You're listening to a Mum with Me podcast.
Hello and welcome to BIS your work life Sorted. I'm m Vernum and today we're diving into something that makes most of us want to crawl under our desks and hide.
It's networking.
So you know that feeling when you walk into a room full of strangers and your brain immediately goes, nah, I'm getting out of here. Let's go grab a coffee and pick your brain. Those phrases actually make me cringe so hard, which is why today our career coaches Michelle Battersby and Sohurst are breaking down networking in a way that actually makes sense. And spoiler alert, it's not all awkward small talk over warm wine and stale cheese platters.
Michelle's going to share how she turned the traditional networking model on its head with her genius anti network events, while sof reveals how she built one of the most powerful professional networks and texts by sitting in a gutter, yes, actually a gutter. Plus, they're sharing their exacts for cold LinkedIn outreach that won't make you want to die inside. Trust me, I've used them before and it's absolutely genius.
Today we are talking about networking Now, when I was researching for this topic, I realize that there are five different categories that networking can be broken into, and some of them I feel really drawn towards. Others I feel disgusted and turned off by them. But I also felt like it was really interesting to see networking broken down in this way because it also reminded me how many different options are out there, and I think you don't
have to do them all. So the five different categories are traditional networking, which is your corporate events, happy hours, professional clubs. That one gives me the ick a little bit, strategic curated networking like warm intros, small group dinners, and paid exclusive clubs. The third one is digital and social networking like cold intro social networks like LinkedIn and online communities and slack groups. Then we've got casual networking, which
is coworking, spaces, gyms, retreats. That one sounds, you know, nice, And the fifth one is service based networking like mentoring, collaborations and partnerships.
I've never thought about it like that before. It was very interesting getting that breakdown.
It broadened my mind a little bit, and I think before the episode, I was feeling like, oh, you know what, I don't do that much networking, but then I realized I actually do. Like I'm a part of slack communities, I'm a part of smaller groups. But I think when we think networking sometimes we just go towards the obvious choice, which is these sterile, rigid, corporate mixer type events, and
it can make you feel a little bit icky. A reframe I did a few years ago was actually just to remove the word networking and think about it like you're actually just making friends. It's being social, it's putting yourself out there. It doesn't need to feel big and bad. And I totally agree.
I think networking is gross, but having a network is very cool. And so it's sort of like throw away everything that you thought networking was, and we're gonna show you a better way to do it. But can I tell you something of Michelle please. So I have had four sort of like big girl jobs in my career, and then at Google I changed product areas or departments five times, which technically you're meant to interview four, but I've only ever interviewed for one of those jobs, and
that was the job at Google. I interviewed for that. And so how did I get all the other jobs and change departments at Google so many times. Network that's it. Like I was always approached for the job, and that just came down to people knowing me, knowing my work, and then coming after me. Basically. So everyone uses their network in different ways, but for me, my experience is that it has pretty much bought me every good opportunity in my career. I'm pretty pro Yeah.
You have just reminded me of a quote I heard once, which is your network is your net worth.
Yeah. I love that.
Yeah, I feel like that just describes your career path.
Yes, exactly, And I think that's sort of what this episode's about, right, So, like Michelle you as well. Like I thought it was so genius when I saw you doing these anti network events because I was like, that's it. It's like everything you think about networking, throw that away, and it's like the opposite of that. So I love
that event series that you run. What's cool about this episode in a way, I think you and I are kind of giving away our secrets in that we've got quite a unique approach in that I think we've both found networking to be incredibly useful in our own careers. But also because we do have some level of public profile, people will often try to network with us, Like I have lots of people reaching out to me online, and so I also see the like dos and don'ts for
people like trying to network with you as well. So just gonna be sharing all this today, which I think is gonna make it a really interesting episode for everyone.
Yeah, I'm really excited to share our experiences as well and what we've seen from both sides. So what can everyone expect from the episode today?
Yeah, I think we're gonna be telling you what to avoid and what to do instead, even like small details like exactly where to stand at an event so you don't get trapped in the dud zone. But overall, I think this is going to give you a bit of a playbook for how you can make networking work for your career.
Country Countrie. So, so if you mentioned the Anti Network, which has become a bit of a passion project for me, I suppose, And it happened a few years ago. I caught up with a friend of mine who's a founder, and it was at a time where I was feeling really down in the dumps. I think as a business owner or honestly, anyone who's pursuing their career pretty aggressively, sometimes you can just not feel that happy or proud
or like you're where you're meant to be. And I was in this lull where I just wasn't feeling it, and I realized that I just really went inward and closed off, and I stopped sharing things online because I think that's often the hardest time to show up. And I caught up with a friend shared this ended up
feeling very validated by them. So I went out on my socials and shared that I was finding it a pretty isolating journey and that I was finding it hard to connect with people, and that I didn't really feel like there were many networking opportunities out there where I felt like I could show up and not feel like I have to fake it till I make it or
pretend that I'm killing it. And it was in sharing that that I just got inundated by people feeling the same, and not just founders, like people in exact roles or people leading teams. I feel like those roles can often be quite isolating, and so I ended up saying, you know, if I came to Sydney and Melbourne and did a get together that was like the antidote to how you normally feel in these networking environments. Would you be interested?
And I ended up collecting a list of four hundred people's email addresses.
I didn't know this story.
Yeah yeah, And that was kind of the start of the Anti Network. I decided to pretty simple iteration on the antidote, but I called it the anti network. And I did these pop up events in Sydney and in Melbourne, and the very first thing I got people to do when they entered the room was I created a wall which was just called the insecurity Wall, and I got everyone to write on a post at what their biggest
career insecurity is as they walked into the room. And I think it just set the tone that this isn't a place where you have to pretend. You don't have to act like you've got your shit together, like you don't have to wear a mask. But the reason why I'm sharing this is because I think it's just a good reminder to know that most people hate networking, and most people dislike the environment, and people don't really want to fake it and they want to make genuine connection.
So we're kind of all in the same boat, I actually think when it comes to networking. But I'd love to know, Yeah, like what your experience been with networking and I guess what you've seen as well.
On the other side, Yeah, I fully agree with everything you just said. I see three big things that people typically get wrong. And so for the first one, I want to tell you very quickly about the most transformational professional network I've ever been part of. It was founded in two thousand and eight in the streets of Surry Hills, literally the streets because it was called Gutter Club, and it was just a collective of early career people working
in tech and creative roles. And we would meet every Tuesday outside single origin and we would drink coffee and sit in the gutter and talk about plans to take over the world and help each other. And you know, it started from three people and then ended up being sort of twenty sometimes thirty people consistently every Tuesday, and that was it. It was very simple. There was no more to it than that. And the reason it has been the best professional network of my life is because
all these people we were nobodies at the time. We were just young, you know, trying to come up in our career and now everyone is you know, cut to a decade later. Everyone is at the top of their field. So there's like, you know, founders of Unicorn startups and partners at VC firms and authors and heads of record labels, anethetists, whatever, Like everyone is running their own business and amazing. And
there was nothing special about that group of people. We were just a group of people who who did it. But the point is like we grew up with each other and so I could never have these like deep relationships if I was trying to build that collective now. The trick to kind of doing that is you have to sort of brand it in a way and make
it a thing. Otherwise it's just hanging out. You need consistency, and you sort of need a bit of a ring leader or someone to keep the vibes going, Otherwise the momentum can get lost.
I want us to help everyone find their GUTA club. Is it still going today or do you have a group chat or something.
We don't meet up anymore, but it's like we still help each other. So I use this like daily weekly. I hit people up and the thing is I do see people doing this, so just a couple examples that I've seen recently of people doing the same thing. There's one I saw the other day called Marketing and Margs, and it's basically young people who work in marketing meeting up every month to have margaritas and chat. There's another
one of young entrepreneurial women called Beyond Besties. They've got incredible Slack group and then the most amazing meetups where they talk about very interesting topics from like making money to like your star signs and what that means for were So, I do see lots of these groups people doing, you know, run clubs and swim clubs and stuff. Have you seen some too? We could actually, you know, what
we should do. We should post this on LinkedIn and maybe tag some of the people who are running these clubs and create a space for people to promote their little groups and collectives that they've got as well. Would be cool.
Yeah, I love that because I think when you like a niche in on something as well, it can feel like less scary to join, and like you've all got common challenges or common goals, and so it's a slightly less intimidating environment than like a traditional larger networking event as well. I would love us to get some DMS like a month or two from now, saying that we've helped people find their gutter clubs. So yeah, let's help
everyone get there. What should people not do? Like, what are you seeing people get wrong?
You need some kind of unique premise, right, so like decide who your audience is, decide kind of what the vibe is going to be. You do need to brand, like give it a name, and have some consistency, so whether it's monthly meetups or you know, or weekly whatever it is. Nowadays you would have your community groups or you're you know, you'd have a website for it whatever. So that's number one that people get wrong, so thinking that you can only network up when really you can
build your own network. Number two thing that people get wrong is the worst time to try and build a network is when you need something. So for example, you're trying to find a new job and you all of a sudden want to start networking with people. The best time to build your network is right now. It's an always on thing and that's how you need to approach it. I think that's especially true of internal networking at your company.
Don't try and like make friends with stakeholders right before you want to get promoted and you want them to give you a peer review. You should be making those relationships all the time. So just a couple of quick tips Michelle, in terms of the things that I've seen that will help people. If you have, you know, loose connections with people, or maybe it's people you've met in person, or you've kind of got these connections on LinkedIn, you're like, well,
how do I maintain those relationships with them? So the things that I've seen that I think work really well
to this sort of always on approach to networking. If you sort of met someone and you saw them speak in an event to maybe you connected with them and you haven't spoken to them for a couple of months, if something that they taught you then has an impact on you, go and tell them so be like, you know that thing that you said in that event two months ago, this is how it kind of changed something that I did. So go back and tell them that is the most powerful thing. People love you for that,
no matter how senor they are. Sharing recommendations works really Also, I have lots of young people who'd be like, I thought you'd like this for this specific reason and they'll share me like a link to something. Make it specific and make sure you're telling the person sort of why you think that they would like it, or just like have some kind of consistent activity that you do together. So I have people where I'm trying to maintain my relationships with them in my network and will do like
a monthly exercise thing together. So that's number two. Your network isn't always on thing. And then number three is give first, never take, So try to be a helper. Have that mindset, so go into it. Your network in a way is like a bank account, and in your relationship with someone, you want to be building up a
bank of deposits before you start to make withdrawals. So I think, just a couple of quick examples of what you can give or how you can be a helper, especially like early career, Well what can I be possibly giving to someone more senior? First thing, intelligent responses to stuff they're posting online is like people think, oh, this person's got so many followers, they won't care about what
I say. They honestly do, so like engage in their posts and have don't just do a generic like loved this, have an intelligent sort of response to something they've written. And the other one that I love. Someone did this to me the other day. Someone took a you know something that I posted on TikTok. They then created a sort of extended little summary of what it was and some thoughts that they had on it, and they put
it into a doc for me. It was about the topic of you know, respond, don't react, and they put it into this document that was something that I could share with other people. That was like this beautiful little one pager. So now when I'm having mentoring sessions with other people and I was like, oh, I've got this point, I link them and I was like, here's a doc about it. So this person essentially like made a massive shortcut for me and created something that I will now
use every day. Michelle, you'd probably have some great tips on this too.
I just love that last one so much. And the analogy of the bank account, I think is spot on and makes it really easy to understand and also to potentially put yourself in the position of the person who's being asked as well, because I think for me, the biggest turn off is when it feels too transactional and
you know there can be transactional elements to it. I've got an example of something that happened recently, and it made me feel really weird because I love helping other people and like, wherever I can, you know, like, I'll give the intro, I'll give the opportunity, I'll give the information, and so it makes me feel incredibly conflicted when someone then hits me up and I feel like their ask
is crossing a line potentially. So I had someone introduced to me through a warm intro, and when the warm intro was brought to me, it was that this person was looking for some advice on how to build their personal brand and show up online. So I was like, sure,
one hundred pcent, I ll chat to that person. Then the person reached out to me and actually just asked me to introduce them to two semi famous people that I know, and I was like, ah, like, I barely know you, and now you're asking for some of the most prolific people in my own network, and you kind of want me to put myself out to make those introts for you and I barely know you and there's been no exchange here whatsoever.
Yeah, it's so transparent. Isn't it what people really want? I know, you can really read when people haven't taken the time to get to know you, they don't really care about you, they just want having from you.
It's so easy to see. It kind of makes you feel like shit.
It's like you don't care about me at all, you just want something from me. And the flip side, like, I really see when people get in touch with me and they have taken the time to get to know me, they write something personal. You can see when people have to do these generic things that you can tell they're just sending everyone the one that I'm getting all the time.
At the moment, I used to think this was good, but now I've seen it so many times that I'm just like, oh, this is just like a canned thing people send is they'll say, really like your content, can you give me one book recommendation? They basically just try to ask you a question, anything that will hook you into responding. But I've seen that so many times now
that I'm just like too generic. So just like, really, if you're going to reach out to someone, spend fifteen minutes getting to know them and actually like give a shit about them before you go and ask them for something.
I also think your example of engaging in their content. It's so simple and so easy for you to do, and it really does make a difference. Like when I was at Bumble, we had a whole Bumble Honey cohort, so we essentially had like thirty interns at once, and so many of those interns I still have real life relationships with and will help out. And it's because we're kind of always casually chatting in DMS, and like they've made a bit of an effort to maintain the relationship and it does pay off.
I love that. The other point that you made, Michelle around it being transactional. The more senior you get, the longer you have these relationships for It's so cool in terms of the favors people are willing to do, but you have to build up to that, right, So, like I see, that's kind of the way stuff gets done when you're at the most senior level. People do insane favors for each other move mountains because they know at
some point that person's going to pay them back. But you can't start with that.
Okay, so we've run through what not to do up next, we'll give you five tips that will get you off to a great stuff. All right, So we've covered what people are getting wrong when it comes to networking and how you should be thinking about it. Now we're going to get into the practical gems that Sofa and I have collected. Some of them we've collected from others, some of them are our own. So Tip one is how
to nail where you stand in the room. I found this on TikTok and I just loved it because it was really simple, and it's from a CEO and author whose name is Krystal. Will include her the link to her TikTok account in the show notes, but she kind of unpacked my biggest fear, I think, and why I find those more traditional networking events so uncomfortable, because it actually starts for me from the moment you enter the room where it's like deer in headlights? What the fuck
is going on? Who do I know?
Here?
Where do I stand? Am I going to get trapped? So this TikTok video talks about there being three different zones when it comes to networking. The first zone is the entry zone, and this is where you absolutely do not want to stand, So don't come into the room and just hang around in that entry zone because as people are coming in, you might end up in a conversation with them, but they're going to be looking over your shoulder. They're going to be trying to assess the
room as well. They're also a little bit dear and headlighty at that point, so they'll kind of just be looking over your shoulder and be wanting to move on to the next So avoid the entry zone. The second zone is the sticky zones, and these are also to be avoided at all costs. So a sticky zone, for example, is like a table where you might be sitting down
eating food, having drinks. It's a bit hard to get in conversation because you're eating, but you're also going to get stuck with the person next to you, and it's often very hard to get out of that.
Physical reaction like PTSD from getting stuck at networking events talking to people you don't want to talk to.
A second sticky zone is if you know someone. So if you know someone at the event, it can feel so natural to just go and seek that person out and find comfort in that existing relationship, but it's going to hold you back. So a good idea is to if you see someone you know, be like, hey, great to see you. I'm just going to go and chat to this person. I'm going to come find you later, and just like park those ones and give yourself the best opportunity to meet new people. The third zone, and
this is where you want to be existing. There's two options. The first one is by the bar, so she says that as people are leaving the bar, they've got their drink, they're feeling settled, and they're ready for a conversation, and a really easy in can just be like cheers, cheer someone, introduce yourself and that's a good opportunity to start a
conversation where you're probably both ready. The second good zone to be in is near the host, So going up to the host, introducing yourself, thanking them for inviting you, and then you could even ask them is there anyone here that you would suggest I speak to, and then maybe they can help introduce you to someone else who's in a similar space to you or someone that they
think might be a good connection for you. But by the host, they're also going to have a lot of people just around them, so it's also a good zone to exist in mind blown that is epic advice. Yeah, it's so simple, but for someone who's a bit scared. I also feel like by the host is also a nice ice breaker as well, like this is someone who's there to welcome you, is going to be down for a chat. But she does make a point actually like only if they're looking available, like you don't want to
loiter around them. So yeah, by the bar or buy the host. That's how you're going to nail where you stand at a networking event.
I love it, and one super quick build. If it is a sit down dinner, often the peace or like the two people that you're chatting to right before everyone goes to sit down will be the people you end up sitting with. If it's not like a named they haven't decided where people are sitting, because you'll end up walking sort of into the seating area with those people.
So very strategically, if there's a particular person that you really want to sit next to at dinner, try to make sure that you are talking to them or close to them right before they say okay, everyone come and sit down.
Such a good tip Number two is how to deliver your intro and potentially get someone to help you. So I also just felt like this was brilliant because I think often people can get a little bit word vomity with their elevator pitch and people can kind of tune out to what you're saying. So this is also inspired from another TikTok video. So this creator Grace has a three part structure to how you should deliver your intro
and it's across three sentences. So the first sentence should be what my business output is, So you're not giving them your life story. You were just telling them in one line what your business output is.
Can you give us an example?
So, for example, mine would be, Hey, I'm Michelle. I run a startup that allows female creators to make money.
Boom, so good.
Why I'm here tonight for me would be I'm looking to meet more female founders that are in the tech industry. And then the third line would be what type of help you need? I love this, so I'll use myself as an example. Maybe I'll say, you know what, I've reached this place in my business at the moment where our growth is plateauing, and I would love to speak to anyone who has experience with this and talk about
ways that I could kickstart things. If anyone's been there, done that, I'd love to have a fifteen minute virtual catch up. We could skills share.
Let me know. Do you know what I love about this connecting it to that point we made earlier around approach it in terms of how you can help other people. For everyone who just listened to what you said, I instantly have ideas of how I can help you. So that means that that lets me start that relationship with you in a way where I can be a helper because you've just told me what you need.
I love it exactly. And also I loved that she was encouraging people to be vulnerable, Like asking what you need help with is like, let's not all pretend we've got our shit sorted, Let's get right into it. Like being vulnerable and showing where your challenges might be also just opens other people up to start talking about similar things. And she also made a great point which was people are desperate for something to talk about, and you've just
offered a bit of a topic for the room. And then I loved that in her example, she also ended with I'd be happy to skills share, so like you're also offering something back. You know, so if they've got a challenge, you can also discuss it in the same conversation and virtual coffee. You know, I'm not asking you to take an hour out of your day and come and meet me for lunch.
Like we can just do this on zoom. That is amazing advice. Okay, so that was tip numbers two, how to do your intro. Mine's very quick. Tip number three is how to actually exit a conversation. So do not let yourself get stuck in a conversation you don't want to be in. Be confident in exiting. And this is how I do it. It's called the white flag method. With motor racing, they'll often wave a white flag and that singles this is the last lap you did. The
exact same thing. In conversations, you say to someone I have to go and talk to someone else in a minute. But before I do, tell me one more thing about blah whatever they were just talking about. Tell me one more thing about that trip you're planning, or tell me one more thing about you know, that project you were telling me about. It just gives people an option to like say the last thing that they want to say and you're not, just like, Okay, got to go, be
confident in leaving, don't feel awkward about it. It's possible that person doesn't want to talk to you anymore anyway, So just like, do not go to events and waste your time. I am brutal with this shit. So yeah, just like white flag method.
Oh, I feel like that is such an important one because getting stuck can be the worst part. So you've got permission to leave. And yeah that.
Tip, Okay, tip number four is how to nail cold outreach on LinkedIn. So we've kind of focused on some event networking stuff. Michelle mentioned in her intro that there's lots of different types and one of them is networking online. So the first and most important thing is make it personal to the person. So I'm not going to give you like a perfect template for this, because I just really want you to spend some time getting to know the person that you're planning to reach out to and
try and make it personal to them. So read some of their recent posts, if you've seen them on a podcast, whatever it is. Just try to have your first line just be something about something that they've said or something that you know about them, and then make it specific, so whatever your kind of ask is, instead of saying, you know, we'd love to pick your brain. Michelle knows that I hate that line. You just want to make it specific. I'd specifically love to ask you about this
or whatever the you know your actual ask is. Don't be formulaic, don't be boring. Try to just have something that would make someone want to, like, you know, respond to you. I think the thing people forget is, especially when they get onto LinkedIn, it's like we all lose our personality and we all just start sounding like everyone else. Honestly, the main thing just don't be boring. You are an
interesting person. There is so many interesting, unique things about you and value that you can give to other people. Don't hide that and don't be boring.
I love that. My last tip segue is nicely off that, and it's how to share your wins on LinkedIn, because I think after you send an outreach on LinkedIn, the first thing that person's going to do, if your message appeals to them, is they going to click on your profile and see what you've been up to. And I just think it's so valuable to share your insights on LinkedIn, and often it can feel really cringe doing that. And I think I've mentioned this before, but it was just
such a brilliant reframe in my own mind. And it's from Adam Grant, and he speaks about the difference between self promotion and idea promotion, and there a very big difference.
He defines self promotion as talking about yourself, your achievements, why people should pay attention to you, and it can sometimes come across as egotistical or self serving, versus idea promotion, sharing valuable insights, new perspectives, solutions to problems, and this positions you as an authority without the message being about you. And so I think that flip is just so great and it isn't gross to talk about what you're working on,
or what you've witnessed or something that surprised you. So I think when it comes to LinkedIn, just flipping it and thinking about it like that hopefully will remove some of that like h that you might feel when you're talking about your experiences.
Michelle. To wrap up the episode, I want to tell you about the most prolific networker that I have met in my entire career, and he was fourteen years old.
I'm shook. Fourteen.
Yeah, he textbook. Everything we've just spoken about started doing when he was fourteen years old. He's still in my network today he's thirty. So what he did when he was fourteen years old, I was working at MySpace. He wanted to break into the music industry. He started to help promote a lot of the stuff and events and things that we were posting on my Space. So started
doing that piece around supporting my posts online. Then he reached out and said, hey, I can help you organize focus groups with other people who were young like me, so you can get some insights. So he organized free focus groups with all of his mates from school. They would come and drop them all off at the office. We would do pizza, and I would just get all of these incredible insights. Focus groups are very expensive, by the way, and hard to organize, so that was just
an insane piece of value that he gave us. And then he created a little collective, or he was part of a collective of other young kids who were organizing under eighteen's music festivals. Their first one was at the Oxford Arts Factory and the band they had playing was Tame Pala. Oh my god, I know obviously got famous exactly whereas he now. They did byo community, They built their own community and then you know from there. He'd always stayed in touch with me and sent me amazing
relevant articles. Just was like a huge helper throughout my whole career. He did this strategically to lots of other people in the music industry. He worked at Triple J and then he is now the managing director of a big record label living out of LA and he managed artists like Flume and g flip So and everyone knows this guy. Everyone knows Harry White. I guarantee you someone
listening to this podcast will know Harry White. If you think you can't do this, he started doing that when he was fourteen years old, and I got like, just has an incredible career because of the network that he built. So that's a little bit of inspiration for you. Get out there and do it.
Holy shit, people are creating Instagram pages for their children, but I'm going to create a LinkedIn for Alphie tonight.
I love it.
My biggest takeaway from this episode is that networking doesn't just have to look like what we think it should look like. Sometimes it's just about finding your people and just hanging out. Speaking of finding your people, this week's bus newsletter is packed with the directory of networking groups and collectors that are anything butt cringe. Head to our
show notes for a link to sign up. It is completely free, and don't forget to follow us on Instagram at biz by Mama Mia, where we'll be sharing those grips that Mish and so both shared. Thank you so much for listening. I will catch you in Thursday's Inbox episode where we answer all of your career dilemmas. Hi Mamma Maya acknowledges the traditional owners of land and waters that this podcast is recorded on