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Hello, and welcome to biz Inbox. I'm m Vernem and I'm so first and every week we answer your burning career questions in the simplest way possible because we're all busy over here. So I hope you're really proud because I've done some homework and I've adopted something that I learned on the podcast, and I'm blocking. Yes, my calendar
has never looked better. Really, I've done like, I think I've got a bit too hard into it because I've done like a time for waking up, a time for getting ready for work, a time for leaving home for work, a time to get to work.
You know, no, it's working.
This is good. It's all about experimentation.
It's like, please relax, you can chill, all.
Right, M.
Today we're talking about scary work conversations, how to advocate for more money for you.
And your team, and how to recover when you lied to your manner.
Been there, don't tell anyone. So this first question came in on LinkedIn and it is anonymous, and I know exactly why it is anonymous, and said, hello, I have a question for the podcast. I recently stepped into my first management position after working as a project manager. I was given a salary higher than what I was interviewed for, but still low for the type of role, as they knew it was my first management position. So our summarized arrest.
She says that there was no process before she started and had a high turnover, and she has a growing list of achievements, including her team's morale has been the best it's ever been. She also said that the company has advertised for other management roles at her level for fifteen to thirty k higher, and that there's a huge disparity in salaries between the project's teams and the sales teams. So she asks, how do I advocate for my team and myself when it comes to pay.
Yeah. I just love this.
So there's so much unpack here, but I think this situation can be really common throughout your career, so I really wanted you to talk about it. So I first just want to say that despite some kind of shitty stuff at her company, she's delivering and her team are happy. So that is awesome, and I know this person is brilliant. I think there's a really interesting point of leverage that she has, which is she says that turnover in the company is quite high, but her team is the happiest
they've ever been. So that's a very important point of leverage. And I want to come back to that.
What do we do.
I'm going to give you a mindset and if you can embrace this mindset, this is like almost all you need in your career if you work at a company, Like, if you understand this, you'll be good. Like you can start embracing this tomorrow, but most people don't do it. It's incredibly powerful and it's based on Harvard research, so it's like fully backed. Okay, So companies aren't driven by fairness, and the way to persuade senior leaders is to actually
go in with a learning mindset. So the less you try to persuade them, ironically, the more persuasive you'll actually be.
So what do I mean by that? You need to.
Park any assumptions that you have, Just try and park them and switch into curiosity and ask questions as the first thing that you do. So I want to ask you, like, why do you think they're advertising these jobs that are similar for fifty to thirty k higher? Or why do you think that one of the other teams is getting paid more than her team.
Is it because they're looking for people with experience, so they want to hire more people in that position but actually have experience so they can continue I guess, like this sounds so shitty, but continue like doing the work that she's already started.
Yeah, it could be that.
It could be that there's more industry demand for people in those roles. It could be that that team has a different type of output. It could be that team's working on different kinds of projects. It could be that they're taking her team for granted, and that's like a historical legacy.
Think.
The fact is that we don't know what the reasons are. So the first thing that you want to do is like genuinely go in with curiosity and be like, why is this that, like this is happening. And what I want this person to do is to be able to arm herself with the same information that those leaders have. So information is power, and if you can go in and start asking some questions. So the first thing that I would do is it depends what kind of relationships
you have with different scenior leaders, with your manager. Yeah, and I just want you to start asking questions. So it can be things like trying to uncover what the A problems in the company are. So these are like the really big things. You know, you'll have a strategy at the start of the year, and often halfway through the year those things aren't actually important anymore. You always need to be trying to figure out what are the A problems? Are her team contributing or working on those
A problems? And if they're not, can they be? But really just be starting to ask lots of questions. And then if this information is public about the roles that they're posting that are at a higher salary, Like if that information is public, it might be okay with people she trust to kind of say, like, you know, I'm interested to know why these roles are being advertised at a higher rate. And then you know, what is it that my team could be doing to deliver the same kind of value that these teams.
Are delivering, or what could I personally be delivering to kind of get that.
So I think just starting with curiosity is the first place that I would start interesting. Yeah, and then the next thing that you want to do there is a hard truth that the single biggest factor there's some research behind this that says, particularly for women, why you get promoted it's whether or not your contributions are known. So that piece around visibility and packaging your work. It is true you really need to do it, but most people
do it in the wrong way. So if you think about your sort of performance reviewer and your review and you've got these like bullet points and you're bored writing them, someone else's board reading them, So like you don't just think about like you know, my team contributed ten percent or like I did xy Z, you really have to tell the story about your contribution and repeat it. There's so much noise at companies, and so I think sometimes we think like I shared my contributions in my annual
reviewer in a summary email. It's just like not how it works. So there's a really simple way that I like to do it, which is think about what it was like before. So before she joined or before she started working on a certain problem. Now, think about what it's like now, So what is the tangible change, Like what's been the actual difference? And then if you look at how that change, what was like special or unique
about the way she did it? Like I know this person is doing stuff that makes her team happy that no one else, like other managers aren't doing. I know this person is like doing excellly. She said, she's got a growing list of achievements, so she's doing special things.
I know she is.
What you want to do is just pick like one to three things that are like big problems for the company. Do that change so like the before, the after, and then what I did that was special, and repeat that story to lots of different Oh my.
God, it's so good.
That's it, and like you just have to keep doing that.
And then don't go in and say, like the sales team is getting paid more. We're often given this advice, like you go in and you say, here's my achievements. I'm worth this, this is what I want from the company, Like you do sort of need to do those things, but first to start with curiosity, then go with storytelling, and then you can if you still like really feel like you need to have it. It can be something like, you know, I've been reflecting on the broader value that
I've been bringing and I've grown in this role. So I started here and now i'm here. Can we talk about my path to align my compensation to that, and you want to give them like a bit of a runway, so like to get to that, Like is it going to be six months? What do I need to do in that six months time to get there? What you don't want to be doing is giving an ultimatum. So I see me getting paid more. I want to get paid more, ultimatum.
Don't do that.
That's so interesting. Oh my god. I hope she messages us again.
Me too. I will do a follow up with her. Guys, we love getting your voice notes. And this one came in and it's a question I hear all the time, so I think it's a really good one for us to break down.
I find having tough conversations at work really difficult, and I don't really like bringing things up that are uncomfortable. I find once I get going, but getting started is the worst part. So I generally put it off, and most of the time I just avoid having those conversations at all, which really isn't great. How do I start scary talks with the boss of work?
Yeah, m how are you with tough convers I am so bad at tough conversations.
I don't know what it is.
I have a feeling. It's mainly like performance reviews or talking about salary that I'm on the verge of tears with every single of those conversations.
I don't know what it is.
I think it's something about you trying to advocate for yourself in a way that you've never done before in your natural life. Yeah, and it's really hard seeing people in your workplace, whether it's your manager or your manager's manager, having to tell you that either you're not good enough for this thing or you.
Need to do It's a weird like reverse therapy.
Yeah way.
Instead of your therapist is trying to make you feel really really good about yourself, you're getting someone who's like doing kind of the opposite.
Yeah, it's very unusual, especially in a work context, and like you know, you don't do them that often, so it makes sense that you're going to be feeling always shakes, yes, exactly, So something that I think can really help. And often, like getting started is the hardest part. Like once you're into the converse itself, it can be easier, but just to focus in on getting started, which is what this
question is about. Want you to think about a frame for the conversation, So a really good frame can sometimes be just calling the conversation for what it is and stating your intention for having the conversation in the first place. So, I mean, there's lots of different types of scary conversations, from like asking for four weeks holiday, through to you know, trying to give someone feedback, through to raising something like
a request that you have. So I like to call the conversation for what it is and state my intention for having it. So an example might be, this isn't going to be an easy conversation for us to have, but I really care about the dynamic between us, so I really want us to take the time to talk to you about this. Or another one might be I need to request something and I've actually been thinking a
lot about how this is going to impact you. So I've come with some options, and I want to give you the chance to kind of pick from those options. Just creating a little frame and kind of saying this is sort of how I feel about having the conversation. You can be a little bit honest and then saying
this is my intention for having it. That can set it up really nicely, even just as simple as saying, like, you know, I've been feeling a little bit nervous to have this conversation, or I've been feeling a little bit worried.
I heard a really good.
Piece of advice the other day, which was, if you are trying to give feedback to someone, you can even just say, you know, this might come out as a little bit clumsy. I'm not sure if my words are going to be perfect. It might not be perfectly articulated. But I know that you really value honesty and directness, so is it okay if I just try my best.
I think it's like this really nice frame you can put on a conversation first before you actually get into the detail of the conversation, to just kind of like spend a minute talking about what the conversation is going to be. It helps the other person prepare, and it also just helps you prepare as well.
Yeah.
I think that's so good because I feel like with these conversations, exactly what this person says, like in the beginning. I feel like sometimes the way you start the conversation, you might psyche yourself out and take it in a different place that you didn't plan to. But if you do the framework, then you're locked in, like you've already announced it.
That is exactly right. It makes it so much easier. And there's one other tip that I think is really important. If they know it's going to be a tough conversation, say, for example, like you've had some issues with the client and you're like, okay, you're on email and you're like, we have to talk about this.
Can we have a phone call? Right?
So you're both coming into it knowing it's going to be a tough conversation. Don't start with small talk. Just say to them, thank you for giving me your time today, thanks to taking the time. Don't start with like, how are you, how's your day been. They know it's going to be a tough conversation. They're just waiting for you to start with the bad stuff. So no small talk. If people know it's going to be a.
Still conversation, Okay, I have to try that, all right.
Coming up, we are talking about a TikTok that's gone absolutely viral. It's about lying to your boss and it hits too close to hope to close. Okay, So this TikTok, I've seen it a few times on my social media feeds, and it's probably because my algorithm knows exactly what I'm going through, and I want to explain it to you because it's a lot of text. So it's basically someone sitting at their computer typing, and the text on the
video says me starting a task. I told my boss that I'd started two weeks ago, and then it shows them clicking a link into a Google Docs and it comes up with the dreaded access denied, please request. So I have been in this exact same position. I told my boss I was working on I think it was a podcast script. Georgie, our producer wasn't this one, don't
at me. I was working on a podcast script a few years ago, and my producer was like, hey, just checking you've done your script, Just done your script, and I'm like, yep, yep, done it, done it, done it. And then that night I went in to do the script because I hadn't done it, and it came up with please request access from my producer.
So I requested the access.
And then I slacked her and I was like, hey, so weird. The access reverted and I made her problem. I was like, I don't know how you did that, but if you could please grant me access again.
I was like, I just have to make some forget it. Oh, I love it, away with it?
Yeah if she listens to Yeah, I think you know, this is a lesson that you learn the hard way.
I wonder if you would do something different now that.
You're really do like a win is a win.
Yeah, Yeah, that's true.
Here's the thing, right, Managers don't actually care about mistakes, I would even include like a little lie like this in that category. What they care about is whether or not they can trust you. And so the most important thing that you want to protect is your long term trust with your manager at all course, and like a little silly thing like this doesn't need to get in the way of that long term trust. So, honestly, the best thing you can do is just to be totally honest.
Don't cover up a lie with another lie, and what you find is like then you start trying to ghost things and it just gets really bad. I honestly think the best thing to do is to just say I told you I started this task, and I haven't. And the reason for that is I was feeling a bit overwhelmed with the stuff I had on my plate, and I didn't want you to think that I wasn't on top of things, but I realized now that that wasn't the right thing to do. It actually feels way worse
not being honest with you. So I just want to let you know. I'm requesting access now. I'm starting the task. It's at the top of my priority list. I'm going to have it done in two hours, and like, I'm not going to do this again because I really care about my relationship with you. That's all you need to do and then just like move on. It's not a big deal. Like, honestly, I've manager, how.
Would you take that information so well?
I'd be like, I actually think I like you more and trust you more now than before this happened. Okay, yeah, because you're like that honesty that was the exact right thing to do. I feel like I can really trust you. Also as a manager, you know yourself, like you've done this. It's like when your team does it too, it's way worse to sort of try to keep lying to them because you can kind of spot that too as a manager. Yeah, So just like, don't undermine the trust that you have.
But I also do think maybe there's a sneaky little is there anyone else who can give you access to the thing.
I would probably do.
That first, your IT team exactly.
I've definitely done that. I have definitely done that and you can get saved. So I'm pro that do a little sneaky. Is there a way around this first? And then if there's not, just be honest.
Yeah, just stop before you hack that email.
Yeah, exactly.
On that note, thank you so much for helping us clear the biz Inbox this week. If you have a work question, please send it our way. You'll find a link to submit all of your questions in our show notes. You can tell us your name or you can remain completely anonymous.
And if you miss any of our episodes, just scroll back in your feed. We'll be back in the biz Inbox next week.
Bye Mia.
Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on