Jeff Booth on Bitcoin's Real Future vs What They're Selling You | Jeff Booth | BFM236

The hardest part about your Bitcoin journey isn't learning

how it works, it's unlearning everything that you were taught about how the world functions. Jeff Booth is back on Bitcoin for millennials and we discussed the prisoner's dilemma of modern money, why we've never actually lived in a free market, and how the current debt based money system forces everyone, even the winners, into a game of voluntary serve them.

Jeff reveals why the system's attempts to control money are mathematically doomed and why the truth of the Bitcoin protocol is the only assets that cannot be captured. This episode is the big picture reality check that I think a lot of people need right now. Don't forget that you are playing a crucial role in the biggest transition of our lifetimes. All right, let's dive in. All right, Jeff Booth, welcome back to Bitcoin for Millennials.

Great to see you buddy. Yeah, we have about an hour. So let's see how far we how far we get. I put on XI was talking to you and a lot of people send me questions. So I've I've quite a few, but I wanted to start with, I don't want to say a bone to pick with you, but I really wonder if we can get to some sort of consensus on on the topic of medium of exchange and and store value. So as, as you know, I love your

philosophy. You've taught me a huge amount along the way, But there's one thing that I really disagree with you on, which is you say that Bitcoin will fail if it doesn't come become a medium of exchange. But wouldn't you agree that before it can be that it should be abundantly clear that it is the best store of value, right? That the hardest money to ever exist? Like it isn't cash or any stable coin or any whatever any other

person accepts as a reward in a value exchange way better to discard off than the best store of value to to ever exist. If, if Bitcoin is kind of like this measurement for value, the the ruler and we measure everything in Bitcoin, does it really matter what people exchange value in eventually if the underpinning is Bitcoin? I hope, I hope that makes sense. I just, I just, you know, there's a sequence in, in getting there where, where you think we should go.

Yeah. No, I don't, I don't believe that. And I can tell you tell you why and I just tell you the why the risks of what that what you just described would be the risks. So from that, from that viewpoint of it's a store of value first, right, We've always had stores about why do you need a store of value underneath the monetary system? Have you ever thought about that? Well, I, I would, I would say it's a function of of of something that I don't want to spend today. So so.

So let me let me poke on that. You've needed a store value because you couldn't store your value value in money because because money's always been broken. So what gives the financial system a belief that it won't be centralized and and work? And that's what's happened to gold is a store of value is everybody thinks that it's underneath the monetary system. And then you have a broken monetary system that is the opposite of the free market that has to concentrate faster and faster.

And that monetary system that's centralizing and is it's it's still theft on top of that system because and it's faster and faster theft. And then it has to break the

rules of the centralization, right? Yeah. So so it has to change gold the rules, it has to confiscate or attack another country to stay, to take it, to maintain its advantage. And so that's the world that we've always known. And that's why people think things turn into a store of value 1st and then a monetary system because we've never known something that was a protocol that was a network that was both

at the same time. Yeah, we'd we've never so so, but, but so I understand why you would believe that and I understand and and but now ask if everybody did that and it had to be a store of value first, what would be the implications of those actions? It was centralized, right? What would be the implications of the centralized actions Then all of the governments would would all the rails to it.

And then what would they do now? You know, remember, we're not dealing with any type of technology we've ever dealt with. We're talking about a surveillance state with AI and surveillance state and capabilities that you can't even imagine how fast it's centralizing. When you look at Palantir, when you look at Pegasus and everything that's they're already monitoring everything you're doing, right? Yeah. You're, you can be shut off on

YouTube tomorrow. You can your voice can be drawn inside the surveillance state X all of this thing. And there's right now almost a fight between the bankers and the technocrats. And the technocrats own the means of production today. And people are taking sides within that, believing that they're safe, they're new God, which is centralizing faster, right? And they're using all of the same rails into that.

So now if you just keep on asking that question, what would it look like if you had surveillance capabilities over the entire population? They were even if they were in self custody, but you were still operating in the other system. Do you think, do you, do you think Bitcoin could? Because what would happen after that is you would launch an attack, you'd launch a chain split that you can only use my Bitcoin. Yeah.

And that chain split would be really dangerous for the people that were, were the small number of people and, and the people that weren't using it as a medium of exchange. And there was no privacy in it. And, and, and such it would down now the nodes, people running nodes. And you'd only have to I'm just going through kind of what you

would expect to see, even though some of those are dark things. What you'd expect to see is put a couple people in jail, kill a couple people, say that, say that there is have an event so bad that this this, this group over here created a false flag and drive people into saying you can only use US coin. Yeah. And, and, and I, I think under that type of attack, most people running Bitcoin right now, especially if they made a whole bunch of money in US coin

wouldn't be Bitcoiners anymore. I mean, I totally follow the reasoning and I also think just by the characteristics of Bitcoin, it is already superior money, right? And you and I could use it as a medium of exchange if if you would accept it when Ioffer it to you when you deliver value to me, right? So like conceptually I'm I'm fully aligned. Why I want to ask the question is that although I agree with you get getting there is a very, I want to say social thing, right.

You you cannot force the adoption of of the of the medium

of exchange. And I think it is a rational choice that you spend the money that is losing value, just, you know, as, as the incentive that someone has and storing value today, I'm talking about today in, in Bitcoin until Bitcoin becomes more accepted. And yes, I agree, you can participate in that, right? You, you, you can, you know, I can start asking for more Bitcoin, I can start spending.

So I understand I can do that. But I wonder if that pace or well, how do you think about that pace towards this future that that you're describing? How do you think that goes? It's funny how everybody is wondering what is is so concerned, what other people should do. Right. And, and in in this, you're, you're really saying is I, I don't want to store it. I don't want to spend it as a medium of exchange.

And that is your right to do. But if people don't, then, then you won't activate the network as fast you won't, you won't. There has to be people that do it early. And I've made a decision to put my energy into the world that I want to see. And I have no problem spending in in Bitcoin and then trying to make more in Bitcoin. I have zero problem with that. I think it's from.

So when you said there was a rational thing, there were the rational actor is making the best interests of their their against their beliefs and what they want the world to turn into. Yeah. And so, so there's a whole bunch of rational actors and then there's also rational actors that will take that and say instead of accepting a system where I'm losing money, I'm paying 2 1/2 or to 3 1/2% credit card fees or bank fees to take money that's losing money. Yeah, right.

But which? Which is most of the rational actors in your in the world that you're talking about? Well, or oblivious, but they're just doing it right. They're just doing it. Began They're they're they think they're rational actors and there's other people are going to say the fuck at all I am going to give a discount to my to people who are using my service that pay in Bitcoin yeah and I'm going to make more margin.

Yes. And so I'm going to win the market by by by cutting out the middle men and being

peer-to-peer. And as I do that, and, and so all of these things are happening at the same time and there is no one audience. And, and in some countries, it's not 2 1/2 to 3 1/2 percent, it might be 10 to 12%, right? And some countries that they don't have banking that this is a lifeline. And so, so, and I've said this on many different podcasts in many different ways, but a protocol like this, so always fit the monopoly does a consistent thing to try to protect a monopoly.

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accessible than ever. Visit on rampbitcoin.com to learn more and sign up with code Bram. That's BR AM to receive $150.00 in Bitcoin after your first deposit on ramp. Strength in many, simplicity in one. When you have a protocol or a or a new technology, it always starts not from the monopoly. Who has vested interests inside the monopoly? And you, and in Europe and me in the US, we're in the top of the

monopoly. Yes. So we wouldn't see what happens at the at the people that were extracting from from being at the top of the monopoly, how they might use this and move move value, value from the bottom up. And technology always moves from so it moves from the furthest pit way that people most hurt by a monopoly go first. So why El Salvador went first is totally logical, right? Why other countries are racing.

We invested in a company they did 800 million in in, in transactions 2 years ago, 2.2 billion in transaction in Africa, 2.2 billion last year, probably does 7 billion in transactions and enlightening and Bitcoin transactions this year. Makes perfect sense. Yeah, but and so and what? And it makes perfect sense why people in the monopoly would be making different decisions, because they haven't had to make those decisions. Yeah, again, I agree with that. And this is also where my

question comes from. So it's not necessarily from my own point of view. I'm just when I'm looking at other people and I think I agree with you, you know, in in our sphere of, of the world, their, their need for understanding that their money is broken. Although, you know, a lot of things around them are happening as, as we can see, because we are, you know, interested or curious or whatever. There's a lot of people that are totally oblivious to monetary

debasement. They're pointing all the all, all, all different types of ways not at the at the source of this, right. So that is kind of where I'm coming from. It's like, OK, and I don't want to trick you because there's no good answer, right? But like what is big enough? Like what is a big enough acceptance? When, when, when Bitcoin does survive as this medium of exchange? I just think there's it's it's really hard to put a number on

it, but I do see the same challenge as in, OK, how do we convince people to not only first protect their wealth from the basement that is I think step one that is getting into Bitcoin and then Step 2 is continuing to use this better money right as a medium of exchange. So it does proliferate and you know, more people get in touch with etcetera. And that is how it how it gets adopted. And so my main thing is more like, OK, if that is why I said the rational thing, right?

If you know, your first step is, OK, I got to protect my wealth in Bitcoin. And the thing that I still spend in this transition period is perhaps Fiat money or stable coins or, you know, whatever whoever Walmart coins something right there is this transition phase.

And I just, I'm just curious about the, the pace of how fast that should go versus the future that you are projecting, because you already see that a lot of centralized forces are paying attention to Bitcoin or are trying to choke it, right? Like in in the EU, there's also already a lot of regulation where, you know, people have to register KYCML, all all these things. So there, there is a notion of a

certain threat. I would say, although they're not calling it that, but they're doing a lot of things to kind of narrow, I would say the group of people that that would adopt and and use it. So I'm just just wondering about this timeline because again, I agree with you, but I also think that you cannot force the medium of exchange use on people that is a very individual so. If you have, I see people starting from medium of exchange before store value.

OK, I've been to many circular economies around the world where it starts at meaning of exchange instead of your perception as it starts. Exactly. Yeah, yeah, yeah. And and, and many other people in in first world countries start star value. So it's it's a very unique thing to you that you're ascribing to. It has to look like that for everyone, yes, and, and, and it doesn't it people should use this how they determine to use it in their best interests and what they think the the world

looks like. When I think, when I think about our own agency in this, each of our own agency, which we've always given to somebody else. If you're operating in the Fiat system, if you're spending all of your time and energy in the Fiat system and yelling at the same Fiat system, who's to blame? No, I I agree. We we've talked about this before, but I think it's just interesting. That's kind of what I'm getting at. And but and I don't again, people don't have to agree. They disagree.

I love the disagreement right from, from, from this, but what I what makes me so positive that this is going to work and stay decentralized and secure and impose its building and layers and everything else and, and do exactly what I suspect is I'm in that environment every day. Yeah, I'm talking to those people every day. I'm talking to the builders who are never going back, who are building this. I'm going into the circular economies.

I'm watching what's changing. I'm watching the people move from fear to hope, thousands of them, right who who are adding their voice to this network and him and spending more time and building into the to this network. And I'm also watching people who never knew this unlock and move and move and move exactly what you just described. Pieces sometimes store value first, then I want to learn a little bit more. How do I move more time into it?

I'm watching the entire thing, but what would it feel like if there's, let's call it 10,000 people over here and 8 billion people over here with all the misunderstandings of everything else about what Bitcoin is, that it's a protocol, that it's emerging in layers. What would the world look like

in the noise of the world today? It would look exactly like this. It would be really confusing because because most people, most of the people were in every single person, whether you were in the like the thing I was talking about Peter with the your version of the world, you would think you knew better than everybody else. And those other people were crazy. And I and and so so it. Again, the change is not Bitcoin, the change is US. Yeah. Yeah, I agree.

I mean, I, I'm seeing these comments on X every day. You don't see them anymore. But yes, from a lot of other people's point of view, you know, we, we are obviously the crazy ones and part of the Ponzi and all these things, right? This is how they judge it. And I think we, we've talked about this extensively. So I, I, I want to thank you for the reflection. I will, I will think about it, but I think it's interesting to kind of tie it back and also want to double click on a thread.

It's Bitcoin is very big. I, I would say, right, this is kind of what I take from, from this back and forth. It's like it, it is, it is so paradigm shifting. There's also something we've talked about before and it, it, it is my individual experience is different from yours and your actions are different from mine and and so on and so on and, and

all these other people, right. But there is a, there's a, there's a North Star. We're moving towards something and everyone is at a different level of action, interest and and knowledge, I would say. But it's more about the the moving, I would say, right. And yeah. Because of the consensus mechanism and what this looks like, there's a North Star for you. And that North star might be different for somebody else who's trying to create an empire inside.

Like let's just say if you wanted to create a new financial system that you were the king of the financial system and it was still a broken financial system. You might see Bitcoin as a store of value. And I'm going to accept, I'm going to collect as much as possible and I'm going to keep this exact same rails of a broken monetary system to based on extraction. And if you were talking like that, you would polarize an audience, completely polarize an

audience. You could say you're both Bitcoiners and the people that that looked from outside to Bitcoiners, they would wonder what the hell is of these crazy fights. Right. Because they were looking at it from two different frameworks, 1 is as an asset like you just described it and 1 is a protocol

that changes the world And both those assets and both of those frameworks produced completely different forward views. And so I don't, again, I don't judge anybody by their actions and whatever things, I also expect that if we've never lived in a global free market, then we would have to be then we also have to accept that we are part of the problem through getting Co opted, right? And most people would get Co opted because because they, because they'll tell them sums

of story. I need to just, I need to do enough for my family, right? And I'll take the short term win to get Co opted. The the financial system wouldn't look like it does if that wasn't true. We wouldn't go into these endless wars. We wouldn't go into all this. We wouldn't. We wouldn't see Jeffrey Epstein and all of the all of what that means and then still operate in that same money thinking that we

could have a different result. But we do, meaning that all of that power that's accruing more and more from our actions inside that system that centralized more and more that we keep on telling ourselves, it's not us, it's them. There's always an external validator to say it can't be us, but it is US. And so, so that's why this is such a, This is why this is such a deep conversation and therefore has to be a deep conversation.

If it's the first time in, in, in history, we could, we could actually have a protocol that that essentially enshrined rules of the best of us into something for the best for us that couldn't be cheated. But you would have to expect the entire path along that way it it will try to be cheated. And many people that are saying today that they're bitcoiners won't make the journey. And I think this is exactly why I just said, you know, This is why Bitcoin is so big.

It's so big because it goes so deep, right? I mean, I, I just saw a picture of Howard Lutnick with Jeffrey Epstein on his island, right? And Lutnick loves Bitcoin and therefore other people like Lutnick or, or whatever, right? And I think this is what you're partially also alluding to with what you're saying, right? This is why this is so difficult

and so big and, and something I wanted to zoom in on this. You know, I think you and I fully agree Bitcoin is a is a parallel system that embodies certain characteristics, right, like, like the force transparency, for example, hard cap supplies, you know that are totally opposite of Fiat money right And and, and we think that is a good thing. It serves IT services the the obvious and and and and very fundamental of of flaws of of Fiat money right.

As long as Bitcoin stays decentralized as and and secure, as you say, right, as long as it stays like that, it will just keep on chugging along. We'll be doing what it's doing right and therefore it will show its characteristics as this mirror. You can call it the light first, the dark or whatever right and that is why more and more people will make the individual decision.

OK, this is a a better money, but wouldn't you agree that that no government, you know, would would ever give up control the control they have now over issuing a currency, right, Like however that helps them. So in the US, you can kind of see these did this, this this this market of free market of money, you know, taking taking shape. Like I said, you're going to have Walmart coin and whatever coin and all these coins have to buy U.S.

Treasury. So even though they let the currency kind of free, perhaps it all ties back to the debt of the country, which they cannot really magically make make disappear. Maybe they inflated away into Bitcoin, whatever. But I think what you're now saying is we shouldn't be be really sure if that is a a good thing, right? That is how they might see. It's a terrible. View using bit for their goals.

So, so of course it's going to happen because because it extends their goals, it extend sends a reign of monopoly power. Of course it's going to happen and it's not a good thing for the decent because if it happened and you didn't do the counter to be able to make it a protocol spend in in private, then then it would centralized and Bitcoin would break.

And when that coin, when that inevitable chain split comes, then then you you'd likely be on the wrong side of that that because because of that, now that's not going to happen. It's going to be tried. It's going to be, it's going to feel so chaotic because most of the energy of the world is

there. And most of those people that are thinking in Bitcoin in the piece of paper will side with the piece of paper because they're looking at a store of they're not looking at a store of value in Bitcoin. They're looking at store of value against a piece of paper. Yes. And you can see. You can see it is a SO right now the, the hands in the air and everything else about the price and everything else, you have a network expansion that is exploding.

I was in, I was in a network expansion that that was exploding in the early Internet. I built, built a company there and in 1999 to 2000 everything collapsed. Amazon, I think went from 128 down to $3.

Everything collapsed. We, our company just barely survived through this. But when you looked at the Internet and they and the traffic and the people building things and what was happening, it was like straight up to the to the right. And then you had a pricing event that collapsed and everybody got flushed out. Nothing changed. No, nothing changed. You had a, you had a protocol network and a network effect that was exploding and nothing changed.

And today you have the exact same thing in Bitcoin, the price, the price. And because they're all measuring it from a piece of paper, that is the, that is the thing that is giving the centralized control more structure, more and more power. So, so, so, so obviously that's a really hard concept to, for people to understand.

It feels really easy to me because I've been saying it for so long, but when I watch people make decisions on this network, they're constantly making decisions from trying to compare the old to the new. And like you said, they're 180, they're totally different. The, the operating principles of

everything change everything. So you have to start from the new and what that hoses if it stays decentralized and secure. And then you have to, then you have to say, what are the risks? Because if everybody's in this other system and it gains its power from everybody. Yes. Then you have to think about what the risk through that lens look like on this new, new protocol. And then you have to ask an honest question.

Can it resolve? Can it stay decentralized and secure against those risks and, and, and come to a conclusion? Why or why not? All right, I'm, I'm going to stay on this threat because one of the things I, I wrote down was something you, you just mentioned, you know, this, this, there's a threat I think some people see, and I think you just alluded to it too, right? That you could see a, a change,

split a fork by institutions. You know, in, in the beginning of the Black Rock ETF, there was this legal disclaimer that, you know, went kind of viral, which I think it is just a legal disclaimer. But on the other side, it also opens up what you just talked about, right? They, they, I think it said something like in the event of a chain split, we decide which one to go with.

And that is what, you know, the I bit thing is, you know, the ETF is going to do they have a certain leverage because they can choose theirs over the the Bitcoin one, right by by dumping the old and and and switching it for the new, etcetera. So do you view this as a legitimate threat? Is this going to happen or is just this just something that also exists? So. Like how do you judge it? And This is why I'm trying to get people to claim their own agency.

This is this is really what I'm trying to do in virtually every podcast as people understand it more, right? I'm trying to get them to claim their own agency. And if you're pricing it from a piece of paper, and if you're holding it on one of those exchanges, you haven't claimed your own agency. You're still inside the other system. And you're probably fear and you're probably talking about the fear. What about this? What about this all day long?

Well, you're giving that a amplifying the, the ability for it to create that fear. That system lives on your fear. It lives on the next chaotic event to be able to create the fear, to be able to create the control system that you that you live in. You don't know it because you're measuring it from from that. From my European friends that want to buy Bitcoin with ease, check out Relay.

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If you want to get started, download the app file in my link below or in the description and use code Brum, that's BR AM at checkout to get 10% of your fees. A huge shout out to relay for sponsoring the show. Now let's continue. I I think you are the perfect person to to unpack further again. Why this is so big right? Because our our whole entire lives is the creation of a paradigm in in this right. Like I have my entire life to thank for Fiat money until I got

to Bitcoin right. I mean like that is in in the country that I grew up in it just it just worked, right. So I don't have any real urge to to figure out that the money is broken on that or that there are all these perverse incentives at the top right from my position right and. And and then we have to realize that because you were closer to the top of the monopoly than somebody in in the Democratic Republic of Congo, somewhere else. You don't realize that you extracted from them and you.

I knew but yes but. Again and so so what's happening today is is there there's an honest protocol that says thou that shall not cheat. Yes. And every single person in on the planet can move to their energy to that protocol. The debt down is not cheat. And as they understand what their life looks like as they move more time and energy onto that protocol, that protocol expands. That is the network expansion. It's it's also the layers that are being built on top to

provide the risk. And and the vast majority of the world has no idea that they can move their time and energy over

to this. So they're stuck in this operating framework that you describe many bitcoiners stuck in that operating for and they're just measuring this asset through the piece of paper and getting and getting scared out when price and they they, they liquidate out when it falls because they're scared it's going to happen over and over and over again as we change and realize that the world is created from the sum of our actions. It doesn't, it doesn't happen to us.

We have a say. And when you have agency NSA and you see a whole bunch of other people adding their agency and NSA to be able to create that you're not scared of any of this nonsense anymore. Yeah, but there will be chain spots. You you might you might be on the wrong side of that chain split. Yeah, many people will be right because there would be they would be scared of the of that and they were it just like be cash Lobo to zero. Yeah, it will be. Yes. So I, This is why I, I, I love

this, but there's this. I think what is difficult is to connect the, the, the technical parts and the, the, the profound implication of having a open source protocol that conceptually no one can kill, right? The protocol for perfect money is out there and it can live on forever, even in the a dark corner of the Internet with 10 people, right? And, and, and that is fact. And I think what you are saying is okay, what you need to do.

I think that the, the jump or the translation is to okay, if, if you can understand what the implications are of this profound conceptual, technical thing, you should act on it, right? I, I sometimes tweet. It's like we're memeing it into existence.

That's what we're doing, right? We're, we're manifesting it together, literally because we are putting our, our energy and, you know, attention actions toward it, etcetera. But there's this, it's a dual understanding of of you need to understand to a certain degree what the technological discovery is, but also what the moral implications are when you

proliferate it into the world. Because if you can kind of visualize that destination, it gives you energy and motivation and an incentive to to do certain things today. Does that make sense? It's kind of how I, I would give that back to you. Yeah. Yeah. Well, then the knots and core I, I have not well, from time to time I've been in this discussion, but I think to an extent on, on what we're talking about right now. I think it's actually very good

bridge to to touch upon that. I, I had a lot of people on X talking about this. You know, the question is more about how true this lens that you're describing. Can you view this, you know, the actions of of core V30, you know, increasing upper turn limit etcetera. There's a counterforce knots, you know, BIP 110 people talk about, you know, this Epstein thing he funded through the MIT Media Lab, people working on it, etcetera.

So you know, stuff is happening. People have different opinions of what they should do. They have different motivations. I think it's very hard to really understand personal motivations of from my point of view as I'm following this with interest, but how do you think? Just through. This, there's different ideologies on one side and, and like moral implications and there is like different technical implications. So I, I think that's a good bridge to, to what we're talking about.

OK, I'm going to start. And because these are so charged conversations, I'm going to, I'm going to start at a higher level and I'll break it down to, to, to, to this conversation because this is going to happen time and time again, right? And they're all going to be I agree, I agree. And they're all going to be charged. Yeah. And and they're going to be charged because to people have a different belief in their own way of action of what Bitcoin is, right.

So let me start with with if you understand game theory and iterative game prisoners dilemma, iterative game theory and you understand the best rational choice or what you can make in that game. And then and then and all game theory is, is really how we act, right? What is what is the best interests of us and what, how do

we act under different scenarios? So if you add payoff matrices to, to game theory and one payoff matrix, you won't get caught. And then another one. I'm going to keep on increasing the reward. I'm going to start at $10 hundred dollars, $1000 million dollars, 10 billion dollars, $100 billion. I'm going to keep going higher and higher and higher. What you find is, is I've seen as low as as 2 1/2% of people will not take the money.

But but that, by the way, what I just described shows why money's always been broken because 97 1/2% of people will say I won't. I won't, I won't. And by the way, if you watch Mr. Beast or if you watch, if you watch Survivor, if you these shows are built on that and why they're so compelling is because we're watching and asking ourselves, could we? Right. And, and what you see is the 97 1/2% of people always take money.

And you and and and and you. See over and over and over again and then the 2 1/2% and then we and then you you celebrate. Wow, that person was so great but they walked away with 0 and you forget about them right Sidestep. Do you know the? Percentage of people that are INTJ, yeah, I know it's around the same. Let's do it after. Yeah, I. Know. So, so, so which which might be a different version of what we're talking about, but what, but what the 2 1/2% of people and that this has been

consistent throughout history. I think the because that's how we're wired. What they're, what they're saying is, is I couldn't live with myself if I did that right. And what most people are saying is I need to do this before somebody else does it to me for my family. They're not bad people. They're not everything. Else so if that's been the entire history and by the way, you could actually probably tie this into you might be able to

tie this into religions. You might be able to tie in everything else because or, or any significant leader that was killed. What would it look like if you were the lone wolf that was that was so dangerous to the system? To and then. What would it look like to those people as we celebrated in them? The thing we couldn't hold in ourselves, right? What? Would the observer. Effect from the person who was

standing standing out there. It would be really dangerous for a control system because they were above it, but they would be that there. It would be lonely and they would most likely be killed over time from the control system. So what Bitcoin gives us is through the consensus mechanism and what this is those 2 1/2% of people typically aggregate. They run nodes, Cypher punks, they run and, and in anonymity,

right. And and so you don't have to poke your head up and everything else, but as there's thousands of these people. That is the backbone that. Protects Bitcoin and and now it gives the 97 1/2% of people who aren't just bad people, some probably 2 1/2 percent on the other might be for the 97 1/2 Purdue. They just don't have the just given a choice if somebody's going to cheat them or they're going to get cheated. They'll cheat somebody before they get cheated, but now they

can. Cooperate in an. Honest chain and so it. Moves the entire. World in the direction of what we're talking about and more and more people can see themselves in it. OK. So now with with, with just with that as a frame. So my expectation and and 0 sum versus. What I got from you, the cooperative competitive? Yeah, exactly. An infinite game 0 sum. Game to an infinite game.

Yeah, OK. And, and once you see yourself in the infinite game, if you truly see yourself in the infinite game, then you, you and you know yourself, you know you're never going to go to the 0 sum game. But each person has to ask that for themselves. And, and what my expectation is is 97 1/2% of people that I know today. So people think I'm an optimist, right? Or or utopian.

I'm just looking at the. Data and, and all of these things and, and I know how big the challenge is, but I also know that if there's 2 1/2% of people that'll do this, that's a huge number of people that aren't going back and that'll swing in favor more and more people. So now that's kind of the highest level. So my expectation is most people will cheat my expectation. Is when they say. Don't slay your heroes or go spear slay your heroes is because most people will cheat

right? That's the meme. That's the meme. Saying what I just said. So now underneath, underneath that, if you had one. Instance. Core and you had a world that looked like that. You could expect that that group of people to be whether they knew they were being Co opted or they're whether they're being Co opted, you could expect overtime. And I'm not saying they were or weren't right. I'm saying you're he would have to have an expectation if the entire political establishment

looks like this and. And and and. And through money and power and everything else, and you had a group of people with power, a narrow group of people with power. And that that narrow group of people was a risk to this entire power structure. You would have to expect that those people would be, would be attacked. And when I say attacked, I wouldn't, you wouldn't. Do it in a way. That they would know they were being attacked. You would do it in a friendly way.

You would do it in these things are needed and everything else. And so, but the consensus mechanism and, and I'm sorry, I'm going in kind of layers because it's such a deep topic and, but, but so the consensus mechanism and what it means to me is I get to see everything we've. Always lived in a world. Where we lived in the small box, the. The crazies were either.

Killed or or made to look crazy and we couldn't see their ideas even if they were genius because we lived in the small box and the consensus mechanism breaks that box wide open that we all get to the see see the entire thing we get to see the the the person who could be a genius over here right and and 99% of the time they're genius and 1% of the time they do something that does massive harm and we. Can see the person over here that. Is exactly the same the same,

right? And we get to decide what Bitcoin means for us. And so given all. Of this and what I would expect the world to look like when and and and I want to say I really like a bunch of people in in in core. I like Jerry Akimo I I I like a bunch of the people on on Odell. Many of the people and as I say these names, I know I'm going to get attacked right from the

other side. And then I love other people mechanic Luke, because I'm looking at the idea, not the person constantly I and and the debate. And as people fight more and more, I want to dig in more. And at any time there's an ad hominem attack. I I think that's my clue to look deeper because most people can't look deeper, right, because they're so caught up in their in Group bias out group bias. I'm better. That person's bad that they can't see the genius on both

sides. And so so how do I do this? I run knots today. I run knots because because I thought what core did on on on version 30 was dangerous. And when I looked at the, when I, when I looked at that and, and, and it was and I, and, and I suspect that as, as you're a group of people and people are attacking you and saying this is dangerous, then it's easier to create an echo Chamber of other people that are your friends and everything else to stop

listening. I'm not saying it would be a really hard job to, to do this because you're constantly under attack, but you have and, and the human condition is you want to talk to people who like you instead of people that, who don't like you. And so that would create this, this essentially narrow group think that expelled people like Luke. And when I look at some of the stuff that Luke Dasher has done, he's brilliant, right when I look at some of the stuff that he's done.

And so I made a decision for myself to run knots. Now the risk of. Knots is is there enough maintainers? Does it, does it grow? Does it and and then what if there's just a new a new version of a of a risk that that? Then. That then consolidated power and under under a control. So that is very real risk that you have to understand as well. But knowing all of these things, I made a choice to to run knots.

I have not made a choice yet to run pip 1-10, but I understand the the both sides of the issue and I part of the reason I haven't made a choice yet and everybody wants me to is I understand the risks to that choice too. And when I do and, and I don't want me people to do things because I did them. I want them to do them because they've done the work themselves to decide what what that looks like. But when I when I when I look at all of these people and the fights on either side, then I

get a it actually helps me get. Smarter on these On these. Issues. So I'm thankful for all of them. Yeah, I think a. Few thoughts here. This there's a few things I always say, you know, the fact that that people were paying attention to, you know, people like Epstein and surroundings in in in 2011 to Bitcoin, right?

Or just in in general. You know, Gavin Andreessen went to this CIA presentation that he later wrote about on the forums where he said, like, they all thought I was a weird guy or, or whatever, right? Like the, the fact that people in that in those realms were already paying attention to Bitcoin for me is actually a very positive thing, right? I mean, how, how many random ideas are released on the Internet every day, let alone on obscure cyberpunk Internet

forums, right? Why would you even pay attention to that? And it's still alive and growing today, right? So for me that is, that is a, a, a signal that this is something special and, and something big, something that that takes a long time and that everyone, like you said, will look at the profoundness importance of it in, in their own way. And they will fight or, or contribute to that in again, in their, in their own way.

But the beauty in the technical sense is that, well, I would say, well, there's a beauty and there's a, a, a, a challenge because it is so absolutely transparent, right? You can verify everything for yourself. And therefore I would say you should to make a. Decision as to how. You adopt Bitcoin and goes back, I think to the beginning of this conversation as as as well, right? The the fun or interesting thing is that with Fiat money, you never had a clue, right?

You just, you just, you know, used the card and it beeped and you got something from a store and you were like, yeah, whatever this is, apparently This is Money, right? And when you were younger, it was with coins and bills. And so you never questioned it, although it makes you a subject in, in a, in a system, right, Not, not an actor. So your ignorance is basically used to abuse you steal your time and energy and all these things.

But again, because Bitcoin is this mirror and it is the total transparent opposite, all this agency is put on you. I, I would say, right. So you have to do the work. And therefore, I think we also see all these struggles because different kinds of people with different kinds of no morals or, or understanding or IQ whatever, it doesn't really matter. They all get confronted with that forced transparency and this, this fighting this, this tension basically.

And and think about some of the things. That that a bunch of developers might or might not know because they're good at code, they and, but they might not. They might be making the same intuitive mistake by measuring a Fiat system into a Bitcoin system that most people make right. A free market operates different. So, so so when I watched the debate on on some of the stuff that the why, why they why some of this stuff happened to protect miners fees.

I'm going this is insane, right? The the mining mining doesn't need fees the the block. Reward if. Measured in Bitcoin right, it's a isn't is enough to 2140 and and what you're saying is is right right now the through lightning pediment and other stuff. It's removing that capacity to be able to to so you have an anchor at the bottom it and why I say this is if you tried to drive fees and and mining, if you were a bad actor trying to drive fees, Andre Standard. So what would you be doing?

You'd be locking in a high cost data center around high cost energy and you'd get wiped out faster by the free market. Yeah. Because because the. The mining always is always driving to to to the new equipment, new compute and the lowest cost energy. So if you're if you're trying to extend your life on fees to try to extend your life on a data center, you're driving yourself off a Cliff faster because you're not driving at the free market to the edge of edge of energy.

And so that's what you're seeing right now. And you're seeing this like I'm on the board, of course, scientific and Bitcoin mining it and they have some of the lowest cost energy in the US. Bitcoin mining doesn't work anymore, right, because because now at the hash rate, it's unprofitable. And so so when when, when I watched the debate around what we should do to protect miners or the. Centralization of miners. And that's going to be a problem.

It's because they don't understand how markets work, and the centralization of market mining cannot happen in this industry. Because it operates on the. Free market principle. It's interesting that. The The thing that Bitcoin philosophically promises to accelerate their fuel, right? This free market is also the thing that is happening in the journey to to getting there, right? Like like bit the proof of work.

I wonder what you think I want to check like proof of work is true on every fractal of bit, right? Like from the technical to the philosophical to to the, the, the whole personal, the spiritual parts, whatever, right? And so I think the interesting thing is that if you want to participate in this free market of this idea in general, whether philosophically or you know, I'm doing a cost, other people, mine, whatever. Yeah, you got you got to. Do it right like.

It's it's walk your talk, basically. So if you want to do a change split because you don't agree with XYZ, you should do it because you can and you should. And you're going to figure out if enough people care and if not, they're not. And if they do they, they do right? And I, I, I really like that we went here because this is the essence now. This is the essence. Like if you want to do it, you should like you. It's not only talk, you have to do it. It's what is Bitcoin to you?

Right. And why I aligned with with knots is Bitcoin is a protocol to me and it's, and it's coming in layers and it's money and everything else and it's not a database. And so I so I line more with that side. Now I understand why other people would want this. I understand why in entire construct of the way the world works today would want the existing things to be to be be different and Bitcoin is always resolved against us. Now, whether this works for right now on Bitcoin 10 or or not.

And I don't want to change, but, right. And so, so, but, but, but at some point I'm going to be

called to which one which, what Bitcoin, what is Bitcoin for me, right? And I'm going to, and, and whether that's now whether when it, when it gets centralized more and centralized exchanges and comes after Bitcoin. But at some point these things are going to happen and we're all going to be called on to make the decision on what that, what that looks like to us, right?

And there's probably and, and because I think because this is such a complicated conversation and because of the transition and because we're measure and most people are measuring from the other system still, it's going to it's going to elicit these crazy responses and fighting for what people believe on both sides. Yeah. And I I I almost want to say. As as we should, if we think about how That's the beauty of about the consent. Important. We have to see it all.

Yeah, we have to see it all. And it should be that important to you. Yeah, yeah, yeah. But it it is. Not changing the technology of money is not an easy in the world, right? Is not an easy feat and also not a quick journey. And, and I think this is the, you know, I, I like to talk a lot about the, the, the, the personal journey, spiritual part of this. I think this is where you eventually want to get that that you are. It is why some people say Bitcoin is like.

A religion, right? But you give your, you, you give your attention and your energy to this thing in the in the future, which maybe will only happen after you die, right? Like and then take a very long time and and then and that's why. You just said before we started, you still get triggered sometimes of everything else. I just realized that this is a personal journey from every single person going through this, all of the people going through it. If this was going to continue,

it has to look like this. And all of this misinformation has to look like this. And all of the different versions of what reality look like have to look like this. And I don't begrudge somebody from their what their version is. I can, I can completely. I can respect somebody immensely that has a different idea for for what this is and a different, different version. And I can still learn from them, even if I might not agree with them on this, on a on, on what it is to me.

Yeah. Well, I'm happy you got that insight too. This is also what I think it's, it's a 1 by 1 conversion, right? It, it is, dude. Are you making the choice? And it's on on on every level, Yeah. Of taking on that absolute agency. That's why I think it it is. It is, you know, some people don't like it.

I think what I say, but it's partially, partially enlightening to, you know, to to a degree where you really say like, OK, I'm really going to take control or attempt to take control with this technology that is given to us. And there's a lot of scary stuff that comes with taking control,

right? Taking on that agency versus in, in a Fiat money world, just outsourcing almost everything to other people no better than you and, and, and on a different level of their own, you know, spiritual or personal journey in, in their lives, right. And so I think it is just again, this, this fractal idea of the proof of work is just so

interesting. Like if you say yes on one level, you basically have to go to all these other levels and also say yes, but they might take different times before you personally get there, right? That's what, That's what's. Happening and it's a this is imposing this across the world and it's our choice whether to I understand and and when and how and what it looks like and you you watch I watch people even even with my body of work right that have seen it 100.

Times. And still not yet or or or fight against me and say like the worst things about me, right? How stupid I am everything else. And then and then one one day click and they get it right and it was. Never about me. It was something, it was something it was, it wasn't. It was how they viewed the world. And this thing was too hard to be able to grab on to. And it was about them. And it wasn't about it wasn't about me when they yelled at me. It wasn't about me when they loved me.

It was about them. And as and so watching people make this, this journey into this thing and, and, and the number of people that have why I'm so, so excited and just grateful to be here right in this time in the world. Is it when, when, when I know the thousands of people on the front lines of this who were fighting for a better few and and they're not even fighting for a better future. They're they're building a better future.

They're in in they're literally their energy is inside this thing and and more and more all the time. It's so crazy hopeful that the little fights and everything else that you should expect along the way, if this is going to to to work, they just they just they're nothing burgers to me. Yeah, I think the word. Would be striving. We're striving towards something, right? All right, We're actually, we're

actually building. It right, Yeah, it's not it's not happening to us. We're Co creating it, yeah. I agree, and that's also what I really. Like is like what is Bitcoin to you? What you said, right, like whatever Bitcoin is to you. If, if, if there is a certain calling in there where you think like I want to contribute, you can basically do anything, right? It doesn't really, it doesn't really matter what all right, too.

I, I know we have to wrap up. I, I still had a lot of questions from everyone on X, but I think this was the, the, the, the right conversation at the right time for this, because I feel that a lot of people miss the bigger picture within all the noise, basically, right? But, and you can extract yourself from the noise. I mean, I know that that you did that, but I also think there's still a lot of people that need to. Hear.

What this bigger picture is and what it asks from them as well, that that it's not an easy feat, that it's going to take a lot of time, that it is the proof of work. Can I just the? And and potentially the same thing that happened in core and the potentially thing that happens in all human beings in all societies and why we we gravitate through these small groups and everything else in Group out group bias you would likely. Never belong to the. To the group that you thought

was inferior, right? Yeah, so, so, so when you when you're in Group, you think you, you automatically assume that group is better. You you might not come across that away, but that's your natural thing to to and and it and you're easily exploited and to those other people, right. When I see when I see the things when the derangement on both sides of the this and some of it's the right and people fighting for when they can do it whatever where they want.

But but that that's what I see is that in Group out group bias and people and and people missing the signal. The people missing the signal that they can learn. They can learn from their enemy. They can learn from somebody in a different group. They can, they can say, they can still just rationally make decisions and say, even if I didn't agree with somebody, 99% of the time I might have, there might be a nugget here to to really look.

And it just why we wanted to end on that is it's just who we are as humans, right? And so if everyone else you see falling into the same trap, how do you know that you're not a falling into the same trap? I think that's a great. That's. A great ender. So yeah, thanks so much. I hope people appreciate this and and find it valuable. I I know I did. So thanks for your time and your insights, and we'll stay in touch. Thanks, Bram. All right. Cheers. I hope you. Enjoyed this episode?

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