Toy Making, Representation, and Securing Shelf Space w/ Yelitsa Jean-Charles

the tech of how things work. However, since having a business, I understand that a mass way to communicate to customers and a great way to communicate with people period is through social media through our phones, and I found that Instagram was one of the major ways that I was able to communicate to other people and to like take something that is so the three dimensional on so um hands on that track and three dimensional, and the way

it translates on camera, it really flattens out. And so I wanted to figure out a way to still share what I do and what I'm experiencing when I see the person through photography and through that digital platform. I love how visual Instagram is. I think it's so cool, and so I wanted to contribute to that, and so I use that as my portfolio. I am not a tech savvy person, However I understand it's important and how it's the way that one can have a viable business.

So that's been a really, really great active way to have a portfolio and to like start to create your own messaging. So that's something that I use constantly to communicate ideas, what we're up to, what we're into, and I think that has drawn of an audience that is interested in what we do. I'm Will Lucas and this is Black Tech, Green Money. I'm gonna introduce you to some of the biggest names, some of the brightest minds and brilliant ideas. If you're black, in building or simply

using tech to secure your back, this podcast is for you. You. Lisa Gene Charles is the founder and CEO at Healthy Roots Dolls, which makes toys that represent more diverse backgrounds. A Detroit native, her dolls teach natural hair carried the young girls of color through toys. One of the things we talked about often in tech is the need for representation in order to inspire other black youth to leverage tech for generational wealth. Ask you, Lisa, why is so

important for representation with something so simple as toys. Yeah, when I was studying illustration at the Round School Design, I didn't really have an interest in toys. Haven't really had an interest in toys since I was like four. But uh, I did have an interest in social impact and the work that artists do and the way it

can influence culture and conversation. And so for me that meant researching and learning that toys actually have a huge influence on how kids think, act and see themselves, and so when children can't find products that look like them, it can have a negative impact on their self esteem.

I also learned a little bit about the brown versus Board of Education trial and the Mammy Clark doll test and what role that played in children's self perception and asking children how do you feel about this white doll versus black doll, and having white children overwhelmingly abscribed negative attributes to the black doll, but also having black children

do the same thing. And so we see how at a young age people children can be socialized to have these biases, and then thinking about, well, what can we do and what can we create to counteract that? Far too often, you know, because I have the arts, far too often, you know, parents will say, you know what,

will they all feel? You know, well, it's just a doll, you know, because we don't really see the impacts like present day and may play out over a lifetime when you are doing that research, like, how did you recognize that,

you know, creating the change for young girls and boys today? Um, Actually, in your marketing strategy, how do you communicate that this actually has an impact and it's important to be resolved today versus waiting till they're older, you know, to try to fix, you know, the perceptions that they have about communities that they are part of. Actually, I don't think we really include that in our marketing because people Our goal is never to convince people that this product is important.

It's to present it to people that understand or that are looking for it. You can't force people or force feed them the understanding that this is our reality. Like children are influenced by these things racists, real, prayer is real. You can only resent them opportunities to purchase products that might counteract that without them knowing. So we don't really put that in our marketing. Our marketing is mainly just

look at this really great toy, kids love her. Here's what she teaches them to do, and then you know what under the surface of that, this is the potential long term impact that you might see. You know. I love that response because it plays into so many different verticals. I was having a conversation UM and I wasn't I

didn't prepare us. But you made me think about the conversation I had with Dr Key Holman, who runs UM the Market in Atlanta, and I was talking to her about how I don't particularly subscribe to, you know, support our businesses. I feel like I want to create value. And if you see value, then like we don't support Walmart, we don't support Target, like we go shop there because

they have the things that we need. And so I wonder what your perspective is on because you just talked about you don't you you don't try to sell a narrative. You're trying to create something hopefully people see value. What do you say to that perspective? Because I'm very interested in this. I don't I never want to just go around and say, hey, come buy my thing because I

need your support. No, I think it makes sense. I always believe that you have a company if you people are buying your product, and if you are not buying your product. You don't have a company, and there's nothing you can say or do to make people buy something if they don't want to buy it. They're not gonna people are gonna buy something just because you're black, just because you're a woman. They're gonna buy it because you are those things and they value that, and they also

love your product. And so I believe in letting the products speak for itself. And if you also think that the story behind the person who built it is great, awesome, but that's not what's going to make you. That's not what my goal is to make you buy this product. My goal is for people who identify with the value to purchase it. So let's go a step further there, you know, because you're not trying to sell people who you know, may not, you know, prescribe to that idea.

But there's also hundreds of other dolls you know that maybe of color. What separates healthy roots dolls apart from the pack when you're not trying to necessarily sell a narrative it's a healthy Roots doll. The other dolls are healthy that. I think it's interesting because people are like, oh, how are you different? Or so and so could could do this. It was like they could, but they're not,

and they can't. That's our product. But the other thing is I don't necessarily see this competition because there's no child that only has one doll. We just created another option for you, and if you add Zoe to that

club of toys, awesome. We often see products that target, you know, black consumers, whether it be black children, black adults, or whatever, and they often, too often I think they are lame attempts, likely designed with the idea that we're monolithic, you know, sometimes designed with stereotypes um to thinking about toys we don't or before healthy roots, like we haven't had many that reflected shade well, um talls that were very dark, dolls that were very light, like how do

you find, you know, dolls that represent the spectrum you know of black people. Why do companies still to this day have such a hard time with this. I don't know if that's true, because I see so many different toys that I even now I am collecting. If I see something on the shelf, like I'm grabbing it, like I just saw in contest from Disney, they release those dolls Raya, the Last Dragon, They released dolls for those characters. So I think it's more so it's not that they

don't exist, it's that people can't find them. Okay, then that's probably my case. But no, that's another thing. Why are these products not widely distributed? Why are people not aware of the products that exists out there? Why do they have to have an ad be shown to them first before they know it exists? Why is it not on every Walmart shelf? Why is it not in every store? Why is it not equally as distributed as the non

parents of color? So let's talk about distribution, you know, because we're moving into a world because I wanted to talk to you about how about getting on a store shelf? And I wonder if you think do we still need to be on store shelves? Or is direct to consumer a valid distribution channel for startup toymakers. I think d

TWOC is a great channel. But it's also marketing. So if you're not able to market a product and build an audience and know how to speak to that audience and utilize all the tools in order to get your ads in front of the right people, build your email marketing funnel, build the right website, you're not going to succeed in that space. It's very challenging. You have to have all the right tools, all the right approaches. But

it's great when you get it right. It's the way so many brands have been able to launch themselves and then establish with retailers. It's how a lot of you know, underestimated founders get their products into the market in the first place. But they also have the tools and resources to do so, or they have to figure it out. So I totally believe in direct consumer channel. I love it. It's great. It's a marketing effort for sure, but it's not the only way. It's a great way to start.

And I was just um, took my keys to watch in Conto, and I get why they want those toys because they were just on the big screen. You know, these sorts of things. How do you if you were building healthy routes over today in the world of Snapchat, in the world of TikTok, in the world of roadblocks.

You know, I I tweeted this on a couple of weeks ago that I believe roadblocks is like the LinkedIn for kids, Like that's how they go and they meet people and they see what they did because they got this backpack full of these virtual toys in their metaverse. So how do you build demand for toys when we are so used to, at least in the day I grew up, if it was on TV, that's what I wanted, And it's not maybe so much the case of that anymore. Is that correct from my well, I know from my

experience that it's grown organically. So it's a lot of storytelling, it's a lot of organic marketing, you know, sharing your story, doing the podcast, going to the events, creating your content and sharing it online with an audience, and then people organically deciding to say, hey, I found this thing, you should totally check this out for your kid, and then you know, earned media. But that that's a slow build, and I think that's something that people forget when they

can look at a company like Healthy Roots. Oh wow,

this happened so quickly. It's like no, I started in class and that was like five years of developing the first product, getting building a lot of organic relationships that have helped us help to make it a bit easier to get those those big published gigs, getting into you know, being nominated for Toy of the Year, last year and things like that, and so I say that I think it's really valuable to focus on organic, so organically having kids find your product and clicking with it because you

sent it out to a bunch of influencers and they all did YouTube reviews and now all the kids know about it and things like that. They're telling their friends. It's incredibly valuable. Do you think there's a day where you might you know, have the dolls as care there's on TikTok. I think that's such a concept. Um. I think that also costs a lot of money. You go, I love it. Just that's it. You know, if I could, if I could do everything, I would do everything for sure.

Like it's some because so many of our people and I want to talk about you know how you funded this in a little bit, but so much so many of our people have these remarkable things. Um. But you know, having the fuel in the tank is can be an issue. So you just talked about the the idea that this wasn't this was not fast for you, But how do you know, Let's say you're the toymaker, you're a kid's book publisher, and you're doing this out of your kitchen or your garage and it's year three and you went

from selling twenty to two hundred. Like, that's not like a huge amount of growth over a period of time, not at least not in the world that we talk about of scale. But how do you know that it's worth it to keep going? What are the indicators you're looking for? I mean those indicators are metrics that you

define for yourself. So if you told yourself in a year that you're going to hit these sales goals and these are these are the strategies you're gonna implement to hit those goals, and then you don't, you gotta decide do I keep going or do I try something else and see how that impacts my goals for the next year. So you set your own pace, you set your own factors that determine success, and if you don't hit those factors, then I guess that's how you make your decisions whether

or not to keep going. Yeah, I was talking to a fashion designer a few episodes ago about getting celebrity backing, like somebody to an influencer to to wear your stuff, and how much of an impact that is required in order to build uh a label that you know people want in desire, And I wonder, because you mentioned this, getting influencers, you know, getting it in their hands and getting them to talk about it. Um could be an important you know, road and a venue for you know

you to build demand for your things. Can you talk about some strategies that may have worked for you or that you've seen work with regard to toys and dolls and novelties to being able to get people to pay attention to talk about your things on their channels. Yeah, I think one of the brands that has the money

to do this. Um leal Surprise is this major. I mean, you already know your kids already have them, don't pay Yeah, they already do, yes, yeah yeah, but LLL Surprise has taken how our attention has changed and also recognizing how short children's attention is on products by creating these little just like scared like scarcity moments with these different little products, and it literally is the way that kids brains work.

It's that like hit of like opening something, getting all these little different things and then like being able to go buy another one. And they're not expensive, they're not expensive. They're fairly priced for all these little pieces. And it's like wow, and and it creates collectibles for you know, the older demographic of people who participate in doll collection and things like that, and they trade these things. And they also use celebrities like Cardi b who have kids.

They might not be always family friendly characters, but they have children who love these things and throw birthday parties for them. So it's like the scarcity combined with the visibility, combined with the fun play pattern, it's a hit. I'm not my brain has not moved past where you talked what we talked about the animation and having like the TikTok you know, virtual star of a Healthy Roots doll.

Because I think about Barbie and then all the verticals Barbie has moved into, whether it be you know, Barbie comic books, and there's Barbie posters, and there's Barbie stickers that you can and all of these different things. What what are low hanging fruit verticals that Healthy Roots could go into, should just the right partner come along. I guess, I'm I guess. My question is probably more so of like, what is if you were to grow one point five

times your girl today? What are the key things that would need to happen for your target audience what I would imagine, and you can correct me. It's like an eight to fifteen year old. Eight to fifteen year olds my target audience. I'm asking right now, I'm asking, what's what's your target? No, it's six six six to that. I was too far off, too far off. I don't

see the fifteen year olds walking around. If you see a fifteen year old with one of my dolls with a matching app, please taking because because I see healthy, Because representation has not been there, I think there's an opportunity here. Now we we off on a whole different thing. Like I'm I feel like there's a bigger market play for you versus like other dolls, because we haven't had that representation with young girls who see themselves physically animated.

You know, and that girl, that girl probably missed seeing because we talked about distribution. I go down the aisles of target again. I talked about I don't see a bunch of shades, and so maybe I'm in the wrong target And that's probably valid. You know what I see potentially, and I'm in My oldest is eleven. So we'll figure this out in four years. If she still wants to representation. But I do see like for girls who did grow up at you know, five, six, seven, didn't see themselves

in those dolls. Perhaps maybe they're not playing with them, but perhaps they are the collectors of these things. Perhaps because that's where the age we totally have collectors. It's a thing we lots of people like I didn't have this. I bought one for my grand baby, but then I also bought one for me. But so you don't see like there's any fifteen year olds who are like an avenue into that demographic. Maybe if we got maybe if we got Zoe some like lashes and let's go acrilics.

It all happened on black Tech Free money. Come on, see people think it's some lashes for these dolls, because it's happening because they represent what's like you get some of them furry slippers. Put it on that that doll, get her a little tell far let's go ye love it. Many of the places where you've raised money, like they don't like fund CpG. I don't know if this is

CpG or not, or toys like their tech investors. You know, many of the places where you've got money, what from your seat being the person who pitched and and one these competitions, one these investments. What was it that got them to buy in and say, yo, U has got something. I know we are doing tech over here in courts and engineers, but this because I've heard so many people who do packaged goods and I'm not sure this falls in that category. I don't know if this is a

CpG player, you can correct me. But I talk to people like Tristan Walker, who actually does cepg's, Like those investors who he was friends with were like, is the market that big? You know, when you talk about the black consumer, how do you get those investors to buy into this? It's me and my pink sweaters. Um no. Uh. So I am always very strategic in terms of the spaces I go into and the conversations I have with people,

because UM seventeen is very hard for me. When I was, you know, college student firstly, firstly graduated, didn't come from an entrepreneur background. I was an art student. I study illustration, even though I had done an accelerator program. But people didn't see the necessary requirements in order to believe in

me as a founder just yet. Um. And so I learned that the most valuable thing that I have is my time, and so I would always tell founders, you know, stop chasing money and go find people that actually want to fund you. And so you can't go to the competition tiens where they're focused on tech and sas and fintech, because you know, if you're competing with a person that's trying to cure cancer and you're making dolls, they're not

particularly interested in that. So I actually only participated in programs and pitch competitions where they were either trying to support female founders, founders of color, or invest in physical product companies. So one of the first competitions I did was the Startup Stampede in Durham, North Carolina, which is actually specifically for e commerce companies, which is where I learned how to make Facebook ads and that's how I successfully. UM had really strong sales seasons in twenty so how

I learned how to build dynamic audiences online. I then went on to win the first New Voices pitch competition at Essence Fest, which is where a lot of black women are and there that fund is specifically for black women. I then did another accelerated program, then I won UM the Wendy Lee, UM mainstream Venture Grit, which is Fromcinnati, which is in the city that I lived in, and

they were supporting founders. So all my money technically came from these places, like even the quick and Loans Detroit Demoday where we could come dollars. That was for companies that were in the city of Detroit. UM that were starting like my phase would start like I was a new company. I told the compelling story, and I also had the support of the community after being there for some time, and the people voted for me. So UM.

The short answer is that I tell a compelling story, I have a great product product, and people believe in the work that I'm doing. I also curate with the things that I compete in. UM. But that's a lot of time. A lot of a lot of black founders find or I guess a lot of founders in general, find that they need to be part of that story, part of the story. How do you have to, as an entrepreneur be the thing to the consumer that sells it,

or can you lead with the product? I think what I'm when you say that, all I can think about is authenticity, which oftentimes means that you have to be a part of the story. So I started this company. It's relatively young. I'm young. I created this because of a compelling reason. I am. I am the company. I'm part of the company's story. And that's for people being able to see the person who started it, who's constantly working on it, and seeing where we started versus where

we are now. That matters because it's very it's relatable, and it may not be relatable in the sense that everybody starting a company, but it's like, Wow, I've always wanted to achieve great things and I'm seeing this person who actually did all this work to do it. That's really inspiring. I applaud that. Yeah, I'm glad you. I'm glad you answered that way because it makes me. It leads me into what I thought you were gonna go in the direction of and ask, is it then a

marketable asset? Then if the company, if your LIDSA, is tied to it, like could I'm making this up like could have has Bro say, Yo, we want healthy Roots dolls, but without Elitza. If there is no Healthy Roots dolls, that makes sense. I hear what you're saying. They're identities that are tied to brands like Oprah is Oprah brand. Um, but I don't know. Maybe one day Zoe can be

the face of Healthy Roots Dolls. Yeah, I just wonder if I just wanted to think about that, because I wonder I get the question about how integrated should the individual story be with the brand, and I hear a wide variety of responses to that. Some people don't want to be the face at all, They want to lead with the thing, and UM, that's just curious on your take on that. So I appreciate that I don't consider

myself the face of my company. I consider myself the face of my own experience and and story building the company, and sometimes we share that through the company as well when you get to talk about the product day that when you think ultimately about X saying if if you ever think about exiting this company, and I'll let you speak on at if you do, do you think about do you encourage people to think about exiting at all?

And do you believe that there or or do you believe that there will one day be a new has bro like Healthy Roots Dolls could be the one, you know, sucking up other opportunities instead of being the one that is acquired. I always encourage people to think about their long term plans. That's what I'm always telling people when it comes to you know, even early on in this conversation where you mentioned how do you when to quit

or how when you keep going? Like do you have to create long term plans with mile Jones and then chain with yourself on those miles swim determined? Is this progressing? Is it's not progressing? Do I need to pivot? So if you're starting a company, you need to think about down the road what you ultimately want to happen, whether that's I want to sell this company for this much money, or I want to partner like merge, whatever that might be, and that will help drive the rest of the decisions

you make along the way. I think it's incredib important to keep that as a part of history if that's the journey you want to take. Pre COVID, we had a lot of conversations in particularly in tech, about you know, where you're located geographically depending on what you're building. So if you were building fintech, you needed to be in

New York. If you were building you know, a consumer thing, a social network, you needed to be in the Valley or you know, media you needed to be in l A. A lot of that's changed, um with COVID in your Detroit, you know, Midwest, like I like I am Toledo. I wonder what are from your perspective, what are the advantages

of being where you are? And do you see could your success have grown better or faster or worse had you not been in Detroit building Um, I definitely think that some of my advantages are the cheap flights to everywhere else and um, I think I've always just been a big fish in a little on from where I went from from elementary school to middle school to high school, from the college that I went to, from the cities

that I've lived in I've always had. I've always been one of the few people who has like big goals, big visions, and is untethered. So I don't think where I'm based can stop me from doing anything, because I'm gonna go where I need to go to do what I need to do. So you don't think being presently there matters. I think it can if for it depends on who you are, Like if you don't have the access to the capital you need to go from place to place to place, and you know, spend the month

here and spend two weeks here. It's gonna be way harder. But if you can do that, do it. I would travel from I spent four months in Durham, North Carolina. I literally just packed up my stuff, went down there and stayed there for four months. I've done that for Detroit, where I went from Ohio to Michigan for four months and then ultimately decided to relocate here. But I would I spent a whole year basically on planes just going places.

But I think it's nice to have a home base where you have a core network, where there's a growing ecosystem of people doing some work, you know, and start up in direct consider marketers so that you can like mesh with them. I think that's something I definitely gained from my article experience, which is like being in the in the critique world of like putting your artwork on the wall, getting feedback from people, so making sure you

have a circle so you can do that. But I don't feel I personally, in my experience, have never felt limited based on where I live, because I'm gonna go where I need to be. Although I do understand how where you live can impact that. You just have to find your workarounds, and so for me, my workarounds were just packing it up and going and asking for introductions.

In a few minutes I have left with you, I do want to talk about getting on a store shelf, and can you talk about like what retailers want to see, Like how do you even get on their radar to where they're having a real conversation with you. Um? Well, I think my particular strategy is name dropping, So I will name drop retailers and articles. I had a Forbes interview. I was it would be great to be in target one day, um, and then a buyer reached out and

we were able to have a conversation about that. But I think the best way to get on retail shelves is to do five years worth of work, build strong sales through your online store, and build a bunch of relationships along the way where that's not your first touch point with that retailer. So when you go, they have records, they can look at what are they looking for? I can't,

So I can't even say that. I can't even tell someone how you would go about getting into detail because my journey is so unique in itself, and it's like, oh, yeah, just do what I did. It's like I can't really tell you to do what I did because I don't really know what I did. I just did this work and I purposefully went about like, oh yeah, I know I want to be in target. Let me work on building this channel. So there are definitely lots of opportunities

to meet buyers and get your products in front of people. UM. You can look up those opportunities. I know. I am in a bunch of toy different toy groups and organizations like Women in Toys and the Toy Association that specifically creates opportunities for vendors for members to pitch their products. UM. Even the new voice is fund, which is a way that people can pitch for UM in competitions for capital. They have a segment of that organization that helps introduce

people to potential to target for potential retail opportunities. So, but none of that matters if you don't have a compelling product and it already established brand, because you have to be able to market it, I'm sure, because it has to happen when you're out. Let's say you go to a show and you're walking down the aisle because you just left your booth for fifteen minutes or whatever.

You're just out looking at other people, talking to other founders who have products, and you see indicators that make you interested. Only if this person is ever going to get on the shelf because of something thing? What is typically a reason why somebody who might have a decent product, What is the flag that says, you know what, this probably this person is probably not gonna make it to a shelf. I can tell um, I'm not. That's more

of a question for a buyer. But what I can say are some of the things that a buyer is going to need and so they need. You need to be able to scale. So if a bvirus says they want so the bierus says they need ten thousand units in six months, you need to be able to produce ten thousand units in six months. And sometimes that means you need to finance that inventory. And if you don't have financing options, you're not gonna be able to get that inventory to them, so you're not gonna get put

on the shelf. You also have to have the right margins, so retailers expect specific margins on products, and if you haven't priced your product correctly or your cost of production is too high, you're not gonna be able to give them those margins in order to make it worth the opportunity. And then often and then sometimes you will have to purchase marketing assets. So those that you see those UM inserts in, you know, print materials for the store where

brands are featured. Sometimes brands have to pay for that in order to market and sell the products. So the marketing doesn't just stop on your own social you also have to market your retailers. So it's gonna be financing bandwidth UM and can keep up. Black Tech Green Money is a production of Black They Afro Tech on the Black Effect podcast Network and I Hired Media. He's produced by Morgan Dubon and me Well Lucas, with additional production

support by Love Beach and me Rissa Lewis. Special thank you to Michael Davis, Adam Simms, and Sakar Savon Jan you know like the Wine, Yes that's his real name. Learn more about my guests and other tech dirt is the innovators at afro tech dot com. The video version is episode We'll Drop to Black Tech Green Money on YouTube, so'll tap in. Enjoying black Tech, Green money. Leave us a five star rating on iTunes. Go get your money, Peace and love,