You you you know the board of your company when you should know them right and when you're sitting in the C suite or or have some kind of a role that requires that you interface with them on a regular basis or any basis, that's fine. Otherwise I assure you you will not become a member of the c suite if you spend your time trying to get to know your directors. You should try to spend your time getting
to know your job. I'm well, look as this is black that green money, and I'm so excited to bring you this episode because I was there in real time when it happened. This is the conversation that happened at Afro Tech Executive in Brooklyn, and it was with the CEO, the former CEO of ze Rox, Miss Ursula Burns, who was CEO of Xerox from two thousand nine. She was the first black woman to be c O of a Fortune five company and the first woman to see another
woman as head of a Fortune five visual company. Sister all around. Most pertinent to today's conversation is her board roles. Miss Burns sat on the boards of directors for more than fifteen companies, including Boston Scientific University of Rochester, m I T Corporation, American Express, Exim Mobile, Boolber, White Star, and more. During this conversation, which was held at a pro Tech executive Brooklyn, have you you had a recurring theme?
You should not miss another apro tech executive. By the way, we're gonna be in d C in a couple of weeks. But anyway, back to today's conversation. She talked behind the Highles managing partner at Black Ops Adventures and founder of path Right. If you have any interests, listen to me. If you have any interest in one day sitting on a corporate board, listen. Keep your ears locked. And if you want to build a big company, listen, keep your
ears locked. Because boards are where the decisions are made. Boards are where you where they decided. If you're gonna keep your job as CEO is a matter of fact. Understanding how they work is the best thing you can do with your next forty minutes. Give more. Welcome to Ursula Burns to see you. Welcome. Yeah, where's my cousin? Where's your cousin? Let's wait wait, where is she? Hi cousin? Thank you for being here. She's my cousin And I always call her my niece because she's so much younger.
It's her cousin. How your girlfriend. Yeah, we're glad you're here. Hey, thank you so much for being here today. You are again one of these amazing pioneers that has paved the way and been a model to folks like myself and all the women in this room. So I want to start by saying thank you so much for everything you've done, for being you. You know, I'm gonna give the real brief version because you've done so much that we don't have time to get into all that we want to
hear from you directly. Okay, Okay, we go, but you know, um, your your legendary position as the CEO of Xerox and doing such a huge acquisition for them, and all the other things that you've been doing. We want to hear some of what you're doing today. UM. So I hope we'll get into it. So thank you so much. UM. We The last question we ended on I thought was very helpful, UM, which was um, the question was is it enough to be a black woman and be the director?
And Merlin's answer was absolutely not. And if a if a person select you for a board just because of your demographics, that's not the board for you. So I think from the CEO UM perspective, what do constructive value add directors look like and how do they behave versus somebody who's kind of taking up airspace and and not helping the management team do their thing. Yeah, I heard the question the last couple of questions, and I must say I don't agree. Okay, I absolutely don't agree. Let's
say this all the time. First of all, no company is going to come to you and say you're totally not a knowledgeable about anything to do with business. But but just because you happen to be black and a woman, were going to put you on the board. So that I mean, that's just not a viable company. So that I would, I would just that's not a thing that I mean unless they're absolutely dingdongs, which you wouldn't want
to be with anywhere. But so if they've come to you, they found you, they look at some kind of a profile and the reason why you are the next person that they would pick is because you're black or a woman. I'd go just as quickly as not. For so long we have been excluded because of the way that we look, I absolutely tell you, I say this all the time. It's about damn time that we were included because of
the way that we look. So I absolutely okay. Now, this whole thing about being on boards, I gotta say, this is the I've been on It's not always crack up to be guys, be careful here. I mean, it's good and it's fun, and it's all that stuff. You don't get anywhere near as much money as you think. It takes a ton of time. It's not doesn't always take a ton of time, but when it takes a ton of time, it takes a lot of time. And you can't say things like I'm busy. They're like, well,
I mean that's the reason why you're sitting here. We want you to be busy on this right, not on other on other things. And sometimes it's just not fun. I mean, you you know you're going the boys of banks and insurance companies. Is that's not your thing? You sit there and try to figure out what that am I doing here? That's the and then the last is the group of people that you're with. Forget the management team, but the directors. If they're not worth your time, don't
go because you'll it just isn't that much fun. It's the thing that we're all running after now. But that thing has been run through by white guys already, and now they're handing it to us and saying, women and you can do it right, we're coming. So I I actually I like boards. Yeah, I like boards. I don't get me wrong. It's an important thing to do. If you can do it, you gotta be unbelievably selective. Unbelievably selective.
I mean, what are you selecting for. First of all, the team with people that you're gonna be sitting around the table with the other directors. Yeah. The second is the company. I mean, you know I've been on What are they doing? I mean, if you're not interested in what they're doing? You know some In the beginning, of course, I was highly just like everybody is here, I want to be on one. So I picked a road striping company. You know, the they they picked me. I didn't pick them,
they picked me. I had been by the way. It was. It was fun. I ended up loving the guys. But the product, I mean it was it was glass beads for road striping. And I learned a lot from the company. But when they you know, we would go on plant tours and I be like, oh, what about doing so I'm making fun of it, but be careful, be aware that this sounds great, but it takes a lot of time and a lot of energy, and it takes a lot of your emotional time. And you you know, you've
got to read stuff beforehand. You have to have some reason besides just saying I'm on one that you want to be involved. The last thing I'll say on this thing. If you can get on a private company, go board a pre I p O board. I would do it every single day before I go on a public company board. Every day you get paid more money, you get more involved in the company. The chances of getting rich are better in a public company. Literally, your compensation is contained
and reported to everyone. Every single year. You can't make more than x l y money dollars. That's if you have one meeting or five meetings. Literally, the same amount of money goes whether you have one or five hundred. You never have one, right you have six or seven. But somebody talked about this. If you're in trouble, I'm gonna board a x On mobile. X On Mobile just had a proxy fight x on Mobile has ten meetings a year normally Proxy Fight year. How about and you
just do you have to do them now. They make it a little bit easy for you. They've tried to find the time that you can do it. But it's not you know, it's not it's not all it's cracked up to be. I would, I would really be careful about running after this one last thing. I keep saying the last thing. There is no way you can be on four or five boards. Literally, proxy firms like last who was Succecha won't vote for you, you will literally, it's not allowed. You have to be on a certain
number for your CEO. I was on three when I was the CEO. Fortunately, two of them were easy, you know. One of them was American Express, one of the best round companies out there. Ken also amazing CEO. The board was phenomenal, so you could actually do that, and you can do another one that's not so American Express was time, but easy time, if you know what I mean. It was not a crisis. Another company that was on was a crisis and I took a lot of time. And
then the third was in the middle. So it's not the kind of thing that you do a lot of and it's not you don't get rich and famous little don't. Yeah, I want to push back on that, on that last point. Um, so you're on the board or have been on the board of Uber. I'm still on the boarder was still on the bo board of Uber. So they've gone through a lot of stuff. Um, what's that been like, how does that work? And how time consuming is it? Well?
I was on the board of I got on the board of Uber out come of the mess, right, So I wasn't I didn't. I wasn't cleing up. You weren't in them. I wasn't clean up. Yeah, I wasn't clean up. I was at the very I was the last board member, myself and another guy named John Than who were put on by Travis. And if remember when this whole thing blew up, Travis had three board seats as part of
his last as part of his last fight. He was one and he picked two others myself and John were And then soon after that, did you know, Travis, he just picked you out of the Yeah, I mean there's a lot of there's a whole bunch of stories behind how you know, how you get picked for this crap. But I'm trying to get the dirt for y'all. I hope you appreciate this. Okay, you know I'm trying. I'm trying, Morgan, I'm at a point in my life. This may sound
like both. I'm in a point in my life that I asked I'm getting I get asked every day to be on the board or something. Right, So it's now. But at the at the end of the day, you say, well, then it's all because the money is all pretty much locked for your public it's pretty much there's a very narrow band, so it's all you're picking for then is the team of people and the content of the company.
It's not about the money. Unless if private is better, like I keep saying, it's a it's a little bit easier. There's definitely more upside um. You learn a lot more because it's not as structured, so you have you have to set it up yourself. You know. Part of the part of going part of being private to go public, is this whole idea of structuring the governance. So anyway, yeah, I'm traveling. Uber turns out to be a really, really, really great company. Okay, your experience is great, that's what
you're saying, is there. There's everything about it now is so they were in a lot of trouble, right and they were, and it wasn't because of profitability. You know. The story was just crazy place. Yeah, crazy culture, crazy leadership. Actually probably maybe good at individual people. I never got to know them, but together they were definitely not a group of people that you want to hang out with a whole lot. And we when we went in, the board was being restructured for this disaster, and so the
company was aware. Travis was even aware who Travis, who are like and respect and think he's smart. He, like I said, I don't think he could run a public company. That's not his thing, right, he should have never gotten there. But um, I mean starting is good. I mean you just go there's a point where you go a little bit too far and it's not your specialty and you shouldn't really be engaged in it and it's the Peter principle.
But anyway, when you get on. We got on. We realized quickly that this company was, you know, a small, small I p O company with a market valuation of sixty billion dollars. It's not it's like a this is not a game anymore, right, you have it, so you have to actually adults in the room. And so they got old adults in the room, myself and John and
some other people who knew about things. But the thing that was interesting was that they were also very aware that they were on the edge in every country of being just like debarred that they were hated. Right, they were used, They were part of it. But they knew that if they didn't do something, it would be a problem.
So fortunately they we were bought on the board the last two but the whole board realized and the management team we got to do something big, and so we bought in the new CEO, Dara, who used to run Expedia. He's amazing, he's really really good. This is you know, he's the guy who I the firm, who I always look into when we went through the Charles the George
Floyd thing. And they're voting the first company, the first company that signed up for everything without reading the damn papers that I'm in and this and this is the influence you have by being on that board and talking to the CEO and making sure that they can be responsive and what the kind of the kind of multiplier effect that has when something like George Floyd happened. So that's the influence and impact you get to have by being on that that Uber is good. Uber is a
cool company. Exit Mobile is a little bit more challenging. It's very structured, very legal, it's very risky. You know. It's just it has a big operation in Russia. So now we're sitting here going, okay, now what you know not what are you're doing? You can't go visit it. You can't you know, you have to get out. You can't just leave because so you know it, it becomes very complicated. So you gotta be aware that with the good comes to bad. When the bad comes, you gotta
do the work. Do you select certain or do you have certain committees that you only serve on or always, always, always, always every board that I'm on on on the Order committee number one. Yeah, that that's where I started with you to me, and I think it's such a good learning experience, even for a company that's about to go public, knowing how you have to get everything in order, from cybersecurity to your tax situation, all that has to be
clean before you go public. Knowing how to do all that stuff from the audit perspective is every company needs that? Is that? Why? Yeah, well well must I'm with a sitting CEO, so I'm a certified financial experts. I can do it. The problem with being on the Order committee is that it's real work. This is not I mean, I mean really like you have to sign your name to stuff that I've read this. It's not like. It's not like nominations and governance where you can get which
is how we gonna. Let's not slam. Now I'm good. I take that very seriously. By the way, Terry, now I'm gone. But I was just saying how important it is. Not not so four committees what it is required. Nobody wants to do it. Nobody wants to do it. It's a lot. It's so if there are seven board meetings in the year, they're ten Order committee meetings, right, So it's just a lot more work. It's it is if you're not into it, kind of boring. And if you're not good at it and don't just don't do it.
I mean, there's no reason to do it. There's a lot of other things you can be doing. And I just happen to like it and and be good at it. That's the reason NONN is important, important and compensation is important, so that two rocking committees are those two right now, I'm and GOV, which is a whole bunch of glory and comp which everybody seems to like you because you control that, what with the salary, the CEO and other people and some people like that. But I think any committee,
I think you know, any committee is fine. It's something that you can be useful on, you can contribute to. Okay, now I tried to get you to answer this, but I'm gonna try again. Which is that, um, having been the CEO, I know that you've had favorite directors, or at least favorite directors, and I want to know more about that so that when they get on the boards they know how to really Like I've been told by
the CEO, I'm his favorite director. Right now, I'm like, I'm not sure exactly what I did, but I think it helps that I've been a CEO and I know how to not micromanage, you know, give him alerts about whatever it is. But what from your perspective, what makes
for a great director? Knowing what their jobs one of the one of the big challenges always every board I've ever been on small, big, private, public there's at least one director who actually wants to run the company and who who actually asked questions like you know, what was
the turnover of the popcorn? And it's like who that's not that's something that's interesting that you should probably talk to the CEO about over lunch, but it's not a director level of question, and so knowing the most challenging I've been CEO of two public companies. The most challenging thing is a bad director. It is unbelievably bad. Um
It's very difficult for the CEO. It's usually very time consuming for the rest of the board because they're generally out of sync and a lot of you know, we get down a lot of rabbit holes, and it's and it's hard to get rid of a director. Once you get them on. It's reputationally very challenging to just kind of throw them off or you can't. You can't just throw them off, and it's just very it's a very
challenging thing. So the first thing is to make sure that you know what your what your job is, and it's generally not to run the place. And if it is, if you are trying to run into place. The CEO should probably be changed. I mean, you got the wrong boss. So that's what that person's job is. The other thing is it did someone just asshole personalities that you just don't want to be part of. And everybody has a different swing lane that they're into, So let's make sure.
That's why it's really important to the the group that is there already. Just make sure that you like the group that's there. Okay, that's very helpful. Now for people who are still coming up in their careers and they want to, um, get experienced, to know how to interface with directors and and that sort of thing. Um, are there things that they should do to know the boards of director, like
the directors on their company or anything like that. Okay, Okay, to be away from this is okay, it's a bad thing. Stay away from this. You you know, the board of your company when you should know them right and when you're sitting in the c suite or or have some kind of a role that requires that you interface with them on a regular basis or any basis, that's fine. Otherwise I assure you you will not become a member of the c suite if you spend your time trying
to get to know your directors. You should try to spend your time getting to know your job, right because it's it is really, really, really risky. This is not a game of politics at this level, right, they are governed into your operations. When you get in the governance, then there's a lot of politics. But you can't play politics when you're the surf and they're the king. Right, So it's not the kind of thing that that you do.
You should just stay this is becoming right, So we spend we're gonna spend five minutes talking about boards of directors where the vast majority of people in this room will never serve on one. Right. Before you do that, you got to get to the point where people say, yeah, we want that person to serve on one. And the way that you get there is that you have to actually do work that somebody says that's reasonable. That's a person who being the CFO of some company is a
really good idea. It's a good it's a good checkpoint so you can get through. Being the CEO obviously is a really good idea. If you have some really specific tech skill, if you're a master at cybersecurity, if you're good at digital marketing or are one of these things,
then you can be selected. But if you're just an employee of a company, just it's not a bit just it's not a demeaning just it's just like you just um, if you're that, you know, spending your time to try to maneuver your way into the boardroom, it's really not the most useful. It's not the most useful thing. I if I could say over and over again, guys, when it comes, it will come. Look for it. Don't spend your time not looking, you know, look for it occasionally.
When it comes, it will come, and you'll be ready. If you get there before you ready, it's a waste of goddamn time. It's not that much money, and it's it's it's just it. Yeah, And it's not that much fame and fortune unless you get unless you get on the board of Apple, Amazon, let's talk to this fifties that you if you can get on the board of Airbnb before it goes you know, those kinds of companies, Yeah, that's great. Otherwise it's just otherwise you're an unsung hero.
It's for your gratification, Okay, it's just work. Okay, great, excellent, got it? Um Okay? I think yes, she is so real and that's why we love law Burns. By the way, we we we have to You know, most of us are first generation. You were telling me about your background. We're all brand new to this stuff. And if we don't share the information with each other about what it's like in these different positions, I don't know who's gonna tell us because they don't really want us to be
part of the whole scene. Necessarily very good. The point they do not want us to be part of this scene. It is structured. This scene is structured. So I spent a lot of time talking about this in such a way that they can just side when they want you right there. It's just it's and that's all BS right, because there's we We launched this thing called the Board
Diversity Action Alliance. Right. This was after George Floyd, myself, Gabby Salzburger, Darren Walker from the Ford Foundation accompany them Engage were called Tono and the e l C. Why George Floyd gets murdered by the police. Uh that day I had flown to London. I got a call from a very very good friend who happens to be the CEO of a sporting good company from in Europe. You can kind of deduce down to what company it is.
And okay, he's a great guy from Austria. I said, you know, I just want to talk to you about this what happened. And I think I got this right. But and he really great conversation, really really good man. And I said to him, but you know, great, didn't call me anytime if you need any more. I accept him at the end, why why are you talking to
me about this? Why didn't you call stupid me? Why didn't you just talk to one of your directors or And he said, well, we don't have any director black directors. It's interesting, he said, Okay, I can get I can maybe figure it out. I said, but how about the management team. None who's his biggest his biggest customers. They look like us. They're playing basketball, they're doing whatever the
hell you do, football and all of this stuff. They don't do football but soccer, you know, global sc And I said to him, you mean to tell me that you run this whole company and you see nobody who looks like the clients that you serve. Next, call some of the company. I talked to Darren, he had gotten calls. Gabby was the CEO, was the chair of Whole Foods, if you know, right when it was sold to Amazon.
And we got together and we were like, this is really strange that all these people who are calling us great people at least called right and are curious they the reason why they called us is because we're the closest thing to a black person they see anytime. So we decided that we were gonna start this thing called the b d A, the Board Diversity Action A lines
and basically what it is simple simple. Every company in the fortune fire founder now we've done it to the Russell three thousand has to have at least one black director. I don't care, it doesn't matter what you do right now. We got into a lot of trouble on this because we didn't say black or brown, so the Hispanics thought we were and so we did change it, so now I will say black or brown director. And if you have one, you should get a second. Right. If you
have a second, maybe you should get a third. Right exactly, because there's this there's this belief and and this is what came out. You should look at some of the newsreels that when we launched this thing, it's all over the newspapers. We had a question that came from Andrew ros Saukin, who's a really cool guy reporter, you know, and he said, well, won't some of these people believe that. The question was like, the current directors are gonna feel
kind of bad because as you're taking their seats. I said, it's interesting their seats. It's an interesting phraseology it belongs. And I said to him that means that they own these things, right, and then we are now taking something that they own. And the theory of the case that we even have is that there is that they own this space and now so we just have to flip it around and we have to say the why aren't
there eight black directors? Right? And and that's what I've always said is that your board of directors should reflect your customer base. And so if, yeah, if your customers are black, maybe you ought to have black directors. I mean, that's what makes sense, right, So it's it's I just
think that obviously all I did is just present. What we did was just present a problem, right, So they believe it or not, they still have the seats we are still outside trying to get the seats, and okay, we'll keep playing that game, right, make sure you get the right ones and you have fun and all that stuff. Played that game. When you get inside, you absolutely have to be an advocate or else there's no you know, by the way, you know, I've come a little bit
around this. You don't have to be an advocate advocate. But then, don't call yourself a black director, right, just call yourself a director, just a regular director, rector you're a director? And why do we not not everyone has to do everything all the time, right, So you can say I don't want to do that right now, you got it, I got it. I don't want to do that in this company. Got it. But you can't kind of get the the accolades and the distinction and then
not actually contribute to the solution. And that is something that I've kind of had. I've seen there's some women black people who stack up a lot of boards and they get a lot of credit for that. They haven't necessarily brought any other people at the table. I don't begrudge them. I'm happy for them. But it's a different thing if you're doing what Merline is doing where you're literally working to get more black people at to those tables.
It's always a sensitive thing, right, So you go to a company to to serve the company, right, to serve the share you're the representative of the shareholders of the company. So you're not the representative of black people, but well,
or women or but there's a big butt. You are a black person and a woman, right, so you you you bring to that role of representing the shareholder is a point of view that is different from the point of view presumably, and I from experience, it's true of a white man, or of a man if you're a woman so, or of a of a gay or lesbian person if you're straight. Right, So all these things walk
into the room. It's really important to understand that if you shed them when you walk into the room, they could have just gotten a regular white guy to do it. I mean, it didn't really need that. I have a lot of them are ready. So so yeah, what can't be your job Only that's not the thing that you Now you have fiducial responsibilities and you have to meet those first and foremost. Where you shouldn't be at the table. Um, Okay,
I know we have some burning questions. I've been hogging all the questions, UM, I have for about three or four questions. Please make them scinct. Five questions, five questions. We're going right here. I think there are five hands up, so it's perfect. Yes, all right, don't drop the chair now, all right there, good afternoon. I'm bringing Cole from Nashville, Tennessee, CEO of Career Thrivers. We help corporations retain diverse talent. So two quick questions. One will you sign my book
for a good friend of mine? Uh? And my second question absolutely, thank you. It's phenomenal by the way. UM. And I want to say thank you for UM. I'm here because I'm just as good as you. In the Harvard Business Review, the article interview that you did, and in that interview you talked about there was a question about, you know, obviously there's this resurgence, will call it that of D E and I, and what is the solution
for seeing more black faces inside of corporate corporations? And you your answer was numbers, numbers, numbers, and why I would agree with you. You all hit on this. UM. I think it's a bit of a generational um thing where perhaps um. More millennial black professionals and black women specifically kind of run up against the you know, stay in your place, UM, make sure you, you know, serve your time before you can get to executive level levels
of leadership from older, more seasoned black women. So what would you say, UM to perhaps mid career women that are in the room today who are being met by resistance from women who look like them inside of corporations. I love that we're keeping the reel in the room. Thank you. I I halfway through that question, I was agreeing.
I was agree or disagreeing with you, but agreeing with the with the protagonist of you know, do your things serve your time, because there is a lot to be said about that, and talked about this in the book. It is amazing to me the number of people who literally I meet with them all the time, and I've been meeting and I say, what do you want to do? And they say I want to be a vice president
And I say, of what so it doesn't matter? They say, it doesn't matter anything, and that thinking is what stay in your place do some things. It is trying to counteract, right, is trying to counteract this. It doesn't matter what the hell. I just want to get there. It doesn't matter whether I know how the place runs. It doesn't. So, but I do believe that there is always that there has always been. And some of the staunches, um, what's a
negative advocate? Whatever? The hey, who are uh? That's that looks exactly like you and it's and I've I run into it a lot more from women to women, because there's not When I was coming up, they were not a lot of black women, but women to women it was a big deal. And you know, all you do is you push, you keep pushing. It's not I mean a lot has to do with the situation that you're in, the company that you're in, how powerful the person is. One of the things my husband used to tell me
all the time. He would say to me, Ursula, this is not slavery. If you if it ain't working for you, go find another place. Right. So these are all these things have to be options for you. Generally, companies don't hire you and executives don't have you in roles if you're subordinate to them for you to do a bad job. They actually need you to be successful. So you have to figure out a way to maneuver around blockers and haters. Sometimes.
My approach, which is not everybody's approach, and I would not suggest it for everyone, is I am extremely direct. I have been, and it's worked. It's worked, but it doesn't work for everyone. And if you're not, if that's not how you roll, it's it's a damn show, won't work for you, right, So you have to find the way that you do it. You know who your advocates are.
There are lots of different ways around, but make sure that you're aware that you have the ultimate option to find another job and then you don't have to stay anywhere. Thank you. And and what I always tell my daughter is there are no shortcuts for being for mastering your skill, your trade set. If it's fine, if it's if it's writing, whatever, there are no shortcuts. And and I'm sorry for that information, but it's it's it's the fact. Um, Okay, where's the
next question? Have it over here while questions are coming, Bring me your book and a pen. What's your name? Anybody else has a book? Bring me a book and your pen because I'll sign them when I'm answering questions. See how efficient she is? She's efficient, organized, this is a leader works. I was just about to say direct and deficient. Thank you so much for being here. Good afternoon. My name is Tono bos I am a chief staff
at Harlem Capital Diversity Focus venture capital firm. I wanted to I wanted to ask, because you've had the opportunity to not just be an independent board member but also a CEO and a chairwoman. I want to ask for the CEOs in the room, or even the future CEOs, what do you think about when putting together your board, Because when it comes to diverse founders and CEOs, often they may get to a point where they're putting together
a board and they've never been on a board. So I really want to think about what can CEOs do to build a board that supports them and helps elevate them. Question, it's a great question, um My, very really do I I've never had the ability to build a board, you know. I've always had the situation where I come into a company or come into a board that already exists. So and I'm the latest add to a pretty historical, long
running set of relationships. But I as a CEO when I and by the way, as a CEO the same so if I'm the CEO, I generally get elevated into a role in The people sitting around the table picked me, right, So I don't. I didn't pick them, It's just the way it happens to be. First, is the technical responsibility of a of a board, of a director is important to understand. It's important to know what fiducier you know, what's the what are the duties of care, what are
the duties of loyalty. It's important to know kind of really what you do. It's important to know the structure of committees and what skills are needed. It's important to actually know the facts and data of the job and not you know because all the rest of it is glory. But you don't get there unless you know the fact dat of the of the job. I want board members who are pushers, right. One of the things about boards, and one of the things about CEOs is they need
permission to take risks. The toughest thing about running a company is that you have choices to make and all not all the choices are equal, and and you have to figure out a way one of the you know every day, which which you know the five things? Which is the best to do. Sometimes they're small choices, but in your career you'll probably run over run into four or five pretty important ones. The combination buying this company a CS was I mean, this is like, what the hell? What,
how did this happen? Where did this come from? How would you get permission to take that kind of risk? So having a board that can help you think through these kinds of expansive moves are important. So I look at people who feel gaps that I have people if I people who can work with the to the team, like I said, uh bad director takes energy that's unbelievable and time to manage, and it's your responsibility if you're the chair I was a chairing CEO, And it's a
whole bunch of crap about being both. But if you happen to be both, then you a lot of time in managing that. But if this is the whole thing about there is a job to be done, it's not a It's kind of like if you were the CFO,
there's a job to be done. If your board directors a job to be done, learning that job, the technicals of that job, and doing that well with the team, isn't it is the most important things, and I'll just chime into that or so, I think a lot of new CEOs and founders have no idea about how much power and how important the board of directors is. In fact, I'm writing a piece that I'm about to post on Monday in honor of this session for that very reason.
And we do a similar stage black ops ventures in Harlem, Capital of Investing, and so it's usually the first price round. And at that stage you need directors who are going to get you your wall to wall enterprise customers, or who can help you build the strategy, have the relationships and networks to help you grow your company into a billion dollar company. So, um who you have at that table?
And also are they thinking about the best interest of the company and the people who got the company off the ground, or they're thinking about the best interests of their portfolio first, UM I went through a tough experience where my board forced me to sell to one of UM my board members. UM I wish I was still running the company today. So you you really, founders so often don't understand how important the directors are. So I
think that's a great question. That's really funny because I think this is I love this topic right, because what happens the version at the end, what happens with quote unquote these entrepreneurs. Everybody, everybody I run too into is an entrepreneur. Everybody, what do you do? I'm an entrepreneur, Okay, I guessually entrepreneur. Everybody's an entrepreneur, and everybody wants to start their own company, which is which is what an entrepreneur,
I guess does. And they all want them to be a billion dollar company, and they all want money to fund it. This is where I remember saying this to Travis school Like I said, I still have a lot of time for Travis. I think he's a great guy. I said, you lost control when you took other people's money. Make sure you understand it's not your money. It's not your company anymore. So if you want to treat it like it's your little company, don't ask other people for
investments in it. They can say to you, I, you own ten percent of it, now we own ninety. It's time to sell, right exactly. But when you when you met cross that line. It's so funny how many people say this to me, Well, my board one fem like it's yeah, because you work for them now, right, because what we're trying to say here you took their money. You can't actually take the money and actually act like
they're the owners. So it's a by the way, then go off and start another company, right, that's what you do, right, and then and then and then and then and then and then So anyway, thank you. I have her last question right here. She has a flight to catch she has a flight to catch them. Sorry. So fifteen years ago, a girl is walking down the street and says ursula, and you turn around and looked at me as if who is this woman? So fast forward fifteen years later.
It's amazing to see you again. I am a tech founder and CEO. M Tech is a company. We are modernizing central banks and emerging markets and in the US. My question to you, how do I know going public is for me? Genuinely you are forced. It's it's not a choice that you have that you can make. Genuinely, you are. You get there because you can no longer garner the credibility you need. So if you have a lot of enterprise customers, people are not gonna sign big
contracts with you know, ding Dung company. As good as you you seem you are or you need money, so you need or access to significant sums of money. So very really do you have the luxury of you You may have the luxury of timing, but you generally don't have the luxury for good reasons of like just saying I can keep going, I can keep going for a long time, but I tell you, for as long as you can stay private, I would stay private for as long as I could stay private. There's a point where
it doesn't make sense anymore, right where it's just trapped value. Um, you can't get the talent that you need because they they won't come unless they have some way to get some kind of equity. That's reasonable, but generally you you put on what what happens is you take you become an adult, a regulated adult adult, and that's you just
have to prepare for it. And if I think it's generally good for companies when you have to go through the hurdles of meeting Sarbanes Oxley reporting requirements, having some kind of a comp committee that has some kind of instructions that you have to do earnest I think that's pretty good. But there's a point you'll know when it's it's just not for you. But there's a point where it's you wait too long, you can't, you can't do it.
There are very few, very large, not family owned, There are very very few, very large, enterprise level private companies. You just need talent, you need money, you need access, you need the credibility of a set of ordered financials and running through a whole bunch of groops. Emotionally, I would wait as long as post because it's it's it's
a lot of work. Black Tech Green Money is the production of Black of the Afro Tech on the Black Effect Podcast Network and iHeart Media, and it's produced by Morgan Dubonn and me Well Lucas, with addition to production support by Love Beach and Marissa Lewis. Especially thank you to Michael Davis, Germain Hall, and Vanessa Serranto. Learn more about my guests and other texts Rother's innovators at afro
tech dot com. The video first of other episode We'll talk the Black Tech Green Money on YouTube, So tap in enjoy your Black Tech Green Money. He was five star rating on iTunes. Go get your money. He's in love