteer look like? I need an artist, someone that can draw for me. I need someone that can put music together. So there are more than one way to volunteer, not just of our money, but of our time and our talents. So I welcome that.
Please, if you feel like God is calling you into that and doing something exciting like that for the children, please contact me at rrtministries.org. Valerie, I just want to say thank you so much for sharing your story, for being so open with it, and thank you for spending time with me today on Bleeding Daylight. Thank you so much, Rodney. I appreciate it. Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others.
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