So I got woken up about one thirty or two somewhere in that time, and I started hearing the woops again. But it was close, and it was it was loud, and it was moving. That is nuts. It was like woop woop was going from right to left, from the creek to the road and up the ridge up there. Would you say about one hundred and fifty yards curtain, Yeah, I would say is over fifteen twenty seconds. This thing was moving from where the creek was where we would
get water. It was like whoop poop, prooper. And then it started moving right. I thought it was going right through those guys camp. All of a sudden, I hear this is garbling that all I can describe it? Right, raw, raw, Are you know if they sounds like er sounds that is not wooping? And then they kept going. It's kept moving and then it got back to woof woop woop, and and then it just went on up the ridge and I was waking up. Curs, did you hear that? You know what the heck was that?
I'd like to welcome Curtis and David to the show. I was introduced to these gentlemen via Jonathan Brown of the famous Brown Property in Washington. He spoke highly of them and suggested I should get in contact with them and have them on and boy, am I glad I did, because Curtis, you know, this is the first time I've talked to David, but you and I talked previously on the phone, and you guys have had some amazing experiences in what seems to be a relatively short amount of
time for the big Foot world. Got you started personally interested in this topic.
Well, maybe just a quick little background. David and I have been friends for over fifty years. I'm two years older than David, but you know, we grew up together. We went to the same college, and it turns out we both went to the same medical school. Believe it or not, we're both physicians, so we like to think of ourselves obviously as men of science. But after medical school we sort of drifted apart. He ended up in
Central California and I ended up in Phoenix, Arizona. Obviously, still friends, kind of friends that even though we might not see each other for a year or so, when we do get back together, it's like, you know, no time had been had we been apart. Now I really didn't have much of a background or thinking about bigfoots. All that game that start and tell you about his background.
If that's okay, Yeah, sure they have a jump on in Man, what got you started in this crazy subject?
Well, yeah, we occurious. We were best friends growing up. But as a kid, I was always interested in Native American you know history culture that studied it a lot. I was always the Indian when you played Cowboys and Indians. Used to make my own moccasins and the you know, hiking the woods and stuff. But I knew that every you know Native American culture you know, had some type of name for bigfoots, squatch, you know, hairy men, you know,
things like that. I knew they had, you know, spiritual animals just like you know, bear, the coyotes and eagles and stuff. Getting older, I had seen the Patterson Gimbland film. I you know, I felt that was real. It seemed people try to debunk that as they got older and had kids. My own nephews, you know, my son Cody and Josh. I took them to Burnside Lake which is South Lake Tahoe area, and we actually heard some howls there. I took interest in tracking and you know, things like
that in the in the woods and stuff. Read a lot of Tom Brown Junior's tracking and nature observation books, and that got me interested in me at you know, the outdoors and things like that. Yeah, very good, very good things I learned from that. So try to pass that on sometimes my kids and you know, Curtis and
things like that when we're out. But I think all that made me, you know, at that point, uh, you know, a probable believer, you know, watch the shows, you know, find you know, finding you know, Bigfoot and now Expedition big Foot, things like that. So that's kind of where I got it.
And then mine mine wasn't as deeply seated as David. I I'd seen the Patterson give One film, but I was more of a skeptic, you know then you know, whatever you might we might think of finding Bigfoot, it's something that I watched, and I think the best thing about finding Bigfoot clearly they never have found Bigfoot in all their seasons, but it at least sort of brought it to the consciousness of prime time, you know, exposed interest to more people. And then on that was kind
of my background. But on David's fiftieth birthday, he had to get together a weekend at his house and one night he said to me, hey, find a movie. I'm gonna go grab a shower, look on my DVR and see what you find, and when I get out of the shower, we'll watch a movie. Well I kind of looked through his DVR and he had a whole big section on all those things he just talked about, and so I realized, you know, where his interest was. And I had a little interest, but not the same as
his by any means. And then three years ago, almost exactly to today, my wife and I was some friends went to Nepal and we were hiking over to Avers base camp and our guide just happened to be a Buddhist monk, and about a third of the way to has base camp, he took us into a temple and showed us a hand and a skull of what he described as being a yetti goal on hand.
Wow.
And we couldn't touch them. They were behind glass, but I was looking at it from six inches away. And I'm an orthopedic surgeon. I know all about can anatomy and that that hand looked like a human hand, but it was probably twice as big, and the skull was probably about the size of a human skull if you added a football helmet to it, and the scalp part of the scalp was still there, and it was covered
in really short brown hair. So you know, I really didn't have much interest in Bigfoot before seeing finding Bigfoot. And then I happened to see the doll in the hand of a supposed yetty. And so David and I had been the kind of friends, like we said, we've got to get together periodically on a guy's trip where we might go golfing or go see a sporting event. And after this he called me up and said, hey, let's go on another guy's trip.
And so I had said, well, why don't we go see if.
We can find Bigfoot? And that's kind of where we got started this.
So how'd you guys pick your first spot to go to?
Yeah, curse said, hey, see what you think of us. We felt like, you know, with California, it would be a good place to start, you know, close. So I began doing some research and stuff. I went to the VFRO website, looked up all the counties in California and how many different sidings they had and stuff, and you know, just with you know, Bluff Creek and all that with the Persians can win the history up there. Siske County had to me had the most sightings that I could find.
So I said, hey, let's go up to you know, northwestern California. So after that I started looking on you know, backpacking and trails things like that, trying to find, you know, an interesting place to go. I mean, we were just in go backpacking with guys, you know, quote big fitting, but it was more to spend time with Curtis, you know. But I found this interesting trail called the Kelsey Trail was on the Smith River, which is about twenty six miles east of Christen City, and we had to go
on this It looked like pretty desolate area. We had to go on the dirt road for like six miles and then the hike in was about six miles to where you know, I felt like we could camp and things like that. So we went into the trail head there, heading into the Siski willerness.
And I think, like David said, we kind of went into this calling it a big foot trip that we predomin we were expecting just a camping trip or a backpacking trip with friends. And I would say maybe the first three days we were there.
I think we were there six days and five nights. The first three days, you know, maybe we found some exes off in the distance and maybe a tree break here and there, but nothing we could really you know, honestly say, was anything other than just a natural occurrence.
And you know, about the third or fourth day, I think David was looking at his maps again and he noticed that one of the trails, and we've been up and down the creek both north and south, looking all around every single day and evening, hadn't really found much. And he noticed that on the map there was another trail sort of across this creek, and so he suggested we, you know, take one of the days and go across there. And that's where we started finding some things. Yeah, there was.
Only one trail you know, in there and out. And so when we got in there, we found a great, a great campsite right on a peninsula by a creek, and you know, nice water and things like that in shape. But so we set up our game cams around the entrance, you know, and on that trail, so we knew what was going in and out and if anyone was around there and things like that. So in the whole time that we were there, we only saw we met one guy.
He came in and he went out the next day, so we knew that there was no one else around with us. But so we started going up crossing the creek over and going up that trails. It was more into the wilderness area, you know, where the direction that
it was heading. So we started seeing some like you know, suspicious things on you know, branches is like twelve feet high being broken off in ninety degrees and we had pictures of that curtis trying to reach it and things like that, and you know, other branches around, other trees being broken like, you know, maybe seven eight feet tall. One tree we found it was a big tree and it's it's hanging up in the air and it's had these other two vine trees wrapped around it holding it.
But there's no stump, you know, and how the heck did that get there? You know, And we're looking around for the stump. We can't find it. We don't know where it fell from, but it's just hanging like you know, pointing up the hill and there was a game trail right beside it, and so it's just kind of interesting, you know for that.
Like, yeah, interesting to see a tree hanging in the air.
Wrapped it was like wrapped in you know, these these other these you know, things are weaved around and holding it up and it's like, that's weird.
And tie four or five feet off the ground, which is really crazy.
And it was pointing up the hill.
You said, Yeah, the top of the tree was pointing up toward up the hill and the bottom was you know, hanging like four or five feet up the ground with these branches wrapped around holding it up. And I had no idea how it could be twisted like that, you know, like if you were going to hold it up and pull these branches and wrap the branches around each other to hold up this tree. It was. It's strange, and
we had a picture of it. It's kind of I don't know how that happens, especially where the tree comes from down the hill or up till there's no there was no stump that it came from.
And then we started finding other weird things. We noticed on a couple of different trees that there were you know, four or five foot long branches that were sort of stacked up against the tree, leaning on the trees of something had clearly placed these branches there, and they were essentially pointing in the same direction as the tree stump or not the tree stumped the tree that was elevated, and these branches you look at them, they didn't come
from the tree. They were completely different types of trees. One of them was even you know, solid red, it was like from a mandanita bush or on things. So whatever had placed them there had brought them there and kind of stood them up against the tree. And I don't know if you've seen Expedition Bigfoot, but this season they were in northern California, my guess is probably within fifty miles where we were, and they had a similar finding.
There's was probably more dramatic, at least on their videos that they've shown on Expedition big but they had you know, fifteen or twenty foot sticks kind of leaning up against a tree. So it was just, you know, just that show was sort of confirmation of what we found. Was just unusual to be off the trail in the wilderness in a place where no one seemed to be. Obviously we had been there so other people could have gotten there. But that wasn't even the strangest sort of tree finding
that we found. We kind of are now on this side of the trail looking for things. Our interest is peaked. We found an elevated tree, We found other branches all pointing in the same direction, and we eventually found what I described as an igloo, and I don't know how
to describe it any differently. It was a domed dwelling, probably about the size of a two or three person backpacking tent, about three feet in height, maybe six feet across or eight feet across, and maybe eight feet long, and there was you know, opening at one end, and so there was Yeah, the branches were all weak together, so this was not you know, just branches being laid out. They were weaved together to make a sturdy, domed structure. And then so we figured, well, could this be human?
I mean, probably most likely it was. We started looking for other signs of humans being there. Thing I noticed I don't even know if I said it to David at the time, but inside the structure, you know, most people when they put down a tent will kind of move all the sticks out and rocks and put their tent down. Nothing had been cleaned out, but it was all compressed down. So whatever slept there slept right on whatever was inside the dome. And then the next next
thing we look for a fire pit. You know, you're out in the middle of nowhere, and even in the summer, it was probably in the mid forties at night, and most people are going to have a fire, if not for warmth, just for you know, something to look at in the middle of the night. There was no fire pit. And then we started looking for a while, maybe there's trash or something, because you know, humans seven, if you're trying to be clean, you're going to leave some scraps
of paper or wrappers or something. And there was nothing. Yeah, yeah, literally, So then we started looking around it. Like David said, we found five or six piles of scat that were just huge and it looked like human scat, but bigger than anything I've ever done in my life. And we started thinking, well, what what could do this? Like I said, we kind of beforehand on our drive up, we wanted to look at.
Everything from a scientific side.
Our viewpoint, and if we could rule it out as being you know, some other cause, we would, but you know, It didn't look like bear scout. It didn't look like deer or else scat. There's nothing else that big that we know of in the area. It looked like human scat,
but probably three times the amount. And then the other crazy thing is, you know, in our camp, we went maybe one hundred and fifty feet away through our business and we buried it so we wouldn't step on it the next day or smell it or anything like that. These were all sitting on top of the ground. There was no toilet paper, There was no evidence of any like moss or leaves that anything had used to clean themselves.
Whatever had done it had just squatted five or six times around its dwelling and did.
Its business well.
Really strange. No sign of other, you know, humans had been there. But we find this dwelling if you would, and scat all around.
Were there any signs of like tools being used to like cut the limbs or anything.
No, they all looked broken, you know, we did look at that. I didn't mention that none of them had been cut with an axe or a saw. They had all been snapped or fallen.
You know.
They maybe they were deadfall that had been dragged into the area. I don't know, but they had all been broken some way and had no cut ends on them.
I mean, that's just so weird. You know, if it was a human, that's a pretty long term structure for a primitive shelter for someone to make. You would think there would definitely be signs of a fire and you know, the limbs being cut to create the shelter. That that just seems so weird that anybody would go back there and do it by hand and not build a fire and not clear it out, and then to just defecate all around it. I mean, that doesn't sound human at all to me.
Oh, I mean, that's exactly what we thought. So, you know, we we thought with those findings we kind of hit the jackpot and that would be as good as anything we found the rest of the week. But I was wrong.
Wrong. Yeah. So the next thing that I think we found, we'd gone back if you know, after that trail, if you know, if you at about two miles and stuff, but in the same area we had found a lot of the trees and stuff like that.
Yeah.
I'm always looking for track traps and trying to find, you know, places they can see traps and things like that, and I hadn't noticed it on a day or two before. But about thirty yards off the trail, we're walking and I see this kind of wet area, and I say, hey, Kurt, there's a track trap. Let's just go over there and look and see what we can see. And you know, like we think we're going to expect to see like deer tracks or you know whatever. Even if there's barren
area thing like that, you could do that. But so we were walking off there and it's thirty yards off the trail behind brush and stuff. I could just see through the brush and see, you know, wettiness over there. I just want to go look at it. So we go walking over there and there's this probably a marsh.
You know.
The marsh is about I don't know, curius, what do you say, fifteen to twenty feet cross, and you know, maybe a double of length, you know, winde But there's nothing was water in it, mud and things like that, but it was nothing I would want to walk through.
And it was probably about, you know, the size of a homeless swimming pool in the area. At least, you know, it wasn't wasn't huge, It wasn't a big lake. It was just a little marshy area and probably at its depth it was four inches deep, maybe six inches at that mouth.
But you didn't have to walk through it to go past it. You we walked around it, you know, just to go ten feet dis direction and you walk around it on dry land and you go around the other side. So it's like, if you're a human, you why would you walk through there and get your bots all dirty? But so we go there and all a sudden go hey, courtainly do that and there's there was three three footprints walking right through the middle of the marsh, and I go, wow,
this is this is crazy. So we go over there and we got the pictures comparing our foot size to the thing, and Curtis and we both were thirteen's and you know the picture, you know, it's about twice as wide as in this foot and about three or four inches longer than a shoe, so it figures probably measuring about you know, I think, you know, thirteen shoes about thirteen inches thirteen, you know, so carib measure about fifteen inches long and about twice as wide it is shoe.
And there was like three steps. You could see it in the water. You could just see the imprint in the water, and the first one, the second one was about a foot or two past it, like the left foot first and then the right foot. But then the third step was like over four feet. The next step was four feet further out, and then there was about another four feet to get out of the swamp from
that side, and there was no step on there. So we figured that the guy whatever made it, you know, made the first step, second step, the third step and four step out you know, onto the dry area. And so it was about yeah, four to five feet you know step length you know, on there with it. And again so we're saying, hey, this is this is by people. This is not like, I mean, for a bear to step on itself and make it, you know, like a
look like a footprint, things like that. You have to do it three times in a row and do that. And we say, well, what is this? How do you make that? And see, well, people could run and jump and make that type of step length or strike you know, stride length. You can do that. But if you're running and you jump and step in mud, you're gonna slide. Yeah, yeah, you know, there there was no sliding. There was no
nothing of that, you know, around these things. It was just a walking step into the wet, you know, with a stride so something by Peter walked across that with a sixteen inch foot with a probably six inches wide and a stride a step length of about you know, forty eight to fifty inches long, and so were the crazy thing about that was that so we were like, wow, this is amazing. So we were getting kind of excited about that, and we go back when we came back the next day to look at it and inspect it
some more. And the interesting thing was that the middle that the third step had disappeared. It had been reabsorbed you know, by the marsh, and we took a picture and we took a picture of that. So that was kind of like, okay, this is going to disappear in twenty four hours. Yeah, then that has to be recent. That has to be you know, within twenty four hours that that was made.
You know, for us, I saw a photo I believe, of that trackway that you're talking about, and it's definitely bipedal. I mean, anything with four legs leaves a very definite trail, especially through a spot like that, and the telltale signs of a four legged animal going through. There were just not there, not there at all.
And it looked like right left, right left, you know exactly what you're saying, by pedal. It it did look by pedal. So, you know, we see that, go back to camp, decide that's where we're gonna kind of concentrate our efforts. We had a couple of days left. Next day we decided to go out there kind of close to the Marshy area and just kind of sit and
listen to, you know, what was happening around. And David had these sound amplification headphones and he was probably seventy five yards away from me, up against a log, just sitting there. And I was sort of off the trail it sort of sitting.
Under a bush, and I could see him, he could see me.
We could probably see, I don't know, two hundred and forty degrees each of us around. And we sat there for about an hour. And with these headphones, we could literally I could whisper and he could hear me and buy some versus so we could converse without making too much noise, and we could hear things off in the distance kind of moving around. But we had no idea We couldn't tell us bipedal by what we could hear,
but things were definitely moving around us. And finally, after about an hour, I noticed that they're you know, close to him. There was this what looked like a broken tree just across from the marsh, and I had never noticed it before, but just sitting there for an hour, I finally was staring at this thing. And it was under the canopy of a redwood tree, and you know, the canopy of a redwood tree. He's probably you know, fifty feet at least across, and not much grows underneath.
It cannot be of a redwood tree because of the you know, there's no light number one, number two, all the pine needles. Kind of never tried to grow grass underneath a pine tree. It just just doesn't happen, you know. So it caught my caught my attention being in a weird spot. Maybe it was a tree that had just been broken off by something. But when we decided we were done listening, I kind of walked up to this thing and David's looking at me, like, what are you doing?
And I just started looking at it. And it didn't widen out at the base like a tree kind of wood, and I started moving it and there was a little micro emotion, and pretty soon I had the thing loose and I pulled it out and it was not a stump. It was clearly broken both ends and had been jammed in the ground about six in and it was sticking up about three foot out of the ground. So you know, something had taken this three and a half foot long stick and jammed in the ground. And it was literally
right across from the marsh. And you know, part of what caught my attention not only you know, what would something grow under the canopy of a redwood tree, but I had seen on YouTube other people describing sticks being stuck in the ground, or trees even being upturned and upside down and jammed into the ground, and you know, obviously maybe something could have done it when it was muddy,
but I took that thing out. David has a video of me trying to jam that thing in the ground with the sharp end, and I didn't make it damp, So if it didn't happen when it was muddy, something it took a lot of force to jam that thing six inches into the ground. So it was literally right across from the marsh where whatever had you done those three steps in the marsh and crossed came out onto
the trail. But you know, I know we're kind of making an assumption here, but it was as if it was a marker as to where it to cross the main trail.
Could you tell what kind of tree it was?
It?
So yeah, we looked, Well, no, we could not tell, but we did look around. You know, it clearly was not a redwood. It was not a branch that had fallen out of the redwood tree. Yet it was under the canopy of a redwood tree. So then we're looking around to see if any of the trees around it had a branch that size that had broken, or if there was a stump around or anything like that. Just like David said, we looked for that stump of that elevated tree. We could not find the source of that tree.
So this, you know, I guess you'd call it a log more than anything. It was probably four inches in diameter and about three and a half feet you know long. My guess is it probably weighed about thirty pounds, not heavy by any means, but we could not find a place where it had come from. So whatever I had put it in the ground, you know, from what we could see, had brought it from somewhere deeper in the forest.
I mean that, you know, as far as I'm aware of, that takes hands. So you're limited down to either humans or bigfoot at that point. And I don't see a human just carrying around a log like that.
Yeah, it was crazy.
Yeah, we our last story of California. It was the last morning. As David said, we had set up our base camp about five or six miles in from the trailhead, and we took all our day trips out of there, come back at night. Well, last morning we were planning on leaving. We both woke up about six am, got out of our tents. About five minutes later. I decided to put on some water to get our coffee going.
And we had sort of set up our backpacking stove underneath the canopy of another redwood that was in our base camp. It was probably thirty feet or so from our tent, and so I started pouring water into a pot, and all of a sudden, the pine cone lasts or lands right near my left foot. Okay, no big deal, I'm under the canopy of a redwood tree. A redwood tree has pine cones. There are hundreds of pine cones
on the ground all around us. Well, about three seconds later, before I even light the fire, another one lands by my right foot. Well, again, didn't take much of it. And David's standing under the canopy maybe eight feet from me, and he's seen all this happen, but you know, still could be natural. Two pine cones fall, but we looked up and you know, there's not a breath of wind in the air whatsoever. So I go to sit down in my little backpacking camp chair about eight feet away,
and the same thing happens. Now I'm sitting down and it's like a perfect myss. One pine cone lands by my right foot and one pine cone lands by my left foot, and you know, I'm looking up into the tree, and David decides to back up into the opening, and he can kind of tell you what he was looking for.
Well, you know, when I first the first one didn't there, didn't even think anything of it. When the last two almost hit him. When he's sitting in a chair, I'm like, what the heck is going And I start looking up at the tree and I couldn't see much, so I started back I backed off about been twenty feet to get out from underneath the canopy. And I'm sitting here looking up in the tree and trying to see it. I'm under open sky and trying to look up as far as I could to see it. I don't see
any squirrel I had seen. I seen a squirrel like fifty feet away in the opposite direction in a tree, but not up in that tree. And all of a sudden, a pine cone lands by my foot, and then then another pine cone lands on my foot, and I'm in the open there's nothing on it, there's nothing above me, and I what the heck? And as soon as that happened, I think both of us it was just I can still see us, both of us realizing that this is
not natural. And we both stood up and turned to our you know, my left is right looking up the ridge above our camp. At the same time, we just both turned up, and immediately it stopped, and I was I started looking at these things and realized that two or three of these pine cones are actually green, And you know, we took a picture of one to sow that it was green, and it was like, how the
heck are green pine cones? Falling out of a tree unless you got some sniper squirrel, you know, that's throwing pine cones at us, you know, you know from there. But yeah, that was about you know, seven or eight pine cones. That seemed the only thing you could say was thrown at us, you know, at six in the morning and you're like like six miles into somewhere. Someone would have if someone's you know, punking us or something. You know, we had trail camps up on the trail.
We didn't see anybody coming in. They would have to hike in at six in the morning, probably leave at two in the morning just to go do that, you know, hike in, throw pine cones and leave. Because we packed up after you know that, and started heading out in the morning, and we didn't run into anyone for about three or four miles until we were almost out.
You know, when those people, those people that we ran into had not been camping. They both had a water bottle and a granola bar. They had just come into the to the trail had about eight in the morning. They said they were just scouting for a camping site for the next weekend, so they didn't you know, they
had not camped there overnight. There's no way that these guys, like I said, unless they had been there two in the morning at the trail ahead, walked in and then walked back out and then walked out towards the wilderness again to see us. Could they have pumped us and I you know, they just didn't have the equipment there.
It was a married couple. I just can't see a married couple getting there at two in the morning and just just happening to find somebody camping and decide to throw pine cones at them when they get up at six in the morning.
Yeah, nobody's doing that. I mean, in an area like that, most of the people there, the vast majority of people there are going to kind of be under the same mindset and they're not going to be messing with people. They're not, you know, they're trying to avoid people. That's why they go there. Uh, the idea to like start throwing pine cones at somebody from the bush, says, I don't. I don't think anybody would do that.
We hadn't heard of that before. And what was interesting was afterward, you know, we started seeing some comments or maybe you just don't even think about It's like when you buy a car, you start seeing that car all over the place. But you know, we had we started hearing people mention that they had had pine cones, you know, throwing that, and that's what happened that anyway, that was that.
Was our California experience over about fighting and here we are, we're rookies. We're going into this not trying, not believing we'll find anything. And we had talked going up. I was more of a skeptic than David. Obviously he had a more you know, seated, deep seated foundation on Bigfoot than I did. I My Bigfoot was learned through finding Bigfoot,
and I was quite skeptical. But you know, after all that happened in our Californi on a trip, I was now at least open to believing that it was possible, if not probable, that there was a big Foot out there.
I mean, those are some amazing experiences, especially for our first time out. I mean, those would have been amazing experiences for your one hundredth time in the field, you know, for a veteran bigfooter.
Well, like we said, we were not expecting anything. You know, we kind of went into the thing. Yeah, we're going to go find Bigfoot, but but we pretty much decided we were just going to be two guys out camping and backpacking and having a good time, and if we found something, it was, you know, icing on the cake.
Did you guys get anything on your trail cams while you were there?
The only thing we got was us. And the guy was the guy that we ran into him one day that we were He was coming in and just coming in overnight, and and then he walked out the same we saw him going in, we saw him going out. We talked to him both times, so we knew when he was there, we knew when he when he left. And that was the only thing we got on the trail cams.
Any signs of wildlife or anything.
No nothing on the trail, no other no animals on the trail cam. So, you know, that was kind of disappointing, But then you know, we've obviously seen things where people have said, you know, possibly obviously nobody knows. Maybe Bigfoot can see that, you know, if they are out there, maybe they can see the infrared on the on the game cam and they avoid them. But no, no wildlife whatsoever we saw the whole time we were out there, and and we never you know, in fairness to our critics,
we never saw bigfoot. We never got a picture of a bigfoot. But we had some crazy experiences that as guys who tried to explain things. You know, we're both scientists, we're both physicians. We can't explain them other than potentially if it was a bigfoot. And you know, we get a lot of joshing from our friends and family that you know, we've come to this conclusion even though we've never seen a bigfoot or got a picture of a bigfoot.
Yeah, but whenever it comes to this stuff, I call it the fifty to fifty rule, which is pretty much as good as you're going to get without having an actual physical sighting of a bigfoot. And that's whenever you get to the point where you're like with the log for instance, where it's okay, well this was either a person or it was a bigfoot, and then you just kind of have to go over the idea of like, okay, well,
how probable is it that it was a human? And in everything you're describing there doesn't seem to be any signs of it being human as the cause.
And that was basically our thinking as well, well, all the things that that we found kind of off that trail across the creek. You know, how do you explain an igloo made out of sticks that are weaved with no other sign of humans around. How do you explain that, you know, three steps across a twenty foot marsh with sixteen inch foot feet, How do you explain that log jammed into the ground exactly where that thing would have crossed the trail at it, you know, off that marsh.
You know, there there aren't many explanations of that being human behavior.
All those things who's throwing p Yeah?
Yeah, pinecones falling out of the tree is a pretty random occurrence, and just the sheer number and that amount of time, and the fact that they all landed by you, guys, and nowhere else that I mean, Yeah, something was throwing pine cones at you.
And with no wind.
Yeah, I mean if you could expect it, if there was a thirty mile an hour wind and I was sitting under under a redwood, that, yeah, five or six pine cones might fall in a two minute period. But then even with that, if there was wind and there wasn't, I'd explained two or three landing all around David out in the open. You know, that would have taken a one hundred mile an hour wind to do that, and there was no wind, and you know the other things. As I think back on that experience, you know, they
were like perfect misses if you would. We were never hit, but we were also whatever was throwing them sort of let us know that if it wanted to, it could have hit us. With those pine cones, they were all within a foot of us.
Yeah, it wasn't over like minutes, and this was within thirty sixty seconds that this happened.
Wow, I mean, that's even crazier to get completely unscientific about it. Did you guys ever have a sense of like being watched?
The only time I'd say is something is that when when we both turned to look up at that point when they started landing by me, I think we both felt something was there throwing things at us. Whatever it was, We both turned at the same time. We both had the same you know, I felt the sensation. We both looked in the same direction, you know, at the same time. We both you know, it was at that point I said, something is doing this, you know, And that was the only time that I would have felt.
There was, you know, and I would say my turning and looking up there, you know. You hear a lot of people say that they they kind of felt that they're being watched the whole way in on a trail or something like that. I didn't have that feeling. It's just it was sort of a quick process of elimination. There was a creek behind us. Couldn't have come from across the creek because that was probably across the creek was maybe one hundred and fifty feet, so those would
be some tremendous throws. So we were sort of surrounded on two sides by a creek behind us. The trail kind of flattened out off to our left, and we could see down there. There was nothing there. It was just more of a office of elimination. I knew it wasn't behind me on the creek, and I knew it wasn't down by the trail, So to me, it was just more process of elimination. I just sort of reasoned that it had to be up there. I personally never
had a sense that something was watching me. I just had a realization that these pine cones were coming up from the ridge behind our tent.
Did you save one of the pine cones?
We didn't say that. I took a close up of one of the green ones because I was like, no one's going to believe that there's green pine cones, and I said, yep, I'm taking the picture of this one.
And clearly, you know, we we admit we're trying our rookies at all. This this is our first trip. We had a lot of mistakes. We we didn't have a take measure to measure the you know, footprints, We didn't bring back one of the pine cones. We didn't have any audio recorders out. We just had game trail or game cameras, and we had some night vision infrared flear cameras that we never found anything on. But we were just kind of newbies out there again, not expecting to
find anything. So yeah, we probably should have brought one of those home and maybe seeing if there was DNA on it or whatever. But but we were, in a real sense, just rookies at doing this.
I just asked, because I've seen a few people with a rock sitting up on their mantles before that they brought home.
From Yeah, we should have brought back We should have brought up trophy, but we didn't.
I had a really good friend that was on an outing in Alabama, I believe, and they weren't even doing anything at the time. They were sitting around camp, round the campfire, and they thought that a rock had been thrown at them, and it kind of got their attention.
So they're paying attention, and she said, the next thing, you know, this rock comes whizzing by her head and hits the tree right behind her chair, and you know, it hit pretty hard and it just landed right there on the ground next to her, and she took it home with her. So I understand completely. I've also experienced the whole rock throwing thing myself, and the whole perfect miss concept is exactly what it seems like they do. I can't believe that they can't hit you. I just
choose that they choose not to hit you. But yeah, it's weird how they do that. Do you guys have any theories on the purpose us of that. Do you think they're just trying to get your attention or mess with you or see how you'll react. What do you think they're doing that for? If they are responsible for it, I.
Think it'd be you know, an attention thing. Okay, this is already you know, we've been walking around the area where they've been walking, you know, walking, you know, on their game trails and things like that.
So I don't know, I kind of have the same thought as David. You know, none of that happened until we crossed the creek. Once we did that, you know, sort of the next day or the second time we went across the creek into their territory, found all these things.
You know.
Obviously this is just me assuming, but I think they were letting us know that they were around and this was their territory. Now, obviously I have no knowledge of what they might be thinking, but I think we were just letting us know. And as it turns out, it just happened to be the morning we were planning on leaving anyway.
Yeah, we were going to leave anyway, guys.
So no, really, we.
Had planned I had to be back to work on Monday. This was Friday. We had a two day drive out and then I had a plane plane to leave, so we had kind of planned on leaving on the Friday. No matter what. They just, you know, maybe if we had planned on saying on Saturday, who tell Saturday. Who knows, Maybe we would have left on Friday anyway, but because of the pine pine cones, I don't know.
Yeah, that next night could have gotten real interesting.
Yeah, we didn't lead because of the pinecones. Yeah.
I wanted to ask a question about the piles of scott that you found. Where were these in relation to the shelter all around?
I mean I was in forty or fifty feet and they were not in the same area. I mean it was literally so to circumferential around the dwelling. So it was kind of as if whatever decided to have to go to the bathroom in the middle of the night or whatever just decided. Well, I went, you know, to the right yesterday, now I'm going to the left today. There there was, like I said, six or eight piles and they were just literally scattered all around.
You know.
Like I said, in our camp, we all went in one place, so we knew to avoid it, knew we didn't want to step in it, knew we didn't want to smell it. These were all around the camp.
David, I'm going to put you on the spot since you brought up Tom Brown Junior earlier, any idea on how old the scout was.
I would, you know, and looking at it, it wasn't like wet per se. I would probably think a week or two weeks, you know, something that wasn't It wasn't like not like I dried, you know, like falling apart dry. But you know, definitely in the medium time i'd see medium time dream.
Just in terms of speculation, my mind is kind of going to an area of it was possibly used as like sort of a boundary marker around the shelter, kind of a you know, stay away, i'm here type thing.
Yeah, maybe, I don't know.
Could be they were all, you know, all probably in a fifteen to seventy five foot radius around around the dwelling, so could be. And like you said, they're they're not in one spot, so they did go all around. So maybe maybe it wasn't random. Maybe it was sort of a hey, this is my territory, don't come in.
Yeah, that's so weird. I've just never I have never heard anybody find something like that before.
Yeah, we had neither know our research and you know, crazy crazy finding. We certainly were not expecting to find it. And we do have some pictures at least of the Igloo structure. I can't remember. I maybe David took some pictures of the scat. I don't don't really remember about that though.
So you guys weren't finished though, And I mean, as crazy as all that stuff is and as remarkable as it is, the next trip was pretty interesting as well. Well did you guys just have bigfoot fever at that point and had to get back out there? How long was it before you were in Washington?
It was about two years later. We definitely were like, hey, we got to do this again. We were excited about we had what we had, so we I was in twenty twenty two and we did the California trip, and then this year was when we decided to go again. So probably January of this last year we started planning it. During decide, hey, when we want to go. You know, we had talked before about when to do it and were pretty much the same week we were. We always
try to do it before hunting season starts. You know, I just don't want to be out there, you know, during hunting season, your season and things like that. So we try to decide, Okay, where do we want to go? Do you want to go the same place? Do we
want to do something different. We thought about going to Canada and and I was like, I wouldn't mind going to Canada, you know, but it's there's difficult getting guns and stuff up there, and you know, I feel like I need to have my self protection and stuff with there. So we said, okay, let's not do Canada. We looked at Alaska, a long ways to go, so we thought, hey, how about Oregon or Washington? You know, so that's kind of we decided to go from there.
Like David said, we started our research. We've you know, David had done most research for the California trip and finding a spot. I semi retired in January, so I have work about halftime, and I have more time now. I started, you know, scrubbing YouTube and trying to find people who had been in Washington. And you know, obviously I realized pretty quickly that Washington had more sightings than
any other the lower forty eight states. I think at the time I started looking the BFROS that there were six hundred and seventy six Class A and Class B sidings. And those are just the ones that were reported to the bf R. You know, there's obviously many that go unreported so we figured Washington would be, you know, relatively easily accessible. Then we started looking at the population. We wanted to try to get, you know, as far away
from population as we could. And fifty products and eighty percent of the population of Washington's on the west third and a half of Wassington and only twenty percent on the eastern half, So we kind of concentrated on the eastern half of Washington. And then I started finding videos on YouTube. But one of them is from Grassman fifty eight. That's his title. I think his name's Will Palmer. I don't know if you know him, but he has a
number of videos. He describes a corridor sort of starting in northeastern Washington where we were, and I think he describes four zones going south through Washington. He describes him as A, B, C, and D, so I think we
ended up in his A zone. And he has a number of videos and a lot of them are concentrated around Bullivan Lake, which is the northeastern corner of Washington, and he has some specifically along the Sullivan Creek which feeds into Sullivan Lake, and there's a campground that has eighteen spots and they're sort of spread out over about twelve miles or so along Sullivan Creek Road, and he has videos specifically having quite a bit of activity near
the end of those campgrounds, specifically in Ampsite seventeen. I think he has a whole video located in that area. And he seems pretty reasonable. You know, a lot of people on YouTube are how what should I say, enthusiasts to every little sound is bigfoot and every little you know, crack in the woods is big footed. But he seemed very reasonable on his videos. And he even has a video of he left out his incorrect camera one night winning across the small Lake. I don't think it was
near Sullivan Lake, but small little Lake. He just left it out at night, and at two in the morning he saw two upright individuals come out of the forest and start rummaging on the shoreline. They stayed out about an hour or so and then went back into the forest. And he realized that the next day when he watched it. He went over there and there was no trail over there, and whatever had been there had been digging up clams in the middle of the night at two in the morning, freshwater clams.
Wow.
So yeah, So that was kind of our reason to pick northeastern Washington. I then went and called the ranger because I wanted to do my due diligence, and I asked him where we could camp that was sort of as far away from the other campsites as possible, but
still we had access to the water. And the ranger suggested Gypsy Meadows, which is probably a mile or a mile and a half half campsite, seventeen further into the wilderness, but yet it had a bathroom maybe an eighth of a mile away if we beted it, and had fresh water with Sullivan Creek. So we sort of chose Gypsy Meadows as the place that we were going based on that Will Fomer's videos.
Yeah, so that's that's when we decided to go. And you know, we you know, it was like, you know, we talked about all these camps and we realized that this was you know, it's a long like seventy eight miles up the dirt road, and the camps are all spread out. So when we got up to Gypsy Meadows, you know, it was we got there mid mid afternoon, you know, and we were we went to the end of the campsite that we were you know, the farthest into the meadows, found a nice camp side over there
and set up camp there. We saw one guy in a trailer that was camp right in the camp round right before Gypsy Meadows on the same side. It is about an eighth of a mile from us. But you know, the meadow was about one hundred and fifty yards long and about fifty yards wide in that area, and you could it was right close to the creek. You could drive up right close to the creek and get water if you needed.
So we started setting up camp and you know, after getting my tent up in ten or fifteen minutes, I start blowing up my airmattis with a you know, a little electric backpacking pump I have, and it makes a wine. The engine and the fan make a wine. As soon as I turned this on, we noticed that an owl in the middle of the afternoon our hoot at us from across the creek, maybe a quarter mile away. And it seemed a little stranger an owl would a hoot
during the day. But we did some research and that was sort of the lower end of the range of the bard owl, and sometimes it's known to hoot during the day. So we didn't really think much of it. But as soon as I turned off the the motor, hooting stopped, and we kind of mentioned the hooting, not that it couldn't be an owl, but but hooting sort of came before everything strange that.
Happened after that, and so we we didn't take much of that. When we first happened, Hey, it sounded like an hour, you know, it's just what started happening, you know, later really got kind of kind of nuts. But so we you know, we got there, we set up camp. We still had an hour or two. So we went you know, hiking at the end of the middle of the trail that goes out, and then we crossed the creek and started following some game trails and the things
that we had found. And I found like a you know this time we're bringing you know, found a fourteen inch footprint and they go, Kurt, look at this, and it's just it's just out in the forced that it's not like a trail or anything. Found this indentation and you know, an inch or two depth, and when we stepped there, we're not making any dents in the ground with it. So that's interesting. It's a little bigger than what our shoe was, but it was a lot deeper
than what we were doing. So the next day we decided to go back and I tried to cast that. It wasn't a great great print, but we'd never cast anything, and said, hey, it'll be good, good experience, you know, good practice. Let's you know, see what we can do. And hurt Us had brought in some you know, some apples and peanut butter. We decided to put a game camera on that area and put up these gifting things, you know, and see if we could draw something in,
you know, with that look. You know, that night you go, okay, what are we want to do? You know this again was you know, fire season, so we couldn't have a fire. So we said, hey, let's still driving, you know, so we would go at night. You know, most of the nights we were there, we'd go driving on the road. You know, I had a camera on my truck, you know, pick up things that if someone's working run across because
you never know, right, you know, and and stuff. So we'd go driving around and we drove up into you know, a trailhead area you know, one afternoon and you know, we hiked and you could see how desolate it was out there. You know. The only thing we saw one place was the fire lookout building way up on another ridge. But I mean you could see into Canada, Idahos, you know, about five miles away, just wilderness stuff, So it's just pretty pretty far out there.
Any signs of people other than the guy in the trailer.
Yeah, there were a few who had been up at the UH on the trail. We saw one guy hiking back. His car was parked up there at the trailhead, and we actually saw rangers up there on horses and they were off on the trail where it went off in the wilderness. They were just coming back as we went in.
So yeah, we probably saw three other people. Now, the rangers, you know, we got back to them to the trailhead after we hiked, and they had loaded up their horses into their trailer and they drove back as best we could tell, clear to the ranger station which was at Sullivan Lake like fifteen sixteen miles away. Now where these other people went when they came out of the trailhead, I have no idea, but you know, their car was gone as well, So there were other people out there.
But then that evening you know, we were not allowed to have fires, which is kind of disappointing. That's what you do at night around a campfire. As you sit there, it gives you warmth, and like watching the TV at home. And right before bed, that same owl across the creek started hooting a little bit, and it was kind of right as we were turning off the lights. And again
we didn't think much of it. But that night, for whatever reason, the previous night, I'd on the right asleep, but that night I just could not get to sleep. I don't know if it was that I was on a mattress or what. And we probably went to bed about nine thirty. In about ten to twelve, I looked at my watch. I still wasn't asleep, and about fifteen minutes later, that owl started hooting again, and this time it just didn't stop. I mean it was like four
hoops and then another set of four hoots. Wait ten or fifteen seconds.
Do it again.
And this went on for probably a minute and a half and there were no responses to his call or her call, and then the hoots started getting quicker. They sounded louder. I don't know if it had come closer. And then the hoots degenerated into what I clearly believe I heard were whoops, not hoots. They were whoops. And after a couple of whoops, all of a sudden, to our north, and this was off to the west. If we had heard this one owl off to the north, there was a response of hoots and it was a
clearly a deeper voice. And then behind our camp upper ridge, there was another response and they were hoots. But once that whatever that being was owl or other, once it heard a response, it stopped hooting. After about two minutes. Well, you know, now I'm kind of wondering what this was. And again rookie mistake. We didn't have our recorders out, but I tried to go back to and next thing I know, it starts up again. I look at my watch.
It's now about an hour later, and I hadn't fallen the sleep, same exact pattern you know, that started shooting. The hoots turned to loops. Once they got loops, the responses came back, and uh, next thing I know, it seems like it was only five minutes later, I'm being awakened by David. But I apparently had finally fallen asleep, and about two fifteen two thirty, he wakes me up and he found he had heard something even more astonishing.
So there had I mean that afternoon another some other campers came in, or the couple guys showed up. We were about seventeen eighteen year old and then one that the other one was in his late twenties or so I would guess about that. But they were at the other end of the meadow, which was about one hundred
and fifty yards away from us and stuff that. So I got woken up about one thirty year to somewhere in that time, and I started hearing this whoop, you know, the whoops again and it was but it was close, and it was it was loud, and you know, I get up started listening to this thing and it was moving and I was like, that is nuts. It was like, but it was going from right for the from right
to left. If I was looking towards those guys camp, he was going from right to left and from the creek to the road and up the ridge up there. Would you say about a one hundred and fifty yards Curt, Yeah, it was easily easily, but this thing was moving and I would say as over fifteen or twenty seconds, this thing was moving from where the creek was where we would get water. I was like, whoop, poop, and then it started moving right I thought it was going right
through those guys camp. I thought it was like right on top of them, you know, where your perspective where you're trying to see the sound. But right in the middle of all there was a whoop, whoop, whoop. All of a sudden, I hear this garbling that all I can describe it, right, you know, they sounds like share sounds. It hurts here sounds and it goes that is not whooping. And then they kept going. It's kept moving and then it got back to whoop, whoop, whoop, and admit it
just went on up the ridge with it. And I was waking up. Chris, did you hear that? You know what the heck was that? And he comes climbing out. We looked down the meadow and these two guys are climbing out of their tent with their flashlights, looking around and seeing what the heck's going on. And so it was about to two o'clock to thirty, you know, at that time, and we didn't hear anything else after that, but I was kind of like, that is crazy, and
again we hadn't had we hadn't you know, we're doing rookies. Again, we hadn't turned on our recorders that night, being it was the first or second night that we were there, and so we were like that is nuts. So we finally went back to bed, and then you know, the next morning, you know, we went.
Up so reathfull night sleep obviously, but I went got back in bed about two or thirty, like David said, and we'd all been out, all four of us, looking around this meadow with our flat flights, trying to figure out what had made the sound. And I hadn't heard the Sierra sounds like David had. I had only heard the hoots and whoops, you know, at midnight and one o'clock. I must have fallen asleep in between, but eventually get back to bed, kind of in and out of sleep.
Finally I see light coming in around six am, and I decided, I'm not sleeping anymore. I'm just going to get up and walk to a court or an eighth of a mile or so to the bathroom.
And when I got down.
There, the older of the two guys who had been in that and at the other end of the meadow was coming out of the bathroom, and I, I kind of wanted to ask him what's what he what his experience was, without you know, giving him a leading question. And I said, boy, that was kind of a crazy night, wasn't it. And he said, yeah, what was that? And I shrugged my shoulders and said, I don't know, just you know, trying to get him to to tell me
what had happened. And he said, man, I think there was more than one of more than one of them, whatever it was, and they were right on top of him. One may have even been up in the tree above my tent. And he said they He said, they started, you know, running past my tent eventually, and then up across the little road going into the meadow, up the ridge behind your camp, and they were gone. And he said,
and while they were running, they were barking. And I said, you mean like a dog and he said, well, not really, but that's the only way I can describe it. And so I said to him, well, can you imitate what you heard? And he kind of did his best, and it sounded he repeated exactly what David just did. It sounded exactly like the Sierra Sounds. So David had was still asleep, but we had confirmation that what David had heard was exactly what this guy had heard. And he said, well,
what was that? I said, I don't know, but if you ever heard of the Sierra sounds and he said no, I haven't, And I said, well, what do you think of bigfoot? And he kind of had a nervous chuckle and shrugged his shoulders and kind of turned around and walked back towards his camp. Incidentally, I don't know if they had planned it. I didn't talk to him again,
but shortly after breakfast they were out of there. I don't know because what they heard or that was their plan to only be there one night, but they were pretty much gone right after breakfast. So here at six fifteen, I talked to this guy for about five or ten minutes. David's asleep before I get done going to the bathroom. They both described that it went up this ridge and
across the main road. So I walked out to the main road and locked up the road maybe one hundred and fifty yards, and that was probably about the level of our camp, you know, into the meadow. It was essentially parallel to our camp, and I noticed across the road a tree break that was about nine or ten feet up and it was clearly a tree break sort
of pointing further into the wilderness. And it was right up against the road, was sort of right up against the incline that I would ask to make was at about fifty degrees, and something had sort of turned up the dirt up that you know, the grass and stuff up that incline, and this is not something that I would be trying to climb, but whatever had had come across the road literally went up the incline right next
to this tree break. So I start thinking, well, there's got to be a game trail that they came, you know, from behind our camp up to the road. If I crossed the road and start looking, and sure enough, I find a game trail coming out. So I kind of mark it with a stick and make sure we can find it later if we set up there. And you know, even though it was maybe one hundred to one hundred and fifty yards behind our camp up to the road,
this was dense forest. It was you know that saying you can't see the forest because of the trees from the road. I'm looking in I just see trees, you know, That's all I see. So I walk back to our camp and as I get to the meadow, David is kind of there looking in the grass that had been trampled, you know, trying to see what he could see.
Yeah, I was just trying to see if there had to be some type of tracks or something going across there. It's you know, there's multiple area that's like trampled down, but it couldn't get any definite you know, prints or things. But I said, we've had to be right through these guys camp. So it's kind of looking and we found a couple of game trails behind their camp. They crossed the road and went you know, across this meadow area that I was trying to look for prints and stuff.
And then so we decided to start following this trail trailways. We got going and following, like, you know, hey, I think this looks open here, let's start going this way. And we started following this trailway. Then we end up coming on this we find this real huge X you know, of these trees, and we're looking at that and go look at this, you know, and it's a perfect X and these are large trees, and you know, we're trying to say is this normal or is this happened by
stance or what was it that it? You know, two standing trees are you know about you know, six you know, six feet apart and about a foot thick, and they're bent over forming this perfect X, you know, and it's right on this game trail that we were tracking, you know, to go up there, and you know, the first tree had been pushed over, you know, had a rip ball on it, you know, it started coming up with it.
It was wedged between two other trees. But the second one was strange was that in order for it to form the X, the tree had to be twisted and you could tell we took pictures of that, but the bottom of the tree wasn't being pulled up, but it was rotated and twisted. It's like you pull this tree down and push it over to fit between these two trees in order to form the sex. There's like no way that was going to fall that way, and it wasn't falling. It was still in the ground and you
just pushed over and twisted. You could see the rotation in the bark at the bottom of the tree. You know, we're breaking off and rotating and that's not natural, you know. And what was crazy was that right after that we fall the trail. We ended up right where Curtis had marked marked his trail. Wow.
An interesting point about the guy that you spoke to. I notice you said that he related that they were running.
I think it's because of how quickly they moved. I mean, as David said this area, he was probably maybe thirty yards from the creek. But you know, from the sounds of what David had described, and this guy had described whatever they were had come from across the creek, and he was probably thirty yards from the creek, maybe a little more, and then another one hundred to one hundred and fifty yards up the trail. And by the time David gets out of his tent and wakes me up,
nothing is heard. I never heard any of this. So whatever happened, No, it covered a tremendous amount of ground or they covered a tremendous amount of ground in fifteen twenty seconds. It covered maybe one hundred and fifty to two hundred yards. So I don't know, he didn't see anything, he just you know, heard I guess stomping.
If you would.
I don't know how football, I guess the better way of saying it. And because of the distance they covered, you know, he couldn't get out of his pant quick enough either to see anything. I think he assumed they were running. I really don't know. I didn't question him on that.
I was moving fast, and you know, if I was looking at degrees on pointing it towards the creek, all the way to where it disappeared had to be within twenty or thirty seconds.
Was this all open meadow or were there trees?
No, it's well the meadow where their camp was. They were at the end of the meadow, so I had thought that it sounded like it was going right through their camp, but they said it was like behind, right behind them. And we did find those two large game trails that went from the creek right behind their camp across the entrance road that goes into the meadow, and that's where we started our trail and went up and
found that X up there. So it was right close to them, but it was through the woods from the creek to where it got to the you know, the road that goes into the meadow.
A couple hundred yards at around two two thirty in the middle in the morning burnband, so there's no there's no light, there's no light. So whatever it was that was traveling at that speed in Pitt's black darkness and.
Then garbletalk, you know, and then back to eating, you know, as they went up the up the ridge.
So that was world class speed basically, you know. And like I said, I hadn't hadn't heard all of that, but David's was twenty feet from mine, and literally what he told me was, you know, he'd heard these hoots, but once he heard it moving, he unzipped his sleeping bag, unlipped his tent and was at my tent. However long it takes to travel twenty feet and he's trying to get me up, and when I wake up, I hear nothing.
So you know, whatever mind framed that is. You know, David said it was measured in seconds, not in minutes by any means.
I mean, as someone who has heard the hero sounds. David, what did you think when you heard that?
I was like, that is talking, you know, that was to me it was there was communication going on with being that fast across it, and it was like that was amazing. What did I just hear? And I go The on thing I could describe it was, you know, that came to my mind was, you know, the Sierra sounds sh sounds were a little more separated in the you know, in the conversation if you if you know what I mean by that, you know, you hear one
and then hear another. This was like a they were just at each other right right, right right, you know, it's like right, you know, and then it gets back into the hooting.
From your perspective, could you did it sound like two distinct voices?
It sounded more than that. It sounded to me like there was like three different at least three different things going. You know. It was a it was a pack of something, you know. To me, it was all I could see was this, there's something group of something going across there and they're moving.
Fast and and and then David's uh, you know, just to give him more creams to what he said without prompting, the guy had said they to me, and he said there was more than one of them. So and the interesting thing, you know, he thought one of them might at one point been in a tree up above him. And as David said they were stamped right on the edge of where the forest met the meadow. They were
maybe ten feet into the meadow. Is all so very easily something could have been above them, or I suppose, you know, the other explanation for something being right above their kent not being in trigue maybe if something was ten feet tall.
Yeah, I was going to say, we're not used to hearing things eight to ten feet off the ground, so right right.
So whether something was actually in the tree or not, I don't know, but that's how he described it. And he definitely said they and them and it was not one of one. Whatever it was behind his tent that night.
Did you guys stay any more nights after that?
Yeah? That was like on the second night you know that we were there that that happened. It just kind of strange, you know, after we went the evening after we did that, we were broken up again by these hoots again coming across the creek. And I think Curtis, you heard something walking, you know.
Yeah, about eleven thirty the hoots started across the cross the creek. I had a recorder out that night. I still I've had some technical issues. I haven't been able to listen to the whole thing. I had it down close to where that guy's camp was. There was a sort of a gypsy meadows sign that I had taped from my recorder to I'm still trying to get through
it to see if it picked up these hoots. But about eleven thirty hoots across the creek, and then maybe five or ten minutes later, I hear something moving behind our tents up this ridge and I couldn't estimate how close it was, but it was close enough to hear, you know, football. Now, I can't say, even though I'm an orthopedic surgeon that I could say what was traveling there was bipedal, but something was definitely moving in the
in the forest right behind us. And then you know, shortly after, maybe a few minutes after I heard this movement, kind of all hell broke loose with hoots all around us. And David could say more about that because they were real close to his tent.
Yeah, that was about that evening. There was something that just was like ten yards from my tent and it was you know, there's like a post where you used to tie horses in the meadow, and I felt it was like right by that post, and it woke me up, and it just you know, and I was going, you know, we had started talking and are these things big fits or are they mimicking owls or what are they? But what is this sound? You know that we keep hearing and you know that they go to woops. So we
did not know. But this thing was right outside my tent and it was loud, and I in the dark. I was like, do I turn on a light? Do I get out of my tent right now? After this thing is standing yeah, in the middle, in the middle of the meadow, not in the tree. It was like in the middle of the middle. And so I grabbed my phone and put the recorder on. I had planned to have it already ready to go in case something
woke up. And by the time I turned it on, this this loud hoover had moved across the meadow and was still going, you know, and you know, I got some of those sounds, and it sounds like, you know, we we compare it to bar owls, but that's what it sounds like. But they eventually the end of the you know, some of the ends of the hooting kind of trails off and it becomes something different, and then
that kept going on. Then we started hearing. I started hearing things further away, you know, towards the North Moor and then out behind our camp right then and so again, after a little bit, I got those sounds on my iPhone.
You know, that was good. But the original, the one that was ten yards away, I'm like, so I get out, you know, I had my forty four, but I'm not do I climb out of it standing outside here, you know, But that was that was pretty you know, pretty freaky to have something that close to you yelling that loud. It was just a lot. It was tremendously loud.
Yeah, you know, I was awake, you know, I don't know anybody.
Can stuff too. It was, like David said, close, It was not. When they started, they had been maybe a quarter mile away where everything had started before. But now, you know, I was probably twenty feet further from David, so maybe I was fifty feet from where it started. But something did answer it off to the north and off to the area where I'd heard football football off
to our east. So anyway, one time the day before we had been one of our hypes come up to where an owl was up in a tree and it was probably sixty feet up in the tree, and when we got to within one hundred feet of it, it took off. It didn't want to have anything to do with us. And when it took those first four or five wing flaps from one hundred feet away, you could hear a whoosh, whoosh, whoosh. It you know, started to
get up the energy to fly. And like David said, as this thing moved away from you know, right on the meadow just outside his tent, to across the meadow, there was no wing flap that occurred. I mean, whatever had traveled across that fifty yards without that same noise
of the of the owl. So again, you know, we didn't pick up any pictures or or or anything like that on our game trails, but something got very close to our tents and then you know, we go back to bed the next but I didn't hear anything more of the rest of the night. David's been listening to his recordings and like you said, he's been comparing them to bar owls, and they're similar, but they're definitely different
on his spectrum analysis. So you know, again that we're these owls, I don't think so because it didn't fly away. Owls don't typically run away, you know, and this spectrum analysis is slightly different. But the next morning we want both walked down towards the bathroom again and this little road that led into the meadow had been scraped, you know, out of the out of the forest, and it was essentially hard pack and we could stomp on it even
on wet ground, and we wouldn't leave a footprint. But David's one truck had left a track and where the tired and it had chewed up a little bit of a dirt and there was a about an eighteen inch by six inch wet footprint right in.
His tire track.
And we hadn't seen it there before and it was wet. Wow, it was not it was not a big indentation, nothing you could could cast. It was just a wet footprint, which made us think it was, you know, relatively recent. And then we started searching around that area and that footprint basically was right next to another tree break that
was about nine and a half feet off the ground. So, you know, if you believe in tree breaks as being markers, then this is potentially an area where whatever it was was used to crossing that little road that went into the meadow. You know, if not it was coincidental. But now we've found two tree breaks in within about one hundred and fifty yards, both of which seemed to mark a trail or at least a place where something had come out of the woods and crossed the road.
The tree was alive, No, that that tree break. The tree was alive. Wow. And so that the tree, you know, the upper leaves and the break were turning yellow. They weren't like being dead for very long. But the branches below it, below the break, were still green.
And you guys didn't notice the tree break prior to that, No, we.
Hadn't seen that.
It doesn't mean it wasn't.
There, right, It was right that it was right by that foot you know, way that track was.
And was the track where was the track in relation to the creek.
It was in the same area where we had heard that pack go.
Through, so maybe one hundred feet.
From the creek.
Yeah, probably in the direction in the direction of the road and then off to the main road towards the main road. It was the same area where we had heard that pack go through there. And the interesting was is like, why is there only one track. There had to be a huge, you know, stride in order to get from across the road to that one area. It just looked like a wet track. I think I sent a picture of it and put my foot by it
to see how big it was. But it had to be a huge stride to get across just by one step.
Were the vocalizations each night, starting around the same time and coming from the same general area.
So the first night they started around midnight, and yet they were coming from the same area that we had heard that original hooting when I started up my airpump, maybe across the creek maybe, you know, sounds are sometimes hard to estimate distance, but I would say about a quarter mile away. Then that first midnight and one o'clock when I heard them before I fell asleep, they seemed to come from the same area, but again we're answered
by something else to the north and the east. And then that night when the hoops started about eleven thirty, that first hoot was in that same direction. And you know, one of the days, while we had nothing else to do, we went off over that side of the creek and we could not find a trail, and we were basically bushwhacking it, and you know, I had my garment on just we make sure we get back to camp. And yeah,
we were going slow and looking for things. But we went a total of three quarters of a mile out three quarters a mile back, and it took us over two hours to travel across the creek, bushwhacking it over deadfall and all these other things. And so that's the only thing we could find up there. And then on a map there are no trails up on that side of the creek whatsoever. It's just as best we could tell wilderness.
Wow, my brain has just raised. I wonder if that's just like a maybe a travel route that they're taking that just happens to go through that meadow.
Yeah, it has to be something, you know that's that X has anything to do with it.
As I said, Will Fulmer has a video specifically on Campsite seventeen where he's had a lot of activity, and that is probably a mile from Gypsy Meadows maybe, so he's had a lot of activity right in the exact same area. So you know, maybe it is a a a roadway for him.
Said to speak, Have you reached out to will about this?
So I did send him a message on one of his videos and I emailed him, and that was probably three weeks ago. On his video. He kind of gave my my comment a like, and in my email I sent him basically what I had sent you are two Facebook posts that kind of listed everything, and he has not responded back to me, so I don't I have not been in touch with him, but basically he's kind of the reason we went to this area, just seeing his videos online and we've had, you know, some similar experiences.
But as you may or may not remember, we weren't quite done amazing. As amazing as it sounds, we weren't done so that that day that he you know, we'd seen the we'd heard the hoots the night before, seen the wet footprint. Right around dinner time, we heard that hooting, but this time it started behind us up the ridge, not across the ridge, and all kind of let David take over as to what happened after that.
Yeah, we were well, we were just relaxing in our hammocks, you know, and all of a sudden, you know, as the days had gone along, we start wondering, are these hoots big foot? You know, because of everything that's been going on all of a sudden, we hear this thing and it was we heard just loud hoo going on, just like I would estimate, only thirty yards up on the ridge behind our camp, which is you think, is that close, Curtis, Yeah.
It was. It was closer than you know, it had been from across across the creek by by far.
So as soon we heard that we were in our hammocks, we both we jumped out of Miami, let's go, and we grabbed our guns, grabbed our gear, and we started heading up that ridge in it. The call was coming a little bit from where we're looking at towards our camp, towards the main road. It was a little left to where the X was. But we started going up this ridge and you know, I grabbed my camera, my video camera had it on. I'm saying, I was thinking, we
are close to something. We're going to see something right here. And we started hiking up. We've gone up. We'd seen some you know, deep inset footprints probably sixteen inches but they're about four inches deep on this ridge that we were going up there. And as we're going along, all of a sudden, you know, we hear these three whoops. It's like definite woo woo, you know, in a different direction. And I turned to Curtis and said, I'm not getting distracted.
I'm not getting pulled away in a different direction. We're going this direction, and but this is where we heard where we were, but we felt like we were being pulled in a different direction, you know, like something was trying to distract us and pull us in a different thing. And we kept going. We didn't We eventually didn't. We didn't see anything that time. We were going really slow, trying to you know, look in the area and film it.
And then my video camera battery started going going out, and it was getting started getting dark, and we decided to head back. We had got we'd gotten. We heard the three loops were coming more from where we had seen the X, you know, in that direction. But I thought the wops were on the other side of the road, you know that from where they do were.
And before we turned back, David may you probably remember these trying to say the direction we were heading, we found another tree structure that I can only describe as a teepee.
Probably four or five twenty.
Foot long sticks, branches, whatever you want to call them, all coming together at their tips, just like a teepee wood that you'd see in the movie, and that was the direction that we'd heard the first call. And when we saw that, and like David said, we now hear the roofs, we decided to keep going towards the teepee because we had seen that and we didn't. We sort
of made a pact on our drive up. You know, we've seen people describe that they heard something, they'd go one way and then they might hear a tree break in another direction, like they were being distracted. So we had made a sort of a pact that if we hear something like that, and of course we never expected to hear a distracting call, we would keep going. But like David said, we didn't really find anything and went back to our camp. Now is pretty much dark, and
you know, that night was pretty quiet. The next morning we got up about oh seven point thirty or so, he supped in and we both decided to walk down to the bathroom. And like we said, this whole week, there had been a guy in a trailer parked maybe one hundred feet past the bathroom, sort of in the last camping spots before he turned into the meadow. And we had waved at him a few times, said hi to him as we drove by or he was walking his dog. We said hi, but we'd never really talked
to him. So David goes off to the bathroom and I decided to walk out past his trailer up to the main road. And you know, I'd always explored up the road. I decided, while David's in the bathroom, I'm going sort of down the road. And I went down about one hundred yards. Didn't find any tree brakes or any trails, so I kind of cut back into the campground there and the rest of the campsites were completely empty. And when I walked, I had walked past his trailer.
Initially he was inside, and now I came back to his and he was outside, clearly looking around. And you know, this time, instead of saying hi, like we'd said four or five times before, his first words out of his mouth were, hey, is your Is your buddy dressed all in tan from head to toe? And I said no, First of all, I think he's in blue. I was trying to remember what David was wearing. I said, second of all, black.
Pants and my you know.
I said, second of all, he's still in the bathroom, and he said, well, I kind of saw you walk up to the to the road out of one of my windows, and I sat down, and about ten seconds after I sat down, my dog is just at the door, scratching and barking. So I get up, thinking that one of you guys had kind of come into my campsite. Which you know, like you said before, who's going to throw pine cones? Who's going to walk.
Into some guy's campsite uninvited? Yeah, that's Steven in the morning, you know.
So he said, I figured one of you guys were in my campsite, and I said, no, I'm you know, just coming back from my walk down the road.
He said, well, when my dog was barking, I got up and looked out the window.
And something big and tan I just barely sought for a second, walked from the creek area to across the road. And again, you know, as I said before, where a road hadn't been scraped or a campsite made, the forest was very thick and you could just you know, when you look into something, all you see is trees. And he was only one hundred feet from the bathroom, and
when he stood at the bathroom. You couldn't see his trailer, so what he had seen for a brief second was tall and big, and David's six floor and two hundred and fifty pounds. That's why he thought it was David and I had walked from the creek area to across
the road. So David gets out of the bathroom and we start looking around, and of course we find nothing, and then we start we start talking to the guy and asking him what he had heard the last few days, and he was a second confirmation of David hearing all that ruckus at the edge of the edge of the meadow, even though he was a little further away than the other campers, where he heard the same stuff happening in the middle of the night, you know, some motion in
the woods, calls and stuff like that. And then he said, you know, I've heard some weird things while i've been here. I've heard knocks. I heard a tree get knocked over off in in that wilderness area across the creek. And he said, I think I just saw bigfoot. You know, that's literally what he said.
And I don't know how to dispute what he saw.
We didn't see it. But there was no one else in any of the other campgrounds. And again this is o'clock in the morning, you know, coming from the wilderness across the creek and walking up to the road to that other area up the ridge where we had seen a broken tree before. So you know, we didn't see
anything again but this guy. And when we were not trying to talk him into bigfoot, he kind of came to that conclusion himself that he thinks, for a second or two he might have seen a big foot because it was ten he said, from head to toe.
I mean, what else could it have been? You know, Yeah, he knew what he saw. That's why he was hoping that you'd be like, oh, yeah, my friend's out here wearing a hooded sweatsuit.
Yeah, a tan jumpsuit from the head to.
So that, you know, we were kind of getting ready to leave the next day, and that late afternoon David kind of had a thought remembering back to what we had found in California. And I'll kind of let him say what he was thinking and what we eventually found up there.
Yeah, Well, that day before when we had chased that that the thing I'm coming back. I had noticed a wet area, a marsh area off to the right boards of direction where we've seen the X, and I had just noted it in my head. And last day I told Curtis, say, hey, I want to go up and explore that marsh area again, just another track trap and see what we can find. And so I didn't want to leave without doing that. And so we go. We
go walking up there. We come into the marsh and know and behold, I walked, I take it, come around a corner and I see these two footprints right in the mud. And I go, look at that. And we go over there and actually this time we had measuring tapes and things like that. I got to stick and mark them and measure them. When we got back where you know, our truck. But we found two footprints again.
I measured them sixteen and a half inches long, and the stride was forty eight inches a stride with the you know, the step step link of forty eight inches
to fifty two inches. And we started looking back behind it in line, and we noticed in the wet wet area where of that mars, we could see definite foot step disturbances, you know, because there's like you know, the the needles of the tree all fall in the water and they're all, you know, the whole place, all the water is covered with these needles except for where these footprints landed, and it's all disturbed and cleared up, and
you could see that. And they're all about the same stride length and going out, and I said, look at that, there's one there, and we go back the same distance, there's another one. So you start, you know, when you start looking for the next track, you want to look at the same distance and see where you're you know, that's where you're start looking for evidence and stuff. And we backed up, we about five different steps so we could identify disturbances in that wet you know, water area.
Then it comes into the mud where left that you know, first footprint we saw that we could see toes on and then the second one was forty eight to fifty two. And then we started walking further back in that same line and we found another one in another smaller wet area, going up a little incline that looked like we measured it again. It was sixteen and a half inches long. And that one we could definitely see toes in the ferns and things like that. So that was an exciting
way to enter. You know, in our search at that Dame, we took pictures of all that and stuff, so that was kind of exciting.
Yeah, And the interesting thing that one that was about one hundred feet behind was in the exact line of a progression of those other four And although they were wet and we couldn't cast them, there was definitely a print that you could see toes and you know, it was sixteen and a half inches long. As David said, we both wear size thirteen. I've measured my foot it's eleven and a half inches, just about or just above eleven and a half inches. Even with my shoe it's
only thirteen thirteen and a half inches. And so you know, we like to we've been pretty lucky on our trips. But we've gone into all these trips, like I said, at least trying to rule out the possibility that these could all be human events. And that's sort of what science is all based on. They call it the null hypothesis. You know, you try to rule out that it could have happened randomly. Well, in this case, it's not a science experiment, but we tried to rule out whether they
could or could not have been human. So when we got back civilization, I kind of looked up, you know what, what is a sixteen and a half footprint or sixte and a half inch footprint, And that's basically Shaquille o'nill's foot. His foot is sixteen and a half inches and he wears a size twenty two shoe. And I then start looking.
You know, now I'm going down a rabbit hole.
Is trying to figure out how cammon this would be, you know, barefoot, barefoot guy seven foot tall walking in the middle of the forest. Well, I find out that, you know, to be seven foot tall or above, it's only one person in two hundred and sixty thousand people. You know, it's very very rare. And then I said, well, you know how many people have world class speed? You know, to travel one hundred and fifty yards in fifteen seconds.
And that's not even on the flat that's in the dark across you know, basically bushwacking and across the land, but even on a flat track. I googled you know how many people have world class speed? And Google couldn't answer it, but it said it is by far much less than one percent. So you know, if you take the one in two hundred and sixty thousand and say it's maybe a half percent chance that a person could run in world class speed.
Now you're talking one in five million chants.
That you know, a seven foot tall person could run a world class speed. And then you start thinking, like I said, in the dark, no flashlight, in forty degree weather, in a light rain, barefoot across you know, across terrain.
That's just impossible.
For a human. When we as scientists in medicine, when we look at two forms of treatment and try to figure out which one is better for a certain disease these or a certain entity, they study patients and they put them in one group, and they study maybe a different medicine and a different group. If there is less than a five percent chance that that could have happened
randomly in science, that is considered statistically significant. In other words, there's a ninety five percent chance that that did not occur randomly. You change your medical treatment just based on a on a five percent chance. And here we have odds that even there was a person in the middle of the forest at much much less than one in
five million. So then I start going to like I said, going down the rabbit hole, knowing that in orthopedics we have data analysis studies, and I start looking at stride length or step lean and even at Shaquille O'Neill's height is average walking, you know, from one heel of the right foot to the left heel, the middle of the left foot in one normal step is just under thirty six inches. So then I.
Then and extrapolate from that.
Well, what does a forty eight inch stride or step length mean? And if you use that same equation and go backwards, that means if it was a human, they were nine feet six inches tall if it was a human. So then I started looking up, are there even you know, what's who's the tallest human in the world? And the tallest person known in recorded time was eighteen eleven inches and he died in nineteen forty And the current tallest person alive lives in Turkey and he's eight foot three inches.
So you know, to have something with a stride length that equals nine eat six inches in height doing all that stuff that we just described as signed is even though we haven't seen Bigfoot and we haven't taken a picture of Bigfoot, I think David and I are now, even though I was skeptical before our California trip, I think we're in the camp that Bigfoot was there, both in California and Washington. It's just that, you know, there's still the hide and Seek champions of the world and
haven't completely been found. We have no other conclusion. I mean, the science, you know, just points to that there's no other no other thing that could have.
Done all the things that.
That we experienced, even though we did not see a bigfoot.
I think you would also be fairly safe to say, I mean, even with your statistics, whenever a human reaches a certain height threshold, their athletic ability actually starts to decline. I mean, I can't imagine, you know that the guy that you were talking about, who is the world's tallest man that passed away in the forties or whatever, he definitely was not running, let alone at world class speed. He was barely able to walk, you know, So.
There's no doubt. And that's that's often why you know, those tall guys often have very short NBA careers. I mean, Bill Walton started having bad foot problems he was six or eleven, and he was a great center for like his first three years playing in the NBA, and then he was a decent, you know, off the bench player for eight or nine years, but his feet gave out.
He was not the same athlete after you know, two or three years of pounding in the NBA at the end of his career than he was at the beginning. So you're right. I don't see if it was a human that they could run one hundred and fifty yards in world class speed.
That's just crazy. You guys really hit the jackpot. Do you do you have any plans of going back to that location?
Yeah, I think we. Uh, we got asked to come up in video, do a video recording and tell our story in the spring, So I think we're playing them going up there in the spring. And you know that was Jonathan Jonathan jonathans us to come up and do that.
Okay, well, yeah, I look forward to that. Any plans to go on any more outings at different locations, Yeah, we are.
I think we're hooked.
Nothing nothing in the book, nothing in the books, but we're you know, I can't imagine they will be as good or exciting of an experience of our first two trips. But even if they're not, Like I said, we kind of went into this just go camping with our best friend, and I think in a way we were lucky and blasted to have found what we found.
Well, guys, I appreciate you coming on here and sharing your experiences and your stories and uh yeah, if you have any more, please feel free to reach out to me. I'd love to hear about it. Oh yeah, absolutely. If you've had an encounter with Bigfoot or something else un explaining, you'd like to share your story on Bigfoot Crossroads, email me at Bigfoot Crossroads at gmail dot com. Check out
the website Bigfootcrossroads dot com. You can find links to social media, past episodes, merchandise, everything you need all in one place. And until next time, remember there's something in the woods.