Big Food and on with Cliff and Bulbo. These guys are your favorites, so like say subscribe and raid It five star and greatest on USh Today and listening watchy Limb always.
Keep it's watching.
And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Greetings, Bobo, how you doing? Man?
All right with you? Cliff?
Oh, just enjoy the weather which is gray and gloomy and windy, but I will say it's not a cold wind and it's some of my favorite weather because everything's beautiful in the leaves and all that sort of stuff. I wish I can get out to the woods. It's going to be a couple more days, though, I'm looking forward to. I'm probably gonna get out Friday and go trip around in the woods and try to find some tracks in this awesome tracking substrate. And I guess I
got one more thing going on. I guess tomorrow I get to spend the whole day with Larry Lund. Super fired up about that cool.
Yeah.
Yeah.
He was supposed to come over to the museum earlier in the week, but uh, something got in his way there, so I moved some things around and I'm gonna go hang out with mister Lund for an entire day tomorrow.
He's because he's been digging around in his attic, and his attic is full of treasures, and like he was saying that, like, yeah, I haven't been back through in a while, and he dug out this box of stuff and there's all these letters and photographs from Renee to Hindon about these videos and stuff, and he goes, yeah, I want want to make sure you can you can see and hear some of this stuff and check it out, and if there's anything you want for the museum, you
can take it or whatever. And so I'm pretty fired up about going over to Larry's house tomorrow and digging into some serious archaic sort of a hidden Bigfoot history.
That's hard doing that because you got to like you're picking something.
You're like, well this is rather you start reading like it might be like four or five page letter and you're like, you gotta put it down so you can keep looking.
But you just you got it. You know, it's harder to go through stuff like that.
Dude, you are preaching to the choir and I'm a full time choir boying now because i'd spent about three hours last night out in my in my shop there in my outbuilding in the cast room. He's just trying to organize stuff, and it's like, oh gosh, what is this box?
You know? Oh?
And I open up. I remember this mostly files as fans orchard files. I started digging through there and there's a whole file in the nineteen ninety one Mill Creek trackway. Pull that out. There's a there's a small envelope full of negatives and a couple of pictures West Summerlin and some other people. I don't know who they are yet, So I got to reach out to some friends in the know, so perhaps I can learn a little bit more.
Find these vans orchards, handwritten notes about certain events that he used to pin his two fabulous books, Big with the Blues and The Walla Walla Bigfoot, which are fantastic books and collector's items that are super expensive at least original pressings are on eBay, like one hundred and fifty dollars a book sort of thing. But they're probably the
best single resource for a lot of that history. The Blues dot dot dot for now, hint, hint, hints, So we'll see what happens in the next year or two. As I kind of pieced things together. There is so much information out there, so much information that it's just like I'm going to Larry's house tomorrow, of course, as I mentioned, but like I don't know how much ram I have left in my brain because there's all these things. Oh, and I found a whole file full of bigfoot reports
from the Blue Mountains from like the nineteen seventies. In nineteen sixties, I found the original newspaper article when Roger Patterson followed up on Bigfoot reports in the Blue Mountains and then, you know, and looking through that file just brought to mind all these I don't even know what
to call them. I guess scoffticks like these, I mean, they're almost like Charlatan's skeptics, you know, like they're like they're like Charlatan's themselves, these people who are casting stones abouts and saying that there were there were no Blue there were no Blue Mountain big foots until Freeman showed up on the scene and they all went away when Freedom moved away. They're are you crazy? Do you know nothing? And I knew I knew a cut A couple of reports.
Man.
Man, there's files full of this stuff. Man, it's almost like a willful ignorance on the part of the Bigfoot community about the Blue Mountain evidence something needs to be done.
There's a lot of that amongst those cynics. How many times I well, I can't say how many times I've heard on skeptical podcasts that the description of the sasquatch, you know, no constriction at the neck, broad shoulders, the head shape that's typically described flat face.
On and on and on.
All started with William Rowe. I've heard that probably dozens of times by now. And it's like once again, like you said, do you know nothing?
Like yeah, like snake oil salesman's on the skeptical side, and they accuse us of that.
You know.
It's like no, no, no, no goes both ways here, buddy, Yeah, And so I do know again, just really really cool stuff out there in the room down there and the outbuilding and who knows what Larry has? Who knows? I mean a couple of times ago and I hung out with Larry. He goes you ever see these clips and let me borrow this DVD rawm and like a disc you know it wasn't a DVD, Like, it's not something you'd put into your video player and watch. But I put in the computer and lo and behold what was
on it? And I don't know where he got it? A bunch of color photographs of Roger Patterson and Dennis Jensen in Indonesia when Roger went over there to try to get that sasquatch out of the monastery.
Right.
I think we talked a little bit about that on the podcast here, but a lot of people are unaware that Roger threw away all the money he made on a Wild Goose Chase basically to try to get another sasquatch instead of going out to make another film, because which is crazy for a man with cancer who knew he was dying and thought that with enough money you
could probably heal himself. But he threw all his money away trying to get a live sasquatch capture could because somebody sent him a letter saying that they had one in an Indonesian monastery, and he and his buddy Dennis jen And went down there to try to get it. In fact years ago, and I tried to get a hold of this guy, and I just could not do it. Years and years and years ago, I got an email from a guy saying that a gentleman who lived in Spokane.
I believe. I tried really hard to get ahold of them, and I went to Spokane to visit the Freeman, Michael Freeman. But this guy claimed to be a young anthropologist back in the late nineteen sixties early nineteen seventies, and Roger Patterson had reached out to him with this idea dash scheme that if they got to Indonesia and the monks would not give up the Sasquatch, they were going to steal it somehow. And he was part of that whole thing,
that crazy scheme. Whoa yeah, yeah, and we think, oh, Bigfoot history, Ruby Creek, the Blue Creek, Mountain tracks, blah blah blah. Roger Patterson's film that kind of thing is like, no, man, there's this whole other level of Bigfoot history that is underneath there if you're willing to scratch the service a little bit, And it is so weird and so cool and so just intertwined with itself and in this weird mess.
It's it's pretty awesome. It's pretty awesome. I really love that sort of that side of things, and it's a site that almost nobody knows about.
Yeah, that's really cool. That is cool.
I mean I knew about that, but I don't know much. I don't know any details about it.
Really, no one does. No one does, because that's never really really been written down. The only record I've even aware of is Krantz briefly mentions it in his book. And then there are these photographs that Larry Lunn got from somebody, probably Dennis Jensen. I think that he knew Dennis at some point. And then you know, another crazy thing. There's another bigfooter named Dennis Jensen. It lives out in northern California.
Yeah, I know him.
Yeah, he's a cool guy. He would be a good podcast. Guess he's had some cool things happen.
Yeah. Yeah, he gave me. He gave me a bunch of cool stuff I got in my boxes.
Well anyway, Yeah, so I'm looking forward to tomorrow. That's gonna be neat. You know, if if there's any cool things that I get to see, or you know, Larry breaks out or something, I'll be happy to talk about next time we're on the podcast together. I mean last literally like the last time I saw Larry. He gave me that he gave the museum. It's still technically his. It's on it's on loan to the museum for one
of our displays. He gave me the original the oil painting for the cover of what's the cover of Peter Burns book. The reprinting of Peter Burns book that the Big Patterson Gimlin sort of painting. He gave us the original that's hanging on the wall in the museum. It's pretty cool, man.
Have there been any other holy crap moments going through the mildem archives since that's become a semi regular feature.
I think the biggest holy crap lately has been pouring over the casts, and it's particularly the Blue Mountain evidence. You know, I have a couple originals from Most of this stuf is from Freeman, but I have a couple.
I have a couple originals from Summerland, which are neat and Summerlin had a tendency to kind of whitewash his his casts because his his wife I think her name was Pee Wee or I remember right, said that she didn't like the way they looked, so he would like coat them with plaster to make them look a little smoother. But a couple of them have escaped that that fate, which is kind of nice, and they even show faint dramaticallyphics.
But I think the holy crap moment for this last week is looking over the footprints and literally just pulling out a random drawer and then starting to look pretty closely at a couple of these blue mountain casts and finding faint and small patches of dramaticallyphics. Now, are they sasquatch dramatic elyphics or a human I don't know. I don't know. I don't know if there is a way to tell
at this moment. I guess the best way to tell is to get another expert, Dave's agan or somebody like that, and say, do these appear on the foot or hand? In some cases, do these appear on the foot in the right pattern for that location on the foot? You know, I think that's going to be the big tell because a couple of the things but I sent him before, and they weren't necessarily a blue mountain cast. I think somebody else's cast. I think I sent that one first.
They said that Daves again said these are dramaticglyphics, but they they're not at a naturally occurring place on the foot. And like his reasoning was that of dramaticallypics, apparently they flow perpendicular to the direction of growth of the foot. So like if a foot gets longer, you would expect the dramatic elypics to go sideways across that part of the foot. You know, that's just how they develop. That's
and that's true of you know, all ape species. I guess, although I did find a trackway from November third, nineteen eighty seven that I think four out of the five tracks have pretty clear dramaticlyphics and dramaticlyphics, I'm leaning towards them probably being sasquatch dramaticallyphics for the most part. As possible that maybe one of the humans accidentally touched the cast or did it on purpose. We've talked about that
a dozen times in the podcast here. People tend to touch things that they're interested in, and then that includes footprints. So it's very possible that a lay person or someone who didn't know any better, which is most of those guys honestly touched the impression with their own hand. Thus,
introducing dramaticallypics into the impression. But if it's naturally occurring on the foot, there are certain places on the foot that those dramaticallyfics should occur, and those places are on the outside, like the lateral side, like the lateral walls of the cast, whether it's the outside or the inside of the foot, or the back of the heel, or the outside of the toes, especially if there's any mushroom effect on the toes or the fat pad on the
bottom of the foot, and anywhere on the planet's surface there's a mushrooming of the fat pad and it expands laterally out into the substrate. Those are excellent places to fine dramatically fix And also, oddly enough, the toe stems between the fat pad, that is, the ball of the toe and where the foot actually begins, so that the toe stem itself is a wonderful place to find dramatical epics.
So if the flow pattern is consistent with the other ape species in those locations, then I think it's safe to say we can be reasonably sure that those dramaticallypics were introduced by the sasquatch foot itself, and it's not just you know, everybody knows about the Dermals cast. There were three prints cast on that day. It was either June sixteenth or seventeenth, that's a little unclear now at nineteen eighty two, and those are the most famous one
because that individual animal is now nicknamed Dermals. But there's there's dematicallypics and a lot of the footprint cast. I mean, I wouldn't be surprised if it's as much as maybe twenty five or thirty percent of these footprint casts have some trace dramatical ethics on them at some point somewhere on the bottom of the foot, on the planner's surface of the foot. So that's the holy crap moment for this week. I'm trying to get out a little bit more out of the paperwork and get back into the
footprint cast a bit. But it is very very impressive, really really cool stuff.
Yeah, a lot of those pictures you sent me were so impressive, and like you mentioned the toe stem, that was one of the clearest places with the clearest ridges that I could see, like immediately. There's several examples that are very clear, but that one in particular, and it's kind of hard to think about how you would introduce human dramaticlyphics into that point because they're not there really in the toe impression.
It's in the toe stem, which would make sense for you know.
Toes that are if they pretty rough, for callous, or if some degree of friction has you know, worn down or degraded the ridges so that they don't transfer a register or the substrate. But it's there in the toe stem. And so I was thinking, like, well, if you made toes with your fingers, how would you only get your dramatic glyphics to impress in the stem, you know, the knuckle basically, and not the fingertip. So I was really impressed by that.
Yeah, it's a very very interesting set. So, like the dramaticallyphics thing has been kind of cool. And you know, I ran across Krantz's file on the dermaticlypics, which is awesome. It has a really nice big pictures, like I don't know if they're eight by tens, they might be that
big or whatever the next common size down is. But there's a lot of black and white photographs, many of which were used in Krantz's book and his paper on dramatical epics that he wrote for I think it was either cryptosology or the Northwest Anthropological Research notes, like all those glossy photographs are in this file, as well as a latex pull of the Wrinkle foot footprint, which is
pretty neat. They just put a thin layer of latex just over the bottom of the foot and then they after about two probably three layers, maybe four layers, they pull it off to record the dramaticallyphics on them, and those are especially interesting to me, as well as the silastic mold of the dramatical or the dermals individual as well.
That was a very important find because unfortunately, of those casts that were made at Elkwallow on June sixteenth or seventeenth, nineteen eighty two, the originals reside in the Smithsonian Institute, so I owned them on but I don't have the cast, so I don't know what that means legally speaking, So like when the stuff was transferred to the museum, the legal paperwork has those casts on it, but I don't
have the actual casts, and I have the molds. I have wonderful first generation copies, but I actually don't have the originals, and I'd be so interested to see how much better the originals are than the first generation copies I have, because generally speaking, it's a significant difference. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back. After these messages, Bo, were you starting to notice thinning hair? Who me, maybe a little
a little hair left or a little thinning hair both. Well, I've got good news for you. Bobo Hymns offers access to prescription treatments for regrowing hair and it's a little three to six months, so you can see a fuller head of hair like Bobo in the old days by fall.
That'd be nice having a fresh fall crop to harvest.
Soweet Hymns offers convenient access to a range of prescription hair loss treatments with ingredients at work, including choose oral medication, serums and sprays.
Yep, doctors trust this stuff. It's been clinically proven.
It's got ingredients like finesteride and oxidil and that stuff can stop hair loss and we goo hair in as little as three to six months.
You can get started from the comfort of your own home, cave, motor home, or wherever you happen to be by filling out an intake form and a medical provider will determine if treatment is right for you. If prescribed, your treatment is sent directly to you for free.
The process is one hundred percent online, which meanss getting started has never been more convenient, and even if sasquatch can do it, it's so easy.
No insurance is needed, and one low price covers everything from treatments to ongoing care. Soll Us treatment options started just thirty five dollars a month. Starts your free online visit today at hymns dot com slash beyond.
That's hims dot com slash beyond for personalized hair loss treatment options.
Hymns dot com slash beyond.
Individual results may vary based on studies of topical and oral monoxidal and finasteride. Prescription required. See website for full details, restrictions and important safety information.
Yeah, it's really really cool. I've just been plowing through slides. I think. I think on the last episode I was lamenting the sheer number of just slides he had. Some were organized, most were not. Many of them just showed like primate stuff for like primate powerpoints. But this is before powerpoints status useless slide carousels and doing a presentation for a class, you know, in that sort of way.
And so I have a lot of random slides about you know, ape anatomy and human evolution and the like, human anatomy and muscle groups and just the anatomy stuff, you know, because he was an anatomus. I'm putting those aside for now and just working hard to document the Bigfoot stuff. And that is super interesting, too, very interesting. Yesterday I ran across slides of the original cast from nineteen eighty two the Gray's Harbor events. Now I have
a couple of the originals. I have one that was cast by a Cliff Crook unfortunate name on both counts first and last night, I have the original cast from that event, and I've seen the original Hereford cast. Dennis Hereford still has three originals in his possession. And I will say that the copies that Krantz made out of those made from those look just like the originals, like just like them. They're fantastic. That those silastic molds are
very very impressive. But Meltrem had another of the casts I think copy didn't find sand that I'd never seen before. I don't know where the original all of that one is but I've found photographs. Okay, let me back up a bit. If you go to Bones Clones or if you go to Skeletons Unlimited, which are two vendors I guess of fossils and skulls and you know, like replicas and stuff from museum quality replicas. It's a great resource if you're interested paleoanthropology or dinosaurs, or you know, ice
age mammals or any of that stuff. I love the place. But they also have the Bossburg cripple foot footprints, and they also have a left and right cast of the nineteen eighty two grays Harbor casts, two of them that doctor Krantz rather cast at the scene. So they actually have four footprint casts as well as the giganipithecust skull and a meganthropist skull by the way too. But they actually have four footprint casts that are from the Krantz
collection for sale. They've licensed it through I guess Krantz's widow or family or whoever whatever the legal thing is over there, right, And I've never seen theriginals of of well, I still haven't seen the originals of the Cripple foot cast, the Bossburg cast, although doctor Meldrum. His mold is of the originals, so I've pretty much as closed as I
can get without seeing the originals. Jeff was given the original or lent the originals or something like that a couple of years ago or ten years ago, and he made copies of them. But Krantz had these nineteen eighty two grades Harbor prints that I've only seen through bones clones. So but last night I ran across when I was scanning these slides, I ran across photographs of the originals of those first time I set my eyes on them.
And to me, that's a treasure, you know, super super cool stuff that I've never seen those, because I've seen the originals of most of the really amazing casts out there. You know, I would venture a guest sixty to eighty percent of the original famous casts that are out there I have either touched or seen the originals of, but I've never seen those, and so stuff like that. When I when I when I ran across to cast's original, even a picture of it that I'd never seen in
my life, Well, that's that's cool. I love it. But also that's that's kind of rare nowadays, you know, because I have access to the original tipmus stuff, and I've a I don't have the original I don't have access to original Patterson stuff, but you know, I've seen pictures of them, so I don't know. So there's always something new, always something new.
I know. It's a lot of work and I'm still jealous.
Feel free to come up you can help. I know.
On Meldon's file is one of the things he found was a really great painting of Bobo and James.
Going Bob Gimlin in a canoe.
Yes, can we share that with with pigeons?
Oh, of course you can. Yeah, that's a great thing to share with the pigeons. They love that.
That Finley guy from England I think painted that. Yeah. I think Monkey might be in the canoe too.
She is, She is in there.
That's so funny.
I can't believe Meldium had a copy of that.
He was a big monkey fan.
He was a huge monkey fan.
Yeah. Yeah.
He was definitely a dog kind of guy. I remember one time he and I were talking about is maybe an email or text, I remember what it was, but we were going back and forth about one of his dogs, and he loved that particular dog because it had one blue eye and one brown eye. And he said it's so great because depending on which angle you see the dog from, it's like you have another one.
Huh, I got two blue eyes and one brown eye.
Oh, I make sure I don't see that angle.
How epic would it be if you found like a receipt for that painting in motors files, Like he'd either purchase that or commission it, commissioned it.
He just had like a photo of it, right, Like, no, he didn't have a copy of it, right.
Yeah, I say it was like a print of it.
That's so funny, cool stuff.
Yeah, looking forward to getting my wrapping my head around what's actually there. So when somebody says, well what about this, I go, oh, yeah, yeah, let me get you some resources on that. You know, let me, let me show you the original file, let me show you let me played this recording of you know so and so talking about that right after it happened. You know, there's a lot of that stuff. I haven't even started the audio files yet. Holy smokes.
How much tapes? How much? What is it? Like? It's all cassette tape mostly right.
Well, there's a lot of cassette tapes. There are a lot of videotapes, VHS tapes, and a lot of like things taped off the television and things like that too. But I know he has a couple of VHS tapes of like of interviews with people. I know one in particular, he visited West summerlind one time and he put the his video recorder on the on the table, and you know, Wes was like, what's that for? So well, do you
mind if I recorded? It's one of these, no problem, And then West started talking and you know, once Wescott going, he just forgot about the camera.
You know.
So he has like two hours of West Summerland telling tales about sasquatch reports.
I want to see that, Yeah, so I have.
I want to see it too. I haven't. I haven't even I haven't even scratched the service on that. And then he has things he has. He had a bunch of micro because sets and then those are vance orchards almost certainly Van's orchards with various people. It was at art Snow. Maybe it's not art, it's something Snow.
It's like art Snow. Yeah.
The Forest Service guy that was with Paul Freeman in
the in the watershed when he'sound tracks there. He has a bunch of interviews and I can't wait to get into that, because I did find some a letter written back and forth between doctor Meldrim and Vance Orchard, and Vance Orchard gave him those cassettes, you know, and and doctor Meldrim's response was, it was so helpful to listen to the the actual person this happened to, just telling it as it happened, like a narrative, instead of reading a newspaper article or some report about it.
Yeah, I got I got a thing coming up. Well, maybe possible to shoot this guy I've known since he's a little kid.
He's a friend's kid, and.
It's probably like thirty now, no, he's probably thirty three, thirty four.
But he's he's making a movie.
It's like, you know, full big budget, that kind of a documentary kind of deal. And he's gonna let his life for one year be determined by rolling dice. Every major question or decision that comes up, or even just any any decision, he rolls the dice.
I don't know.
I think there's three dice, three die and the whole thing starts day one starts, and humble like he could take him around the world. He doesn't know where it could take him anywhere. But one of the first options that he has to choose, and this is going to set the course of the rest of the year, is he's going to roll the dice. And there's possibility for each one of these things to go do, and one of them is go look for Bigfoot with Bobo.
Oh you gonna let that happen?
Yeah, yeah, he's he's I've done him forever and his you know families. You know, I've done the friends of
the Fire forever. So at first I was like, oh man, and then I was like, yeah, you know, let's do it, because you know, it's like it's just one of those real shoot quick shoot things will be out for like afternoon evening, like for one one night, like they'll stay out there, but it could be like it's you know, like a week and a half or something like so it could be like totally storming and like just that night it's just bunking like heavy winds and rain, you know or whatever, like.
You can just get rained.
There's you know, a good chance we can get rained out or stormed out. So it's like, God, I hate doing that, Like there's not much chance to success. Like there's you know, going for one night, not much happens usually, you know, but if you can get someone out for like three four nights or a week or something, you know, it's so much more likely you're going to get some
vocals or something or some knocks. And so it's it's just kind of like it's just I hate doing those like those, you know, just a little quick because it's it's, uh, it just makes it look like, oh, like.
They're nothing ever happens. You know, this will be this will be pretty interesting.
So I guess I got a one and six chance of having that happen, but I won't know until the day it happens, because it's just it's just all spontaneous.
Oh how the tables have turned. You're a get it.
Welcome to our world.
I told him, I get it, no problem.
Just yesterday I was wearing my my my D and D shirt has said that the dice giveth and the dice taketh away. Now you're going to be subjected to those same rules of chance.
Yeah, I thought that was going to elicit a nerd from Bobo.
Mister chance.
That's pretty classical.
I mean like that's that's a that'd be pretty exciting way to start, you like, live a year of your life like that.
Yeah, if you had a year to spare. But he's young.
Yeah, because some of the stuff, like some of the stuff like it's like options yes to like well, it's not just he has options planned out, but the most important one is the first one, you know, because it goes from there. But uh yeah, I mean it's just I think like one of them is like learn a surf and bali and like there's no one like go to Russia for something, or you know, go to Australia, go to Like He's like, there's all these missions that can come off of it.
Well, if you do that, we'll get him on the podcast. He might make a good guess.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right back after these messages. You know, I just had a visit from a friend of mine. He was the manager of the fishing tackle store that I used to work at down in Long Beach, Fisherman's Hardware.
Yeah.
Yeah, Don is kind of living the van life right now, like divorce and whatever else. And he's got grandkids, and stuff, and he says, screw it, man, screw the man. And he's just become like a nomadic van life kind of guy. And he spends a lot of time on the PCT, the Pacific Crest Trail a lot, you know, that's kind of the way. That's what he loves now more than anything, is hiking around. He's like sixty three. He's living a great life, something that he missed out on perhaps when
he was young. I don't know if missed out is the right word. But he's living his best life right now and he's just killing it, loving it. He just spent a couple of nights with us here cruising through town. And he's a pretty awesome van. It has orange flames on the side. It's pretty pretty sweet. You would love it. It screams you in a lot of ways. But we were having dinner the other night and I asked him, just kind of kind of random, I said, dude, you're
out in the PCT. All that you're out there alone with you and your dog and stuff like that. I mean, you ever hear weird thing like Knox or anything like that. He goes, oh, yeah, I hear. Also, I just file those under the Unknown Noises Department. You know, it's because the forest is full of weird unknown noises. And I said, yeah, I know, I get it.
Yeah.
Do you ever hear like a it sounds like a big dude yelling in the woods or something And he goes, no, nothing like that. I've heard ls and howls and things like that. Though, of course I go, okay, well here's one for you. You ever hear a car door slam where you're darn sure there's no cars? And his eyes get real big, is yes, what is that about? I go, well, I think it's these things. He goes, I have heard that. I totally have heard that. He started going off about,
you know, these various incidents and things like that. But I thought that was pretty interesting that someone who has no association with the big Foot thing has heard those same sort of things and like the John Murror Wilderness of the Southern Sierras and places like that.
Yeah, I've talked to a lot of like people that said. And I was like, how about a car door signing? There's no way.
He's like, like, I've had a couple of going like.
I was wondering, hocket here, like because the parking area was like three miles away, and I'm like, how can I hear that door sound?
Like it's just right here?
And He's like, you know, I figured out how to be like atmospheric and wind direction, and but I just could not figure out how I was hearing a couple of car doors slam three miles from the trailhead.
That was perplexing to him as well. And then he's heard those like the murmurs, like like, what I know no one's camping near me. Why do I hear people talking? What are they saying? I can't Yeah, that kind of stuff, you know, which you know, maybe there is somebody camping nearby. I don't really know, I guess. But still he's heard all the classic noises and he knows nothing about the big Foot thing really except for what he's gotten from me. And when I was in my twenties, you know, when
I were hanging out together. But I thought that was interesting And what are you bringing up?
Yeah, I've heard that sound a few times and it's always jarring.
What do you think of the museum?
Oh?
He loved it. He thought it was great and like most people who you know, come in for the first time, he thought it was better than he expected.
See, I know, Bobo's met a lot of your friends from like, you know, the the normy days.
Although I know you are always, in your words, always a weird guy.
But there's no one of your friends I've met that aren't sasquatch people, you know. So it is interesting to when you get that experience of like how normal people
view it. Like we just went and hung out with some of Emily's friends from high school that moved to the area here, and they had a ton of questions and we had a great conversation, and I remember like, oh, yeah, I love talking to people who don't know anything about the subject, you know, because they have such genuine questions rather than as you know, sometimes sometimes when you talk to people who know about the subject, you get deep
on the minute show and it's really fun. And then sometimes it's just like, well, why don't you think that they're interdimensionally you know, And it's just like you both believe in the reality of the subject, but you disagree on its origins or causes. So it's nice to talk to normies about sasquatch every once in a while.
It's refreshing, I guess, you know, of course. That's what it's like working at the shop, though, like every day, every day somebody comes in that, you know, doesn't know. I mean, ninety five percent, ninety nine percent of our clientele, ninety five i'd say of our clientele are just what I call civilians. You know, they just don't know anything
about it. They maybe watch the shows or something like that, or'll read a news item if it crosses their news feed or something, but they don't know anything about the subject really. So it's a rare bird that comes in that starts like spitting truce about Bigfoot, you know, and when they do, they stand out and we will usually end up hanging out or having a beer or something like that. That's how I met Kelly Lemieux. You know, cherry bass player comes an. He's spitting stuff about Kranz
and Meldrum and stuff. I go, oh, dude, you seem to know something. He goes, dude, I can teach a class on this. It's like, oh, let me school you for a little bit. And then I put him in his place and now we're good friends. They should be back soon. He's been on tour. I'm going to take him big Foot in November when he gets back.
I guess you guys probably get that a lot because you're on this big TV show with a lot of exposure, and so all sorts of normal people who don't follow the subject have been exposed to that show. But for me, like, I've always been such a background character that it's like only like the squatchiest of squatchers have any idea that I exist, you know what I mean. So usually I'm speaking to other squatters and not normies. So it was nice to sit down and chat with normies about the whole subject.
It's a change of pace and it's always welcome because most of my talking to bigfooters, as you guys, I don't try to. I don't get out much, you know. I get to hang out Larry tomorrow, but it's mostly you guys that I talked to about bigfoot stuff, so I get more than my fair fix.
All my friends, for the most part, are people who have been doing this a lot longer than me and know a lot more than me.
You know.
I always want to be, you know, the weak link in the room, like I'm here to learn, you know.
And it's funny.
We had one guest on who is an expert in a different subject matter, but it's a great student of the sasquatch phenomenon.
And I love this guy.
I don't mean this disparagingly, but after we had him on, he called me because we hang out and talk a lot, and he was like, no, I'm really surprised Cliff and Bobo didn't ask me about like sasquatch stuff. And I was like, dude, what are you going to tell Cliff and Bobo about the sasquatch that they don't already know? And he was like, fairpoint, fair point, this guest is, you know, not someone who's in the field a lot.
Like he's a very well read student of the subject, but it's not like he's been engaged in the field and interfacing with witnesses and evidence and you know, like pushing the envelope, so to speak, in the field and that kind of thing. So it made sense that we talked about his main area of expertise. But I just thought it was funny because that was my responses. I was like, dude, what are you going to tell Cliff and Bobo man that he was like.
You're right.
I had a similar conversation. I guess the other day in the shop, somebody was asking me if I had seen this certain thing on television or whatever like that, and I just got no, No, I don't watch Bigfoot TV. What am I going to learn from big Foot TV? Man? And I prefaced it though, to say, like this may sound really arrogant, but like, what am I going to learn from Bigfoot TV? You know, I learned about TV
through Bigfoot and that was enough for me. But I'm not going to learn about Bigfoot through TV because if anything extraordinary or important is a better word, if anything important happens, I'm going to hear about it through other means. You know, I'm not going to learn about it through the History Channel or you know, Travel channel or what Discovery or something.
Speaking of Witch, that video sent last night, you said, you know that guy proved.
Yeah, And the guy that sent that to me took a closer look and he's pretty sure it's a possum now, by the way.
Oh really throwing down branches and stuff.
Throwing down branches. Yeah, it's just the dark figure in the ice shine and the trees and stuff, the trees.
Getting shicked really hard.
You might've seen a different video.
This one was just like a night vision footage, and there's one tree that grows out sort of at an angle, almost like a forty five degree angle at points, and then there's this black blob that kind of rises up. You could see how someone would interpret that as like the top of a head, like a head peeking up and over and then it just drops back down. But it also does have that look of like a small critter starting to climb up and over and then letting itself back down.
Is it the one where he's like straight outside his house?
And because I just saw the picture of the video, didn't actually play.
It, No, I know which one you're talking about. That's a totally different video.
Oh okay, okay, I thought yeah, because I didn't actually I didn't think get the video of the play on a two week a signal. But I just saw like the frame you know, freeze stream with the first frame whatever, and I thought, oh, it's that video.
What do you think of that one?
Are the ones up and the tree of the guys out there and he's like, I'm going back on the porch.
Yeah, that one's pretty strange. Quite a few people have sent that to me, but I don't know. It's so hard to tell with all that social media stuff because it's posted on so many different sites and every site claims to be the guy who filmed it, every different channel. It's one of those things like there's so many of those viral TikTok things or YouTube shorts or Instagram reels.
You know a lot of them are sound only, and they use the same sound effects, so it's like the same scream and the same howl in the background with like different you know, visual images different. It's like someone goes out and films the woods and then they overdub that sound effect into it. And I just get so inundated with that stuff, not only from other researchers or sasquash enthusiasts or like Normis will send me that stuff. But then you know a lot of our listeners are like, hey,
have you guys seen this? And so there's at this point, there's got to be many hundreds of those, if not like thousands out there. And a friend of mine messaged me yesterday and he was like, are we just at the point where we have to ignore this stuff? And I was like, yeah, I think so until there's like something really compelling or it's someone really credible. I'm like, to me, it's just unknowable. Like half the time people
are like, what do you think about this? I'm like, I have no idea, man, I don't know the backstory. I don't know who recorded it, I don't know who posted it, like, and I don't think I can know if you were to try, I'm not going to try to salute this out. And even if you did, like great, it's just another howl in the dark or a branch breaking in the distance, Like, so.
What now with that background in context? You just can't say much about anything nowadays, unless unless it's of such poor quality it couldn't be AI, right.
See, that's the thing that one of the things the Normy's asked, and a lot of people ask this question. We've seen it from listeners. But people say, like, well,
with AI, our pictures to mean anything. And so I think that there's a way that they would like if you uploaded the raw video, whether it's from your smartphone or a DSLR camera or some kind of you know, professional grade camera photo or video, you could upload the raw file and put it on something like the blockchain, you know, where it's identifiable to you and anyone would be able to see that it is the raw file, and then there will be a whole other debate like
there is in the Patterson footage, Like no one debates that if the Patterson footage is CGI or AI, because none of that existed. So then the debate is like, this is a real film, but what's it? A film of an animal or a guy in a suit. And the same will be true with photos and videos, even if you can authenticate that they are legitimate, it'll be like, Okay, well we know that's not AI, but what is it of? Is it a mock up or a maquette or a suit or a statue.
Or whatever the case may be.
I think that for me, at least for me in whatever position I find myself in the Bigfoot world at this moment, the best defense against that is just trying
to retain my brand of honesty. I guess, for lack of a better term, you know, I think that if I came back with a video that was even half as good as the Patterson Gimlin film, a lot of people, and frankly a lot of skeptics, I believe, would probably come to my defense and say that I was hoaxed or something, because they certainly wouldn't believe still that I don't think anything's going to change that short of a body.
But I don't I even you know, I could. I'm not gonna throw names around anything, but I can think of a couple pretty high profile skeptics that would not accuse me of hoaxing anything, you know. I would like to think that. Maybe I'm wrong though, maybe I'm overestimating the humanity of that world. I don't know, but I think that retaining a good reputation of honesty and you know, trustworthiness, I suppose, might be the best defense one has nowadays.
But of course, honestly, the good films are probably just going to come from the public and not bigfoot researcher who's invested their life, you know. So I don't know. I think beyond the XIF information and all the metadata and all that sort of stuff, that that might be one's best defense nowadays. It's like, keep your nose clean and always tell the truth, even if it's ugly, and then you'll probably earn a reputation hopefully that reflects that.
Yeah, and be just as transparent as possible with all the facts, and you know, a really solid follow up, like in the case of Bart Katino's thermal footage. You know, it was the strength of their follow up investigation that swayed a skeptic like Phil Polling. And there's you know, great coverage of that in one of those recent installments of Eli Watson's Mountains of Mystery series on small town monsters.
I'll link that in the show notes. But you know, on its own, that thermal footage, you know, the figures are far away, they're mostly obscured. It's not the highest resolution thermal I remember, there were some issues going on with that. I think it was the H three twenty four that Bart was using. But it was the strength and the thoroughness of that follow up investigation and everything they filmed and measured, like to the inth degree where
it's almost like overkilled. But that alone goes to show you that, like, Nope, there's something really compelling going on there, compelling enough to sway someone who was previously highly skeptical. And I think you would do a great job of doing that sort of a follow up investigation or a follow up recreation all the above, you know, I think that would go a long way too.
Yeah, I would be. I'd be thrilled to do a follow up on something I got. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back after these messages.
When I was thinking about mockups, there's a few out there that are definitely like still figures, and there's still images, you know, they're not obviously like movies or videos. But I always thought the best looking one was that mockup that was that Cliff Crook put out into the world. We don't know who made it, but they what was
those called the Wild Creak photos. Yeah, yeah, and you know, there's there's actually like fourteen of those out there, and I think I have like eight or ten or twelve.
I've got quite a few of them.
But it's very clearly like a roughly eighteen inch tall figure posed, you know, like a little statuette or something, but it has hair affixed to it. But it's really cool looking. Like I always thought that was the coolest of all the fakes because it is really high detail, and you know, that looks like still from a movie or something.
That a little thing was made was used for another fake back in the day. One of those documentaries probably in the nineties or something, and I couldn't begin to tell you what it was called. They have a video montage, perhaps a better term up a bunch of photographs, supposed photographs, or maybe even fakes of sasquatches. I remember one of them was very a ring like, very orange and a ring like. But there was that same little statuette was in that montage from a different angle.
Yep, that's the A and E Ancient Mysteries special.
There you go.
Yeah, but I'll post those pictures for the pigeons too, because that was such a cool little mock up. And you know, there was this sort of loophole in the story like, oh, hey, someone gave me these, someone who worked for the for service. I never said I took these, and that may very well be true. I don't know, but you know, something like that. If you had great
still photos, that would be the question. Then if people go, okay, well, you know again, if you uploaded the raw files and anyone can download them and see like, these are the raw camera files, they are unaltered, they're not digitally generated, then the question would be like, well, what is it in the photograph? It's a real photograph, but what is it of sort of like the Jacob's photos or as I was thinking of the Dwayne Freeman photos that Paul's
son Dwayne got. They're credited to Paul Freeman, but he didn't take those. Dwayne got those while they were hunting. There's about what four of them, I think, or three or four of them, and they're actually really good photographs, still photographs of a sasquatch, And because there are blue mountain evidence, people don't think they're real. But Paul didn't see the animal. He didn't even see the thing that day. There's audio recordings of him telling the story of what
actually happened that day. Yeah, And of course I've recently made contact with Dwayne and I'm looking forward to having a conversation with him about those particular pieces of footage there that those films, not not the films, but the photographs, because I think there's a lot to learn in those. I mean, they're very, very.
Interesting, and they do look especially the ones where the things walking away, it looks a lot like the Patterson Gimlin film. Man, it really really does. Yeah, I don't know. I think those are fascinating pictures and likely real, likely real people think, oh, Paul Framan, he hopes is was. He was hundreds is like one hundred and fifty two hundred yards away at that time. He didn't even see the animal. It walked right by Dwayne, and he's the
guy they got those pictures. Really interesting things.
Yeah, it looks a lot lankier in those side views.
That's an optical illusion. There are plants in the way, there are bushes obscuring part of the body.
Oh, interesting, because I've only seen those with you, like, I don't I don't have those, but I have seen, you know, the couple that were disseminated in like newspapers at the time, and I think they wound up in a few books, and a few of them are online, so I'll link to those for the pigeons as well.
I'll put those in a patrioch.
All the photos are up there that are available, or I'll get them on the web because i've uh, Mike sent me, Michael sent me like two of them a long time ago.
Yeah, I think there's only two that I've ever seen online. But there are others from that event, you know, from that film reel or.
Whatever, you know.
Some of those I do recall seeing, like it's walking sort of like left to right. It appears and it looks lankier. Then it's not as but it's almost like you have Patterson, the Patterson creatures semi turned towards the camera, so you're seeing some of that breadth, like shoulder to
shoulder breadth across the chest. This thing was like the shoulder straightforward almost like you know, it was moving in a direction it's like parallel to the camera lens, so not coming at the camera, but straight left right.
And I was like, oh, that's that's interesting.
It looks a bit lankier than I would have expected or guessed or something, which is how people describe like what I would think would be subadults.
Give me a minute, I'll send it to you.
It would be.
Great for you to get that story firsthand. And how far was that from like deduct or some of the other famous spots.
It was on the other side of the watershed. Who's over on Biscuit Ridge?
Is that like several miles? Many miles?
Oh, I don't know, five miles, gotcha? Maybe I don't. I don't know how why the watershed is, So that's a good question. Okay. I found a hold on sick. I'll just text them to you guys if that works.
Yes, sir, that's the one.
I uh yeah, that's the one that was published in newspapers and is in a few books and is on the internet.
Here's probably the one that you're talking about that's lanky. That's not the one that has an optical illusion though that was just a weird position for it to be in.
We haven't seen this one, so yeah, that's the one that to me looks like the way that people describe a subadult. I mean, you can see how much the head is like below how much of the head is below the shoulders.
There sounds like a dude to be kind.
Of yeah, but look look where the shoulders sort of terminate, like near the brow ridge, where you know the eyes would be.
Yeah.
See, I mean that would be hard for a person to get in that position.
No, And I just found a map. I found this really nice topo map that Meldrum pinpointed where these pictures were taken and also pinpointed where the original June tenth, nineteen eighty two encounter was. And I was a little bit off on the eighty two encounter. I thought that was like maybe half a mile away or a mile away. But it turns out that I was, I can get there apparently it's unless things have changed since eighty two
or whenever. It's not technically in the watershed, so I can actually get to the spot.
Crazy.
Yeah, and that one of the kind of PG posed there A lot of the body is obscured by brush.
See, I had not seen that one. The one I was thinking of when I said it's like side on with the lens, is that the one decent words, You can see that the shoulders relative to the position of the head, like the shoulders are like even with the brow ridge almost.
Yeah, I don't have a real big problem with that one, you know. I mean, that's that's the least convincing one there, I think, except for maybe the we're a lot of the body's obscured. But that that early one. Man, that that one looks just amazing to me. That looks very very good.
This is strange photo. Yeah, it was.
It was a film, like I'm pretty sure right, it was just it was camera film. Yeah, so they should be like, can't they clear it up more like a professional cleaning up really good?
I don't know. I'm hoping that the negatives are around here somewhere. I don't know if Michael has them or not, but Michael, hopefully Michael has the negatives of these and you can bring them out because we're going to do an event with Michael in December.
Oh thanks for something close cool.
Yeah, Yeah, they're neat. They're neat and of course the Freeman names on it, so they got to be fake supposedly, right.
Like I said, I'll link to the ones that are already online for the pigeons there so they can check those out.
Yeah.
And of course, and in Michael's book, one of the QR codes of these pictures are in Michael's book. By the way, in the Freeman Files by Michael Freeman, there's a QR code of Paul Freeman telling the story of that day how these pictures came about.
Oh, I'll have to go back and listen to that because I haven't listened to all the audio clips.
Yeah, super interesting. I'll tell you a man, the Blue Mountain. The Blue Mountains have a bigger story to tell, much bigger story than what people know about.
Maybe I should endeavor if you if you need a hand, because I've never been out there. I've driven through on what's the interstate that's kind of near there, that passed through there. That's my total exposure to the Blues. So maybe I can carve out some time, and if you're heading out there to do stuff and need a hand, I will volunteer because I'd love to see it and love.
To see those places. But it would just be great to be out there.
Oh, the Blues are great and I found tracks both times I went in the last two years. Yeah, the ground out there, and that's not the thing that people don't appreciate about the Blues, the substrate. There's a lot of bear dirt around. You know, there's a lot of you know, stuff and stuff as well, don't get me wrong, but there's a lot of bear dirt in that area. And that dirt what is the word is a geologic term.
It's like niece or something like that. LUs l oess. Okay, there you go, luss glacial luss glacial runoff that is kind of angular, so it holds together really well. Like the tracks I found, like really nice tracks, I think, and I set you pictures. I can always send you more if you want to post it for people. But the track I found one of the springs up there this past July or August. When I was this past year,
it was old. It had to be three four weeks old or more a month and a half old or something. It was quite old, but it still held enough of a shape together. You could see the toes, you could see the mid tartal pressure ridge, you could see how the heel came at a different angle. And it was a very very cool track. But it's a tribute to the soil which most people, and especially the Scofticks do not appreciate, that this soil that you have in the
Blue Mountains holds tracks really well. Another great example is the nineteen ninety one Mill Creek trackway. You know, those tracks were laid sometime in the first half of January. They were discovered by lay people, Paul and his wife, I think Nancy, if I remember. I think that was
Paul's wife's name. They were having breakfast in a little greasy spoon somewhere in Walla, Walla, and they heard somebody at the next table talking about bear tracks that they had found out in the on Biscuit Ridge five points area now by Mill Creek. In there, Coyote Grove and all that area, all the same area, same ridge basically, and Paul thought that was really weird because it was January and there's snow on the ground and what are
bears doing out now? That's weird. So he called West Summerlin and they went and I think checked it out. I think West was there when they for I'll find out more. That's what Michael's gonna be doing a presentation at the NABC in early December. I haven't announced it yet, the date or anything like that. No tickets have gone on sale or anything. But he's going to be doing the presentation, I believe, on the nineteen ninety one track. So I'll be learning a lot more through Michael and
his experience through them. But when they got out there, they weren't bear tracks at all. They were sasquash tracks, and it was one of the best track ways ever. I mean a guy named Greg May who was this outdoor survival dude who taught up at Pullman with Krantz. He tracked this thing six miles six to eight miles into the woods uphill and they say Paul Freeman hoaxed it. It was crazy because Paul Freeman was walking with a pain at that point in his life. He couldn't go
more than like thirty yards from the truck. But yet he's the guy that please. Is so ridiculous. Anyway, those tracks were laid down sometime in the first half of January. But I have a track that was cast from that same trackway. I have a cast from that same trackway that was cast in early February. The point being the ground in the Blues holds the impression really, really well and for a very long time. Yeah, which is a
point completely lost on the skeptics. You know, the tracks there look so good because so much of the percentage of the ground. I guess such a just square yardage of ground is conducive to taking tracks, and they stay there for a long long time.
I'd love to see it.
So if you need a strong back and a weak mind, I'll come out there.
Well, I got half of that covered already. Man, you can carry stuff for me, That's what I'm saying. Well, you just tell me when you're coming and we'll make a trip out of it. It's great, you'll love it. We'll find well. I found wolf tracks last three times as I've gone. Bear tracks are plentiful. There's a ton of deer and elkin there. The there's asquatches. It's a great area and it's ridiculous.
Yeah, I would love to see that.
I too.
Have you not been to the Blues Pops, I've been to the Blues besides when we filmed there.
Yeah, I've been there one other time. Nice.
Yeah, it's amazing there. I love it there, and it's only four hours four and a half hours for me.
I mean I almost moved there with Karta, like right on the edge of there, but it was two in the plains.
Yeah, Walla Walla is. I mean, I know some good people who live there, but I don't think i'd want to live in Walla Walla because of the lack of you know, trees and.
Dude, there was no tree. It was like where we would be living there. We were like eight miles from trees or something. Yeah.
And as much as I love some of the people there, yeah, I have good friends who live there, you know, dar Addington, Reggie Bird, like, there's a bunch of rad people who live out there. Just love them the bits, you know, the Summerland family is still out there and you know,
but I don't know, it's not worth it. Because I like to be alone, first of all, and I like to be alone in the woods, and they're in the woods up there in the mountains are not accessible very often, you know, Like for you can't get the d Duck Springs and on a good year you can get there towards the end of June, and then it shuts down again in October. That's not enough for me.
So we're going to discuss some articles.
Should we put a bow on this one? And then there are still some overflow Patreon questions and so we can keep chatting there and then tackle some of those in that way, clear out the Patreon inbox.
Sure. Yeah, well, folks, you either love this episode or hate it. We'll see.
Well, we have a love hate relationship. I think I think all of our listeners have a love hate relationship with us.
Yeah, but thanks for tuning in either way, we appreciate it. If you liked it, share your thoughts, give us five stars, review and something saying something nice and until next week, y'all keep it Squatchy.
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes. Subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle, and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag Bigfoot and Beyond