Why You Can't Switch Off (And What To Do About It)

You're listening to a Muma Mia podcast.

Hello and welcome to biz. Your work life sorted and welcome to the new era of BIZ. It is going to be like a tailor swift era. We're going to go through it all, but we are going to give you a whole bunch of new things to work through, like some more knowledge for you. It's also going to be really fun and exciting, because work and career can be fun and exciting. We also have a new co host, Lisa Welcome to Biz.

Hey am, I'm Lisa Lee.

I'm a former head of People in Culture and organizational coach and the founder of Learner, a micro learning app that helps you build the people skills to solve real work problems fast.

I've been using Learner a lot. It's so good. I highly recommend everyone to jump on it. We'll put a link in our show notes so you can download it from the app store. I don't think I've probably introduced myself on this podcast either. I'm m Vernon, associate editor and host. Here at Mama Mia, we are very very excited to be stepping into the hosting chairs of BIZ for our Tuesday episodes. First and foremost, we have to thank Michelle Batisby and so Hurst, our brilliant career coaches

Today we're diving into a topic that's definitely hit me hard at different points in my career.

The workaholic trap.

You know, it feeling like you should always be working, even when you're not sure it's getting you anywhere.

Yeah, it's like that always on, right, Like you are constantly thinking about work, and when you're not thinking about work, it's because you're doing work and that's it.

Yeah, they're always on feeling exactly, And I think a lot of us, especially if you came up on that girl boss hustle culture stage of life, have fallen into this trap at some point because it's what was expected of us and it's where we saw people achieving and so success. So today when I'm packing, why it happens, how to spot it in yourself, and most importantly, how to start breaking free from it?

Okay Li. So we asked around about the workaholic tendencies and the confessions we got. Well, yes, some of them were very funny, also very concerning. Here's what we got.

Hi, I'm Alicia and I'm a bit of a workaholic.

I haven't taken a proper holiday in three years because I'm afraid everything will fall apart without me. Three years is insane, I know.

Let me just swish off.

Hi.

I'm Ella and I'm a workaholic.

I have no boundaries.

I've even replied to emails during my kids' school concerts. Email addictions real, it is real.

I feel slightly better about mine.

Hi.

I'm Tina and I'm a bit of a workaholic. I never have my work notifications turned off. I'm always free to answer the phone no matter what time it is, Constantly getting back to emails day and night. I've got a bit of a problem.

No, Tina, there's no good near switch off girl.

Hi, I'm Zara and I'm a workaholic.

I really love what I do, but I've worked through every public holiday this year.

It's a tough one. I relate to that hard related holiday.

Yeah, that's no good.

I talk to so many people at the moment who are coming in and out of this workaholic trap too. Sorry, there's a lot of people feeling it. I think we should talk about where this trap actually starts, because it usually doesn't just come from nowhere. For me, it built up really early, and it built up from something really simple, like I work hard.

You've picked that up already done a few things.

I've always really enjoyed what I do, though, and so I've confused those things and I wanted to be someone that people could rely on. So I've always been rewarded for that as well, like promotions, you know, being the go to, always delivering, always pushing to do better and being known for it, and when something's working, you've really double down on it. So that kind of reinforcement became

Right? That behavior became part of how I.

Operated all the time throughout my career, and you know as well as I do, that that is not sustainable. So the trap is that the more that you become that person, the harder it is to stop. Like people expect it, you expect it of yourself, and before you know it, working all the time just becomes the norm. And it can work for a while, and it did work for me for quite a while, but there's always a point where you hit a limit.

Something shifts.

Maybe it's your energy, maybe it's your priority, it's something in your personal life change.

Now.

Yes, generally you.

Can and workaholic yourself into burnout right, whatever it is. You realize then that this way of working is not working for me and it's not going to get me to where I want to go next.

Yeah, do you relate with like being this workaholic?

I think in the beginning of my career, I definitely was a workaholic, especially when I first started this job here at Muma Mea, because I started here when I was quite young. I've talked about this many times. I think I was like twenty one turning twenty two or something like that, and now I'm twenty nine and I remember when I started, the only person I knew who had like the big career that I wanted to achieve

Yes, I think that's really interesting. The point you rise around the people around you. So when I was a workaholic, one of my fasors of being a workaholic, I was also a team leader, and there are a group of people around me. We were a really high performing team, and I often wondered to myself, like did I recruit workaholics or did I teach them to become workaholics.

That's actually such a good point because I do think, yeah, exactly what you said. It's STI your environment and even like I guess the people you keep in your lifestyle as well, because I feel like the one point in your life where you can switch off and not be workaholic is when you're not at work. But then all my friends and my closest friends are also in the same line and work at me. Like they're all journalists,

Yes, exactly, and what you were saying earlier about your mum, right, and that was your image. I think it becomes the stories that we tell ourselves as well. One of my stories that I was telling myself was that you know, people can rely on me. Therefore I don't want to let people down, and so I'll keep working to make

But last year was.

Huge for me because I worked myself basically into burnout twice twice, Yes, twice in one year. It's quite a lot, right, So, as I was coming through the second point of realizing that I'd hit burnout, I was like, something has got to change.

How did you realize that you hit burnout?

There's a couple of signs, and I think you have a podcast and we'll link to it in the show notes around the actual signs of burnout. But there's this feeling of like absolute physical and mental exhaustion. Yeah, and to the point where you just like stare at the screen and not like get anything done. You're like, oh, I just don't even know where to start, so you almost like crippled by it. Yeah, the exhaustion was a big, big sign for me because I hadn't really felt that way.

Working going forward.

So that's when I started paying attention to the signs, and honestly, they weren't really dramatic. Like I mentioned one before was like just feeling really physically tired. But it can also be small stuff that leads into this, like identifying that you're in workholic mode. So one you said before like must be on twenty four to seven. Yeah, another one was mine. I was very guilty of this, thinking about how you can free out more time to work.

So, oh my god, I've done this. Ye. It's embarrassing.

Yeah, And do you know what when you clock in your head you're like, ooh, I don't think that's quite right. Like I was calculating mentally, like if that happened, then I could actually squeeze in an hour here.

Yeah, you've done that.

I've done that. My big tell is when I wake up and the first thing I do is check my cycle or check my emails yep, because it usually is check Instagram, which is it as unhealthy? Yes, but it's a social app versus a work app. Exactly when when I wake up and I'm like, what happened on CYC when I was sleep? Like, nothing's happened. Everyone else was asleep as well. But it's just one of those things where I'm like, oh, I'm dipping in again.

Yes, as one hundred percent of sign One of my signs as well was that thinking TV was a waste of time, wouldn't you be doing something productive with your time? Relaxing is a waste of time? Is something I actually set out loud.

My god, my mom would love here, which.

It's not right.

And I've gone through this whole process of understanding that we are more like athletes than we realize at work, like we need athletes. Don't go around going I must play game day every single day. There's like rest and recovery and training and things like that built into it. That was a really good analogy for me to like go, Okay,

Yeah. I have a running joke here at Mama Mia and I've told founder Maya and my manager Eliza, who's head of content, and I've said I probably give about eighty percent on myself at work, and they were like, what, like, should you be telling me this yes, and I was like, I actually think it's quite true because one hundred percent for me, like the way I work is workaholic level. Yeah, Like if you want me at one hundred percent, just know I'm going to be burnt out in two months,

Yes, please work a little bit hard.

Aplays work a little bit hard, like you need to know exactly where your libbit is. And because I'm a numbers girl, so when I put a number to that, I'm like, Okay, if I feel myself going to ninety and be like, you can do ninety for a little bit, but just know if you keep going, it's gonna like fizzle out.

Yes, you obviously had to learn that though, because you were telling me before that you went through a period of being like full work zone. Was there a moment where you realize that you could take that shift.

I think it was a moment when I realized that people who aren't workaholics were achieving the exact same things I were. So I think my workaholicism came from what I was getting out of my job. Yeah, And when I realized I could still get the same things out of my job by like relaxing a little bit, I was like, oh, this is great. I don't need to

Yeah, but there will.

Be times where I know I have to pull it back because I don't want to burn out. So I do think you will go through waves in your career where you will have to work a bit harder. Then sometimes you can just like take a back seat, still work up, take a bit of a backseat and just be aware of that. Like, I think, once you're actually aware of your pattern, then it makes it so much easier to control.

I love that you've already told your managers about this as well, so they're not going like I.

Told them as a joke. And then I was like, actually, I think I'm quite serious about that.

Yes, absolutely, because then they're not going like, what is this whiplash? Like one day em is like working on this level, and now she's working on this level. They're aware that you're managing your own energy, which is awesome. One of the things I've grappled with is up until recently, there hasn't really been a way to differentiate.

A hard worker from a workaholic. Yes, but we found something.

Yes we did. When you showed me this, I was like,

Yes.

Number two, you spend much more time working than initially intended.

Which I find this one so hard because I really enjoy what I do, and so sometimes I need to go Okay, enough.

Now, enough, now please do Number three you work in order to reduce feelings of guilt, anxiety, helplessness, and slash or depression.

Well, I just told you about the guilt factor. Let anyone down.

Yes, And I think this also comes in with the generational thing, like what certain generations expect. Like I have a friend whose boss is always like so they manage a team, and then their boss overseas like three teams, okay, And with my friend's team, a lot of them work from home. Her boss comes in and she's like everyone's working from home again, what the hell? And she's like, I'm the most successful team. Like you've seen the numbers,

Last year, I flew to Sydney for the Tailor Swift concert and I took my work laptop with me, not to the concert on the plane.

On the plane and my girlfriend's like, do you need to do that right now?

I'm like, I'm just gonna quickly catch up because you know, like idle time, and.

What did you get done during that time?

Edited some content? It was good, But did it really need to have that?

She'd have been editing as you had the Tailor Swift cons out.

Yeah, exactly, exactly. I still really enjoyed the concert though, Okay, good good, good guy.

I didn't get tickets, so I'm pretty stressed out about that.

Five.

Speaking about stress, you become stressed if you are prohibited from working. This one rings so true to me, does it.

Yeah.

If I go on a holiday, I make it a point to delete my cyc An email and I give my numbers to the people who need my number in a case that's an emergency. I'm a journalist. I'm a podcaster. What kind of emergency I know I think they need from me.

This is what someone said to me last year when I was saying, I get up and I check my emails and it's five am, and they're like, you don't have a global team, Like are you the CEO of a fourteen five thousand business or whatever?

It is so like, no.

If you're a surgeon, different story. Yeah, but not all of us are saving lives. No, okay, number six, you deprioritize hobbies, leisure activities, and or exercise because of your work. Oh i' mean this right now?

Actually are you? Yeah?

And I'm paying every week. I haven't gone to a polarates class in a month.

Oh see, I've come out of the other side because last year I would work really hard and then I would thrash myself really hard at like some like body fit kind of situation. So either yeah, yeah, even this year on like full pilates zen must must be part of my day kind of situation to.

Bring it back. Yeah, it's hard though, especially the hobby stuff. Yeah, Like it's kind of like literally what you said, like, why would you waste your time watching TV?

Yeah?

But like why would we waste the time doing stuff that's not work.

Because it fills our cup and we're not here just to work.

Yeah yeah, okay. Number seven, you work so much that it has negatively influenced your health. This is a big one. I was burnt out. I can't remember what year it was. I became so physically sick. I had to take three weeks off work.

Wow.

Yeah, And I went to the doctor that was like, felt like the flu, but no flu symptoms, and I was sleeping for fifteen hours a day. It was just like full exhaustion, like my body couldn't deal with it. And my doctor was like, because we're quite close, so he sees like all my articles and stuff, so you know how much I work. And he was like, I think you've like burnt yourself out. And that was the first time a doctor has told me I was burnt out.

I think are also much more aware of it.

And if you are listening along to this and you're experiencing these kind of symptoms, go and talk to someone about it. It's so important, whether it's a close friend or your gp. Because while we can laugh about coming through this now and everything, it is like something impacts your life.

You need to work out, and your workplace should be on your side. Like I'm so lucky here at Mom and mea where we take burnout very seriously. It's like, go do your thing that's working yourself where like be aware that there will be some workplaces that they're like, it's still such a new thing, right, like the concept of burnout. There's still places where they're like, what do you mean.

I mean I started my career in advertising and this is like penal City.

I know, this is like fifteen years.

Ago as well when it started, and it was like glamorized burnout. It was full work hard, play hard, and I loved it and I was young. But you can't keep doing that forever. Yeah, Next up, we're going to tell you how you can break free of that and share some of our tips around how.

We've moved out of the don't worry, it's not a doom and glamor.

No, it is not doom and gloom. It's awful of hope from here.

So I thought we could share what's helped us both. I want to share what I've done recently that's actually really helped me start to break out of that trap and also almost out of that mindset of I must work all the time and keep it in check, because, like you've said, like you can eb and flow through this.

There are times when you can work hard.

We just won't want you to end up becoming a workaholic and that being part of your life, right, I will say, I'm still a work in progress. I really love what I do, and so I do find it hard to switch off.

You know. I was even writing these notes quite late at night for this episode.

Got that notification girl, it was great for me, who checks my emails at six thirty eight?

I thought, so keeping it in check and just being much more wherever, and like I think the start of any problem always needs a bit more intention and realization that you don't want to be that way. So a couple of things I did so when I was in burnout Burnout Part two last year, I was like, something has to change.

I can't keep doing this.

If you want to change anything at work or in life, you need to figure out why, Like why is it important for you to change it? Why should you change? Why are you doing it in the first place? And so I booked in to see a coach performance and mindset coach. Oh wow, Yes, and it was transformational. Her name is Jane Martino. She's also the co founder of Smiling Mind. We'll link to her in the show notes.

The next thing I did was something a bit woo woo. We got a prop.

Oh, yes, we do have a prop. I read this book. It's called The Four Agreements. Now, I mean Oprah. Her book review was like this transfer my life. My book review is the start and the end are a bit woo woo for me.

But the Four Agreements you do not give woo woo out of everything, right, Yeah. But I was like, I'm very like open to learning and open minded. So I was like hmm.

I had to push through the first couple of chapters. But then when we got into the four agreements around like you know, what you should agree with yourself and the kind of like work life and life you want to have. I'll give you a sneak peak. First agreement being peckled with your word. Second one don't take anything personally. Third, don't make assumptions, and fourth always do your best. And it talks about those and the minds that you have around each of those things.

It's so simple but also quite hard to do.

Yeah.

Yeah, and that was a really interesting thing for me to do. And I think you know how you're saying, I don't give off weo weoo vibes when you are trying to learn something new or trying to unpack it a bit, you should go to where you haven't been before.

Yeah, that's true.

Actually, what have you got to lose?

Right? Yeah?

Go foraging?

Yes, go foraging by this book That oprazervis transformational. So my third tip is balance like that, intention and control. So a question I always come to myself with every week is what.

Does good look like?

So if I'm going to finish this week or this day as well, and know that I've had a really good day and I can clock off and be satisfied with what I've done.

What does good look like? And so then I've got my top three or four things that have to do that's so good. And so my last one is boundaries.

Ooh, I hate that word.

I know it's the hardest one.

I actually there's someone who's like such a perm I just want to know what everyone's doing. I know, I mean everyone's business.

Yeah, Like, I'll just find out this one more thing. Boundaries.

I think the reason we hate the word is because it feels really restrictive. Hm. It's like when you were saying before, like someone told me I can't work. But at some point you realize that work is more of a marathon, not a sprint, and if we treat it like a sprint.

They were just going to be exhausted the whole time.

Do you have to be doing this for quite a while?

Yeah, you enjoy it too, Like you should be able to enjoy work. And so if you think about it that way, then the boundaries become why do I need these boundaries?

Like?

Do I need them so my work can be more sustainable? Or I can sustain this high level performance for a while.

Do I need them?

Because I want to dedicate some time to other areas in my life as well, like exercise that's also important. And so figure out why it's important for you, because if you don't do that top and tail of why, like why with the coach and then why should I set boundaries? You won't really be fully committed to any kind of change.

Oh okay, I do have a few tips that worked for me personally.

So are they woo woo?

They're not woo wo? Okay, So I feel like if you're listening, definitely take on Lisa's tips. Use mine as a grain of.

Salt's let's go take your pick.

Okay. Mine is surround yourself with lifestyle people. What I mean is that because, as I mentioned before, a lot of my closest friends are also industry friends who know about work were also workaholics. Yeah, have other people in your life who are the complete opposite and hang out with them a lot.

Yeah.

My person I go to when I feel like I'm working a lot and a lot and a lot and it's like kind of taking out my whole life is my Nana. Because firstly, you can't talk to your nana and be on your phone. That's so rude. Yeah, and she has no idea about anything. So we're just talking about the garden. We're talking about what she watched on Netflix lately. We're talking about newsphy she found.

She's probably like, what's a podcast?

She genuinely for the last seven years things I work at Facebook.

Excellent, Yep, that work.

Because I told her one of my articles one on Facebook, and she's like, you work on Facebook.

Yes, yep, let's go with that.

And the other tip is fake holidays. So what I mean by this, you knowing you're a workaholic is really hard. Like even like what I do when I go on holidays or when I'm off on the weekend, I delete my email and my Slack from my phone. Okay, Still, I will have these little times where I'll be on the toilet or no one's around me, and I'll like quickly redownload it, check something, find a computer, check something.

So fake a holiday, isn't it interesting? Like the stories we tell ourselves as well, and how much we're convinced you can stuff if it works it.

My next one kind of tackles the hobby part of the workaholic, where you fear like hobbies are waste of time and you want to work instead our phone free hobbies. So watching movies, being really into movies is a great hobby. Reading is a great hobby. But there's still hobbies where you will sometimes just like quickly check your phone, oh, quickly check your computer. Yes, I try to find hobbies

That would be almost a form of like mindfulness, wouldn't it.

Like it's so nice, like it's the one thing that I can do where like you physically can't think about anything else because then your stuff it up.

Exactly, So it's just so nice. Yeah, I love that.

And my last thing is what I brought up before, it's pick your waves. So pick the times and work where you do want to work a bit harder, and pick the times where you can just kind of chill out a bit.

Yes.

Yeah, I think if we can give everyone like one useful thing to go away from this with is if you are feeling like you're part of some of these workaholic tendencies are calling out to you and the list of you this year with us before figure out why, Yeah, talk to your friend, talk to a mentor get a coach, and figure out where it's coming from. Because until you figure that out, anything you do will be superficial change. It won't actually be the change that you're looking for.

So good. That is all we have for this week's episode of BIBS. We know you are juggling deadlines and meetings, so thank you so much for spending some of your day with us. We hope these insights help you tackle your next workplace challenge with a bit more confidence. Plus, for extra content, you can always follow us on Instagram at biz by Mama Maya for all your weekly workplace insights. On some behind the scenes we did a very special little behind the scenes better shot for you to check out.

Oh yes, business produced by Georgie Page and Sophie Campbell, with audio by Leah Porges. We'll be back in your podcast feed next week with more no nonsense work chat. Until then, back yourself, ask what you want, and remember even the most confident people are figuring it out as they go.

See you next time. Bye.

Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on