Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys, are you fav It's so like say subscribe and raid it, lip stock Sho and me.
Question today and listening.
Oh watchy Lin always keep its watching.
And now you're hosts Cliff Barrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Hey, Bob, So what's happening? Man? Just lurking in the Northwest, just lurking on my porch right there. I can actually see you again. This is the second broadcast we've been able to do in person.
I get sucked again. Yeah.
Last time we did a podcast here in the porch, it was we did under a tarp, and of course the tart filled up with rain and dumped on Bobo's computers. That was a great Cliff dumped it. So Cliff dumped it. I guess that's the first time I've been accused of dumping in our presence. I know, I know that was what I was saying. Yeah, but you know, usually right now at Bobo and I kind of banter back and forth and catch up a wispen going on. But we're going to forego all that because we have a very
very special guest and he is also in person. Right now, sitting across this little table on my back porch, we have the lovely and talented Tom Powell with us. Tom is, of course the author of a number of books. The Locoss was very, very influential a lot of ways. In fact, I think that was the first book to talk about habituation of any sort. And then he later came out with Edges of Science, where he went a little weird on the bigfoot thing, which is great because that is
what direction he likes to go. And now he has a third book, a third book called Planet Strange. I have read the entire book cover to cover, and I really really enjoyed it because it strongly reminded me of the nineteen seventies and in search of like Reading through Tom's book is like is like reading a synopsis of all the seasons of in search of all at once. There's a chapter on the pyramid, It's a chapter on the Bermuda triangle. There's a chapter on these mound things.
There's a chapter on all sorts of weird stuff, cattle mutilations, cattle mutilations. Yeah, there's a lot of cool stuff in there, and it's a lot of fun to read. Now I gotta say I am Cliff. After all, I don't necessarily agree with all of it, but that I don't have to agree with something to enjoy it, right, Like I don't think Lord of the Rings is real, for example, but I really enjoy it. So anyway, So Tom Powell
is here us, sitting at the table with us. Thank you very much, Tom for coming over and hanging out. Nice to be here.
It's for the good dinner last night.
Yeah, we had a nice dinner over at Tom's house and yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, we can talk about maybe on the Members episode. But Bobo found a handprint in one of our spots yesterday and I poured some plaster in it, so that was pretty cool. But Tom, since you're here, let's take advantage of your time. So another book, huh? Like, how long has this book been in the works? Probably three years. I didn't write every day, obviously, but it wasn't on again off a process, not including all the reading.
I think one way to describe the book is it's a distillation of about twenty or twenty five separate books, and I sort of took the key ideas that some other authors suggested put it with some other thoughts of my own and came up with sort of something that approaches a unified theory of the paranormal, shall we say?
That's what I was going to say. It reminds me of the grand utification theory in physics, honestly, where the physicists are out there trying to connect relativity with quantum physics and all and just trying to like to come down to one equation to explain everything, like the God equation, I think.
Is what it is. I call it pleasures, all right.
So that's one of the things I think that you've been chasing for a while. It's like the grand utification theory of the paranormal, trying to connect sasquatches to UFOs, to mounds to whatever at the same And do you think that is achievable or do you think that these are actually separate a current separate phenomenon.
They're seen by most as separate, and each of them has people who sort of research it to the exclusion of most else. But the problem that I faced after writing these other books is that there were still these open questions that I couldn't resolve. Where do the sasquatches go when they want privacy? Why is it that we
can't take pictures of them? They seem inclined to avoid cameras, almost as if they understand what they are, and they're reverse to them for reasons that aren't real obvious to people, but to me it those are some of the questions that I was still searching for definitive answers to these questions, and I finally decided that it's not actually an original thought, but the idea is that if you can't find the answers that you're looking for, you have to widen the
area of research and investigation, because it's probable that something is being overlooked or not factored in that that doesn't seem related but actually is.
Well, I like what you're saying because, in my own way, being a quote unquote apor or whatever one side may call it the other, I'm kind of doing the same thing in a realistic way, because you know, I've approached these things like they're perfectly normal wildlife and we can study them as such. But at the same time, I think it's important to look at other disciplines like geology, for example, and see what other things we can learn
from there that might factor in. Now you're doing it on a much different level and much other topics, of course. But I smell at your step in and so to speak, because I do the same thing. I look to other disciplines to help me understand my narrowed focus better. But I did notice that I think the word sasquatch probably appears no more than five times in your entire book. It's not really a Bigfoot book.
No it isn't.
I used the Bigfoot topic as a springboard, perhaps on the first page, and just review some of my conclusions in other books. But of course, you know, the more books you're write, the harder it is to say something that hasn't already been said before, either by me or by someone else. So finding something that is truly new
and different is a little tougher each time. But I think by looking at some of these other disciplines, and looking at the research efforts of other people and other subjects suddenly some light bulbs went on in my own head as to connections that some of these things seem to suggest. A biggie is that there is this underground realm perhaps, and it's something that surfaces in a lot
of Native American lore. They talk about the underworld, and how most tribes attribute their own origins to a subterranean realm that where their ancestors originated. So over and over again you run into these mentions of this subterranean realm. Now, the problem is, of course, it's very difficult to prove any of this stuff. But what you can do, I think, is look for patterns, and sometimes those patterns suggest things
that are, if not provable, certainly credible. And let's just say, from such ideas you come up with explanations that may have been overlooked. For instance, the biggie for me is that the sasquatch, like other creatures us, want safe haven at times, and where is that. We walk around in the woods and we see these structures that sort of look like Tepe's without any covering on them, and people, oh, that's a sasquatch haven of some kind. And I look
at the thing. I think that that doesn't provide shelter from anything. Yeah, they'd be terrible architects if that was the case. They're markers, I think, and and they may be markers of what some people call power spots, vortexes, things like that, other things that we've known about for a long time. The cathedrals in Europe are all located on what we're seeing at the time to be some
sort of power spot, some sort of vortex. So the idea that these vortexes exist on the surface of the Earth is not a new idea, but it is a not very provable necessarily to science. They don't know how to measure these things and whatever power they represent, but they have been acknowledged for a long time, and places like Stonehenge and and so on we're located to take advantage of these places. Then of course there's the Bermuda
Triangle and other places like that. Now people are starting to see that there are these vortex is and they're connected by what they call lay lines, and they pretty much cover the planet from place to place. And what these places exactly are we're just trying to figure out. But it does seem that energies exist there that are potentially quite strong. Have you been to Joe And yes, and that is also seen as one of these places.
There's one here in Oregon on what's called Sardine Creek down by a crater lake, and there are a lot of other places too. Of course, Shasta is a well known I thought it was a lot more credible than I expected. I thought it was going to be a roadside attraction. And once they explained it, which Joe does a really good job of articulating the physics. Yeah, much better than they do with the Oregon Vortex, which is staffed by kids in their late teens early twenties at
the time I was there. Joe and Tammy do a much better job of articulating the science behind this spot, which is in a very unlikely place along the approach to Glacier National Park.
They are right on the flanks of this huge bathlift that.
A giant piece of rock that was all once molten magma and it cooled into this just this giant stone the size of a mountain. And they think that that giant bathlith adjacent to their property has a lot to do with the energy that seems to exist there.
Well, that would make sense because you know, the magma of course brings up minerals and whatnot from inside the mantle of the Earth, you know, and then that's where all a lot of like iron, for example, would be. So if there's any messing with say things like compasses or whatever like that, that would easily explain that sort of thing, right.
And all the crystalline nature of the rock. When it cools slowly, crystals form. When rock cools quickly, it doesn't have time to crystallize. And something about the crystals is also sort of a touchstone that many people uh see as significant when it comes to where this energy comes from and and uh how it is used and so on. Now, of course I'm a science guy. I don't like bathe with crystals or use it for dealter or anything like that. But at the same time, you correct me if I'm wrong.
But if I remember correctly, you actually have a degree in geology, right.
I do not.
I have a degree in environmental science. Oh, and I minored in geology. That's what I'm thinking. I had to choose an area of focus, uh in a degree that was sort of broad and and and intended for education, you know, teaching, and so yes, I focused on geology.
There you go.
I knew, I knew I had. I knew it was somewhere in your uh, in your academic background.
Indeed.
Yeah, so I do appreciate your thoughts on the structure of the Earth and the core. And then then like your knowledge of rocks and BATHOLISTH didn't know that word. I thought a bathylist was something that turned to the throne. Uh yeah, more by the way, wearing a Dungeons and Dragon shirt. So I can say that so and only in like nine people in our listening audience. So just went, oh that's funny, Cliff, and everybody else said Cliss, I don't understand.
Well, here's another geologic open question, and that is the existence of these mounds as they occur, not just nationwide but worldwide.
Well, yes, back up, because, like I know that you've been really pushing the study of these mounds, because you mentioned there's at least one chapter in your previous book, which is a science about the mounds in general. For people who may not be familiar or who haven't seen in search of in the couple a few decades. What is a mound and why do you think they're important?
Well, mounds are just these piles of earth. They're important because they're so poorly understood, so completely mysterious.
Uh well, no, no, some of them are. Some of them are just mounds of piles of earth, as you say, but some of the other ones are are are I think we can say it's a little bit are a little bit more than just piles of earth, like the snake mound, and like the serpent mound. Rather, and yes, they called those effigyug mounds, So if they look like something, they're called effigy mounds, and the others are just mounts, right, animal effigies, Okay, is what.
So the serpent mound is of course in the shape of a serpent with its mouth open, and it's got this egg shaped pile of earth that also is part of the whole structure.
Yeah, these mounds aren't something like ten feet long. It's enormous and it's not clear where this earth came from. The mounds are in all kinds of strange shapes that a lot of them are geometric, and others are just giant piles, but really really big piles, but not naturally occurring sort of hills there they were Historically they were attributed to Native Americans.
Now, the Native Americans themselves said those were here when we came, that we did not build those. But for some reason they just decided they were Native American mounds.
Because they were here before white folks are therefore man made stuff before.
Now to me, they are significant because they represent some sort of tailings from what I see as subterranean excavation.
I think the effigies.
One guy, Jim Brandon, a author of a book called The Rebirth of Pan, suggested that the mounds are there to confuse scientists, and.
As a scientist who might be confused, like dinosaurs.
In other words, the shape we we we argue over the orientation and how they they The mounds, like Stonehenge, point to the point of sunrise on the equinox and on the solstice, and so the mounds get people arguing over their significance. But what gets overlooked is the whole question of where did that dirt come from?
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right back after these messages.
And in many cases it's not all dirt, it's rock as well. So that led me to speculate that the mounds are indicative of subterranean excavations that were done probably thousands of years ago, and then the arrangement of the mounds was done, as Jim Brandon said, to confuse us.
We argue over what the significance of it is, but we tend to overlook the question of mightn't these mounds be telling us that somewhere there was a whole bunch of dirt that just had to be gotten rid of, and that dirt suggests that there are substantial subterranean excavations where beings have taken up residents.
Now, then let me ask you something, because when I was reading the mound section of your book, one of the possible explanations that came to my mind. You must have thought of this at some point is some sort of what are they called middens am I right in that, like you know, basically a trash pile by a group of native people, Like I know, there was a very
large one in Emeryville, California. In fact, it's called there called Shell Mountains down there, because those native people mostly subsisted on molluscs and things from the ocean because they're right on the coast there, and they threw all their stuff up in there. And I read a great book by an archaeologist a number of years ago who was part of the excavation of those before they were torn
all down. And sure, there's like needles in there made out of bone, there's tools, there's trash there's some human bodies in there as well, So it seems like they use these middens for just a disposal service of everything in their small villages and cultures in the area. And they dated back long I believe. I could be wrong, but I believe they dated back to a time that
their oral tradition didn't reach yet. Could it be possible that these other larger mounds, whether they're in the shape of serpentine things or otherwise, could it be just an earlier native culture living in the area who needed to get rid of their stuff and they build a trash pit, you know? Is that possible? Are there some sort of evidence that has been excavated to discount that.
Yeah, lots of mounds have been excavated, especially in the eighteen hundreds. Most of them that still exist today are unprotected, so they don't let you dig into them anymore. But the ones that were excavated in some cases did contain valuable things that suggested burial. But in general, they the bodies that were found nearby were not in the mounds themselves. But they did excavate the mounds and they found that sometimes they were very rich in organic matter, other times
it was absolutely none. Some mounds consist of as much rock as it is earth. So there has been some geologic study of these and they've had conferences. They had one in Washington where all the experts got together and they came up with an agreed upon origin for the mounds. And in ohso scientific terms, the origin of the mounds was described to be polygenic bioturbation.
Well, polygenics, so that's how more than one.
Source, that's correct, more than one origin, and bioturbation means ground has been disturbed by living things.
Right.
So the ones in Washington, the Mima Mountains, the Mima Mounds, they decided were built by gophers, pocket gophers us.
Well, they're centralized. That's the weird part about that. Even I don't agree with that explanation because it's very centralized. Why would it all be there?
There are no gophers currently living in the mountains. We we can't find mounds that are being built today by gophers like that. We do see moles and things build little hills. I have gophers on my property, but I don't have any mounds right behind you. Yeah, we're out of my back horse right now. So I have a mound on my property, But I put it there, and I put it there because I am near the river and I'm on a floodplain, and uh, it's a place to put my vehicles so I don't have to move
them if the river comes for a visit. Now, there is a very large group of mounds in Illinois called Kahoki and it is right where the Ohio River joins the Mississippi. So it's a very large mound group that sits on a floodplain.
And lo and behold, the mounds are flat. Well to me, the purpose of these mounds seems obvious enough. They needed a place to go when the river got high, and so they built these mounds with flat tops on them. That makes sense, but it's still is difficult to explain where they got this earth. And they have started with the hill and just flattened it out. No, because the.
Hill that the mound sits on an otherwise completely flat plain and it's a floodplain. But they're absolutely convinced that they are of you know, intelligent creation, human origin, or something else.
So my overall of you is that.
The extraterrestrial hypothesis factors in here as well, and that is that thousands of years ago, a group of beings showed up on this planet and decided to comfortably ensconce themselves in the planet.
And then they may have had some hand in the origin of humanity. But not to get biblical on you, but.
Even the Bible does talk about the beings from above and the beings down below. And I even remember as a kid in Catholic school that the angels came from above and the devils lived down below, and they knew each other and they interacted. They didn't necessarily get along with each other. They were diametric opposites, and one was seen as all good and one was seen as complete evil.
But it is interesting how what I have come across as a viable possibility, isn't that far from the Catechism that I was taught as a kid in Catholic school.
Now, these themes, whether you find it in the Bible or an oral traditions there they permeate more than just one culture. I mean, the Bible is essentially one particular culture of these people back at that time, at that place, but that's not the only place, as a lot of these themes are found right and one of the themes that occurs in almost every culture worldwide is the theme of a giant flood, a Noah's Arc kind of thing. Right now.
Geologists hated that idea of biblical flood until one particular geologist, Jay Harlan Bretts, who was at the University of Washington, Washington, came up with this giant flood that that ravaged the Northwest, and it had to do with glaciers blocking a key point in a river valley in the water backing up through central and northern Montana, and then the glacier was breached and this giant flood was unleashed. And for years he was ridiculed and he could not offer an explanation
for where this water would have come from. Now it's much better understood, and they can identify this area around Missoula where there was indeed this giant lake and it probably blew out and flooded the landscape more than once.
Now there's another guy named Randall Carlson who goes even further, and she says that there was an impact a comet asteroid, a series of them that struck the ice cap during a glacial maximum and triggered an enormous melting of of the continental ice sheet, and the sea level worldwide rose three hundred feet in two days as this glacier was melted by the fiery impact of probably a string of objects.
What elolation is your property?
My property is one hundred and forty feet It would have been well underwater. Sure, And yeah, your mounds are going to help with that time for yours.
I saw those yesterday. They're not going to help it all. Your boats are going to help you. I better not stop. I'll just keep adding. No. Anyway, there was this enormous worldwide rise in.
Sea level, and this might also factor into the disappearance of this lost continent of Atlantis. It is it is suggested by many that the Azores represent a the top of a smaller continent that was submerged in this sudden rise of sea level. And there was indeed a place called Atlantis that got inundated by this flood. And they've dated the flood at twelve thousand years ago. They think that it probably persisted for as much as eight hundred
to fifteen hundred years. That every year, when the Earth would go through the same part of its orbit, it would get impacted by another object and then more melting would occur and then the water.
Would come up again.
And it's a really fascinating idea that has gained a lot of acceptance in mainstream geology, but it certainly didn't happen at first.
It was ridiculed. Yeah, like these crazy ideas like plate tectonics or something.
Ye.
Yeah, because the guy, I don't know that guy's name. Maybe he's been there, yeah, yeah, he was never recognized as having a good idea there you know where. It was actually after his death that plate tectonics has become like the all the lands, so to speak.
And they were able to verify plate tectonics through all of this undersea mapping that was being done as part of submarine warfare efforts. So essentially the CIA found the evidence that verified plate tectonics in the early sixties. Wegner suggested it in around nineteen ten, nineteen fifteen, and yes, he was ridicule right ahead, yeah.
Some laughing long after your old Bill alliance has the rich tradition of stubborn unwillingness to consider new ideas, and this flood business, as Randall Carlson and Graham Hancock have championed, it is little by little catching.
On with mainstream scientists, and to me it explains some of the mounds, the ones that were built on the Kohoki area of Illinois, but the ones in Ohio don't seem to serve any knowable purpose other than perhaps just to get rid of a bunch of dirt and try not to be obvious about it.
I try to get Randald Carlson the Colonio Show because he has a theory on sasquatch.
I've never heard that that would be interesting.
It's around here somewhere.
Randall Carlson, I think, is a professor in Atlanta, and Graham Hancock is an English cat who's got several books on these strange ideas that may not be as strange as.
They first appear.
But for me, the challenge has been to take several strange ideas Bermuda triangle, cattle mutilations, pyramids and mounds, crop circles. Each one of these topics is really comp cad would take a long time to explain the relevance, but to me they all seem to point in the same direction, and that is there may be what we sometimes would call multidimensional or other dimensional beings, but to me, subterranean is another dimension. I mean, granted, our planet is spherical,
but we essentially inhabit two dimensions. You know, we go this way, we go that way. We don't go up very much except to fly, and we go down even less. But it could be argued that a multidimensional being is no different than a being that lives subterranean, because the subterranean realm, if there is one, could be thought of as another dimension.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. Will be right back after these messages.
And we're putting the beyond in the Bigfoot and Beyond today, are we nice?
Well?
Another one, it's kind of seems kind of out there but but may not be. Is this cattle mutilation phenomena.
Yeah, you know, you were telling me we're going somewhere together like a year and a half ago, and you were unloading all your research on cattle mutilations, and you know, and they happen. They happen. That it's unarguable that they happen. What's behind them is for grabs. But what have you come to settle down?
On his first explanation, Well, there's this guy, Chris O'Brien who lives in New Mexico, who has done more research into this than anyone I know, and I saw him speak, I read his book, and I talked to him at length, and he is of the view that what is going on is this environmental monitoring program, and it has to do with pathogens that we may have accidentally introduced into
our cattle. That is, our food supply is compromised. And all of the work that he and other people have done with cattle mutilation research seems to point in the direction of that that when a steer or a cow or a bull is killed under these circumstances, the parts of the body of the of the carcass that disappear are exactly the ones that would be used to indicate the presence of these certain pathogens called prions, which were introduced into the cattle herds, and it causes uh scabies,
I believe is the is what sheep get and c j D is what humans get. It's called Crudsfeld Jakob disease. And it's it's caused by this living thing that's smaller than a virus, and it's called a prion. I think that's how you say it, preon or prion anyway.
You say tomato, I say yeah, I say tomato.
So what Chris O'Brien argues that it's an indication that something other than humanity is also availing themselves of this food supply, and they're very concerned about these prions because they're vulnerable to them as well. So we're sharing our earth's food supply with something. Is what they take away on these cattle mutilations is seen to be so it's
a sampling, it's like a quality control thing. Ensities and the prions have been also introduced into wildlife herd, specifically elk and deer, and elk and deer are found to have been sampled, you know, mutilated, same thing that the tongue is missing, the little parts of the eye, that the little corner of your eye, and these are places where prions manifest that can be measured. And the other one is of course a fluid that is emitted out
of the anus. And sure enough, cattle mutilations very typically part of.
The eye is gone and.
The anus everything else is left alone and meat and everything not touched. But we now understand something that we didn't understand even a decade ago, and that is these there is a way to test for prions. And those are exactly the places that you would use to test and those those are the things that are being removed when cattle is mutilated.
Well, so I asked you this last night over dinner or right before dinner, about these cattle mutilations and your idea that they're actually our food source is being shared with these other unseen entities or whatever. And I asked, are there records of herders, you know, ranchers missing a large or any of their herd, and could that be used as an indicator for anything? What could we learn from that. It's a lot easier to know when something is messed with if it's put back.
Sure, so the mutilation victims are more indicative than a cow that goes missing, because when a cow that goes missing and has never returned, maybe to go into the multi dimensional food locker.
Uh yeah, it could have been russelled, it could have want wandered off.
And I had a job on a ranch for a while and they would put us on a horseback and ride around in the rim rock and look for the cows and push them all back down, and and we would lose some.
But that's just part of ranching.
So just because a cow disappears, it's it's hard to know what to at tribute that to. But when the cow is removed and then put back minus some body parts, then we have something that we can really speculate upon.
So here's here's something I'm just thinking of. If if these beings are rating our food supply, why why wouldn't they just raise their own cattle to some degree, you know what I mean, like as opposed to stealing.
Hours because they perhaps inhabit this underground ground and cows are herbivores, no plants in the ground, kind of tough to manage a cow underground, keep it contained.
Perhaps these places ground penetrating radar.
Because they're too deep. Ground penetrating radar only goes down a few meters. They use it for looking at railroad grades a little. Yeah, that's a good question. I think there is just a limit to that technology right now as far as how deep you can see. But it's certainly getting better all the time. And I would sure love to know what the limits of ground penetrating radar is. Well, somebody knows, and they're going to email mat proud of it, right, Well,
I'd be interested in that too. I would say that one of the ways we get information on what could be the under this subterranean realm is through excavations that were done especially for you know, military bases. There are these things called dumbs, and the dumb is an acronym
for a deep underground military base. And there was a guy Schneider who claimed to have worked on them, and he went to ray Crow's Sasquatch meetings frequently, and Henry Franzoni would talk to him and he would tell him about the conflicts that would happen when they were building deep underground military bases and then they would inadvertently.
Dig into a.
Another cavity that was already inhabited, and so then there was a clash and and specifically one of these took place in Dulcy, New Mexico, and eventually they worked things out, but they did build the underground military base there and it's still there.
And the first flor is a patch native that ran the all that he was the quarter of all law enforcement for the Hickory Reservation. He was the first law enforcement to turn in photos of calum utilations.
Right there is dulc and so you get places where the cattle mutilations are happening, the mounds happen. It's it seems like there's a connection between what could easily be seen as separate phenomenon phenomena. And so that's what I basically did with Planet strange Is. I speculated as to a potential connection between seemingly unrelated and unexplained phenomena cattle mutilations, Bermuda triangle mounds, things like pyramids. The Egyptians did not
build the pyramids. They didn't even have wheels. How you could build a pyramid without some sort of ability to roll the stones along.
But there is no boat in Egypt today big enough to float one of those giant stones. And the stones were forty and fifty tons in some cases, and some of the stones came from five hundred miles away, the ones that are used to build the center of the pyramid. So the pyramids were not tombs. No, no body, no.
Mummy, mummified remains have ever come out of a pyramid. Those are all in the Valley of Kings. But somehow it's got going that the pyramids were tombs.
There is a guy who then.
Wrote the book called Giza power plant, and he takes the interior of a pyramid, and from a chemical engineering perspective, he is able to attribute the structures to a power plant, basically, some kind of power generating station, and the same is true with the pyramids in Central America and Mexico. It does seem that, especially in the case of the Giza Pyramid, it broke, something caused it to overheat, and there was a tremendous explosion, and you can see the remains of
that in the interior of the pyramid. Some of the stones are pushed out all in outward directions. So either the pyramid was decommissioned accidentally or on purpose, but it no longer functions as the power plant that it was built to be. The Egyptians did not do that, They just happened to be there, but somebody else using who knows what technology to move enormous stones great distances and then stack them up in ways that if they tried to do that using primitive means, they'd still be working.
On two two million rocks stones.
And the design of the pyramid.
Absolutely defies the idea of it being a tomb of any kind, nor are there any decorations in them. The Valley of Kings is full of decorations and valuables and precious metals, but none of that in the pyramids. Well they saw all that because the grave robbers stole it all. Well did the grave robbers steal the bodies too? What what's the value in stealing a body? I think that that would be uh if anything, uh, sort of a bad luck.
Uh.
The early archaeologists had their share of bad luck when they brought the uh.
Unearthed.
There remains and and and uh and all kinds of bad luck happen to these guys.
So you know, they used to trade mummies quite a bit in a Victorian era. The mummies were you know, like a kind of like a picture on your wall for a certain elite economic strata in that culture. In the European culture, they would just have mummies in their houses. Have a dead guy over, a gal over there, you know, hang it out. So so what, so what does the pyramid?
How does this factor into my grand unified team of the paranormal? And for me, it says that an advanced race of beings inhabited the planet thousands of years ago, made some installations and used them for a period of time, and then for whatever reason left. They might not have left permanently, they might have actually just given over the surface of the planet to us, but they still maintained a contact with what's going on, and their vacation cabin,
so to speak, is subterranean. There are other interesting possibilities. The Moon has all kinds of mysteries that defy simple explanation, and when it comes to setting up bases on other planets, even NASA agrees that the first thing you would do to get safe haven for your interplanetary travelers is comfortably
ensconced them underground. You're protected from cosmic rays if you don't have an atmosphere, or if you have a thin one like Mars, and you can be warm, and you could fill it with breathable oxygen and then trap it in there and have safe haven. That would be much more spacious and reliable than anything you could bring with you by way of a module a capsule that you then set up so you would ensconce yourself underground.
If you arrived at a new planet and wanted to make.
An operating platform, it would be underground.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right back after these messages.
So you have an entire chapter in your book on crop circles, which I of course was delighted to see as well, because of again, this is in search of to me, and I love it all. I'll say again, I don't necessarily agree with it, but I love to hear people's is about it. And also this is one of those things in Bobo and I have talked about
this kind of a lot. I hear all sorts of people telling me about how bigfoots could or could not be real, and they have an extraordinarily limited scope of knowledge on sasquatches compared to like my nerd friends and Bobo, who is not a nerd. You're welcome. I'm learning Nora's tom but and you know it reminds you of Renee to hint it. You know, without the facts, your opinion is worthless. That's something that he is attributed to say more or less that and I am pleading ignorance right now.
I know almost nothing about the vast majority of these subjects, which is probably why I love the book and I enjoyed reading it so much, you know, because I can't say, well, that's nonsense or this.
Is I don't know.
I just I know nothing. I know nothing at all. If you wrote a big Foot book, I'd be very critical, I'm sure, because because I'm a one trick pony, I just do big Foot stuff. I don't know anything about anything else. I don't care. But it's to see crop circles arise again, because it seems like I'm sure there's a very nerdy group of folks looking into crop circles all the time, just like I am an English ass
watching all this other stuff. Now, they don't only happen in England though, right like so, But but they happen in England more than anywhere else. So why would that be?
Why would that be? We're pisters it.
It may be that the makers of the crop circles are not traveling across space, but rather they live here. And it may be too that these UAPs UFOs whatever you want to call them, may have originated from across the galaxy.
But it may be that they are actually from here.
Now that there is another realm, or some people say another dimension, which is a little bit misleading, because you can't have a you can't just live in one dimension. We occupy three before if you count time, right, sure, and but three physical dimensions. If there's a fourth physical dimension, then you would inhabit that as well as all the other ones. So you could have an interdimensional being, whatever
the heck that is. But again, a simpler explanation in my view, is that this dimension is just the subterranean realm. They may be three dimensional objects who eat beef and all the things that we do, but that they are reaching out to us and sending us communications by way of these crop circles, and we are invited to sort of understand them, and it's a test of our ability
to make sense of them. And when we do, then it's possible that we will come one step closer to actually getting to meet these beings that are right now staying in the shadows.
You see.
It kind of does go back to Sasquatch in that you have this behavior on the part of the Sasquatches, that is, they are actively avoiding us, and they are specifically actively avoiding us trying to take their picture. I for years tried to do just that, and then I reached out to some of these sensitives and we tried to.
Use lines of communication that are unspoken. Yeah, you go over this in The Edges of Science, which of course is building on your first book, The Locals, The Local. Back then, in the local time, you were more or less just a flesh and blood bigfoot guy.
I did have a thirteenth chapter which was called the Coconut Telegraph, and it was all about this nonverbal communication and that it's possible, and that there are quite a number of Sasquatch witnesses who feel that they have communication at times with these things that are out in their
outlying area. So I started looking into this, and I found that these people, which some people call horse whisperers, same thing, that they can tell what is afflicting the horse and health wise and recommend some therapies for the sick animal based on communication nonverbal communication with the horse. So these people often say, well, I can communicate with the Sasquatches too. So I said, all right, good, let's see you do it. And they said what do you
want me to say? And I said, well, I want you to ask him if we can take their picture. And so one of these guys, Bob Faust, who studied under Shamans in Hawaii, did just that. He said, we guy Edwards, and I went out to the woods with him and he did his little seance attempt and then he said, can we see you? And the answer was no, it's a rule. I've never been seen. It's considered a screw up, and I'm not about to screw up now, So no, you can't see us. And then Bob Faust said, well,
how many of you are there? And they response that he claimed was that, well there's two, there's just me and my son. Well where's your husband? And oh, he's gone. The Star people took him. Well is he coming back?
No, I don't know.
I don't know, but he went with the Star people. Okay.
So I wrote all this stuff down and I had this chapter on the Coconut Telegraph and one of my buddies, who was proofreading at their locals, said, I think.
You should leave that chapter out. It is not quite in the theme of all the other ones, I will say, And so he said, how about have that be the first chapter of your next book? And so I said, all right.
In a way I regret having done that, because now I would have I would not have had any regrets about rocking the boat at the time.
No, that's pretty tame compared to ill Man.
But anyway, so the coconut telegraph did appear in edges of signs.
So it wasn't that a Jimmy buff reference.
It is it is? It?
It references inter island communication using coconuts to do a Morse coke. Uh And so that when the islands were near enough to each other that they could hear the clocking, that they would actually update them on on fairly local matters like who's carrying on with who and who is behaving in a scandalous manner. And then sure enough, when you get to the other island, they already know who
you are because they heard from the coconut telegraphs. Anyway, so nonverbal communication and which is what you see crop circles And yes.
We've got a coconut wildless specialists today, right.
Uh So the crop circles are a test, a quiz of our willingness to sort of take it on and solve the riddles that are encoded in the crop circles. But there are things in the crop circles that suggest that they are very aware of aspects of our culture.
And one of those was this Arasibo message that was sent out into space by Carl Sagan and Frank Drake, and was supposed to be received by ancient by distant civilization and then they would presumably message back to us and given the speed of light, it would be twenty five thousand years. Well seventeen years after they sent the message, they got a crop circle that referenced that. And it defies human capabilities to make such a highly complex message
in wheat. People call it corn, but the English call all crops corn apparently, but it was actually in a wheat field, and it's really really complex. And they made changes to the message that was sent out into space as if to update it or correct it, and it gets very complicated without the ability to show illustrations, and mentioned the distinction the change from the original message and
then the crop circle. Now, when we say crop circle, their actual name is glyph because they're mostly not circles. And you know, anybody with a stick could make a circle in the wheat, but to make a highly complicated kind of glyph is a long way from making just a simple circle. So the word crop circle is sort of a shorthand that is okay to use, but it's
a little misleading at the same time. I understand why people go, oh, some drunk tavern owners went around and did that with a board, and it's like, no, no, they didn't.
Well, yeah, they filmed. Some people do it, of course. But you know, you look at the this information that's out there on Bigfoot documentary in Mexico Orpression.
Those twelve acres up in the mountains of Mexico, twelve acres are corn like during a forty five minute fog bank they appeared.
And it seems that it's not that different than the Nasca lines in Peru and all these other things which date back even as far as Eric von Dinikan and how he was going jeriots of the gods back in the seventies maybe late sixties.
And I think there is.
More and more willingness even on the part of some scientists to entertain the idea that that there are things that come and go from our realm. We live here, we're stuck here, but there are things that can come and go.
That's really they crush our food, give us a message. It seems kind of bizarre.
Well interesting, they don't the the plants are still able to grow in a in a genuine crop circle if it's somebody with a board. Then the plants are mutilated, you know, smashed, broken, they don't grow. But but the in genuine crop circles, at least the ones that the English researchers endorse as being genuine, the plants are completely still alive. And not only do the plants still grow even despite their bent shape, but when you take seed from those wheat stalks, it grows better than the seed
from just a general uh seed crop of wheat. So there's something that is being done to these plants in the process of making these these these glyphs, crop glyfts, crop circles, if you will.
Hey, nobodies to use the restroom. But he muted it, so you would never know that. So Bo just reached over and muted it and walked away. He muted it, then said I got to go take a leak and stood up. Well, maybe we should just carry on without him. For me, Yeah, I'm kind of thinking maybe, Well.
If it doesn't seem like Bobo's coming back, I guess you guys should just carry on and we'll get Bobo when we get Bobo.
Yeah, I mean, if he does come back, everybody will know because he'll hear it. But it's been it's been a significant amount of time. I think, more than enough time to take a leak or do anything else he has to do back in there. But you must have forgotten we're in the middle of a podcast.
Well, while we're switching subjects, I just want to commemorate the loss of a good friend and one of the best researchers of paranormal matters that I've ever met, and that's Henry Franzoni, who just died a few days ago.
Yeah.
Yeah, he checked out earlier in the week on Thursday. I guess is what I understand, and it is a great loss Henry. And we had him on the podcast years ago, years and years and years ago. Here we did two hours with the guy, and he's become a patron saint of the paranormal in a lot of way, I think.
You know.
I referenced him several times in Planet Strange, both about the subterranean realm because he had some knowledge on that, and then in the beginning of the book, I mentioned that he got me thinking about connections that I didn't see right away between the sasquatch and other phenomena that
we don't understand. And one of his points of view that I embraced was just that when we're searching for answers and we come up wanting, widen the search factor in other possibilities that seem unrelated but may not be. So that was his encouragement, and I certainly took his advice and that got me started on this new book, Planet Strange.
Yeah, Henry was a very good friend of mine. I love the guy because he was just so weird. It's so smart, you know. His ideas were just frankly bizarre, and I love that sort of stuff. I mean, I know, I kind of have a reputation of not like being a total curmudgeon and stuff as far as that goes, But that's not necessarily true. That's just other people's perception of me. I really do love weird stuff. I delight in it in a lot of ways.
So he sort of pioneered the idea that the Sasquatch are intelligent enough to avoid cameras, and he opened my eyes to that possibility while I was still trying to deploy cameras. And he definitely sort of endorsed the view
that no, they know exactly what you're doing. He did a really ambitious camera project in the Bull Run Watershed, which is where Portland's water comes from up in the Cascade Mountains, and so it's an off limits area that he got permission back when he was affiliated with Peter Byrne to put out a very elaborate camera system, and they had their cameras messed with repeatedly and sabotaged in ways that they felt were indicative of the fact that
the creatures knew what they were doing, and the creatures were averse to what they were doing, and they had the ability to sort of derail their technology.
Well, yeah, and you know, I think that deserves a mention as well, because even in my realm of bigfoot research, where I treat these as a biological thing and you can use the biological approach on them, he was right there at the beginning too. I mean he was instrumental in Peter Burn's big foot research project in the nineteen nineties,
which is where that camera project came from. Of Course, oddly enough, like ironically enough, I believe in fact check me of course, like everything else I say, but I believe Henry died on Peter Burn's birthday, what would have been his ninety ninth birthday, So there's a weird connection there too, which is kind of cool. And Henry, of course was instrumental in the early days of the Internet
and bigfoot. I mean, ninety nine percent of bigfooters today are Internet bigfooters essentially, and none of them would really be here in this present form if it wasn't for Henry, because what he kickstarted it was called the IVBC Internet.
Virtual Bigfoot Conference, right, and he was the coder who helped devise the whatever software you need to have this chat thing going.
On, because you were in there right at that time. I was, Bobby Shore was there, Doug Hichek was in there. Yeah, all the early luminaries were present. Even I was lurking. I never posted because of my shy and introverted tendencies, but even I was in there lurking around reading the greats at the time and what they were doing. So it was a fantastic time to be interested in bigfoot because the Internet was just starting to blossom, and Henry
was instrumental. I mean, if I think it's safe to say Bobo's coming, but I think it's safe to say that if Henry wasn't around, there would be no bfro o today, there would be none of this stuff online today. Oh, here comes Bob's he's coming out the slide and glass door. Come on out, man. He doesn't like soci out here because Bobo is adverse to dogs like licking. She's like, who the hell are you to tell me what to do? Don't worry about it this. Come join us for the
podcast because Tom has to leave. Got eight minutes. All right, Well Bobo's back, so any noise you here is Bobo settling himself in for example. For example, Well, Bubba, we're just talking about Henry Franzoni here, kind of giving us a small tribute to him. So yeah, we're going to re release that episode with Henry Franzoni in his honor this coming week, I guess.
So yeah.
I hope everybody enjoys it, and you can also see how far we've come, because I'm sure the sound quality isn't as good from those early episodes that we did that Henry is a part of compared to now. I'd like to think that, but then again, we're all holding around one microphone on my back porch right now, so maybe that's not the case.
Ask piece of birchais just passed aways. There's also Jelly of the Month club song with him.
Oh yeah, okay, all bigfoot music musician. A lot of deaths. It seems like everyone's gonna die. Me keep on rocking. Yeah, So there you go, There you go. That that's our tribute to Henry's He was a good friend, a good man, and he will be missed.
Yeah.
I can't even believe he's gone. Honestly, I know it was not old Now.
I got Susann Finerchik actually with his last book he had at his house. She got me the last one.
Oh that's nice. That's I read his last book, of course, and I read his first book. Henry was nice enough to give me a pre release copy of his first book actually, when he just bounded up at Kinko's or whatever like that before it was released. He gifted me that. Back in the day, he was a good friend. He came over to the house for parties. Sometimes we'd sit down stair, we play music. Sometimes he'd always come to the museum and he loved the museum, which was really nice.
You know. He always had good things to say, and he was also really encouraging to me. In a lot of ways, even though like he and I were pretty much diametrically was on Bigfoot, you know, like I would be hard to disagree with more with what Henry had to say about Bigfoot for me, right, but he was always encouraging to me, said, yeah, you keep doing what you're doing, man, like I hope you get an answer
because I never did. It was basically the jis, you know, and I loved it, just like what a neat guy. What a neat guy is individual to say the very least, they don't they broke the mold after Henry, that's for sure. Bit too, oh yeah, he and there's a little bit of Henry and Powell.
He definitely got me thinking, like I say, in directions that led to this uh recent book Planet Strange. And he was totally supportive of the view that that yes, there is an underground realm and it's well understood even in certain intelligence circles. His dad was a State Department employee and did all kinds of spy stuff State Department, Yeah it is, it is, but yes, he said, oh, yes,
an underground realm for sure. Uh, it's it's uh that a lot of the phenomena that we witness emanate from these entities that we share the planet with.
Could be so tell them If people want to communicate with you in any sort of way, add to what they read in your book, or share something that they've experienced, how could they do so? Esp Probably right?
Well, I do have an email address. It's th h O M dot P O W E l L at yahoo dot com. Other than that, the book is available at Amazon, Barnes and Noble, and the name of the publisher is Hangar One, which is owned by Doug Hichek, who lives in Minneapolis, Minnesota. I think the easiest way for someone to get their hands on a copy of the book is to go to Amazon or close museum.
Oh there you go.
Oh yeah, and the NBC, of course has autograph cops. Oh indeed, so we're a little special there.
Yeah.
You can get them off our online store.
Or you can click the link in the show notes, or.
You can click the link in the show notes, which is another good idea. You go, yeah, because I was outing for Matt Prude is always willing to supply the easy way out for you. Excellent. Any last words, let's see last words? Uh yeah, CNL, which is underground, I think.
I obviously I can't prove anything, but I believe that I've found a set of patterns that all points in the same direction, and that is that we share the planet with some sort of beings that that want to stay in the shadows for now, but is definitely leaving us clues as to their existence, their whereabouts, and perhaps
even their agenda. And little by little, I think they're just waiting for humanity to become sophisticated enough and worthy enough to join some sort of interdimensional or intergalactic community.
Well you know, whether that's true or not remains to be seen, but at the very least I know for a fact it's a lot of fun to think about, and I really did enjoy reading your book, So I would strongly recommend people checking out the planets Strange.
I think to me, the Sasquatch are a manifestation of this realm that it makes perfect sense to me that the Sasquatch and the extraterrestrials, if you want to call them nappy interdimensionals, do interrelate, and it may even be that there's a pecking order that the Sasquatch in a form do the heavy lifting but they are under their direction of a more powerful group of entities.
There you go. That's the Beyond and Bigfoot and Beyond. Sometimes we get a little complete. It's always Bigfoot and never beyond. All right, we'll suck on that for a while. Man, it's pretty done. That's a nutty thing to be talking about, and I absolutely love it. I hope everybody enjoyed this episode. Tom thinks so much for coming over to the house. It's always a pleasure to have you here. My pleasure hanging out with all of us here and sharing your thoughts with our listeners.
All right, we'll definitely be seeing you again. I like hanging out in your backyard. I'll be back over there. Excellent, excellent.
Well, I hope it made a difference. All right, Bob, But why don't you get us out of here and we can shut the recording.
Down here, take off leave. I'll surprimised you.
I live here, dud.
Okay, all right, folks, thanks for joining us, and thanks to Tom Powell. Are good bro. Check out his book. All right, see y'all next week. Keep it squashy.
Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, Please rate and review us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond that's an N in the middle, and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag Bigfoot and Beyond.