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Hello, and welcome to part two of our special double episode on conversations and speaking at work with one of the most listened to people on the planet right now, Jefferson Fisher. If you heard part one last week, you might already be speaking more clearly and with less words, or you might be a little less pissed off a people at work because you are choosing curiosity before judgment.
So how did your homework go? I picked for my homework one thing that I really wanted to focus on, and for me, this has been a bit of a lifelong journey with overapologizing. So this is part of being assertive. And you know, I am a prolific overapologizer. I've actually had it in several of my performance reviews at work. And really, you know, when we're talking about apologizing, it's
not real apologies. It's the ones where you know it's not actually your fault, or you don't really mean you're sorry, you mean something else, but you don't feel confident enough to say it. So after Jefferson spoke on our last episode about stopping over apologizing, I want you to listen in to what I say to him about one minute later. Sorry. I think there's a bit of a delay on this call, which is making it hard. I'm so sorry.
You see what you did?
Fault?
I do?
I did you.
See what you just did?
I did? Now I want you to listen in to what I say to him at the end of the interview. I said I was going to keep you for five minutes extra. I kept you for twenty five minutes extra. I'm sorry and thank you. You heard me say sorry for the delay on the call. What I will now say instead is thank you for working through the delay with me. Instead of saying sorry, we ran overtime. Now I will say thanks for giving us so much of
your time today, Jefferson. So this is why you sort of need to buy the book I think big, because what you get out of the book is an understanding of why you're doing this behavior. So the groundbreaking thing for me was this line that I read, your self worth isn't tied to what a little inconvenience you can be. And what I realize is so much of my overapologizing was tied to my sense of self worth and low self esteem and trying to make myself small and not
being an inconvenience to other people. So where I had a shift was in realizing that showing up as assertive isn't just for how I am perceived by other people. It's actually for how I'm perceiving myself. There is a feedback loop you create when you are constantly apologizing for things that aren't your fault, and that is diminishing your own sense of self worth and it's feeding into this loop of low self esteem. So understanding that is what has helped me to start to change that behavior. It's
still a journey. I'm definitely not perfect and I'm still doing it, but I've made massive progress and that feels awesome. So what you're getting out of the episode today, part two is so good. By the way, we are getting into the work scenarios that you gave me. I went out on socials and I asked you, guys, what are your biggest work scenarios that you really want me to
ask about? And so we are getting into how to stop over talking, how to sound confident even when you don't feel it, what to do when you feel triggered at work, but you need to have a constructive conversation. And you're also going to learn something that you can do as a parent, so your kids tell the truth more. And I start with a question that's possibly the number one thing that I get asked by young people. True.
I work a lot with young people with gen Z, and something that they really struggle with in the workplace is just this forming connections with people at work, particularly people who are more senior than them. You know, they're young. Everyone is more senior and more experience than them, so this idea of everyone's quite intimidating. They want to be respectful, but they also want to, you know, form their social connections.
Do you have any advice for young people in terms of how they can have conversations at.
Work, whether it's young people or older people. One thing that they can do that is going to increase the social interactions that they have and improve their status within any organization is to become the student. Whenever you are talking to somebody, particularly if they are a next level above you, supervising and manager, whatever it is, become the student.
And here's what I mean. When you come into conversation with them, maybe you're curious about how you want to get promoted, or what you want to do, or what you want Instead of coming in with your list of demands, you become the student, ask questions about how they got there. People love to tell stories. Let's say your upper management and I set some time I'm aside. This is key. I'm not just randomly coming into your office. I've already emailed, We've set aside ten minutes for me to come by.
I have a quick chat. I'm going to begin with, so what did you do in your time here? Do you feel like really made a difference in your impact or what did you feel really brought you to the next level? How did you know that this was the place for you? Asking questions that put you as the student, and you're writing down notes because that gets them to talk.
Hear.
How if let's say, Sophie, I wanted to talk to you about a raise, and I sat down and I said, hey, look, so I've been doing some research here and I think I should be paid more. And if I'm not paid more, I don't know if this is the place for me. Hear how all of a sudden, it separates immediately, this
us versus you. You're going to start feeling like I'm part of the company, the organization, and you're now the outcast because you're making a list of demands, or maybe you're trying to not in a threatening way, but now you're putting me in a tight spot. We tend to think that all all managers are unlike us, and all employees are unlike the manager. So, for example, when I was at my first law firm, and this happens everywhere I'm as start out, I was an associate. That's what
they're called associates. At a law firm, there's associates and partners. When I was an associate, I would complain about the partners all the time. I say, these partners they don't get us, they didn't understand, you know, they blah blah blah. They're on their own world. And the day that I became a partner, So if I got an email from an associate and I was like, these associates all they do is wine and complain, like you have this way of just flipping it right, of acting like they're not
all of a sudden, they're not the same person. They're not human. They're unlike you. When you ask yourself instead of coming in with your list of demands, saying so, when you were in my position, what did you find to be the best way to increase your salary, or if you wanted to increase your salary in my position, what would you do? Become the student and people will be glad to teach you why because they love to talk about how they got there. They love to tell a story about themselves.
I think with these, you know, six generations in a workplace right now, and it's all there's a lot of like us versus them going on. Just something you said in that you know, we're all just humans and it's like putting yourself on the same level, but approaching it with curiosity, and you know, every conversation is something you can learn from. It immediately makes that person feel less intimidating to me because it's just like you're just learning
from the experience. I love that we're gonna get now, Jefferson, into some of our most requested scenarios. So we went out to our community and these are the things that they really want your help with. So we'll get through as many of these as we can. But i'd love just sort of some quick advice and maybe one of your beautiful phrases. You're so good at these phrases or these sentence starters. So I'm just gonna go through some
of these scenarios now. So the first scenario is you want to keep communication constructive, but you're feeling triggered or angry in the workplace.
I would use the phrase I can tell, rather than acting upon that trigger. What I say is when you claim you control it, Sophie, meaning if I'm feeling defensive over something that you said or frustrated. Instead of me acting frustrated, which might be me just you know, sighing, letting out a big breath, throw it out my hands,
that's acting on frustration. That's not emotional intelligence. Instead, when you claim it, you control it, meaning I'm going to say out loud, I can tell that makes me frustrated. I can tell I'm getting frustrated. That's you grabbing that emotion, looking at it, and then putting it on the table and still being engaged in the conversation. And that shows so much emotional maturity and conversation. When you can say something like I can tell I'm not ready for this conversation.
I can tell I need a time out. I can tell I'm getting defensive. I can tell. Is a wonderful way of grabbing your own emotions, having control over them, and then more importantly, showing to the other person their effect without you unleashing them on them.
I can instantly imagine using that at work. I think that's what I love so much about the way that you phrase things. You know, so many other experts and even myself sometimes like you hear them say things and you're like, nah, I would never say that, but you know, it's so human, it's so right, and you're owning what you can own, which is how you're feeling, and you're just putting it out there so that they know. I
love that. The next one is, this is a really big one, especially for me, but for a lot of people, how to stop over talking when you're in a one to one with your manager.
There is one tool that I teach when it comes to over talking or over explaining, and it's this mindset, don't be a waterfall, be a well. So rather than feeling like they have to give you have to give all the information, there's this feeling we have to give all the context. What happens when we over explain, it's almost the opposite effect, this idea of the more words it takes to tell the truth, the more it sounds
like a lie. The more you explain, the longer it takes you to get to the point, the more it sounds like you may not know exactly what you're talking about. So instead you want to think of yourself as a well. That means short responses, and if somebody else has a question, they will ask. I teach this to when I prepare my clients through depositions and cross examinations. I say, when
you answer, only answer the question. Keep it short and brief and sweet, because the longer your answer, I can be rest assured the more questions they're going to get. So rather than being a waterfall, feel well, Oh my god.
It's so true, especially when you are communicating with any leaders, we feel nervous. They ask us a question after our presentation and will want to talk for like three paragraphs. And really they wanted like it's launching in June.
You know exactly? They wanted three words, that was it.
Silence and pausing is so important, but I find it so hard that I'm still trying to learn to pause when I talk. Any tips or advice for learning to be silent?
Yes, And I teach this to every single one of my clients. Before you respond, or when somebody is saying something you don't like and you can feel yourself certainly get heated up, use what I call a conversational breath. Let your breath be the first word that you say. Your first word would be in your response, the very first word. You're going to put a breath in its place. And there is such a piece and power and control that you feel when you understand, Sophie, that you control
the pace of the conversation. You are in control of the pace, the speed of the conversation. It cannot happen any faster than you respond. And the person that shows most control of the pace is the person who also shows themselves to be most control of themselves. And I love this rule because you can hear the difference. If you were to ask me a Jefferson, how is your day? And I immediately said it was good? I mean it was real good. I mean, yeah, it was good. It
was good, Zobe. It doesn't really sound like I listened to it, right, It didn't really sound like I engaged and thought about your question. Now, if you asked me how's your day? And I took a breath and thought about it, and I said.
It's good.
You know what it was good. You believe that answer now because I listened, I acknowledged, I took it in, and I thought about it and I chewed on it. So people who like in an interview, when somebody has a rapid fire response, it's usually telling that they're not listening. Same thing I see in the courtroom. But the person who in an interview you get a question and you take a beat two seconds, three seconds to actually take a breath, It shows that I have the control of maturity,
actually think about this before I respond. Those are the people that are more trusted.
Oh man. I think about every communicator that I've worked with that I really admire, and they do that. You're just like, wow, they're really thinking about this. This one. Next one is how to sound more confident than I feel. So you spoke before confidence being a feeling if you don't feel confident, but you want to sound confident. Any tips for sounding more confident than you feel.
Yes, here's a phrase. And by the way, we didn't rehearse these for anybody listening. We're just rolling with these as we're calling. Here's a phrase you're going to like for anybody who feels like, you know, I don't feel
that confident, but I want to sound confident. Is you just use the word confident, So instead of saying I think so or I believe so, you simply switch it to I'm confident that So if you were let's say you're interviewing the Sophie and you said, you know, do you think you'd be a good part of this company?
And I could respond I think I would. I think it could be a very valued member, versus me saying I'm confident I bring a lot of value to this company, which you know what they're going to write on their notes. They're going to say this person is so confident and underline it. I mean, that's just all you need to do is use the word and they will naturally align you with the feeling of confidence instantly.
Everyone listening, this is something that you can do today. I absolutely love that. This is probably the hardest one. So I'm possibly setting you up for complete value here because I actually think this is probably the hardest thing you can do at work, giving feedback to someone who's more senior than you. Any advice you can give us on this one.
So yeah, let's put it in some context, you say, somebody is ahead of you in some kind of managerial role and you need to give.
Them Yeah, exactly. So let's say it's someone who is more seny than you. But maybe they're on another team. So maybe let's say it's not your direct manager. You're working with them on a project, and you don't like the way that they're interacting with the rest of the people in the project, for example, you need to give them some feedback on that.
I'm going to give a thought on feedback that can be almost universally applied is whenever you need to get feedback with somebody, you need to detach the personal as best you can. So if you were going to ask me to give you feedback on your proposal, Sophie, and I said, you know, your proposal really doesn't make call that much sense to me, truthfully. I mean, I just
I think it's kind of confusing. Now you're going to all of a sudden probably get defensive of that because I used to word your But if I used to word the and I detach it as if it's its own separate entity, where I was going to give you feedback and I said something along the lines of the proposal could benefit from some clarity. I got through it fine,
but the proposal could be a little bit better. Here, all of a sudden, you're not going to find that you're going to take near lee as personally because it's not you. It's not your am. Second of all, when you can add on to it. So let's say it's your proposal, and I said, instead of this like, it was good, it was really good. But and all of a sudden, you know a negatives coming. Instead of that, use language that adds onto it. So just switch the word butt for the word and so it could be
as simple as No, I really liked it. And what I think would make it even better, Sophie, is if you did X, Y and Z. So when I use that, when I add on to it. You know what would be really cool as if idea whatever it is, now all of a sudden, it's like we're working on it together rather than you saying it's great, but I would prefer it have this on it now. You're not taking away from it now, I'm not making it personal.
I love that because I'm connecting so many things right now that you've said, which is this idea that it's not me versus you put yourself on the same side and the problem on the other, you know, the flipping it. So don't start with the good thing and then say, but you want to be you know, actually the assertive language. You want to build, so you want to like what could you add and you kind of use that versus just saying I don't like it, and then also not
making it personal. It's about the work, not about them. Keep it focused on the work or the thing and not about them as a person.
And you can do that even with let's say, if it's somebody's words, instead of saying your words, you could do the emails that I get, the language that I'm receiving, the words that I get in this office are not nearly as uplifting as I need them to be. Like, there's always a way to detach the personal. That's the point that's going to get you a whole lot farther when it comes to feedback.
That's clever because I actually thought, you know, I've set him up for Valley, because I've given him an example of an executive kind of interacting with humans. How do you separate that it's not actually like a work or a document that they made, but you just did it. So it's like the words that they're saying, or the you know, the vibe they're creating in the room, whatever, you just focus on that. I love it. The last one is you want to push back on someone, but
you don't want to sound difficult. Any phrases we can use for this one.
There's a phrase that you can use anytime that you disagree with someone without feeling like you have to be rude about it or up on their face. And it's this, I see things differently. You want to disagree with someone, Instead of going I disagree and they're going to get defensive, the spikes are going to come out. Instead, just say I see things differently, or I take another approach, or I have a different perspective. People don't get defensive when
you use words of vision or something you see. So what you're doing is you are not criticizing their point. That's what we typically do. We want to argue their point, but they could actually have a point. It's just the problem is their point isn't yours, and you think your point is better. Instead of arguing the point, argue the perspective and people are much more prone to go, oh, okay, what do you see versus what are you saying? I'm wrong? I could never be wrong, and they get really defensive
over that. So a very easy way to do is just say I see things differently.
It's so true because also that is most of why we do disagree at work. A lot of the time we are coming from different perspectives, We've had different data, we work on different projects, we come from different teams. So that is just like the truth. I absolutely love that. All right, We're going to bring this home now, Jefferson, because I know you've got to get off the call
very quickly. Any tips for making this stick? I feel like I've just learned so much and I really want people to be able to create some change after listening to this episode. How can we actually make some of this stick.
Well, everybody's a little different, so up to their personal taste. But what I have found is you try to only remember one point. So just pick one thing that Sophie I discussed if you can write it down and why, because that just gives you another outlet of absorption rather than just listening, you're now writing it out and seeing it visually. If you can maybe you're a doodler and you like to draw things out, put it on a
sticky note, whatever it is. And then I think it's wonderful to get what we would call an accountability partner, somebody that you can talk to a best friend, that you can say, hey, look, I'm really trying to work on my overapologizing. If you hear me say I'm sorry, just tell me or whatever it is, try and fix it in your next text, in your next email. All of that, it's just one quick way of trying to apply one rule at a time.
I need that accountability partner to help me stop saying sorry.
I'm here for you, I'm here for you.
Love it. And finally, very quickly, I want you to give us one tip for each of these three things. And I'm going to tell you and this is something our listeners can start doing tomorrow to be better. What is something our listeners can start doing to be a better coworker?
More genuine questions. When somebody shares their weekend with you, instead of immediately start sharing your own, ask them one question, any question you could say, what was your favorite part, what was the funniest moment, or what we're most excited about any of that, just asking one question rather than trying to steal somebody's thunder and compete with who had the better weekend.
One thing we can start doing to be a better life partner be.
Quick to apologize and to correct intention. The longer you hold on to apologizing, the more resentment is created. Instead, be very quick to say what your intention was. Say no, that wasn't My intention was to say blah blah blah blah, and the other person's going, oh, well, what I interpreted
was blah blah blah blah. So the quicker you can get to intentions, it's like it's pulling the way the curtain a lot faster instead of just expecting the other person to understand what you meant or pick up on something. So instead of having these unsaid, unvoiced expectations, get in the habit of revealing your intentions sooner when conflict happens.
And then the final one is something we can do to stop being a better parent.
Be a safe space as much as you can so when your kid is coming to you and they've done something wrong, instead of going how could you possibly do this? And what's wrong with you? And exploding and yelling. All you're doing is telling them when you've done something wrong, do not come to me. Bad things happen when you come to dad. Bad things happen when you come to mom. And fast forward when they're going to be sixteen, seventeen, eighteen, and they're really going to be doing some bad things,
they're not going to want to come to you. And that's the last place I want to be in my life is when my kids. If my kids ever feel like they can't come tell me when they do something wrong, I want to be the next person they come to.
Incredibly beautiful Jefferson closing thought from you anything else that you think is important for our listeners to know before we wrap up.
I just want them to know that they can really change anything. If they felt like their communication is not where they want it to be, well they can change all of it in the next conversation. It's why I wrote the book is because you don't have to worry and fred over how you handle the last conversation. You can change everything about your life simply by what you decided to say next in the next conversation.
I couldn't agree more And this is why I think communication should be a core subject taught at school. Jefferson, this was an unreal conversation. Thank you so much for giving us your time and your wisdom today.
Oh my goodness, I'm honored to be on. Thank you so much.
So if I loved those three questions that you posed at the end as well. One thing that really stood out to me in this second part was the conversational breath. I think that is such a good tip and again just such an easy one to literally start with today, and a great way to slow conversations down, especially if you might not even really be clear on like where your train of thought is going, so you don't just speak for the sake of speaking.
I agree, I actually think because I have a lot of young people say to me, you know, I'm sitting there in a meeting room and it's going around the room in an update, and I'm just sitting there getting more and more nervous and kind of panicking. Giving yourself a conversational breath, and even you know that piece around stopping over talking, if you just take a breath first and almost just like let yourself gather your thoughts, it's going to come out so much more clearly.
Another thing that we wanted to call out for everyone listening is Jefferson's book. The Next Conversation is one hundred percent something that you could ask your company, your manager to expense. So if you want to get the full download on his knowledge expert Tease Wisdom, then hit your manager up and ask for a copy of his book.
That's such a good point because honestly, like you can learn from his sixty second TikTok videos, you might pick up a phrase that you can use, but you need to understand your underlying behaviors that are going on and your thought patterns, and it goes so deep. And so what the book does is it really helps you understand the why behind all your behaviors, behind other people's behaviors.
And that actually means when we're giving you these phrases, or when you're seeing the phrases that he's sharing on TikTok, you can actually create change for yourself. If you're just sort of, you know, doing these simple phrase swaps, it's not actually sort of understanding what's going on on a deeper level. So I do think reading the book and actually having your whole team read the book would genuinely create a massive change.
Yeah, start a book club and you get everyone on board this one. I know you also have some quick wins in the form of homework for everyone. So what can the listeners work on this week?
Yeah, so noting what we just said around building yourself a really solid foundation when it comes to communication. There are some very small things that you can change that have a massive impact in Some of those things are what we shared in the episode. So I'm going to run through these homework. Piece Number one how to keep
constructive when you're feeling triggered. So remember what he said, turn it back on yourself and acknowledge how you are feeling, so you can say, I can tell I'm getting frustrated or I can feel myself getting defensive, and I want this conversation to stay constructive. Number two we talked about how to stop over talking. This is a big one for me if our producer Georgie as well. So try this when you were in a meeting with your manager
or someone else. Practice answering their questions with one sentence and then stopping, let people ask if they want more detail, and just remember how powerful silence is is it is so hard. So like if you were good at having silence in conversations. Please send me a DM and tell me because I cannot do it. I really struggle, but I'm going to try and practice this, So say a sentence, stop let them ask questions. Number three homework for you is how to sound more confident when you don't feel it.
So this for me, I was like, oh my god, use the word confident more. So instead of saying you know, I think this might help, you can say I'm confident. This will add value. Just use the word confident more.
Number four is.
How to push back without being combatitive. So this again one of my favorite things that I learned in the episode was using the words I see it differently. So instead of saying I actually disagree with what you're saying, you can say I see it differently, and then using those words of addition that he said, so you know, I see it differently something maybe that we haven't thought about yet, and then you can share your point of view, Michelle.
Of those four, which is the one that you're going to focus on the most, the.
Last one for me, because I am an offender of I disagree and you know that robably doesn't start things off on the best foot, so I will be switching to I see it differently.
Thank you so much for listening to our double episode. Michelle and I genuinely hope that if you can put some of this stuff into practice at work, that you see actual change for yourself. If you do try this stuff, by the way, drop us a DM and let us know how it goes. Viz by Mama Mia on Instagram, and we're back solving your workplace dilemmas in our Viz Inbox episode on Thursday. Bye Bye, Mamma Mia acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on