Making Space for Black Toy Designers w/ Dr. Lisa Williams

I'm with Lucas and this is black Tech, Green Money. Doctor Lisa Williams is founder of World of Epi and The Fresh Dolls, where she helps children embrace their beauty, uniqueness, and positive play through doll representation. Her company is the

Yeah, because that allows you to dream.

And I think that how you play as a child has a direct impact on what you believe you can achieve and will achieve as an adult. And it is about representation because when you see a doll that looks like you, could you really to it? And then as you're playing with it, of course, you can envision yourself not just playing at it, but playing with it and actually becoming what you're envisioning what you're playing with as a child.

And so I was thinking about this.

I thought it was so interesting if you think about that study that was done in the nineteen forties, the doctor Kenneth and Mamie Clark studying that show that when you gave little black girls, I think they gave it to little black boys also, but I know they gave it to little black girls. The choice between playing with a white doll and a black doll, they still prefer

A different way as had some other folks. And I don't need to be funny, but it is funny in that way.

But I think about could there have been more there, and also that the toys that they gave those black kids maybe didn't show the best beauty of black children. I was just thinking about that as we were, you know, preparing for this conversation. You know, what do you think there?

Well, you know what, I applaud Kenneth and made me clock on what they did, and I definitely stand on their shoulders. I think in their case, they did use two identical dolls, one which is white and one was black, and unfortunately, I believe that it was its ingrading systemic degradation of beauty of black and brown people. That is

Yeah, super unfortunate there. And you you talked about representation, how important that is, and we talked about that for so long. You know, it's just the forties and having representation and toys and what do you think about aspiration? Also, because I think about not only in seeing my hue represented in the color of a doll, but also particularly a vision of the future, what do I look like as an adult male?

Go ahead and see?

And that is exactly the reason why I did these dolls. Let me just pause for a moment. You asked me about the Kenneth and made me Clarkstone the original one.

Right, so we given Jim Crow laws.

It's like it wasn't really a big stretch that our beautiful black and brown children would say that the black and brown doll was ugly.

But what did shock me is when they.

Did it again in two thousands and we still had the same problem. Meaning beautiful chocolate little girls in this particular example looked at the doll and said, I don't want to play with the black doll.

The skin is nasty. That broke my.

Heart and it still does today because at that time, of course, we had a black president, beautiful first lady in the White House, and even personally, I was achieving and breaking records in academia. I was the highest ranking professor in the world. I had two multimillion dollars in dollars to research.

I would talk that talk.

The reason why I say that is in a way, because I was breaking so many barriers.

I was living in a cocoon.

I'm about to cry again because I did not realize that our children were still suffering from this. I didn't realize that they are still thinking that they're less than. So even sitting at the top of my perch, right the highest ranking professor in the world be a black, yellow, green of purple. When I saw that, it broke something in me because there was an illusion that I had. We had the first black president. I'm achieving so many personal goals and professional goals. I'm just assuming we had

And I knew nothing.

Well, well, listen to me, nothing, I mean.

Lessen nothing. But what I had was a passion.

I didn't have any money, I had no mentorship, no experience, no background, nothing, But I had a passion to make sure that representation is prevalent in the doll industry.

Yeah, and it's so exciting what you've achieved, you know, having received even the highest honor in the doll industry, the toy industry, the Doll of the Year. So kudos to you for that. And so talk about the importance of pushing the industry to embrace.

Efforts like this, because I think about.

While having that public acclaim, the industry doesn't always challenge, you know, champion innovation in that way. So because it's disruptive, it makes them have to do things differently.

Absolutely, because before we came, it was acceptable. It was an industry standard that would just take a beautiful Caucasian sculpt and you put brown paint on it, and it's a black doll. You put tan pain on it, and it's a Latin, a dolt. And we came around and we said, no, no, no, Each individual ethnicity should have their own unique facial sculpt reason why is that because that's the.

Only way it can be authentic.

And but creating unique sculpes is the most expensive part of a doll.

So I understand from a.

Business perspective, while many companies chose not to do it, I get it.

Our mission was different.

I didn't come into the doll industry saying I want to be a billionaire, right, That was never my goal.

Every time.

My goal was and still is, how can I show beautiful black and brown children their beauty and their brilliance and whatever it takes to do that. That's what we're willing to do. And so since the responses have been so positive, now others in the industry are looking at it like, oh, wait a minute. You know, there's a market that's been underserved. They're dollars we haven't reaped yet. So now you do see a lot of toy industry

You so interesting to me is I have daughters and what it seems like from a parent perspective, it seems like the variation in the shape of the dolls has been embraced faster than.

The hue of the dolls. So you have dolls with.

You know to historically very you know shape lists, you know to you have a lot of a better word, shapeless dolls. You think about the history. I won't name any brands, but then you have very exaggerated body types in so many of these, and it feels like those exaggerated form the shapes of dolls have been embraced faster than the hues. Can you Is that just me? As a parent, or is that something that's relevant across the industry.

It's relevant across the industry. It's it's very true. Yeah, we embrace it. Generally speaking, the population embraces unique body shapes and sizes, right, which is wonderful because it's all body positivity. So I love that. But you are very right when you say, but we're a little slower to.

Accepting the skin tone. And and it's it's still heartbreaking.

Because obviously we focus on multicultural dolls. We have dolls for every skin tone and every ethnicity. But I will look at our sales data and sometimes I'll see that our dolls that skew a little lighter sell better than those skewing towards the darker skin tone. And that again, that's a that's a that's it breaks my heart and it shows me there's so much work yet.

Still for us to do.

And with that, you did this this Black Panther release, which you know, I think is fantastic.

Can you talk about why.

That was important for the business side of what you have going on, and you can talk about anything else in the Black Panthers echosystem that is important to you also.

Well, I still was saying Black Panther changed my life like I did so many of us right, talk about representation, you saw it right, and from the Marvel universe, we were included. We were primary. I love seeing those powerful female warriors. It was just incredible, and of course Chadwick's performance was just just awesome.

So I saw that movie. I was changed and transfixed by it.

So imagine how excited I was when what three or four years later, Marvel really reaches out and says, hey, would.

You guys interested into doing the Black Panther dolls? It's like, wait, what.

As they said?

You know you yes, that is yes.

And it was truly a labor of love. And when I say labor, it was a labor because we were so fixated on making sure the dolls were authentic and representative of the actors and the actresses in the film, and.

So we wanted to We did.

We custom blended skin tones, we did unique facial sculps. We even created a new hair fiber like locks has never been done mass produced, never ever been done mass produced.

And we can.

We do we have a pattern there because we didn't want to cheat just get anything that's on the shelf and say Oh, well, we'll take that because I know the difference between.

A braid and a lock, right, my team does too.

We knew braids wasn't wasn't the key, it was wear it, so we had to create it. So again, it was a joyful experience. But like anything that you've committed to and your heart is involved in, you go the extra mile. So we went the extra mile to make sure those dolls were authentic, representative, and beautiful.

One hundred.

Can you talk about ways how you view us in society and continuing to find ways to lean into our culture and authenticity and how that translates ultimately into pushing society.

To change his behaviors. I think about us.

Embracing natural hair in the workplace in corporate environments when historically that was a faux pa because it needed to be a certain type of way. So how can us continuing to lean into this our authenticity and having that representation from the toy level up change the culture in our day and age.

It starts with us, right when it comes to our culture, it starts with us. It starts with us which we do recognizing it, appreciating it, and celebrating it. And when we want to buy and purchase things made by our community for our community.

It makes a difference. One, it helps those black and brown.

Companies thrive and grow, but then it also gets the attention of other major companies. I mean, let's be real, they may not always be socially conscious, but they are always profit driven conscious. And I'm not criticizing that. I'm just making a statement. And so when we as a community demand better and we only pay for what's better, then all companies rise up to that and they start producing better quality products for us. And that's what's happened

That represent them. But first it starts with us demanding it.

We have to s and we demand not only with our voices, not only with our marches, but we demand with our dollars. That's really what people hear. It's where we use our dollars.

So I'm gonna touch on this Toy Assocition t Toy Association Board of Directors a couple of times. And I know, Yea, you may not be the chair, so I'm not gonna ask.

You to speak officially for the board. But I think about you, j.

You just mentioned there's other people coming into the fora with other ethnic and you know multi you know, different tones, body skin tones for dolls, and historically when that happens, large retailers will pick one and there won't be enough shelf space for two or three different options. You think about that, like, you know, when I was growing up, you had one type of hair product that was for men. It was by a black company, and that was the

It was just a a a section before.

How do we continue to fight for and accomplish shelf space so that we proliferate in these retail environments.

Again, everything and we're talking about economics and business, we're talking about money when it really boiled down to it, right, So you are so right.

Here's a brilliant comment. Shelf spaces looked at like real estate.

Right, So there's so much real estate, and that real estate should bring in so many hundreds of thousands of millions of dollars during a particular time period. So retailers are looking at, how can I maximize my real estate? Can I put what product is going to can I put on my shelf that's going to generate the highest margin, the highest turns for me. So it goes back again to us demanding with our dollars what we want to purchase.

When we purchase.

Things that are truly authentic and truly representative, then that's what the retails restock. That's when they start expanding that shelf space, expanding.

That real estate.

So they're getting a bigger bang for the doll for the product they put on the shelf.

And so from to that end, so many dollars, particularly the dolls of color, have leaned on brands first in order to create that demand. You know, like I think about like a doc ment Stuffians doc ment stuffans with that cartoon first, then they can come out with a doll and do these other things. And we hear so often talk about you know, building the brand before you invest in physical products, because you want to make sure

So it's amazing how one's life is like a thread that weaves through your life. So I was a professor first, as I said earlier, and as a professor, I had written books, academic books as real as trade books. And anyway, one of the books included Walmart executives, as it did Procter and Gamble, and that one didn't.

But it included.

Seers, military generals and the CEO of Walmart. I say all that to say it so I got to know the people at Walmart, and so they actually had asked me about doing publishing, like publishing children's books, And at first I said no because I didn't know anything about publishing children's books either. I was an academic, right, but I thought I want to support literacy and children, and I can make sure that all children are represented.

So that's what I did in books.

The books did so well that they asked me to do a line of dolls in the image and likeness of the characters and the books.

But I said no, will.

Because I knew nothing about dolls at all. Two or three weeks later, I see the documentary, so I go back and say, yes, Walmart, I will do this.

So my story is a little different.

But what I can say, generally speaking, for those who are looking to enter into a space like getting to mass retail is first of all, walk the shelves, walk the store, see what they have and see what's missing, whatever's instinct is what you want to now create a product for. And then you want to tap on their door, which actually is not that hard not to get meetings

Oh yeah, we're going to talk about that, because that's what here for a black tech Greek money I want to be. I read that you you know, you decided to bootstrap. You didn't want to take on a bunch of investors because you wanted to retain that ownership.

And so often we.

Probably to our own demise box that into what.

You can't scale if you bootstrap.

You got to bring on investors. If you want to go big or you're just going to build a lifestyle company, you can't really build something that scales and you know, employees tons of.

People if that's the goal.

And so how how do you think about retaining control and or ownership And how did you find a way to bootstrap something that actually needed an upfront investment because you needed physical products?

My god, it's an amazing question. So you are so right.

I consciously made a decision not to accept investors. And the reason why I did that is because I wanted to make sure that the product that we created were authentic. And when I'm doing that, sometimes I'm spending more money than the average company would spend on dolls right because the hair's got to be right.

So I got to spend extra money for the hair.

I got a blend ex special concoct or combination for the skin tone.

So I'm spending more money.

I know.

An investor would tell me, stop, you don't need a different face scope for every ethnicity, right the one for the black, or work for the white, wait to work for the Asians.

All the same.

I knew to be true to the vision and to really uplift these children, that wasn't going to work.

So that's why I said no investors. Now how did I do it?

Gosh, it was paid. It was painful, will I'm not going to tell you it wasn't. I started out by credit cards like most people do. Yeah, after I use all of my credit cards and friends and family. Then I mortgaged the house after the house, and I took what I could out of my life insurance. After that, I took what I could out of my retirement. So I literally was all in my husband's I'm the biggest gamble he's ever met, because I literally put everything.

On the line for this company.

And I didn't and it didn't work smoothly all the time because I had to file bankruptcy just as total transparency with your audience. It was not easy, but even in those times, I was still committed.

To making sure that these dolls represent our children.

So even then, I didn't want investors because if you take investors when you're in that stage when you're really vulnerable financially and now you're really at their back and costs like they have total control of the company and all creative aspects. I didn't want that.

Again. I knew that it was going to be done right.

It had to be done by me, with my heart and my passion to make sure that these children were represented. So yeah, no, it wasn't easy, but yeah I did bootstrap it. I still do today, and now we're very profitable, thank goodness.

I am hiring people.

We are moving into animation, so we're going to have animation series coming out, we're expanding our doll lines more, we're doing more licensing deals.

So things are really good.

And we own one hundred percent of the IPS, which is important.

That's fantastic.

And so what were the indicators when you were in those stressful financial times that said, you know.

Just keep going because there's got to be.

Something that's something that's a flicker of light in the tunnel.

The children. For me, it was and it still is, the children.

And when I would think about quitting, and I did many days I thought about quitting, and then I would wake up in the morning and I'd say, but if you don't do this, who is going to create dolls for these beautiful black and brown children?

And I would.

Envision them playing on the floor and just seeing how they would have nothing that looked like them, or they could have doll that truly reflected their brilliance and their beauty. And that will is what kept me going on every day. And I would but I was in a sort of surrender. I also want to say that I was, you know, if the things had turned and you know, things didn't

At the end, when you're lying on.

Your deathbed, do you want to say I did it and I failed, which is a possibility, or I never even tried. I didn't even take the courage to try, or the experience I'm having now I took the courage. Yeah, it was rocky, but it won, and it won not only financially, but it won most importantly by really authentically representing our children. That's what gives me the greatest joy, the greatest high ever.

Is this knowing I've made a difference in the lives of children.

I've heard your problem in your company being described as a mission driven doll line, and this is this is this question comes from.

The perspective of at what point are we just mainstream and just mainstream? Right?

So I don't go to Kroger grocery store because of its mission that girl because they have what I need, right, And I wonder at what point? Not that there's anything against mission driven, but my question is, at what point is it just we have beautiful black dolls? Why do we have to be always statement making? If that makes sense, it.

Makes perfect sense, and we don't. To answer your question, we don't always.

We don't have to be. For me, I was purpose driven, right. It was a purpose seeing that little girl and make sure she had dolls that looked like her. So that was my purpose and that was so much that it drove me, Like I said, through the bankruptcies, and you.

Know that was what continued to drive me.

Had I been driven by money, just as an example, I would have given up and going back to being a professor because it's making way more money than I was as an entrepreneur for many, many, many, like decades. Literally I would have made more money as a professor. But it wasn't about the money for me. It really was about making a difference in kids' lives.

That makes total sense because I think about this in so many ways. And I was having this conversation with I think doctor Key Holman from the Village Market in Atlanta, and we were talking about why it's again, I don't shop at certain certain stores. I just shop at just because they have what I need. But I don't know much about you know, what the mission is, if there's

We'll get there when there's more of us doing it for purpose because the fact is there is nothing right, there is nothing, so other companies can just make a tonka because there's like tons of red and blue trucks out there for us, there are no trucks that apply to us, so we got to make a truck for us. Then once there's so many of trucks for us that it's like, well.

I just want to make a helicopter. I don't care. I just want to make a helicopter.

That makes sense.

That's I think.

Yeah, I think that's I think we're in the infancy, and in terms of our community and manufacture, I think we're in the emfancy.

But we're going to move out of that. And then you're right, it's just going to be an economic decision.

Because you see so many toys as part of your board role and you just being out there, are there unique things happening created by black toy designers and black toy makers that we should be paying attention to.

You know, I think the toy industry is probably one of those unknown, slash forgotten industries for black creatives. Unfortunately, I don't see a lot of black creatives and toys. I hope again to change that. I mean we give scholarships to colleges, we do internships. I'm always mentoring students.

Do you think you have a responsibility then to be visible and yeah.

Oh absolutely, and not only to be visible, but my entire company to be representative. So in my company we are one hundred percent diverse.

Yeah, right, And.

That's important because we're creating dolls for Asian children and black children. And I'm not Asian, so I would never to do an Asian doll, right, That'd be inauthentic. But if I have a great talented Asian creative, then yes, we can work together as to create this amazing product for all children.

And that's what we do. So yes, I do feel I have a responsibility to.

Be seen, to be heard, and not only embraced, but to welcome, welcome in the next generation.

It's interesting to me that you know you don't see and I've to be honest, I have not heard about many toy makers who are black people. To your point, we don't see enough of us doing this. And I wonder if, having seen you now and more people becoming aware of your story, if our creativity finds its outlet in that way, because maybe we thought we were supposed to deploy that creativity in one direction, but toys is a better direction or another direction that we should consider.

I agree toys.

The annual revenue for toys outstrips the entertainment industry. We're talking about must hundreds of billions of dollars in toys. But I don't think we recognize it as a community because we have the talent. Oh my gosh, have you seen the artists in our community. Oh, just breathtaking. So they just need to understand that there's another avenue to express that creative juice, right, and it's in toys.

So what are some of the first steps.

Let's say, you know, I'm an artist and I was thinking where we had Gracie's Corner on here a couple of weeks ago, an animation series on Big Big on YouTube. And there are other animators out there and designers and et cetera. What are some of the easiest ways to create those demo toys or those you know, sample toys. I'm talking about from a manufacturing perspective, like, what do we need to get started on the road of doing this?

So let me make sure I clarify because there's two different I hear two different questions. How do we get into the industry or how do we manufacture product?

What's the first steps?

So I've got, you know, maybe the design that I draw, and I want to make this superhero cartoon character.

I have a toy. What do I do next?

Got it?

Okay, So the first thing you do is you trademarket. Let's get what you created, right, So, let's get your lawyer go online, figure out how to trademark your IP number one. Then after that, make contact with If you're very first time out, you want to make a contact with a factory, and so maybe the best way of doing is working through a sourcing agent.

And a sourcing agent.

Can help you do a lot of things that can help you identify a factory.

They can even help you develop terms with that.

Factory, and they may have avenues with retailers perhaps, And so after you have your product made, you get a prototype of that, and then you knock on retailers doors and you take your research of hey, I walked your stores. Here's what I see you're missing. Here's how my product can satisfy it at a reasonable cost, and this is

On the shelf.

And no, people think that's really hard, and it is. I'm not trying to say it's not. It's incredibly difficult to get product a mass retail incredibly well, what is really harder, if you will, is to get it off the shelf, meaning getting that consumer to walk in looking for your product and buy it. So having a great marketing plan is also what's needed. And then you just need to have great supply chain to get the product to the retailer, and then a great analyst to analyze

If it's really not performing and.

Just keep a partnership relationship with your retailers.

And a lot of people don't do that.

A lot of people think when they're working with the big box retailers, it's like, well, I'm working with Walmart, I'm working with Target.

They got more than enough money. I'm just gonna shave a little.

Bit off here, take a little bit off here, and not necessarily be a true partner to really succeed. Whether it's in retail or whether it's really in life, it is about being an ethic, integral supplier that will honestly work together as partners with the retailer to actually move product and to get your product into the hands of the consumer.

So you went to school for logistics, your doctor there first PhD from the Ohio State University of black woman African American period, not even just black women to have a PhD in logistics from the Ohio State University. And I heard you say a couple of things in your tutorial there on how to come from idea to execution on toys. I'm assuming some of your logistics background helped you speak the language.

Yes, it did, particularly when it came to the manufacturing and the shipping and going and shipping internationally and the warehousing.

And yes, it absolutely did.

But I will tell you I wrote books on logistics and supply chain, I wrote articles on it.

I did a dissertation thesis on it.

Nothing really prepared me until I actually did it.

You know, it's one thing to study it and to write about it.

It's a whole nother ballgame to really get your feed in there and start doing it. But yes, having that background did help because I could, to your point, speak the language, or I knew enough to know what I didn't know, and I knew where to go out and get the information. And that's also very helpful. You don't have to know every answer. You're not actually you're not

Now we can both grow.

So I want to hear the I've heard you discussed before the benefit of not having a ton of experience in a particular industry category. And so often when we do have experience, we come in with defaults and assumptions on how things are supposed to go. But when you don't have experience, that can be a benefit as well, because because you can take roads people with experience won't take because they already made assumptions about it.

Can you talk more about that that.

It was one of the greatest revelations that I had. That question, right, there has so many jewels in it. What you just said, Yes, when I moved it to toys, as I said, I had no mentoring, I had no money, I had no internship, no experience, nobody to help me, nothing, literally nothing, And for so long, literally longer than I care to admit, probably a year or two, I kept thinking.

That was a disadvantage, like I don't know what they know.

They've been doing it longer they went to school for But one girlfriend told me one day as I was sitting there lamenting about it.

I don't know this bill, sorry for yourself, right flyssory for myself.

But what I don't know?

And she said to me, because you don't know what you just said, Well, you don't have any perceived a concept of how this is supposed to work. You know, you can start and look at things fresh. And I did, and that's why I have custom Blenda Skintnes. Nobody else did that because they knew there was a book you could go to.

Well I didn't. I had to create.

Those colors myself, which it ended up being more accurate. And that's what we're known for now. So had I had that preconceived notion, Oh, just go to this Pantone book how we do business, the authenticity would have been very different. So yes, I come into this not knowing, and so I break all the barriers. I break the rules because I don't.

Because I don't know any betre, I don't know. This can't be done right.

No one told me you can't move from being a professor over doing toys and interacting with people and China around the world because you don't have the knowledge and background all the money to do it. No one told me that, So I didn't think it was impossible.

I literally saw a TV show and thought I can create a dog company me.

Yeah, and I did, And I did because I didn't believe I couldn't.

So there are three overarching highlights from this interview for me, and I'm going to ask you after I repeat them for me.

One, you came from a.

Very successful previous career and you decided to give that up to pursue this. Two, there's not enough of us creating toys or seeing toys as an option, and we should see it as an option. And three, you know, the stop feeling sorry for yourself when you don't have

There's two pieces of advice. One is I heard someone say, gosh, there's so many. Now there's three pieces of advice.

Just give us all give us all of it.

Okay.

So even for me, I remember serving on the board at Walmart and I was a young entrepreneur.

I mean young as in five years with young entrepreneur.

And I was in the room with these women that literally one of them had a companies had that was worth a billion dollars, others had seventy eight million, another thirty. And I'm sitting there and I realized that no, they weren't black women, but there were women, and that they had to change, you know, thirty seventy eight, one hundred billion dollars, billion dollar company. And I'm like, they're no different than I am. So it was representation for me. So representation counts.

It matters.

I don't care if it's skin tone, I don't care if it's ethnicity, or for success in business, you need a role model to know that it's possible.

So that's one.

The other is I always like to say to people that when you're doing something lived by your heart, it may seem crazy to other people, but ignore it. It's kind of like, you know, if you're looking at people who are dancing and you can't hear the music, they actually look insane. When you can hear the music, it

Right.

So you have to follow your heart and listen to your music. Others will give you great.

Advice, but always always listen to it with a temple of your music, meaning does this make sense for me? And another thing I'd also say, one other piece of advice I learned, don't play us so safe in life.

Really, don't we have one life. Live it to the fullest.

Don't sit there and say I can't because I'm scared or I don't want.

I'm scared. I want to do it, but I'm scared.

Take the step in faith and watch and see what it will happen. Because that's what I did, and it wasn't easy. I just I described it was not an easy process. But as I took the faithful steps, every step got easier because my faith grew. And as my faith grew, myself awareness, my self worth grew and as that grew, then I was making decisions that felt more empowered. And then I wasn't intimidated by the big companies anymore.

It's like, well, I'll make as good a doll as they do.

Yeah, they got you know, three hundred thousand employees and I got three. But you know, we're doing the same thing. I'm in the retailers. There in the retailers, I'm manufacturing. I have factories, they have factories. So it's just the thing about scale. But as you grow in your faith, as you grow are seeing your successes, then you.

Become more confident.

As you become more confident, your company goes from one million to twenty million, thirty or fifty to sixty million.

That's just how it works.

Black Tech Green Money is a production of Blavity Afrotech on the Black Effect podcast Network and I Heart Media, and it's produced by Morgan Debonne and me Well Lucas. The additional production support by Sarah Ergan.

And Rose McLucas.

Special thank you to Michael Davis. Someone That's a Serrano, Mayamol Drew. Learn more about my Guess and other technis up there's an innovatives at afrotech dot com enjoying black.

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