Wherever there are shadows, there are people ready to kick at the darkness until it bleeds daylight. This is Bleeding Daylight with your host, Rodney Olsen. Welcome to Bleeding Daylight. I'm so glad you're listening. Please follow Bleeding Daylight on social media such as Facebook, Instagram, YouTube and TikTok. You'll find links, contact details and hundreds of additional episodes at bleedingdaylight.net.
I always enjoy speaking to people from around the world on Bleeding Daylight, but there's something special in talking to a friend from my home city. Today's guest lives in Perth, Western Australia, and he has some great things to say about the way forward as the years tick past. How do we set ourselves up to finish well? It's not only something older people should be thinking about.
I'm really excited to introduce today's guest, someone who's spent decades in ministry and now has some fascinating insights about what comes after the so-called golden years. John Finkelde led a local church through incredible growth and change. While he planned and implemented a successful handover to a new ministry to his team some years ago, he's not buying into the traditional retirement narrative. Now he's helping us rethink what our 60s, 70s and 80s can actually look like.
And honestly, it's a conversation we all need to have. John, welcome to Bleeding Daylight. Great to be here with you, Rodney, chatting about the latter years of life. Now I've heard plenty of people say that retirement isn't mentioned in the Bible. I've got to be honest, John, while I agree that we are called to serve, no matter what our age, I feel weary just thinking about working forever and dropping off the perch at the end of that. Is there a better way to think about our latter decades?
I think there is. I had a major shift in my thinking during my 40s. I used to joke with people about, I don't want to get old. And then I would go really silly because in your 40s, you're not always that wise. I would say, I'd be happy to die at 74 or 72. Something like that. People would tell me off and I'd laugh and go, you know, I don't really want to get old, but I'm actually 72 now, so I'm glad I've changed my mind.
And I was driving to visit someone who was in our church who wasn't well, and I saw a beautiful sunset. And I just sensed the Holy Spirit say to me, your sunset years will be glorious. I just had this awareness that I think the Lord was gently chiding me to say, stop with the foolish talk, John. You'll live as long as the years I give you, so cut out the rubbish, but also begin to look at your latter years as a glorious thing rather than the thing to be afraid of.
And I think that started me on a real journey of rethinking my latter years. Retirement, a friend said to me years ago, retirement is a broken concept, which I agree with. Bismarck was the Chancellor of Germany in the 19th century, came up with the 65 year line of that's when you retire. And of course, most people back then weren't living to 65, so it was easy enough to say.
But I started to wrestle with this whole concept from my 40s and 50s and came up with this thought, I'm never going to retire. I'm just going to redesign my life as I age. Not that I want to be working 40, 50 hours a week as I had done as a pastor and consultant, but to actually just shift gears as I age. And so that's really helped me shape my thinking in a fresh way as I hit my 60s and now into my 70s.
It is interesting because we, I guess the two sides to it, we see those who say, I just can't wait to retire and do nothing. But there are also people who are afraid of retirement because they believe that their worth is all wrapped up in the things that they do, the work that they've done. And they feel that if I stop working, I lose that credibility. I lose that respect and I'm actually not worth it for anyone. I'm not worthy of respect from people.
Either side of that, it's not a helpful way to think about it. We don't just stop work and everything's relaxation, but neither do we have to fear coming to the end of the normal work patterns that we've seen over earlier years. Yeah. And I think it requires a good level of thinking about your 60s, 70s, 80s. And look, a lot of people are in their 90s. My wife's mum is 99. My mum turns 99 in a few months' time and my dad passed at 96. So I've got genes there that will probably see me into my 90s.
And I think it's the way you think about it and look at it. And I think related to that identity thing, I think you do need to find your identity in various aspects of your life, not just in one. As a believer, you have an identity of the fact that Jesus loves me and died for me. But also I'm a son, I'm a husband, I'm a father, I'm a grandfather. These all feed into my identity. I'm a pastor, a consultant, a coach, I'm a friend, I'm a traveller, I'm a blogger, I'm a YouTuber.
All these things are part of your identity. And I think it's working out all aspects of your identity so that your identity isn't just shaped by, well, I'm an accountant and that's all I am. If you've got that approach, then I think you need to broaden your definition of what flows into your life to create a sense of identity and a sense of purpose. Because I think the key thing, Rodney, when I turned 60, a remarkable thing happened to me in the next 12 months.
I began to think about my mortality way more than I had for the previous 60 years. I began to realise like, oh, I can see the end, I can see the finishing line. It might be decades away, but it's coming more rapidly. Then I found even into my 70s, a change of pace in my life that I didn't want to be travelling as much, I didn't want to do as much. And my financial advisor talked to me about this and said, John, if you want to travel and do a bundle of things, do it all before you're 80.
He said, I've seen too many people get to 80, decide to travel and their health and their energy won't really let them do it. I was reading a great book, Die With Zero, recently, and the author talked about the 60s are the go-go season when you maybe finish work or slow down your work. The 70s are the go-slow and the 80s are the no-go. Now, some people probably say, hang on, I know an 80-year-old who's still plenty of go. Well, that's true.
But the general populace, I think there's a truth in that. Then shaping your life to fit those energy and health levels in a way that's still purposeful. It's interesting, Rodney, but 40% of Australian men in their early 70s are still working at some level. Now, a lot of them would be working part-time, but I read this in the Australian newspaper recently, and 10% of Australian men in their late 70s are still working.
So I think it's a reshaping of our thinking of what work looks like, how we work, how much emotional, physical capacity we need for the work we want to do. But I think the lever to pull hard is the lever of redesign rather than the lever of retirement. I mentioned in the introduction that you had an effective succession planning in your church. So you weren't just going to say, I'm the lead pastor, I'm going to hang on forever.
But you actually were considering more than just yourself and your job security. You wanted to hand over. So what age were you when you started thinking through that and started implementing a plan to say, I'm entering a different phase now? I handed over our church when I was 58, which is probably youngish to a degree. But I would say I started thinking about that 10 years before that, because I knew it would come. I tend to have a mind that does project into the future.
So I knew the day would come. And I also had aspirations for many years to do some form of training, pastors, coaching, consulting. I couldn't frame it in those words if you'd asked me, but I wanted to do something else rather than just pastor a church, which is a phenomenal opportunity and privilege that I had for 30 years. So I kind of really worked around the thought that, you know what, the future is going to turn up whether I want it to or not. Can I prepare myself for it?
And then spent a fair bit of time thinking, one, about the succession transition in our church to do that well in a healthy way for the benefit of our church. And also then for my own benefit and my family to actually go, well, I want to do something post-pastoring. My dad retired at 60, never worked another day in his life until 96. He would love having to gamble on the horses. He'd have a beer every day. He'd go fishing and prawning.
For 36 years, dad complained that he said the only problem with being retired is I never get another public holiday. I said, dad, every day is a holiday with you. And he was very happy doing that, pulled the retirement lever. I don't want to work. I don't want to do much. I want to fish, prawn, crab, enjoy my grandkids, and that'll do me. But I know the way I'm wired, that was never going to suit me.
So I did a lot of prep work, groundwork, if you like, to get ready for this phase of my life, which has paid off. I guess that's the key. You say, it was never going to work for me. And so it's really not thinking about, OK, here's the pattern. At age 60, you do this. At age 70, you do this and so on and so forth. It's more a case of how am I wired? How has God gifted me? And you moved into consultancy and talking to people about growing a healthy church.
That's been wonderful for so many churches because you're not talking about just how to grow numbers. And we've had plenty of those movements, but how to grow health into the church. Hopefully that is numeric growth as well. But the emphasis has been on a healthy church. How important is that? I think it's so important that pastors and church leaders focus on not growth, because growth is something you can't control really that much.
And Paul said, you know, I've planted a polis water and God gives the growth. And I think you can turn yourself inside out as a pastor trying to get growth happening. And I would say all pastors would be like me. We'd all admit to the fact that, yep, I really chase growth. When it didn't turn up, I thought, what's wrong with me? What's wrong with my people? What's wrong with God? What's going on here?
So I found the switch in my own life and pastoring to focus actually on the wellbeing of my church. How healthy are our Sunday services? How healthy are our volunteers? Our walk with Jesus? Our small groups? Our financial wellbeing? How healthy are all these aspects of the life of our church? Because you can impact your health. I think we know that physically. Go and eat at McDonald's three meals a day for a month and see how you feel after a month. You won't feel great, trust me.
I wouldn't even try that. But if you really eat well and eat good food for a month, you do actually feel better in yourself rather than snacking on Tim Tams at midnight. I think you can do things that change health, that make you healthier or make you sicker. I think a pastor then can get some semblance of control, if you like. I don't know if you ever control pastoring or a church, but you get a semblance of, you know what? I can focus on some things that can move the needle here.
I can actually make our Sunday services healthier. Now, will we grow? And I say to pastors, look, work with me for a couple of years. I'll guarantee your church will get healthier. It won't be perfect, never will be. But growth, will it grow? I don't have a clue. It might. But if it doesn't, at least you'll be healthier. And it's far more enjoyable having a healthier body than a sick body. You'll enjoy the church more.
Church will enjoy you more because you won't be as frenetically trying to grow the church. You'll be focused on some really important things around health. So I think it's a good focus for pastors. I think it de-stresses a lot of pastors when they realise there's another option besides chasing growth. So throughout the years that you've run this consultancy, I guess you have continued to project into the future and say, well, I don't want to be running at this pace forever.
You've mentioned the fact that, you know, you had a very hectic travel schedule and you've been able to pull that back at least a little. Have you consistently right throughout that period been looking, okay, what's the next? How do I set things up well for the next and the next and the next? And how do we go about planning that and thinking it through? That's a really good question. And I think it is related to the fact of what's in front of you immediately and then what's five years out.
During the 14 years we've been running Grow a Healthy Church, the first five, six years, I just went absolutely frenetically trying to grow a consultancy ministry. In the first 10 months, I did 72 flights. That's a ridiculous number of flights. That's probably averaging two a week. I wouldn't do that now. I couldn't cope with that now. But at 58, I was strong enough and energetic enough and healthy enough to do it.
So the first five or six years, the basic plan was work hard, pray hard, ask the Lord to favour you and work all the hours you need to make it work. And then after that time, you're going to go, okay, we've got a rhythm we've established now. We're beyond the foundation phase. Let's start thinking about the next phase. And that's when I began to just slow it down a little bit. Two years ago, I got pneumonia. And that was actually a big turning point.
I got really ill and had the ongoing consequences of pneumonia for a number of months. My health really got smashed around significantly. And my travel had died off during COVID. It was very hard to get on a plane and go anywhere. But it kind of picked up again, but nowhere near the pre-COVID stage. And I remember sitting down with Diana as I was coming out of my pneumonia health battle and saying, look, I don't think I can keep doing what I have been doing. We're going to have to change.
There's some level of planning that went into it. But then suddenly you're faced with the reality. I don't want to go at that pace anymore. I can't go at that pace. And so we began to plan what's the alternatives. Instead of me flying to places to do consulting, pastors now fly into Perth. And I promote the iconic Scarborough Beach. We live in Scarborough. And I say, come and watch the sunset on the beach.
Hang out with me for three days and we'll do a getaway consult here, which has been super successful. Pastors have come last year and again, more coming this year, just to sit on the beach and talk and share and help them with their churches. That was kind of forced upon us, but in some ways I knew it was coming. But then to be able to pivot and redesign. So I won't get on many planes at all this year for ministry.
I think I've got a holiday over in New Zealand, but for ministry, very little travel. The redesign has actually rebooted me in a lot of ways. I've started a YouTube channel. I'm publishing more books now. So there's been a redesign that's kind of come because it had to. And I think if I was advising someone else that was in their 60s, I would say, look, your 70s are going to be not go-go. They're going to be go slow comparatively to your 60s.
So begin to rethink how you're looking at your life in your 70s. Maybe just reschedule some things. Rodney, I'd see myself working till 80. I don't have any problem. I've got another eight years to go till 80. I don't have any problem seeing myself working, but I won't be working to the pace I was three years ago in my late 60s. I probably won't even be working to the pace I'm working now. People say, are you retired? And I say, no, I'm semi-working.
I'm not semi-retired because I won't use the word retired. I just don't like the word. I don't like the flavour of it. I say I'm semi-working so I can adjust my hours. I can have a day with my grandsons if they want to hang out with Grandad for a day. If I want to go and sit in a cafe and drink a lot of coffee and read the newspaper, I can do that for a day if I want to. So I think that rolling redesign, and quite honestly, I'm actually looking forward to my 80s.
Now, if you talk to John Finkelty when he was 45, he would have mocked, he would have mocked me, said, what do you think he'd know for? But my 80s, I can see my 80s being quite a flourishing decade in terms of what you can do these days with the online ministry and writing and so on. And what I'm hearing there is that there's a couple of things coming into play. Firstly, there's your planning that I need to change the way that I'm working.
But also, sometimes things come along as we age that we don't expect, such as your illness that caused you to have to rethink. And so there is this constant pivoting, isn't there? But it's not always on our terms. How did you feel when that was happening? And what did you have to say to God at that point saying, hey, look, you can't settle me with illness. I'm doing your work.
Look, I think it was a bit of a convergence of both my illness and then also me at the same time going, you know what, I've been traveling for 12 years solid, a lot of flights, averaging 40, 50 flights a year, a lot of hotels, motels, a lot of time away from home, even though a lot of it was two or three nights, short trips and so on. You get weary of sleeping in a motel or a hotel and some of them were not five star. Most of them were not five star. So you get a bit weary of that.
You get a bit weary of eating at different hours and different times. It wasn't always healthy for my body as well. So I think there was a convergence of, you know what, I feel like I need to swing something different. But me being the way I'm wired, just full steam ahead, don't bother stopping. And when I got pneumonia, my body, I think my body was talking to me very straight and saying, you are not 58 anymore. You can't keep this up.
You have to change and I'm going to make you change and really stop me dead in my tracks, which I think when I sat down with Diane, it was quite fascinating when you have these conversations with your wife. We've been married 48 years. We sat down, I said, I think I'm ready to change gears. And she said, I've been waiting for this conversation. She had seen it coming, man.
It was like, oh no, she's noticed the slowdown of energy, the slowdown of pace, the longer to recover from, you know, a solid travel time or a difficult consult, a challenging consult. So I think it was just timely. I'm very much Rodney with the thought that when opportunities finish, when seasons stop, I go, there's always something new. There's always another season. There's always a, I know it's a cliche, a door closes, a window opens and all that.
But when the thought came and it came from a completely unusual source of why are you traveling? Why don't you get people to travel to you? Let them fly over to you and enjoy Perth. I mean, we live in paradise, Rodney. When she said that to me, this lady, and she's an email guru, she's not even a believer. I said, I should have thought of this five years ago, because people love the idea of coming to a beachside place, enjoying a different pace.
I think it'd be something I'll be doing for quite a few years yet, the getaway consult. If something stops working, let's go find something that does work is my faith approach to it. I see all the pieces continuing to fit together, that time as a pastor for many years and seeing the ups and downs of that. And anyone who believes that being a pastor is all smooth sailing needs to look into it. So there's all of that experience.
Then there's the experience, as you say, that first year of 72 different flights and going into churches and seeing what's happening. So you're getting a wider breadth of information about how churches are operating. And it's all that information that you've gained, all that learning that you've gained, that you're trying to help these churches, that now allows you to have people come to you.
And you've got such a broad experience across all those churches that just having someone come away, you're able to speak into their lives and into their churches in a way that perhaps you wouldn't have been able to if you hadn't done that visiting earlier. So there's a constant learning, isn't there? We don't stop learning. I think that's so true. And that's the beauty of the stage of life of your 60s, 70s, and your 80s. You don't stop gaining knowledge. You don't stop gaining wisdom.
I provoke so many pastors who are in their 60s who are looking at what's next, I'm finishing up, and saying, well, you can't just go and play golf and fish. Come on. You've got all that wisdom that younger pastors need from you. So let's look at how you can think about, at least give some thought to energizing that wisdom to others. And you're right.
The switch of consulting has been quite markedly different because you know as well as I do, Rodney, that retreats for any leader are a fabulous thing where you can get away unplugged from the work life and dial down. And it gives you a chance to think macro, 30,000 foot level, looking down, bigger picture. And especially for people from the east, a sunset over the ocean is quite a magical thing for people from the east. For us every day, we could sit at the beach and look at it.
But for them, it's like, oh, and so one of the meals that we have on the getaway is actually down at the beautiful restaurant at City Beach, Hamptons. I generally time it so we can be there when the sunset's going down so they can enjoy a beautiful meal, watch the sunset. You know what happens over the three days?
They slow down, they unplug, they definitely delve into areas of their life and their future that I found didn't happen so much when I was flying into them because their schedule was still going full belt while they were kind of consulting with me. But this way I've found with every getaway consult so far is really focused quite considerably on the pastor and often with their spouse and their future and who they are and where they're going, which has been a lot of fun.
It's different, but it's also a lot of fun. I know that the things that you do are not so that people know about John Fincelti, that's not the aim. It's all about, let's shine the light on Jesus. But in many ways, you continue to leave a legacy. You left a legacy when you handed over that church well. You've left a legacy in consulting with churches and say, have you thought about this? This is a way to do church in a more healthy, consistent, and I guess productive way in some senses.
So you're leaving that legacy there. You're also leaving a legacy in that even when the time comes that you can't do any more consulting, you've written a number of books. Tell me about some of the books that you've been able to write in the last couple of years. Yeah, I've connected up with a friend of mine in the Netherlands and he talked to me and I'd written a few books self-published and they were kind of out there and not doing an awful lot.
And he had a lengthy talk to me about why don't we partner up together? I want to help you get your content out into a series of healthy church leadership books that I think could have a real impact. So we sat down, he did some analysis. He kind of created this whole system of looking at what people are looking for on Amazon in terms of church leadership. And so we came up with a plan for five books.
Two are already published, Financial Intelligence for Church Leaders and Church Financial Excellence. So the first two are on finances, personal in church. The next one which is coming out is on Sunday church growth strategies. Every pastor is fascinated by church growth. So do a full blown look at that. Then I've got another book coming out on succession in line with the fact of having successfully done that with our own church and consulting now with churches over succession.
Then I've got another book coming out on pastoral well-being, sustainable ministry lifestyles of avoiding burnout, making sure you're emotionally healthy and all those areas. And that's the five, initial five that'll be in the series. And they've all got similar design. And they're designed to kind of work like, I'm sure you've read one of these kind of crime novelists or the Jack Reacher novel. You read one and then you find out there's 57 of them out there and, oh, I'll grab another one.
The concept with the series of books is that, oh, I'll read one. Oh, that's good. Has this guy got any more? And on we go. And so overall, my goal would be over the next five years to publish at least 10 books in this series of healthy church leadership. And it's kind of repurposing a lot of the content I've produced already on video and audio and repurposing that into a written content series that if I can get to 10 books with that series, I'll be super wrapped with that.
And it'll serve people for a while and then it will be outdated and I'll be long gone to heaven and that's okay. I'm happy for it to serve a purpose in our generation. And that's also why I kind of got into YouTube a couple of years ago and started my YouTube channel and started really doing that. It's a bit of a hobby I find. YouTube's a bit of fun. So I'm enjoying that as well.
And again, that's a legacy thing of building a library of content there that pastors can access completely free of charge. Don't have to buy a book. Just go and watch YouTube on your TV and grow a healthy church. We'll be there to help you along the way. And it seems to me that the book series is incredibly practical because so often we read books that are helping us spiritually, but there's just the day-to-day, how do I operate with this?
And with those first two about the financial side of a church, that can be really difficult and they're things that need to be done. And it's hard to get to the spiritual side of things and see that spiritual growth, that spiritual healthiness, if we're still having to come to grips with some of the practical day-to-day running of a church. So I guess that's a big part of your intention, isn't it?
I think anyone who reads me or watches me or follows me in any sort of way will know that I'm very wired pragmatically at this stage of my ministry life. If it works, well, as long as it's got a good theological framework and a good biblical foundation, it's not about just finding anything that works regardless of the ethics or the theology. I'm not into that. If it's got a good theological framework, you've got good biblical frameworks and theology as well.
Then let me give you some tools on the how-tos of the day-to-day of leading a church into a place of great health. My writings, my videos, my books are all about, if I can say this, paint by numbers. If someone says to me, oh, I read your book and it was so simple and clear, it was easy to understand, I take that as a huge compliment.
If someone reads any of my content and says, too dense, I couldn't quite understand what you're saying, I know I've failed completely because I want to help people with those practicals. I think a lot of pastors have their theology, their Bible worked out to a great degree, their pastoral skills generally are really fabulous of loving people and leading people to Christ and into being a disciple. But it's often the pragmatics of leadership around leading and running a church that can be lacking.
I'm just trying to fill a bit of a gap there with that content and hopefully it helps someone. I'm sure that through all the consults that you've done, also the books now starting to flow out, the information that people are gaining from YouTube that there have been people that have come back to you and have said, you know what, this has really made a difference, that we've been able to build a healthier church and we've seen God doing amazing things.
Is there perhaps one or two stories where it's really made a difference for a church that you've just felt, yes, it's all been worth it? One of my friends said to me, they'd been chatting to a pastor I'd been working with, and the pastor then said to the guy I'd been working with, he said, sounds like you've been finkeldied. So I turned my name into a verb. I've had quite a few guys around Australia who've been finkeldied.
I remember one of the first guys I worked with on a consult, rocked up, spent a few days with him. He was at the end of the rope. At the end of the consult, he said to me, if you had not turned up, I don't think I could have kept going in ministry. When you hear that from a pastor, you know that that's heartfelt, that they've had a tough season, but now they've got some hope, they've got some light, and also some very practical steps on how to move forward.
I think of another church, the pastor will tell me quite regularly, and I've worked with this church for about six or seven years, you know what, John, we're doing a lot of what we're doing because of what you told me. A pastor I've worked with in the UK wrote to me recently, and a photo popped up on Google Photos, remember this year, and it was pre-COVID, where I was doing quite a bit of work in the UK.
And it made me both really, wow, what a great memory, and then sad because COVID really messed up with that whole travel area, trying to get back there. And I took a screenshot of the photo, grabbed the photo, sent it to my friend in the UK and said, really good memories of working with you guys. He wrote back to me and said, you know what, a lot of what you did for us over those years of working with us laid a brilliant foundation for what we're doing today. And this is six or so years later.
There's a whole bundle of videos on my YouTube channel of pastors talking about the impact of what we've been able to do. And to be honest, Rodney, whenever people ask me about the impact, I say, look, without the favour of Jesus Christ, none of this would happen. It's the Lord's favour. And you combine that with just good, consistent, solid hard work year in, year out, and you'll see fruit, you'll see effectiveness, you will see fruitfulness in a way that just warms your heart.
But without the Lord's goodness, this wouldn't have happened. So he needs to get all the applause, not me, I'm happy to give him more. You've obviously found a good way of moving through the different decades. And as you say, there are changes that have happened, some that you've planned, some that have been foisted upon you, but there are these changes that continue.
But right at the start of our conversation, you were talking about, it's a matter of what's working for you and how you think through these things. For someone who's listening and thinking, you know what, I'm not quite there yet, but I agree, I need to start thinking about how things will change in the coming decades. What's a good starting place for them? Can I recommend a book?
Not one of my books, I would love to have written this book, but I read a book recently, that's my book of the year, it's called Die With Zero. And it's such a brilliant book that probably frames up what's become a lot of my philosophy around ageing. You really need to think long and hard about the decades ahead of you. And he has this particular thing, he says he doesn't believe in bucket lists, he believes in five-year time buckets.
He said, don't do a bucket list between now and the end of your life, do a list of the next five years. What bucket things do you want to tick off in the next five years? And I think if you can bring your future forward into today, in a real thinking, sitting down with a coffee, one of your favourite relaxing places and think, well, what do I want to do at 60? What do I want to do at 70? What will my life look like at 80?
And you might be listening to this and be 30 and think, I never would think about that in all my days. But if you did, you probably would live differently through your 30s, 40s, 50s, and so on. So I would say, have a look at that book, Die With Zero. But if you don't feel like reading or listening to a book, I would say, just sit down and think, what are my 50s, my 60s, my 70s, my 80s, what will they look like?
I think it's important that whatever it looked like for your parents or your grandparents, it can look very different for you. My dad, I said, retired at 60, didn't work any other day for 36 years before he passed. He was very happy. And maybe that's what will be good for you. That's what you'll look forward to. Good, plan for it, do it, jump into it.
But I think because people are healthier at a later age now, I think people are going to go, you know what, I'm 71, I haven't got a job to go to, and I'm bored. I really need some purpose. And you don't want to do that at 71. Work that out at 57. I don't want to be bored at 71. So what do I need to do now to make sure that life is interesting and I remain an interesting person at 71? John, I do have links to your website in the show notes at bleedingdaylight.net.
And I'm also going to pop in a link to Die With Zero, because that's a good recommendation for people to get hold of that book, as you say, not one of your own, but one that's worth a read. But I just want to thank you for opening this conversation, opening our thinking around how things are going to pan out in the coming years. And thank you so much for spending some time with us on Bleeding Daylight.
Been so good to be with you, Rodney, and thank you for the listeners for hanging around with us. Thank you for listening to Bleeding Daylight. Please help us to shine more light into the darkness by sharing this episode with others. For further details and more episodes, please visit bleedingdaylight.net.