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The Greatest One yesterday and listening watching lim always keep it squatching. And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Hello Cliff, Hello, Bobo. How you doing?
Man? Good? How's gonna do?
It's going all right? I'm tired. I'm tired, but generally good, generally good. And Matt, you're on the call, aren't you. I'm here, very good, glad you're here as well. Yeah, Bobs, I'm pretty tired. Just got back from cryptid Con. Great gig. Of course everybody was asking where you are? Oh and Bobo. That just I got to fulfill my obligation. You know, I was at cryptid Con for the last five days.
Matt Prue was there, a great event. We'll talk about that for a while, kind of catch up on how things are going.
But I got to.
Fulfill my obligation about thirty thirty five people that you don't know, may or may not remember, want me to say hi to you for them specifically.
Consider it done and tell them hello for me back.
There you go, everybody who I said that, all you people who said out of Bobo for me, I just did. There's proof right there, and of course Bobo remembers each and every one of you individually.
I also have a T shirt for you, Bobo from a fan and a listener are a good friend fan Mike Madden. Oh yeah, cool, So we got to figure out how to get this T shirt your way.
You just have a p O box.
Well, I'm hoping I'll be seeing him in a month and a half, so we'll see. We won't we won't promise anything for the listeners yet, but that sure would be nice.
Oh yeah, that's right.
Oh yeah, any chance you're coming up to Squatch Fest, man, I mean you can come. You can help me in my booth.
January.
Oh, it's like the last weekend in January. We have an announce at or anything. But I don't care if Matt puts it in the podcast here, but we're planning on Matt Prut coming down and doing an event at the Music the Thursday before. I'll open that up for museum members first, and if there are any tickets left, I'll open it up for podcast members afterwards, and then that'd be Thursday night and then Friday we'll I'll skip up the squatch fest. So it'd be great to have you in tow awesome.
Yeah, I wanted to get up there next week. I got some bad news the other night. Laverne, my friend from Quinnall Drive, the oly woman, that maybe all the info and squatches she passed away.
Oh no, yeah, oh no, I'm sorry to hear that.
Yeah, they're having services in a couple of weeks. Yas bomb. But I couldn't sleep that it too well. But I was like thinking about because she lived with her great grand her granddaughter and son in law or her grandson in law has eight kids and they lived together there in Queets and the I never really get out too
much info w I don't. I just kind of talk about her vaguely, you know, like yeah, because I don't want people go because when I kind of talked about her a lot at first, she had some people drop in like just un announced, like people she never met. There were big fingers her be talking about her and just SHI talked to her, and she wasn't into it. So I was always pretty vague, but I think she was.
I think she was eighty two eighty three something. But those kids, I was thinking, like they might not realize it now when they get over, it'll be like they had a you know, direct link to the old school
because she was, you know, she grew up. She's like that, you know, like the last of that generation I could, you know, like taking the boarding schools and grew up pretty traditionally, you like, you know, at the end up like during World War two, you know, like there was not much out there, like they didn't have electricity and stuff like that. So she passed on a lot of knowledge with the great grandkids.
Yeah, well, shoot, man, that that sucks, man, But you know, hopefully she's on the bigger and better things, you know.
Oh, for sure, she's definitely going where the good people go. Yeah, she was. She was a special lady for sure. Yeah.
I met her once when you you and I were up there for something or other and I met her. I remember, just briefly said hello to her and shook her hand or something like that, if I remember right, and said that I heard a lot of good things about her, But you have to spend some real quality time with her. So that's really neat that you had an opportunity to learn like from the source about bigfoots and some of the cultural items that they have up there.
I've said it before, but her husband's family was like the family the Sasquatch family for the tribe up there, Like they're the ones that held the traditional knowledge for the tribe, like all the gathered info. Like they had like you know, salmon people, people that knew everything about salmon, and like when they were young, they treat them like everything about deer or elk or bear whatever, you know,
where the honey was or whatever. It was. Like they had certain families that you know, really focused on like you know, all the all the guys that aren't hunting and tracking and fishing and like they all learned that, but there's like certain things they would concentrate on, like this is our family definitely is like this is what
we're getting master. Yeah, she she had a lot of info, and she was really shy and she kind of I didn't really realize it at the time, but she you know, she get out there in the Reds and Little Seene village her whole life. She was pretty uncomfortble get around like whiteoplesial people with like credentials like other credentials standards like Meldrum and John Bindernagal and she just clammed up.
You know, she was really shy, and she's why do they want to talk to me that, you know they were fancy, you know, professors, And I'm like, no, they want to know what you know on this subject. They want to they want to know it. She I tried to get her to talk about you just usually kind of clam up a little bit.
It's unfortunate that we've lost her, of course, and you're lucky to have known her, as as is true of all great people who pass. Of course. I guess we just keep her in our thoughts through some way. I'm not sure what to do about that, except for be thankful, I suppose, instead of grieving, perhaps be thankful for the role she played in your life. And Bob correct me if I'm wrong, But isn't she the one that basically told you exactly where and when the ghost someplace to see a SaaS Quah?
And she was right, yep, the second BFR expedition back in August two thousand and four. She told me because I heard about her from for a couple of years. Then I finally I was talking to someone of the trading posts there as her grandson and you and I was saying like, yeah, you know, looking for information. I want to talk to me when I can, like the elders, you know. And after a couple of years of stop and bothering and you know, talking to the people, he got I gave him ten bucks and you let me
go talk to his grandma. That's when I met her, and and it was you know, it was kind of a little awkward at first because she was real, real shy, and I wouldn't say much, but I just every time I get like, uh, when I was up there, i'd stop buy him, like you know, just you know trudial,
like especially among their culture. You don't show up at the handy, you know, you ship with like you know, like angel food cake or a box of cookies or a thing, you know, something you know, share good to the kids and everything, like give him a treat or something. And so then she started talking more and more than
after I was up there a couple of years. I went there one time and she just really like really opened up and started telling me all kinds of stuff and it was like my mind was blown and everything she toltally worked out and then so we were there in two thousand and four. She goes, if you really want to see one, go at three o'clock in the morning and go to the trading post and walk south on the one on one They crossed the road there. If you walk up and down that road between three and
five am, you will see them. And we didn't. We did. We got there at three, like three am on the dot part, started walking up the one o one, pitch black. We had night vision on the Colonel, the old Green Break colonel, the Colonel, the d colonel, you know, because three years up to nine to eleven, so they had new night vision gear and so he had he was the he ran the southeast quadrant for Washington State Reservists for Green Braves, so he was had keys to like
the supply of rooms and whatever. And so we brought like fifteen pairs of night vision goggles with them, like their Gen two that nowadays they'd suck, but for us back then they were good and we had them on. They didn't record though. We were walking up the road and I see this thing on the left side of the road. We're really walking for about twenty minutes for about a mile into the walk and I see something big on the side of road and I stopped walking,
and the other guys kept walking. I started walking again. I'm looking, there's one right there. And I was like, god, I don't want to I want to make sure it steps out again further into the road so that I don't know, like I just saw something that no one else sees it. You know, I see like a jackass. I go, you guys, see that up there on the road on the left. And also they're like, oh my god. I also just feel like the oh shit, you know,
like all that's like, oh my god. And it walked to three strips across the road, walked to the fog line on the upper side of the one O one, turned and faced us and just blowed up like it was. It stood right next to this, well not right next to it. It was really close within fifteen feet of a traffic sign was it said fifty five and had the curvy swerved little diamond sign below it. It walked right.
We all saw, well, dude, here's the thing. The only car that went by that whole two hours we were out there, The only car that went by came by exactly from the south heading north towards us. This thing was on the almost to the top of the hill, and then it dropped down to the other side on the south side. We were on the north side, so this car coming from the south heading north, its lights
also started brightening up. And then last thing we saw it was standing next to the sign, and then it got so bright like it blew our night vision out. And the last thing I saw was it turned and start to walk head like it was just as you know, getting too bright. It turned and stood up the road, but it stood there for about ten seconds, just like flex like it's arms out like ready to look like someone wanted to fight, like fist clenched. Just blowed up.
It wasn't like super super huge while like some of the other ones I saw, but I mean it was big, dude. It was. It was, you know, probably three and a half foot across the shoulders. It wasn't like one of those like five foot across the shoulder looking ones. But it was big. And it walked right next to the son of sign was nine one or nine four somewhere in there, and it walked by that We all agreed
it was. That's how like its head went right even with that from our angle, and so it was about a nine footer and then it was like, oh my god, like that was insane. And you know, that was like the first night, you know, we're there. Twenty minutes into the lock. I was like this is going to go and like this is not going to stop. And we had multiple class as on that trip, and you and I, well that's where you and I went. We kind of were trespassing camping around out there.
Yeah, you know, not that I was on that same trip though, But to be fair, like back then at the time, I was naive and I didn't really didn't actually realize for quite a while that I was trespassing. So just there's almost nobody out there. So when I was out there and I didn't see anybody, didn't you know then that it doesn't occur to you that you're trespassing, And of course you're trusted seeing on Native land, you know,
on the reservation. But once I learned that, like, oh I'm not supposed to be there, I kind of didn't know that, you know, I was kind of naive back in the day. I stopped going there, you know, out of respect, of course, unless I had somebody with me, you know, from the tribe or had permission and like to say, you know, no, just drop my name. It's cool if if somebody asks you, everybody knows me like that kind of stuff.
Yeah, I got I got permission later on from tribal council guys like okay, you can go there, just don't you know, don't you know, be respectful like that kind of stuff. Right right, That was a crazy trick because that's where Tracy found those miniature like four We were tracking these two adult bigfoots. I think it was fifteen and thirteen inch tracks or twelve and twelve and a
half inch tracks stuff like that. There were you know, like six inches across the ball and four across the hill, kind of four and a half across the hill kind of thing. And you can see where the smaller set of tracks set down, like four inch tracks, like perfect
little bigfoot tracks. And the thing wandered over to the embankment and they were digging clams, the adults, I think that, yeah, the clams there they were digging so that you can see they had been digging, and where the little baby been sitting, they made a little daisy chain out of these flower stems, which kind of reminded me. We assume that the baby because it was small, and Tracy still
has it's it's about four inches long or so. But it reminded me about when you guys went to the nest site and found the looks like a baby bigfooted practice making nests just like the big ones. That they're kind of janky and all that. I was like, you know, that kind of ties in like they do practice from a young age and making nests and that eating stuff like that sort of stuff.
Yeah, And of course, the you know, the purported or the hypothesized juvenile nests at the Olympic Project site. They thought that it might be a juvenile thing because it was smaller than some of the bigger ones and also is up above the ground. It was in a bush or if I remember right, or some sort of you know, a lot of it's a huckleberry which grows up to be like ten or twelve feet in that area, but it was like about three or four feet off the
ground or something, if I remember. I don't think I saw that one with.
My own eyes. Maybe I did. Actually response to the chimps and Oraontians do the same thing they practice, make a nest when they're young with kind of crappy ones, you know, then they get better and better so they get older.
Oh yeah, yeah yeah. Isn't that true of all ape species, including our own?
And if people want to go back and listen to Tracy talk about some of that stuff she was on episode two oh one.
I just say, I guess I'm not a good primate clipause I have at practice sessin so I was young, you know.
But I'd like to think that you're getting better at things that you continue to do, though, right, or you're not getting worse, are you?
I can't think of anything I'm getting better at all.
Right, fair enough.
Since we didn't mention the specific dates earlier, I did pull up a calendar, so we'll be doing the event at the NABC on Thursday, January twenty third, and then squatch Fest is Friday, January twenty fourth and Saturday January Ray twenty fifth, and I'll put the links for that stuff in the show notes.
Cool.
Cool, Thank you for doing that. Well, anyway, it'd be nice to have you up here for that.
Bobs.
I don't know if you can make an app and that'd be awesome.
Should take out a couple of days of work, that'd be worth it, though, But I only get five days off like out of the school of the semester. So to leave like early early Thursday morning, get up there in time for that all, I could probably pull it off.
Yeah, well you know what if maybe If not Thursday, then just come by on Friday and hang out and split on Sunday go back home. Don't you have Fridays off?
No? No, that was just that one day.
Oh are you working five days a week?
Yeah?
Oh my goodness, sos to only do three.
But they like me, so give me. They said, can you do this? I said, yeah, the next thing, I'm working like five days a week, like three quarters time.
You're rolling in that sweet sweet public education money.
Oh god, literally would make more at McDonald's. McDonald's wage just starts higher in California.
You probably smell better after work too.
You get more respect me and McDonald's employed than being a working at the school, as those kids don't respect the adults too much.
But it's sad. I mean, working with the kids is great. It's just great, and you're helping them out and you never know you just never know the difference you make until you know. You probably never know for most of the kids, but even you know to this day, maybe not today today, but you know, kids show up, like former students of mine pop by the museum and tell me what a difference they made, And like some of the kids were just Hellians who I didn't think would make it.
Honestly.
It's like, man, that kid has an uphill climb to adulthood and he's but they come back and they're all together and stuff, and then they say something's kind like, you know, a man like you really made a big, big difference. It's like really touching.
Man.
You just never know what good thing you accidentally put out into the world. You know, so just you wouldn't be there unless the universe wanted you there. So good for you, man, I'm really happy for him.
The teachers that have the in fact I knew were the ones with the hardest on me for sure, are the ones that I didn't put up with a lot, Like they knew I could skate by just like not studying and stuff, you know, get on me and make me work harder and all that kind of stuff like that. Yeah, I was like I didn't like them at the time. I thought they were like mean or whatever. But and I was like, oh, these they helped me out more than the people. Are just nice and let me cruise.
Yeah. Yeah, love comes in a lot of different forms and sometimes it's a little tough. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. Will be right back after these messages.
So tell me about Crypticon, man, I missed. I was bound. I missed it.
It was It was a good event. I mean, cryptocon is one of the best organized events. You know, it really well attended. Of course that a lot of good people.
This year.
The speaking list was kind of divided between like entertainment people like TV nerds various sorts, and like a like researchers who were into doing it out of the level the subject. You know, I guess the TV shows that were represented. Russ and Maria were there from Expedition Bigfoot. They had some guy named Tom who's on that show like the Skinwalker Ranch show, whatever that is. And they had a woman who was on that Expedition X show
where they Mark Marsell. Yeah, or they didn't. They didn't give Mark the respect that he deserves and they kind of stole his thunder by pretending to rediscover the cabin site, even though Mark had done so many many years early earlier than their television show was filmed.
Where people do what hell about that?
But you know what, she actually came up to Mark and said I'm sorry about how that worked out or something to that effect. So whatever, but she was cool. I guess I didn't really speak to her.
Then.
Oh, that guy from ancient Aliens with the big the forehead and the hair and stuff. He was there, Georgio something right. He was a good guy. I saw him interact with all the customers and stuff. He was really good with everybody. I barely spoke to him, though, Yeah I was. I was busy because, you know, between the people who wanted to talk to me, and then of course Mark Marcelle was in the booth next to me.
So if I wasn't talking to a you know, a potential customer or someone who wanted to talk to me for a little while about bigfoot stuff, I was talking to Mark or Matt. Prude and Emily were across from me. Renee was there.
Okay, what about Moneymaker?
No, he wasn't there. He wasn't there, but yeah, he didn't. It wasn't in that job. I understand that they tried to reach out to him, but he didn't get back in time or something like that or some of that effect. Maybe he's busy. I don't know. But Renee and I were there for our show. I didn't get a chance to speak to Renee too much either. You know, she she had a flock of followers following around doing stuff so that she had a good time talking to people.
Cool.
No, it was good, though. It was great. A lot of the favorite vendors were there as usual, and well, bah the wait mountain mountain monsters. I can't forget them, of course, I'm so sorry.
Oh yeah, which ones?
It was Huckleberry Buck and then a wild Bill and it was wild Bill's birthday.
Oh sixty five, sixty six.
Right, yep, yeah, yeah, it was funny in the in the green room, I gave him. I gave him a rash a crap in the green room. Actually, I don't think he heard me, though Buck heard me, and that was rewarding enough for me. Because somebody joke in the green room, you know, we're like getting lunch or something like that, and someone asked wild Bill, is it really your birthday? He goes sure is sure? Is blah blah who Dick.
Or who you know?
Like he like all loud and everything like he does. And someone says how old are you? And he goes, I'm forty two and he clearly isn't forty two, right, And he goes, you can't. Someone said you can't be forty two, and I said something to the effect of, like, he's not, but that's as high as he can count.
Awesome.
Yeah, no, I don't. I don't think wild Bill heard me. And I wish he would have, because I loved me some wild Bill, and you know, I just love the guy, and he would have taken it like it was intended, just like it's a good natured heckle. But Buck heard it. He laughed and laughed and laughed, so at least at least the joke landed with somebody who appreciated it.
I love those guys.
I love those guys too, and I got a great heckl for the next time somebody lies to me about their age.
Oh yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know when somebody somebody's turning sixty and they're saying, I'm fifty three and somebody, I got a good heckle now.
So good one I got, I got I got that one now too.
Yeah, feel free to use it, everybody, feel free to use it. So but no, Wild Bill is great. And you know what was really touching is that, you know, Jennifer and Lee, the organizers. We had Jennifer on the podcast last week, I think or a week before, and then Lee we had last year at some point, because you know, they do paranormal stuff and bigfoot stuff and
encrypted the organized events. They're just great folks. But they're so kind and so loving and like they're more than just you know, managers or you know people who invite us to speak at events and stuff like that. They're friends. They're legitimately friends.
Yeah.
They love all their their their their quote unquote talent that they manage through creepy people management.
You know. I listened to the Jennifer interview and I was so bond of us. I was like a bunch of times like, oh I could have added something there, I could have added something. I was like, still do music. She's she's so positive and lasting, like the world can be melting crumbling around and she just goes aha, you know it just takes care of it.
Oh yeah, yeah, you know, and you know they have such big hearts. They actually went out and got a birthday cake for wild Bill and they were kind of walking around on Saturday during his birthday, you know, and handing out pieces to you know, very speakers and that sort of stuff. And it was really touching because it
really touched wild Bill. He said that something to the effect of, like no one had ever done anything like that for him before they got up a birthday Really yeah, thank god, Like wild Bill is like one of the most loving kind people I've ever met. How did he go to sixty six or forty two, our ever old he is, and not have somebody to get him a birthday cake? But anyway, so yeah, that's kind of an update on some of the stuff that happened.
Matt.
You were going to say some stuff.
Right, Oh, I was just saying it was it was a great time.
What I love about that event because now I've done it four years in a row, is I recognize like eighty percent of the faces. It's a lot of the same people that come back every year, which is super cool, you know, so it really feels like a little unity, you know, I recognize names and faces, and that's a cool thing to see.
You know that it genuinely is.
Comprised of people who are actually interested in the subject and come back every year, and they've built up a familiarity with the speakers that are returning, and so it's like a continuing conversation in a way, and that's super cool.
Yeah, a lot of members, of course members, and not only the museum, but the podcast people come up and they remind me that there are actually people listening to the podcast. Because I see it all the time. I kind of forget sometimes I'm just hanging out with you know, the Bobs and Matt, you know, shooting the poop. But a lot of people really really enjoy this thing.
Man.
It's always surprising, almost shocking to me that so many people are out there listening.
I can't tell you how many people I met that walked up to me, either at the Friday meet and greet or at my booth and they're like, hey, Matt, I'm so and so I'm an honorary Pigeon, and.
Then they would continue to introduce themselves. That's a pretty big claim.
We call our members the honorary Pigeons. And if you're not a member, you probably want to become one so you can hear the episode about the pigeons and learn why. Even though I teased it a few episodes ago.
I heard you saying that wasn't I wasn't sure how I felt.
It's just so funny to hear people come up like, Hi, I'm an honorary pigeon, you know, like that's their job titled.
I gotta get those pictures to you, prude, I send those to you.
Oh yeah, yeah, people would love to see that. I want to see them too. Now that I'm a big pigeon fan.
I found some Red Rover pictures. Oh, send them over. But no, that's a great one. Red Rovers threw it right over. It was a great event. You were sorely missed.
Like Cliff said, lots of people asked about you, So it's always fun to hear all the positive feedback and people that really enjoy it and love it. And met a lot of those folks. So if you came up and said, hey, thank you so much, made my weekend.
For sure, I always get asked about you and the other folks I'm funding bigfootinget. Oh, I get that all the time, and you know, and you know, it doesn't matter who believes, doesn't matter if I believe, let alone Renee right, But uh, you know what, what are the other guys doing? You know, it's like we're Scooby doing we live together in the Mystery Machine or something. I know exactly what everybody's up to, and it's like, I don't know they want to live in the same state. Man.
But my favorite way of asking about any other cast member is when they come up and they go, how's my bobo? My bobo like that that they love you so much. They always they think they own you. How's my bobo?
They're on a piece of my heart. You know.
One of the things we should figure out, especially if we get together in January, is people are always asking if think can get something signed by the both of you, and I always try to tell them like, uh, that might be tricky because they live pretty far apart and everything would have to be mailed around. But lots of people ask. So maybe if the three of us can get together there in January.
The shipping is so expensive, that's the product media, Clive and back.
Absolutely, maybe we can solve that. The reason I'm saying this on the record here is because we do get a lot of emails about that, and then many people ask me about that at Crypticon, I probably have like six or seven people ask so putting it out there for anyone who listens that that's not the easiest thing to do.
But maybe maybe we'll figure out a solution in the future. Let's just say for members, we got to do one of those things like how people write in like a just an easy little contest and you know, pick a couple winners for give out do outgoing voicemail messages for him or send a messages to when they pick leave a message on their phone for him.
I think that would be fun. And you're still on cameo right, yeah, I need to put a link to that in the show notes. Oh yeah, please do, Matthew.
And how is that going by the way, that you have any like weird requests like tell my ex wife to go screw herself or something.
Only rarely I get some roast ones, like lately having get some roast ones. It's almost all them birthdays in roasts.
I did see a pretty great ro to him because you know it will show previous cameos, and there was one of you say like, hey, so, so your co workers reached out to me.
They said, you're the dumb.
Guy in the office that doesn't believe in Bigfoot.
That sucks.
You're like the You're like to Michael Scott, if you want to be cool, will be like Dwight true and believe in this ass.
Us always time stuff back to do it true whenever possible.
Yeah, so, you know, the Krypton can thing was. I really enjoyed the presentation part of it. And part of it is because well number one asked one of my favorite segments of any gig, you know, like I like meeting people and all that sort of stuff, being at the table and all that jazz, but really being on stage. I really enjoy that part. It reminds me of being
a teacher and that sort of thing. And my presentation this year, I'd kind of do one for the most of the for the majority of the year unless there's something special that people request. Was the best of the museum in twenty twenty three, and you know, I narrowed it down to about an hour or something like that. It was really hard to pick because so many good things happened in twenty twenty three, of course, and this
is here. We are at the end of twenty twenty four, so it's kind of fun to look back that far and realize all the stuff that has happened in between. So when we do go to squatch Fest in January, I'll probably I'll have a brand new presentation, and I suspect it'll probably be what the museum was up to in twenty twenty four, because not only is it easy, but it's also there. There's just so much really good squatchy stuff.
Man.
I can I sometimes just go out. There's some stuff happening, man, And.
You got the slides to match it with too. You got plenty of that.
Oh yeah, yeah. Every time I go out, I bring a video camera and a regular camera, so there's tons and tons of footage of things. And of course now I got the three D scanning technology on top of it. Lots going on. But I'm looking forward to actually piecing together my next presentation.
You're looking forward to that? That's how as hell?
Well, you know, I'm looking forward to having another one and kind of refining it, you know, because the last couple of years I busted a brand new one out at squatch Fest every year and then close down the year. Well, you know, I change it a little bit throughout the season, but I mostly closed down at a cryptid con. It's like the end of the season. It's like it's like I'm on summer break, except it's you know, the end
of November December, and it's crappy outside. Well, I've been plowing through a new book, A little species, Big Mystery. I think it's called by Debbie Argue. I finally got my teeth into that for I'm only like two or three chapters in, but I will say this, man, I think everybody should read that. It is absolutely fantastic, And
of course it's about Homo fleesiensis. And it's recent enough that it even includes some stuff on Homo lose on ensis, which is the newest species of diminutive hominin from Indonesia in that general area, although loots on ensiss was from the Philippines, but you know, same general part of the world,
Southeast Asia at least. And man, when you're reading through the description of Homo fleesiensis, except for the size, you're kind of just talking bigfoot, and there's there's a lot of small there's all differences like they don't have a pronounced sagital crest for example. Most probably because of size, honestly more than anything else. But they're talking about how the upper segment of the leg is shorter than it is in human you know, I believe that's called the
cural index. I remember right talking about how the feet are longer in proportion to the height of the animal.
I thought sasquatch ha longer thigh than shin.
Maybe that's what cral indexes. It could be incorrect about that, but the thing is like that the torso seems to be longer than the legs, and it's because one of the legs is shorter. And then that they're talking about how the foot is longer in proportion to the body
than what they expected it to be. And because of those two features together, how they have to lift their leg on every single step basically to the ninety degree mark to lift the toes over as they cross the substrate, which is exactly what you see in the Patterson Gimlin film.
What's the ratios on that? Like footprint like because they found they found footprints in the cave.
Right, Like, no, no, they didn't know they found these like a few meters underground, so there are no footprints in the cave, and also the cave has been occupied by humans for a long time as well. But I'm only a handful of chapters in. I've got a long ways to go, but so far, I'm very very impressed with this book and the examples of archaic common in features that that doctor Argue is laying out in front
of you is very very impressive. Like these things are not you know, you know, some sort of strange mutated humans by any means they are. They're not even a homoerectus, as is often claimed, like some sort of like homoerectus
taken into the grips of island dwarf ism. That is not That does not seem to be the case at all, based on the evidence that she's laying out, these are clearly some sort of archaic common and uh, Homo habilists Homo rudolph insis like in that general zone, Homo habilists was the first Homo species you know of our genus.
Before that, they were australopithe scenes. And what we're looking at with Homo three zience is my even be in that like in that zone Australia pithesenes, Homo habilists, maybe rootolphenses and that sort of zone there, basically some sort of weird like upright walking apes sort of deal, but using tools like Homo ablists was It's really really interesting and of course that has huge consequences for our subject.
You know, if if some sort of archaic or early early hominin, you know, early Homo laid Australia pithscene or something like that, radiated out of Africa and made it to Indonesia, where else could such a creature have gone to, like North America for example, And it makes sense that they would be small of course in Indonesia because it's pretty much right at the equator. And that's Bergmann's rule. The further away from the equator you live, an animal
lives like the larger they become. So something archaic like a or even Homo habilist, although I doubt that would be Homo hablists probably before that because of the tool lack of tool use, but something like a some species of australopithescene radiating out of Africa and going to the
northern climes where it could get larger over time. That that has Bigfoot all over it, all over it, and the physical descriptions that they're given for Homo three ziensis are just pretty much spot on in a lot of ways, and not all not all, of course, but some of the some of the specific features and the mosaic of features that they lay out or you know, like basically bigfoot, you know, talk about the flat, flexible feet. It's just really really interesting books. So go get it. Check it out.
Little Species, Big Mystery by Wie Argue. The book was recommended to me by doctor Jeff Meldrum, so it's got to be pretty good, right, Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. Will be right back after these messages.
Yeah, I've definitely been interested in reading that. I hadn't picked up a couple of year because we've been traveling so much. He is a pretty big proponent that they've been misdiagnosed right, that they should not be placed within the genus Homo. I don't know if that argument is later in the book, but is she already kind of laying out the case from what you've read.
I have not gotten to any argument about the nomenclature. I guess i'd be the taxonomy. I'm not sure. I'm of swimming over my head in that vocabulary there, but I haven't heard any contention about them being homeo versus
Australia pittascene or anything like that. But she is laying out the arguments and showing the results of various testing and cladistics or cladistics, I guess, and a handful of other avenues for finding out which animals these are most closely related to, and they're all coming back, you know, Homo habilis, and then there's a lot of discrepancies between them and like homoerectus and whatever else, and they share
a lot in common with Australa pitthtoscenes as well. So at this point in the book, I'm not sure if she has a problem with the genus name or not, but I'll get there. I believe Darren Naish wrote me, and I got the double check. I don't want to put words in Darren's mouth, of course, and he's a listener, so if you're listening there, and you can always shoot an email or something about it. But I think I believe he said that these things are basically ostrolopitth the scenes,
which I think is so so interesting. So put that in your new reading list there, Bobes, you'll dig it.
It'll come out on Kendall eventually, wasn't that I would hope.
So, I mean, it really just depends on the publisher. But you know, I end up reading that way so much, just because we're always on the road and I read a lot at night, so it's just easy to pull out my phone and read on the app, you know, because you don't need a light, you don't need to carry around a physical book with you. So a lot of new books out purchase that way. And then you know, I'll go to use bookstores and just look around and see if anything jumps out at me and pick up
print books that way. But if it's a new book, I almost always go for the epub version of the e book.
I hate buying digital books, so I just feel like I'm getting ripped off for some reason that I get the same information. I just I don't know. I prefer the hard but I like, I prefer you on the computer, but I don't like buying the books that way. It's weird.
Well, what I love about it is that you can highlight sections and then you could export all your highlights. And so you know, every book that I have is just so full of highlights, and then you know, I can either email those to myself or export it to my notes or a different app on my phone, or just pull up the book and click the highlights and
scroll through it. So there's very often I'm in conversations with people and they'll ask about something and I'm like, hold on, and I'll just pull up the specific reference in seconds, because it's just all in my pockets stored that way, you know, and then I can read off the exact verbiage, which is kind of nice so to me the convenience of that. And again reading at night, like I've read before bed every night, so get in bed, lights are out, and applau the phone or read a few chapters.
You know, we've already spoken about cryptidcom But one thing I forgot to mention Bobo. It's one person who sends his regards, of course, is Tom Shay to ask about Tom. Yeah, Tom was there, the great Tom Shay was there, and versus lovely wife Crystal, who's a spitfire to say the very very least.
Yeah, she's classic. Yeah, she's great.
You know what she said to me when this time she always says something awesome to me, and this time the gem that I'm walking away with is something. And forgive me for not having the numbers right. But you know, she was much younger than Tom when they met, and she said something to the effect of like, he didn't choose me, I chose him. I think I was like twenty three or whatever, she said, and he was like forty three or there's like a twenty year difference or
almost twenty years. That's something that effect. And she says, yeah, I was twenty three and he was like forty three. And when I looked over at him and I said, that is one sweet piece.
Personally, I thought when I saw him.
Totally totally yeah, yeah, yeah.
You know, I was the MC there, so I had to introduce every speaker, and you know, some of the ones that you know, I wasn't as familiar with. I didn't try to elaborate too much in their background because I didn't want to get any details wrong. And also note that you know, if the room is packed for that person in the crowd already knows because they might watch that person's show or I've already read that person's books.
But when Tom came up, you know, I was I had asked the crowd, like, how many of you listened to big Foot of Beyond? And almost everyone raised their hands, and I was like really yeah, And I I said like, well, then you've heard, you know, Cliff Berrickman talk many times about this gentleman being you know, one of the greatest field researchers that ever lived, and maybe the greatest living field researcher. And I built him up pretty hard, and I was like, you know, he's a Kentucky guy. Give
him a you know, a home welcome. Make a bunch of.
Noise for the greatest living field researcher.
They went crazy, and I made a ton of noise and I turned to Tom and I was like, no pressure.
Try didn't dig that. He looked a little like, oh man, why are you setting me up like this? Well he's so hum man, he's the best.
Yeah, yeah, yeah, he's just so humble about it too.
Man.
It's really great, you know, And which actually brings something else to mind. And again I know that we circle back to cryptocon after talking about something else, So forgive us all for being non linear. But at the end I had some extra time, which is very rare. I don't know if I had an hour hour and a half to speak. Maybe I had an hour and a half and that's why I had extra time. But I decided to do questions and I was asked a question that I didn't really like, but I went with it.
And if you're the person who asked me for forgive me. But they asked me like, Okay, so you think Tom's doing great work, and Mark Marcel is doing great work? Who else, like, who else is doing stuff right now that you think is doing good important work? Well, thank you. I appreciate that, But I had a hard time thinking of it, and I realized that's by by having very few people to mention. Afterwards, it sounded almost like I was dissing people who are who are doing work in
various ways. But I realized that the problem I had with that question is that I had to couch it in. There's a lot of people doing a lot of different kinds of bigfoot research. I'm just not interested in a lot of those different kinds of research, and I think that was a problem I had with answering that question. Although when I was trying to answer it on stage that hadn't occurred to me yet, that that hadn't clicked,
you know what I mean. Like, for example, I was thinking, well, like Charlie Raymond's tracking down you know, people and talking to them all the time, witnesses and stuff. He's not really into the casting thing and doing it. He's got his own set of stuff. I didn't bother mentioning Charlie Raymond or anybody like that, or or I mean there's dozens of people who work for the BFRO, for example, and like who are just no, no, I just don't have time of course, And of course Dave Ellis, I
don't know if I mentioned him or not. I'm thinking yeah, because I was. I was just stuck in the mode of the kind of research that I'm interested in and who's doing something that I find interesting and valuable in that way? You know, So whatever it's worth, I didn't mean that this anybody by not mentioning them, which is why I didn't. I didn't particularly like the question when I when I'm asked to like who's doing good stuff? And I don't mention somebody, It's most likely I just forgot.
But in this case I was trying to think of, like, Okay, who's research am I am I interested in? But you got to remember that's just what Cliff is interested in and being you know, inundated with sasquatch stuff for the last thirty years. I'm just a lot less interested in certain kinds of research, you know, like like tracking down witnesses or something like that. I'm just less interested in talking to witnesses unless it's fresh. Because I've said it before,
a witness to me isn't the goal. A witness to me is a sign post where I should go, you know that. And that because I'm interested in looking at stuff in the ground, trying to find spore, you know, hair and footprints and foraging. I'm interested in that stuff, not necessarily a story that somebody had from ninety six or something like that. It doesn't mean it's it's not valuable research. You can learn a lot from that sort
of stuff. I'm just not as interested in it. So if you were in the audience, you know, and you felt that I was being down on some people that I didn't mention, that's probably why.
You know.
I'm interested in field biology basically, you know, and the and the siding reports are yeah, yeah, and the siding reports are cool and all, you know, to a certain point until you hear thousands and thousands and thousands of them. But and eventually they turn into a dot on the map, or you know, a little bit of supporting data for something, or every once in a while an insight into some
interesting behavior or something like that. But for the most part, there's just another road crossing story and and that's a place where I could go look. But beyond that, there's not much for me personally to do that do with it, because that's just not my thing. But for someone like Charlie Raymond, yeah he loves that stuff, then great more power to you go get him. And that stuff does play a role and it is interesting to a lot
of people and stuff. So so whatever it's worth, I meant no disrespect to anybody out in the big foot field who I didn't happen to specifically mention. It's just that, you know, when I mentioned Chris Spencer or Mark Marcell doing either field stuff or these horse sort these historical deep dives and stuff, that's what blows my mind and really gets me turned on.
So there's people doing great stuff that we've never heard of. Like every once in all, i'll see a link like something, maybe like on a on A West's Sasquatch chronicles his blog posts. I'll click on there. Sometimes I'll go through them and like, well, this person, I've never heard of, this person, this group and there get a lot of results and doing good work.
And I did. I did have the clarity of mine to mention that. I said, there's probably a lot of people who are doing great stuff. And again I use Tom Shay as an example, because I had never even heard of Tom Shay until somehow the producers I'm Finding Bigfoot doug him up. You know, I'd never even heard of the guy and now become really good friends with him and you know, and trade information and stuff. So yeah, I'm sure there's dozens of people out there doing good things.
I just don't know him. I didn't even mention Todd Prescott the great historical work that he's doing and stuff, So yeah, I don't know. I was kind of like, it's one of those things, you know, how I am about beating myself up about stuff. Man, Like on the on the walk back from the from the stage to my table, I was thinking, oh, shoot, I didn't mention this person. I didn't mention that person. And it's like, oh man.
So that's what you say, you know who you are?
Yeah, maybe I should have done that. Where are you when I need you?
Bobs?
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right back. After these messages.
I'm going crabbing. The model is support crabbing.
Are you off of work this week?
Yeah? Yeah? Thanksgiving?
Oh wow, that is indeed something to be thankful for.
They get a whole week nowadays. When I was in school, I just got off Thursday Friday. Now it's all week.
Yeah, me too. Hopefully that'll give us a bump in the museum. It's been a little slow lately.
Really. I kind of image that thing ever being slow. It's so bitching in there.
Oh yeah, definitely slow, very very weather dependent, you know. But yeah, so we we just got to crawl our way through February. Then we'll pick back up again. December is okay because Christmas and stuff.
But right January's are well, Generuary. That's probably not too bad with all the skiers writer or is that.
Yeah, it's not that great now the skiers because you know, picture being a skier, right, So you take off early to the mountain, you see the sign on the side of the road. We got to go there someday. And then when you drive back at whatever time skiers stop skiing, you know, noon or three or something like that, you're already exhausted. You've been out in the sun and the snow all day and stuff. You don't want to stop.
N We catch some of course, you know, but not as much as uh as one one might think.
An updates on acquisitions for the museum.
Well, talking to Mike Rugg, so we're kind of waiting for some things to fall into place for him. But it looks like that might be a good deal or done deal, should say. So I'll be coming down to Santa Cruz some time the next month or two and talking to Mike about that. Made a few interesting phone calls lately to some historical people, and we'll see if anything comes from those. I don't really want to talk
about those on the air so much. But yeah, there's always something cooking, man, there's always something cooking.
I think if he got mix that'd be pretty cool.
Well, yeah, yeah, he wants it to go somewhere that is going to be like honored and you know, and then kind of got the thing set up for that at this moment. Yeah, but some interesting things are happening.
You know.
When I was out in cryptied Con, Tom Shay sent me home with an original cast, so that was extraordinarily generous of him, of course. And also moments remember that story he told us about seeing that Sasquatch Goliath. You know, he was casting its footprint and it was on the other side of the side by side. Well, when he got home that day, he drew a picture of it, and he sent me an email with that picture and it,
you know, a couple of years ago. And at the cryptid Con this past weekend, he actually gifted me the original drawing that's going to go up in the museum as well. And I dropped by the museum. They had to drop it off in fact, so that should be in the wall in the next day or two.
But then in the members section, I got I want to see a picture of that.
Oh, it's pretty cool. It's pretty cool. I think I'm pretty sure I have a drawing of it. I can certainly email it to you. Yeah, I actually I know I have a scan of it. I know I have a scan of it, So I mean that.
Picture, I mean that story stuck out to me so hard. That's that's another ultimate just freaking missed opportunity. I thought he was filming it, but he was feeling himself backwards on a flip phone.
It was like, I know, so disappointing, but you know, whatever, this shows he's really bigfooting. He's making mistakes like everybody else does. You know, Tom is one of the greatest, But it's not like you know, the greats don't make mistakes, that's for sure.
He's not a tech you know, some twenty year old tech whiz kid. He had a flip phone for crying out loud.
Yeah, I just sent you the Goliath drawing by Tom Shay had the original in the museum, kind of give you an idea. And of course he drew this, I believe the same day he saw it, so it was fresh in his mind at the time.
He can schedule a little bit, Kenny. He can sketch decent, canny.
Not bad. It's not bad. I've seen way worse, way worse. But while we're waiting for that to go through, I do have an update because a lot of people were asking me because I guess I've been talking about it on the podcast. See, maybe I should listen to our podcast. Everyone walks, I never remember what we talked about, and then people come up and ask me about stuff, and like, how'd you know that we talked about on the podcast?
So I just still listen. But I talked about Sochi, I guess a couple of weeks ago on the podcast, and how they found a tumor in her do claw in her thumb basically, and we had to have her thumb amputated. Well, got everything taking care of the surgery went well. The stitches were removed on Sunday when I was encrypted gon So and she's doing great. Man, she's
feeling good. I'll tell you that she's feeling great because she is such a pain in the ass right now, just running around and like running full force and slamming her cone into your leg and stuff like that. She's having a really good time.
You know.
We take her out to take her out to pee in the yard or take a dump on the art or whatever she does, and then like we have a hard time getting her back in the house because she's just feeling awesome. So that's great news. But we did get the lab results back and Sochi is one hundred percent cancer free. It was, in fact, it was cancer.
She had cancer. I thought she like screwed up her dew claw while running on the gravel or something like that, you know, like pulled the pulled the nail out of the quick or whatever that's called, just you know, some dog thing. But that wasn't the case at all. Apparently it was. It was melanoma in her bone. I guess I didn't know that. I thought melanoma was just skin cancer, but apparently not. They tested it and h or maybe maybe it started on the skin and went down. I
have no idea. I have no idea that I don't really know. I wish I could tell you more, but I kind of don't care in a way, because all that matters is that Sochi is one hundred percent cancer free and a royal pain in the ass, and I just love her a bits for it. So yeah, super super good news, super good news. So I got the drawing. Yeah, what do you think?
It's another one of those ones that looks pretty human.
You know, like not really that looks human to you. Well, you live in Humble, you know.
It does to me, it looks it doesn't look like it looks more like a human than than a champ.
Yeah yeah, but you know, they don't have a big prognathism, you know, or anything like that. I mean, I don't know. Maybe it looks like you know, uh, Jesse Rubber Jaw McGraw or whoever the guys you're hanging out with, you know, than an Humble, But that doesn't look human to me.
Yeah, that's like saying a dog looks more human than a gecko. I disagree for it.
Well, we'll put that drawing up in the members section so for members can weigh in on it and see what they think, you know, human or not. I don't think it looks very human to me. But but still, I mean, well, sasquatches kind of look humany you know. Then again soda orangutans in a lot of ways.
So yeah, well it looks like a human. Would say it looks I should say it looks human ish. Well they all do.
I guess it's certainly not anthropomorphized, you know, like a lot of these drawings in the books are.
Right, I just some things stare When he thought it was nine feet tall or something. The imagine things staring at you.
Yeah, over your side by sides, like thirty or forty fifty feet away or whatever part it was while you're casting its footprint.
Oh my god, that's nuts. Did he see less after he'd cast that and he saw cast it? Did he find his footprints less after that? I imagine did he?
No, he's still finding one, man like he regularly. Gliath's just one of the locals, man like, they're just He's just one of the ones that he finds.
He's not he's not more careful where his steps.
Now apparently not.
I thought I would have lived and learned well.
As you said, man, they're not all rocket scientists. In fact, I venture to say, go on a limb here that none of them are rocket scientists.
That's a pretty good assention, Cliff.
Yeah, Well, you know, I'm going, like I said, I'm willing to take a chance on that statement, because you know, when you talk about bigfoot for a living like I do, in a lot of ways, you see a lot of things that are just factually incorrect. So it makes me feel good when I can say something that I know is one hundred percent.
Correct that's true. That's true.
I don't lie, but I'm I'm very often wrong about something.
So I guess it's about it for this episode. Huh.
I think so.
I think so.
It is good catching up with everybody.
Yeah, I get here from you guys. I like to getting the crypt of Con up. They s that places. Thought it was at the same hotel, right, that big long hallway and all that.
Yeah, yeah, but they renovated it. They renovated it, and.
They were working on the last of miles early they started. They just started working on it. Just sell the game room and all that stuff.
Yeah yeah, the game room, that real long hallway. And by the way, thank you for the listener who gave me a bag at Super Bowls to go play with, right, Okay, yeah, yeah, so I really appreciate that. Yeah yeah, but trip to Con was great, and thank you to Lee and Jennifer putting it on. And they're doing it next year. I guess Melissa told me on Facebook. I guess they're asking them if they should do it in September or November. I don't know what they'll decide, but I know in
September I can't go. I've got a job in New York that same weekend, so I'll be out there in New York and next September in twenty twenty five.
Whitehall.
No, no, it's not the white Hall event. It's a brand new one that I've never been done before. But I think Alderman and I are signed up for it, so it should be good. I think it's in the cats Skills or something. I don't know much about it yet because it's brand new and there you know, if there is anything about it, it's on social media, and I don't do social media really, so we will see. But as it gets closer, I'll let everybody. I'll keep everybody in the loop.
Well I guess that's it, folks.
Well we got a whole members thing to do now, so.
Yeah, yeah, Well for these people that aren't going to aren't members, that's it for them.
I can't believe that not everybody's a member yet.
And if you want to be a member, we offer annual memberships now ten percent off, so it's a pretty great deal.
You can come learn about the pigeons.
I can't coop very good anymore. I can't even do it. My throat's too thrashed.
All right, I let's just slide on this time.
But all right, okay, folks and honorary pigeons out there and real pigeons. It makes a lot of tune it in. We appreciate you guys listening, and we'll talk to you members here in a little bit and until next y'all, keep it squatchy.
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle, and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag Bigfoot and Beyond