Becoming a Black Investor with Arlan Hamilton

taking school districts across the US by storm. He's on stage speaking with Black d CEO Morgan Dubon about team building, hiring, and putting the right people in the right scenes on the bus to grow a successful company. From a team perspective, like, I love my team Like, uh, I think I have an incredible collection of people. It's one of the most diverse companies you're walk into ever. Um, you know, gender, ethnicity, background, you know so many beautiful shape of people. Uh. And

they're all really experienced. They've helped build companies. They all have different backgrounds, um and uh and I'm super fortunate for that. The one thing that that make a company be successful is team. Like the idea literally does not matter because the idea involves too right, and it changes over time, and and it changes based on the people that you work with and you're hiring. So finding the

best team possible, uh is super important. And the one thing that you know I always focused on, especially because we raised so much money, was now I have the resources to swing you know, basically in the different weight class. So I went out and hired the best executives. Like, you know, I was hiring executives whose opportunity was like, come joined this really small start up with five people, or go be the an executive at Bird when they

were you know, just raised a billion dollars. But you know, I had a lot of confidence, you know, I had a really strong vision, and I was just on their phone every day. Hey, look, let's talk about this more. Tell me, tell me what issues you know you have, What are you contemplating on this? Just like kind of work through their problems to convince them to come over,

and we end up hiring some really incredible people. But uh, but yeah, like team hired, hiring really strong people, don't prioritize hiring friends, hire the best person for the job, and and and don't worry about domain experience. So like for us, Like we're focused on the sports, so we don't need people who understand the sports. We need people who have incredible death at whatever there's job is. Or if you're a CFO, I want you to be the best CFO possible based on that skill set. And then

I want you to being an incredible leader. Right, So like leadership, ability and skill and then depth in your experience, uh and like your domain. I think it's most important than actual market experience. I'm Will Lucas and this is Black Tech your Money. I'm gonna introduce you to some of the biggest names, some of the brightest minds and brilliant ideas. If you're black in building or simply using tech to secure your bag, this podcast is for you.

Arlen Hamilton is an investor and the founder and managing partner of Backstage Capital, with specializes in investing in women, people of color, and LGBT founders. She released their first book from Pinkuin Random House entitled It's About Damn Time, which is based on her personal journey into entrepreneurship and venture capital. I asked Artless, is black people are the culture that has driven revenue for so many companies, whether

it be in social media, music, entertainment. Why don't investors just go to the well and fun black people, you know, cut out the middleman, same reason they don't do it everywhere else. It's the same reason you have. I don't know the percentages, but I think of any major sports team and footballer the NBA, most of the players are black. None of the quarterbacks are black, none of the owners are black. None of the dish and the dad are black.

Same reason you have. Every once in a while, they'll they'll throw us a movie or a TV show, but who's who are the executives? Who are the showrunners, with the exception of a few who have broken ground, who get to actually make decisions there it's always us asking them for permission, and with the exception of people like Tyler Perry and Ava du Vernay, uh Ray, etcetera. So when you look at companies, are you trying to predict that this company will will make it? Or are you

trying to ride away? Because I guess what I'm asking is some some companies get funded super early, and some they got to have that traction for an early stage investor to put the money in before they actually have a thing. So we invest at backstage. At my firm, we invest in two percent about about what we see, you know, so just about two percent. Sometimes it's less, and so first at the gate. I think every single company that we end up investing in I have to

feel is going to be successful. Um and we are notorious for being a first investor in with no other person telling us or in to t telling us that's what we're supposed to do. And we also have been in several deals where it was obvious that they had something going and that was going to make it, but we always look at it from the lens of we

believe this can be something. At the same time, I think what's also helped us a lot is that even though we are our sharky venture capitalists, we're also looking at it as these are humans and there are a lot of variables that none of us can control the company themselves or the vcs, and we're gonna be with them through all of the ups and downs because there's no way to tell that early if something is going

to work. You can hope and expect it to and you can say, all things being considered, in all things being fair, this should have worked. But then things aren't fair in the real world. So I look at it as, first of all, if you made it to the two percent, there was something there. That's not to say that what we don't invest in does it shouldn't be invested in.

It's just that that's what we invest in UM. And then second of all, it's how can we do everything on our and our power to be additive and help them reach their goals and sometimes that also means just getting out of their way. You use the phrase that you know you have to believe in something like what makes you believe a few things. I'm I'm looking at things that they've done before, you know, I'm I'm looking at what what did you do before you met me?

You know, before you got into this room or in this zoom? How where did you take yourself? And so many times, especially with the founders that we're investing in, people have incredible stories of kind of eat some nature of like getting to where they are UM and and there's always something to behold there. So it's about what they've accomplished with the very limited resources they may have had, or or if they've had more resources than that, have

they used them wisely? In our opinion. So I look at that, I look at our people, uh, paying attention to them. Are they do they do they have customers, whether that be B two B or B two C, Like, do they have something about their product, their service, the charisma of of who they are if they're super early, there's something there and that's why we rarely invest in

idea stage. We invest um emotionally at the idea of stage, but we do not invest in financially there because there's so many companies by underrepresented founders, underestimated founders where at the gate it's a it's a about making money, yeah, not about like three or four years or we didn't make any money and we're gonna be VC backed ten million dollars into this. So there's a lot to look at.

There's a lot of data to look at. But then ultimately that early I'm looking at is this person going to wake up every day and breathe life into this company.

You talked about the human element of you know what you do, and you have people who I would imagine when we were all outside, you know, we'll see you at a conference and not a n AFRO tech, but see you at a conference in you're they're black, and you're the only black VC in the room, and like all this got to understand what what I'm what I what it took for me to get in this room, you know number one, but to get here with a thing. And I wonder when they come to you with that

bleeding heart, you know how much of that? How how do you manage that when it's also Look, this is about venture capital and it's not just about I love what you're trying to do. I see that your heart is, I see your passion. But this is about dollars and cents. Still, Yeah, I couldn't do what I do if I didn't know how to separate the two because, like I said, two of what we see, so it's stories most likely that I like that to to you know the other two. Um,

I'll say what I've said since the beginning. This isn't your black Let me write you a check day. This

is not what this is. So what I do in my career, in my profession as a venture capitalist, as an investor, however you want to call it, is I make investments based on criteria that I have and instincts that I have, and the effort to make money for myself for our stakeholders and for our LPs, and what I do outside of that and the other six revenue streams that I have is if I want to be philanthropic, I can be philanthropic all day long, right, So I

have to separate it. Well, I'm not. You're not coming into the room for me the investor and trying to get me on a sad story because I have a sad story, you know. And I wasn't the first person to tell the sad story, you know, that story. I was kind of out it and then I kind of went on that ride. Um, once I realized that it was helping a lot of people get through their current situation. But you can't get me in a sad story because

I'm gonna care like I was car in person. But that's not that's not gonna tell me if in five years you would have upside for the both of us. So um. There have been people who have come in told me their story, come in hot, you know, coming in hot on an email or something or meeting me in person. They say, I know you're gonna at this and you're my only shot. Mm hmm. And I think what they think that means is that you know, they psyched themselves into thinking she's gonna write me a check today.

Where do I you know, where do I cash it? And I have to tell them that we can't afford to do that. I think there was a one time I was like, you know, like your tears aren't gonna get you the check. And that's with me or with anyone else. Also, if you feel like I'm your only shot, something else is wrong, something else is wrong because what I don't, what I think a lot of people miss with my story is I've raised a few million dollars and I've deployed that into two companies with my team.

But I've also generated millions of dollars in revenue the past five years. I've also bootstrapped the company to keep the lights on every single year and every single month without very much outside help. So I know that there's no one person, no rich person, who is my only shot. You know, I have gotten creative every single year. So when people come to me and they have a sad story, I feel that paying with them, I relate to them

in many ways. In some ways that I'll never relate to them because they've gone through things I haven't gone through. But that does not mean that I'm getting the you know, handing my clutch and let me get get my check. Can't because we have so much that we have to live up to and it won't do anybody any good. And I think people don't get this about me like I know this. It won't do us any good if

backstage doesn't do well, that's right. So how do you define seat stage to get You know, every every every angel investor or VC I talked to defines it a little bit of a different way. Check sizes are from twenty grand to Yeah. I think it changes about every eighteen months. I mean it probably changes every six months and then real real change every eighteen months. It just I mean six years ago it was different than it

was than it is today. A year ago is different. Seed. Um, I guess the way and not to be not trying to be facetious, but it's just whatever whatever is after a preseed, okay, Because sometimes I'm like, okay, are you are you calling this your preceded or your seed And I'll get an answer like it's my bridge to seed from precede And We've raised one point seven million in pre seed and I'm like, WHOA, Well, how much the company do you still on? Are really you on when

this converge? Because I don't you have a one point seven million pre seed and now you're doing a bridge to the seed, you know. And sometimes it happens because these things roll, they roll, they roll, they roll. You have a three year period where people are just raising and they haven't um made it to what you would think seed is in their in their metrics for one reason or another, like they did. They don't have the inflection point of having enough in the bank at the

right time or this, that and the other. Um. But I just call it whatever is between presed and series A, and there's like four levels to it. There's a seed one A and most seeds that I'm seeing right now are um they're raising somewhere between two million and five million. There are some outliers in either direction and their evaluation or I guess your their post is somewhere between uh ten and I got you, all right. So most of the questions I'm gonna are from the perspective of trying

to understand how we get more. Arlan Hamilton's out here and how we get more Charles Hudson's and Richard Kirby's and Canadas, Matthew's Brookins and Brian Brookins and so in that from that perspective, from that lens, how meaningful? And I've read that you you invest somewhere usually between twenty

K hundred k typically UM. That might have adjusted to your last statement, mum, how meaningful is a twenty five thousand dollar check a hundred thousand dollarge check to a black founder, particularly LGBTQ founder and underrepresented founder when you're when you're evaluating the deal and like what milestones are you hoping that that capital gets them too? Is it that you're hoping that they can on board more users

or is it that you're hoping they can raise more money. Typically, to follow on to that, because you're the first end, everybody's differ. Everybody's a little bit different because at backstage we're very flexible. We've talked to our LPs from day one to say that we're not chasing unicorns. Um, you know, we'll have some, but we're not chasing them. So it is very specific to the company what the company needs

and wants. So to answer the first part of your question or to kind of comment on it, we in In the past, we have invested twenty five thousand, fifty thousand, a hundred thousand, and in the last twelve months it's

been anything between fifty thousand and one point five million, UM. So, you know, to answer the question, I have to tell you that there's there's layers to it, and that there is a plan that's the decades long, and it's a decade in the making, so early on, you know, And I just had Morgan on my podcast from you know, CEO of Bravity and Afrotech, and she said early on she didn't quite get it, and I understood that, and

we had talked about that in the past. You have to walk to run or in some cases walk to fly, and really got to transport ourselves back to two thousand fourteen. I mean, when I think about two thousand and fifteen, the summer of Stephanie Lambkin, nobody would check for her, Nobody would check for Juel Burke's two thousand fifteen. I was around during the or during the Bravity round during two fifteen. So what I was thinking back then was

I'm homeless, literally homeless. I literally don't know what I'm gonna eat next, and I'm trying to get millionaires and billionaires to listen to me, to understand that black and brown and women founders and LGBTQ founders, they're not doing anybody any charity backing them. They're missing out right. That's the plainest way I can see it right now. So I had, I said, one day, I woke up and I'm like, they're not gonna listen to because they're not listening to me, but they have to listen to me

if I'm on that cap table mm hm. And so I said, I don't know what it's gonna take. So I talked to people like Sam altmanute Y Combinator and his brother Jack. I talked to Michael Saibel. I talked to a few people, Brad Faeld, and I said, what's that number, Like, what's the number that I can be taken? Seriously? They said, listen, we do twenty five tho dollar checks.

You know, when Mark Andreson invested in in Backstage the Fund, and and Chris Soccer and all these people, everybody was like, oh, you're set, these are billionaires, and I'm like, no, no, you don't understand. They're doing fifty thou dollar checks right. So I said, if they are doing that, if I can get to twenty five thousand, because they're doing that, then they have to talk to me, and then they have to listen, and then I can put the spotlight

on these founders. And so that was I when I'm sitting on the floor of the airport and I'm watching people go by, and I'm hungry, and I'm sad and pathetic, and the only way i can keep myself from crying myself into non existence, it's to strategize. I'm saying, Okay, I'm gonna invest in brand speaking of Brian. Brian Bracken was my first investment. I'm going to invest in Brian, gonna invest in Jewel, I'm going to invest in Morgan,

I'm going to invest in Shina. You know, I'm gonna do this when I can, and it's gonna be twenty five dollars. So the first time I had six, when I had six investments of dollars, I got my first real piece of press in like a legal um paper made a lot of noise, and it wasn't about it was it was about like it was. If I look back on it now, I'd probably laugh at it. Because it'd be like, can you imagine that they found six black founders? Can you imagine this wasn't two fifteen or sixteen.

So anyway, when I look at numbers, i'm people will will ask me to be an advisor and take advisor shares for no money just to be around them, you know what I mean. And so I'm not looking at the amount. I'm looking at what do we know about ourselves at backstage, about the work that we put in every single day for a decade, day in day out. How many times have we been somebody's first call and how many calls have we made on behalf of other people?

And so all of it is to push, to catalyze, to to to say what others cannot say for you know, fear of losing something. All of that is wrapped up in check and guess what we might be writing dollar checks one day and the exact same reason. Becoming a Vinci capitalist. There's a lot like raising money for your startup, but instead of pitching your which or your software, you're alternatively trying to engage investors into the idea that you know how to find great deals. You've got the contacts,

the inside track, you're the plug. So while pitching a startup as much ado about putting together a dope ten pages deck, what is it pitch like when you're putting your hat into the ring to be a bona fide investor, Arlen speaks, Sonny, it's funny that a lot has changed the last five years, but a lot hasn't when it comes to the pitch and when it comes to the reaction. Uh, it's still difficult for us to raise from from institutionals

and from certain groups. But the pitch has always been we are under we're under we're underrepresented, so we're underestimated. If we have done so much us When I say we, I mean black founders first and almost if we have done so much with so little, imagine what you could do, what they could do with more, what we could do with more. And it's always been, even even when it meant losing out of money, it's always been this is

not philanthropic, This is not for your heart streams. This is not for you to take this off of your good deeds for the year. This is there is a wave coming and you can either be crushed by it or you can ride it. And we see it earlier than a lot of people are seeing it. So we were saying this, and I was saying this personally in two thousand and twelve and thirteen and fourteen outside of Silicon Valley. So yes, of course there were many who

are now friends, like black investors. That was never a question. Uh, And I correct people when somebody says I'm the first something there other. But what I saw from Afar was that there was a lot to lose for those black investors if they spoke up for being real. And I didn't have that to lose. I was already at bottom, so I I could go out there and scream and

run around and say crazy things and people could hear it. Um. So when it comes to today, like you know, with the Republic raise, we just you know, with this crowd fund raise for the backstage entity to have to share an upside with us, which is at Republic dot co slash backstage, the pitch is the same. As you know, We've been saying this for years. I think it's undeniable now that black and brown founders, women founders, LGBTQ founders

were always onto something. We're always doing something will do without us, We'll do without your investor money, My investment money will make away with or without us. Don't you want to be with them? We want to. And because we've said that and been about been about that for so long, we have proprietary access not only two deals, because we do have an incredible amount of deal flow in the thousands per year, but also in the terms and in the proximity to the founder, not just in

this deal, not in just as this round. But as you get more and more downstream and more strategic, money becomes really really a commodity more so than it already is. And it comes down to relationships, and it comes down to integrity, and it comes down to loyalty and respect and trust. And when you put me, you know, toe to toe with somebody when it comes to those things, I'm not gonna have the most money in the room, but I'm going to win on some cases and that

in those arenas. And so backing this jockey me particular backstage in general, UH becomes more and more strategic the further downstream we go. So the first five years may not have made much sense to people because they're like dollars until more than a companies, what are they doing? Are they saturating. Is it is a quality high? I mean so many. Even yesterday somebody tweeted me that I'm

trash and portfolios trash and whatever. I'm gonna be crying all the way to the bank, knowing what I know about our portfolio and some of the things that are happening. Go ahead, go it. Then, So who do I need to be to be a VC? To be a VC, you know venture capital? Um. I was just in tech Crunch about this because I spoke a tech Crunch and they put it into an article. I'm not big on VC itself, and that's why I say you can call me a venture capitalist, can come and investor whatever you

want to call me. To be a VC, I think you can be anyone who sees the future, sees what the future is gonna look like in their mind's eye. You don't have to go to have gone to any certain school to be a good VC. You don't have

to go know any certain person. I do think you need to have a great deal of empathy for founders, whether that's because you are operating yourself, you've had that experience, you've worked on a company, or you've just been surrounded by that and and for some reason, um, you can you can speak to that because that's the majority of your job, is that management is Somebody asked me what a talent wrangler is because I used to be a talent wrangler for TV shows and music and that's what

we're doing here. You know, I'm wrangling talent left and right at backstage. So I think you need to have that empathy and you there need there's a discretion that's definitely necessary. You're gonna learn a lot of uh proprietary information, and you're gonna be in situations, you know, over time where something you know could affect something else and it could also make you wealthy. But you're skirting the line of either screwing someone over or as bad as you know,

insider trading or whatever. And you have you know, there are a lot of people who are messy at some parts in their lives and they have to kind of clean that up before they can jump into this arena. It is. It is high stakes every single day. Um. But if you could see the future and you have a very clear view of what that looks like, and there are some founders either now existing or the ones that you know will be there, to catch you. Um, then I think I want to see you deploying capital.

There are many ways to do the same thing I'm doing to affect change that do not involve becoming a venture capitalists and playing this game, because this game is not that great. Uh So I would prefer you did that. I prefer you start a company. I prefer you, uh were a backer and angel investor, all those things. But if you are a few, you know, the few people who want to be venture capitalists. Um, it doesn't matter what school you went to, who you know, who your

parents are. It just matters what what kind of fingerprint and you can leave in the on the on the world. It's a quote I found from you that I love. It says, I didn't come here to get your scrap. I didn't come here to get your pity or your charity. I came here to go toe to toe with you,

head to head with you, and to take it all. Um. I imagine a world where um, black people dominate investing, right like we dominate other verticals culture specifically, How do we then get more eligible black And what I mean by eligible was what you said earlier, Like they have the loyalty, they have the trust that sort of thing. How do we get more of those black people to

consider roles in investing? In your opinion, oh, I mean in my experience, UM, there's been a lot of interest because people just here the idea of being an investor and they think that makes you know, I get to work with money like that's interesting to me. I get

to make those decisions. UM. Personally, what I what I know the next decade of my life will be is in addition to direct investments in companies the same way I just spent the last decade working on that, UM, the next decade will be in addition to that, is me backing more and more fund managers who are emerging because to me, that's really where things get interesting, the catalyzing and the impact you have there. And I don't just mean like social impact, I mean just impact on

the world. Uh. Legacy, I guess is incredible there because it's tenfold in any kind of calculation. UM. So I think I know that. That's where I've piloted this idea with about a dozen funds led by underrepresented underestimated emerging managers UM, not exclusively, but mainly that and for the past two years or so and that'll probably look like a hundred funds over the next decade and kind of spread the not only the money but the information that

I have. I'm always counseling about information all day long, so I think some of that will become more like I'm talking about it now. But you know, imagine a world where there are more fund of funds and maybe things that are like accelerators for for investors like that. To me, I've been trying to make that happen since

two thousand and sixteen. It hasn't been the right time, but I think it's I've I've reached the point where I could do something like that, and I think showing like being able to articulate and show the through line for people. Um Olan Douglas is a black man who has a hundred and fifty or sixty million dollar fund called Motley Fool Ventures, and he does a really great job of explaining why black people need to be venture backed and adventure uh. He was on my podcast Your

First Million a few weeks ago. And I think that the more um successful Black companies there are, the more you're gonna learn about how they got there. What's the through line? Right the more television shows and movies and games and podcasts that portray black excellence in this way and other in this way, the more people will say, how did they get from there to there? I want to be part of that. I want that. So it's not just in um, you know the people you named,

you just multiply that by ten. So maybe fifty or a hundred of us within a room. That's great. But we ourselves in the black tech investing community, which is not a lot of us, but it's more than people think we can fill a room. For sure. We have to think about things in an abundance mindset and a succession succession mindset of who's after us? Like I said recently on Twitter, we will, all of us living will one day be the ancestors to somebody. How are we

going to proceed accordingly? So I think there's a lot of like, let's make sure that we're good, because a lot of us came from circumstances that weren't. But it always I always think, you know, I'm always gravitating towards the people who are saying, how do how do I share it? Like thinking like you said, Candice and Brian, like what they're doing in St. Louis and what they've been doing since day one in their companies and their accelerator and now are they're fun and Cincinnati? Yeah, exactly

mean all of that. Um, That's what I gravitate towards is like, there's enough for all of us. There's plenty. There's stuff that's not gonna even be used, there's gonna be scraps left over, but we don't have to all fight on this corner where there's all this abundance for us. There's another quote that that you said. It was people who interview me or are you know one insights for me? They are always asking me about trends um, and I

just don't care about trends. Unquote. In context of that, I'd like to understand how you think about being genuine to what matters to you and how that how that might make financial sense from their perspective of providing returns, because I would imagine most vcs are looking at trends because those have what would be the success indicators. M hmm. What do you say to that? Who said it? Was it Steve Jobs? Somebody said the best way to predict the futures to make It's right that's to me. I mean,

if I'm looking at trends, I'm too late. I think I'm too late if it's trendy. If it's trendy, you know, I'm too late. I'm looking at the pulse of things early as possible. This is what I think the future will look like, and therefore I need to back the things that will be prepared for that future rather than oh wow, this thing everybody is on, um it must be good because everybody's on it. Let's let's hit your ride.

And I also it's also because I would be disingenuous if I disingenuous if I said that I'm some sort of you know, financial scholar. You know that I keep up with what's going on on Wall Street to Main Street. That is, I don't I get off. I often get asked to go on like squawk Box and things like that, and I'm like, you don't want me on squad. I don't want me because all I'm gonna say is I

don't know. I don't know. But what I can tell you is ask me a question about being there for the founder at three o'clock in the morning when they don't know if they should be acquired or not, or they keep going with their dream and they're worried about their board firing them because they didn't take the right answer. Ask me what happens when someone passes away and other people are reaching out to ask about, you know, other types of things that are not important in that moment.

In my opinion, all of that um so so trends. I'm not like saying that. Like I even on my podcast, I'll talk about things that are of the day, you know, kind of with wonder and whatever. You know, curiosity with the curiosity got me here. But I'm not going to pretend that I have any sort of expertise in places that I don't. I have expertise in certain places. I don't know many people who can explain how to build a fund the way that I can. So I'm going to share that expertise as much as I can for

other people. But I don't know about certain things that are that are trending. And also I'm such a nonfomo person, so I don't I mean, it took me months to even sign up for Clubhouse. I haven't signed up for Dispo. I love everybody having a good time, and just don't I want my stream cheese, my daet coke. Come up in a hospital, the General Hospital. Oh General Oh, don't get me started on General Hospital. I don't. Actually, General Hospital is a fantastic television program. Okay, we'll take your

word for it. Yeah, you're watching that show. It's beautiful. I've been on the set. This is this is what I want. So I missed my forties birthday just in October because of COVID. What I want from my forty one if you're listening ABC Prospect Park, what I want is for Laura Right, who plays Carl Granthos. Yes, give me a soap opera slap on camera on set. I want to have one line and her she has one mine and then she slaps me and we recorded and I use it as again some give you your squawk

bok answer. I have no idea what this so far out of the world, like you know, you know, put me on, put me on the reel or something. But I'd probably heard some feelings at squawk Box, because I would, you know, say, most things were silly they were talking about. I really appreciate people like Um, Charles Hudson, Monique Waters, Marlin,

Marlon Nichols, Um Brian, etcetera, etcetera. Because they love the to me, they're all like they're all Dwayne Wayne to me, you know, like they that got that college swag or that intellectual swag to them. And I also make it moves. So, UM, I love that you talked about, you know, being there for that founder at those crossroads of their at their company because each all the story. Um on an interview I saw about you wrote keep Going on a white board in one of your old apartments and surrounded by

all of the you know, strategy. It was this big words and keep going and you have to force yourself to look at that sometimes because it got rough. And so how do you know when the path you're on is the wrong path? Then? However, because the reason I ask is because some people will look at let's say, like the Rodney Williams of the world and the Jessica Matthews and see that they're building these you know, moonshot companies, these hu monkous companies, and we want to we want

to do that. But our path may be a really great lifestyle company. And so but we have this big keep going on our dashboard and in our mirror in the morning that says, no, keep going, but what we really should be doing is focused on our path. Well, Mike, keep going was focused on your path. Might keep going was not to build injuries at Rowitz Mike or Sequoya

or a kind of persons. Might keep going was right next to stay true to yourself, you know in spirit um, so they keep going isn't a keep hustling, keeping you know, gott to move, move move, it's don't give up, like don't don't stop because what you're doing most people can't understand, or what you're doing hasn't paid off for you yet. That it is a it kept me going, and it

still does. You know, my version of it now keeps me going of so many days even today like today, and you know, relatively even this year, so many days I go for days where people are telling me behind closed doors, you can't do that. We're not gonna do that. You're not going to do that. There's no way, no, no, no, no no. And they're also saying like, but if you played by our rules, we got you. So might keep

going is don't give in, don't give up. You know, there are some people who should be creating with Jessica Matthews is creating, and there are some people who should be creating the lifestyle brands that you've described, And there are some people who should be employee number seventeen of either one, and all three of them have every bit of the same respect for me and should feel incredibly good about themselves, because my whole thing is like, you

can only live for yourself at the end of the day, no matter what your beliefs are, your belief system about spirituality or the afterlife or all that. One thing I think most people can agree on is that in this body and in this time, this is the only time you have, so use it wisely, you know, don't live for somebody else. Um. And sometimes it is hard to know if you're on the right path because it's so hard, and you're like, am I supposed to not be on it?

Because it's so difficult? You know. Love isn't supposed to supposed to hurt, uh, contrary to what most people say. Exercise is not supposed to hurt. It's supposed to burn, but not be painful. That sort of thing. You know, So when do you know? And that's a whole other conversation, that's a whole That's why I have to write a whole book about it. Black Tech Green Money is a production of blackt The Afro Tech on the Black Effect

podcast Network and I Hired Media. It's produced by Morgan Duvon and me Well Lucas, with additional production supported by Love Beach and Raveneer. More special thank you to Michael Davis. It's the cars of von Jan, you know, like the wine. Yes, that's his real name. Learn more about my guests and other tech disruptors and innovators at afrotech dot com. Don't get your money, Piece of luck.