Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys are your favorites, so like to subscribe and raid it. Lip Star Sho and me rang just on yesterday and listening, oh watching them always keep its watching. And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay Bobo. Cliff, seems like it's been a while. So is that spoking to you? Yeah? Did the last episode you were you were just yeah, you're heading down to see those
snow tracks down on the pine. So I spoke to Angie the snow at Bigfoot Woman with the dermal prints and all that, and that was a good one. We got good feedback on that, so that went pretty well. Well cool cool. I wish I could say the same about the footprint investigation. Basically, the story was on Monday morning, the property owners went out to the guy went out to his truck to go to work in the morning about five thirty in the morning, and in the snow were these large footprints.
They were I did the math. I measured the guy's shoes. I had pictures of the guy's shoes with the prints in him. So I did a little bit of you know, fifth grade math basically, and I determined that the prints were about sixteen inches give or take a little bit, sixteen maybe seventeen somewhere in there. And so the guy was flabbergasted, just like, what is going on here? There were about five or eight five, six, seven eight prints in the driveway. The footprint that I said,
you guys, the photograph was by far the clearest. The rest of them were a little bit more melted out. But when I saw those, well, first of all, they're fresh, because the guy said that they weren't there the night before, and they were there in the morning, so they were fresh. Unlikely to be hoaxes, because like, who's going to go walk around in that, you know, I get three in the morning. I mean, maybe they're hoaxes. I don't know. It's hard to say.
There's not really enough to go on in the prints, unfortunately, But I say, okay, this is interesting because I know that they're fresh. And you know, if I go out to one of my spots and I walk around, if I find footprints out there, I don't know when they were put there. You know, I could guess based on erosion and wind and all that, you know, just wearing away in gravity, you can guess how long a footprint has been in the ground, but you really don't
know. So these circumstances where you know the night it was put down are fairly rare. I've had a couple of those in the last month or two, but they're fairly rare. So this was a really interesting opportunity. So I called Darby back in you know, North Carolina, to say, hey, this happened. This seems like an opportunity, and he says it actually
was. Because everybody's always ranting about e DNA. E DNA is going to solve this, and maybe it will, but at this point E DNA is pretty expensive, especially when you don't have a target species, cause again we're trying to prove that this target species even exists with DNA. So in order to get and then go through all the hoops and all that other jazz and figure out that there is an unknown primate species in there, well that's a
very very expensive proposition, very time consuming and expensive. But because part of
that thing is that there's so much other DNA in the woods. Like if I found footprints and I took the soil sample from underneath them, there's a lot of other animals that live in that wood, those woods there, like rodents and deer and bear and flying squirrels and birds and all sorts of other things, and their DNA is also everywhere, right So, and of course if we had a sample of the unknown species DNA, well, that kind of gives us a target, gives us a bullseye to aim for. That
would drop the costs significantly. I'm getting by the way. I know I'm kind of rambling, but I'm getting somewhere. Just bear with me for a second. So if we have a target, it would drop the costs and the time and all the effort significantly. But we don't have that at this
point. But the snow print offer a unique opportunity, I've been informed because unlike footprints in the mud, where everything in their mother's walking around through the woods and leaving their DNA and sloughing off skin cells and breathing and doing all these biological things that leave DNA traces on snow, if as long as the foot did not pushed through the snow layer and touched the ground, the vast majority of the DNA that would be in that footprint in the snow would be
from the foot that made that footprint. It wouldn't be contaminated, or if that's even the right word, it would be mostly the target species that left the footprint. So that's a unique opportunity. I didn't I wasn't really aware of this until I spoke to Derby about it. Beat up a. Darby's brilliant. He has all sorts of interesting insights and thoughts, and so I called him and I said, well, this is an interesting opportunity, and
he totally agreed. So I got together a snowprint e DNA kit pretty quick, you know, at the local Walgreens. I went and went shopping real fast, and did all sorts of sterilization procedures and stuff the night before, got everything ready to go. One of my employees, my friend Tyler, he hopped in the car with me the next morning and we drove the three and a half hours, yeah, three hours and twenty minutes one way to La Pine to find that all the snow had melted, unfortunately, and there
was no trace. There were some other marks nearby. Some of them were clearly boot marks. I don't think that that's that was what we're dealing with. So there were some other larger marks that may have been rather melted out, and you know, ambiguous prints. They were about the right size, about the right kind of the right shape, and about the right distance. But basically at the end of the day went down there for pretty much nothing.
Yeah, but that's that's bigfooting. I've been on such a role lately that you know, iways due for a bad trip, so to speak. Yeah, even on fire. I got to go out and talk to Dave McCoy so McCoy son from the back in the sixties, the forest the cat driver out there, the forestry engineer. Oh yeah, yeah, I know exactly who Phil McCoy is. I don't know if our audience does, though, because we have a lot of kind of new bigfooters that praps aren't as
familiar with the bigfoot history. Yeah, if you look back at the sixties, he was integral, like he was an integral figure and all that. And when he was a bulldozer operator for the forcers, and he ended up working as went through like head engineer of the roads out there for six rivers, real respected guy, excellent tracker, excellent hunter. And he found Prince
and he actually cast over fifty casts at eight different locations. Yeah, so he was out there during that time, and like he met with mel Hester and those guys down in the early sixties down the high up Palm he met that's where he first met Roger Patterson back in like sixty three, I guess, looking at the high end palm tracks. Stayed in touch with them. He was a cohort of Al Hodgson, who own the store Wheelkrek. That was kind of like he was like the main guy, like the you know,
pre internet and all that. He was kind of like a focal point for exchanging. Anyone that was looking for Bigfoot Bluff Creek area Humble would stop and see Al Hotson and when you left, you to report whatever you found. So he kind of was the gather of all the information around there and still was one of those trusted like cohorts. Yeah, and still got over
eight different tracking events. He got over fifty casts, and he had multiple repeats of one with like a mangled foot with a missing toe and it wasn't it doesn't look the same as a cripplefoot, you know, cast from up in the Blues. But so anyways, he just heard from one of his cousins that she might have some of the casts stored down in the Bay Area. Oh wow, that's great. Yeah, like maybe three or four or
something. Still, I mean that that's you know, any cast from that time period is of great interest, just because that was the eight Day of big footing, was when everything was getting going and everything was new. At that point, there wasn't you know, you know, like say, for example, now, if we found a footprint and there was a nice mid tartal pressure ridge, it would not be nearly as big a deal as something
from the nineteen sixties because that the doctor Meltrim's work is publicly available. But back then that was unknown, that was unheard of. So that early evidence offers us an interesting glimpse and an opportunity for congruence in the evidence between what they found then and today what we now know today based on the people whose shoulders we stand upon. Yeah. Yeah, so I'm really looking forward to seeing what comes from that. Excellent Axully sod did you get to see any
photographs or anything like that? No? No, Now, of course Sill's dead. Who did you speak to his son? Dave? And Dave was there when they came out with when Roger and Bob came out and called Al. They also called Sil and Dave was twelve years old, went with his dad to will Kirk and they went to the restaurant there and met up with It was him, Al, his father and Roger and Bob. Wow.
That's great, Yeah, they said. He he said, if Roger Patterson got if Roger Patterson got hoax, he sures hected know it because he was eyes popping out of his head. He was so excited and just wound up high energy and yeah. Then he so he just said, he goes, there's no way he was part of it. If he got hoax, he wasn't part of it. That's what he kept saying. Oh wow. So so just to be clear, he saw Roger that same day. Yeah, when Roger came out and met with Al, he met with Alan Sill and
still brought his son. Wow. Wow. So that's actual, firsthand, you know, witness of the events that day that we've only heard about, you know, right. Yeah. And he's funny, he didn't really remember Bob too much about Bob, you know, He's like, so I just knew Roger because Roger had been to our house a couple of times in the early sixties and you know, his father knew him and he knew him,
and he also said he had John Green. He knew his dad really was good friends with John Green, and John Green had been down there a few times at their place. Now, for our listeners, if you're wondering who we're talking about, I know Bobo explained a pretty good riff about who sil McCoy is. But you've probably seen sil McCoy. Sil McCoy is in a very famous photograph, a couple of different photographs actually with Bob Titmas back from
the early nineteen sixties. One of the photographs is Bob Titmas and a gentleman sil McCoy on a porch of a cabin or a shack or something like that, with some footprint casts in front of them. Those footprint casts are the high im Palm prints from April nineteen sixty three, and that is sil McCoy. I believe sil McCoy is also in another photograph with Bob Tipmos from taking at the same place at the same time. I don't know who the photographer
was, so maybe it's John Green. So these pictures are in John Green's books and they're holding up two footprint casts and with the caption if I remember right, something like two feet equals a yard because they're only two of the footprint casts together, and that with a yardstick over it and showing how large
they are, and it is kind of a play on words there. But that is sil McCoy, just in one of these unsung heroes of bigfooting that was doing it forever and didn't write any books he did, didn't do any TV spots or anything, so very few people know about him and his work. So it's fantastic that you got a hold of a relative of sil McCoy. Now I spoke to I think it was Charlie McCoy. Is that right? Is that another brother brothers? Yeah, I spoke to Charlie, like
maybe last year. I got a hold of his number because of the of the footprint photographs that came to me via doctor Russ Jones from Edie Gardner, who's an elderly woman out now. She lives out in West Virginia, but she grew up in the Trinity Alps basically, and it was on her mother and father's property that the high and palm prints were cast were found and cast.
And she told me that her mom was out there working while her father was She was like clearing brush or something on the property and a new, newly bought property, and her dad was at work and she got her mom got all sketched out something that was watching her. She didn't know what it
was. And so then she found footprints and she called, I believe she called Sil McCoy to come take a look, and because her no, no, she called her husband, who I think worked with Sil McCoy, and then Sil came out still by the way, short for Sylvester if you don't know, Sil came out with Bob Titmus, who cast those footprints. So yeah, Sill McCoy was all over the place and his offspring are still out
there and sharing the stories. Yeah, Eric from the Bigfoot Museum and Will Looker he's the one that set it up, and he's really you know, trying to dig into this stuff like that. That's fantastic. I mean, that's why that's what we do here at the NABC, of course, but down there, you know, that's the epicenter. That was like ground zero in a lot of ways. So I'm glad that Eric kind of taken the
lead on that. I also had a conversation with Eric this past week, kind of a comparing notes on museums and all that sort of stuff, and we're going to try to get together at some point and maybe flesh out some opportunities for both of us, you know, either share resources or you know, I said, anything I can do for you, let me know, because you know, I don't view any other Bigfoot museum as competition. I view it as part of the team, so to speak, you know,
doing God, doing God's work. So he'd seem like it seemed like a really cool guy. Yeah, he wrote, he's he's a member of the NABC actually, so that's how I met him. He wrote me a private message on our Patreon page, and I reached out and I said, here's my number, give me a call. And I spoke to him just a few days ago, I guess maybe last week. Yeah. Really nice guy. So I'm going to try to make it down to Willow Creek this summer at some point, so I'll let you know when that happens. And I'm
particularly interested in going into bluff to see what's burned and what's not. Yeah, definitely. Yeah, a lot of people are been telling me they're going in there, and I said, well, good, take pictures, show me what's going on. I'm really interested in seeing, you know, because with with Man, if all the folio is burned away, that place is so prone to landslides. I'll be very surprised if any of those roads survive, especially in the burnout areas. Oh dude, it's going to be ugly.
It's gonna be other going out there. Well, I'm looking forward to checking it out and just you know, sitting on on the hood of my jeep and weeping quietly as I often do. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and
Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after these messages. Oh man, So something else has happened since I spoke to you last the North American Bigfoot Center here we did a booth at the Sportsman Show, the Pacific Northwest Sportsman Show, which is one of these like hunting, fishing, boat shows sort of thing, and boy, it was a grueling, punishing gig.
I will tell you that. You know, It's one thing doing one or two days at a Bigfoot conference and having people come up and say hi to me for twelve hours a day, But it is another thing to have sixty thousand people pass through the Expo Center here in Portland, and ten percent of them twenty fifteen percent of them are oh, Bigfoot, that's cool. I didn't know there's a Bigfoot museum. And there's another full ten to twenty percent of the people who are just like rolling their eyes at me and just
muttering what an idiot under their breath. For the most part, the reception was was maybe lukewarm, but a couple of people were quite interested, and I on Saturday, I took twelve sighting reports, and people seem like the skeptics seemed very shocked at that. They say, well, dude, look at look around man, we're at a hunting fishing show. Certainly there are
a lot of witnesses here. A couple of the guides, notably some guides from Alaska, came up to me and shared some vocalizations they recorded and their stories. Oh cool. Did you get copies? Yeah? Yeah, they send them to me. Yeah. And then he also previously sent it to Dave Dave Ellis too, so he had already has copies, which is kind of nice. I was kind of wandering around, just you know, tripping out and getting out of the booth, because man, those are long days,
like ten twelve hours, and those that cement booth. You know, hey, have you heard the big Foot Museum yet? Like what pushaw and like walking away and rolling their eyes like that gets a little old. But I was walking around and went up to a BC booth, a British Columbia guide, and said, hey, have you ever seen a sasquatch? And he like looks at me and he go, I don't really talk about that stuff unless I know who I'm talking to. I go, oh, I'm
Cliff. I was some nerd on some TV show and I have the booth over there, blah blah blah, and he goes and then he goes, no, I haven't seen one, but here's my stories. And then he sat and he told me like four stories. You know, he hadn't seen one, but he found beautiful prints in the clay and all that sort of
you know that kind of thing. A lot of people, once you get past that non you know that that gruff exterior, have half I mean, so many of those people have stories, but gosh, a couple very interesting things popped up. One. I don't know if he's listening or not. I thought he said he was a listener some guy name who Do was? His name's a Humboldt character. I'll say that, you know, and you
know the type bobes. He's like probably sixties or something like that, sixties, that decade year old, you know, big, big, sort of not quite a cowboy hat, not quite a crazy person. Happen somewhere in between. He was talking about seeing one down I think it was southern Humboldt somewhere, kind of down by honeydew somewhere. If he saw one there run a walk across the road right in front of him, and he talked to
him for quite a while. He told me about friends of his and Shasta that have a big footprint that they cast on their property or nearby their property. So he said he was going to look into that. We'll see if he does or not. That'd be cool. So who Do if you are
listening, got my eye, I'm waiting for you to call. There was There was one guy though, who I really wanted to talk about on the podcast because he said that he was as a ten year old boy in the early nineteen seventies, he was given a cast and then a few years later another cast, and he doesn't know if they're originals or if they're copies.
But what he does remember is that they come from a property by Lake Merwyn, which is just south of you know, Mount Saint Helens Lewis River area, from a property there that had bigfoots popping by every once in a while. And I was thinking to myself, the only other thing, the only other Lake Merwin casts that I am aware of at all, let alone from the sixties and seventies, is from that same property that Roger Patterson used to
go to. He had he had friends down on Lake Merwin and like the Lewis River somewhere that he would go by and they and I believe, if I remember right, Roger either cast prints down there on the property or maybe got prints from the property owners. And I'm wondering, could these casts, first of all, be original, That would be fantastic if there's something unknown
from the data set. It's always great to expand the data set. But could it be that these are from the same property, they're for the same bigfoots or maybe even the same casting events. He says he doesn't remember anything about him because they're in boxes somewhere, but he says that the information is written on the back of the cast. So really really interesting stuff. I've
got a few leads to Oh here's another one. I'm so sorry I'm dominating the conversation, but man, so much happens in my life Bigfoot related. So I just spoke to this guy about an hour ago. Actually I called him right before we became on the air. Here this one gentleman, the names Marv. Real nice guy, super nice guy. He's a local guy. He came up to me and was asking questions, and he eventually shared
with me that he saw one of these things. Now he's in his early sixties, but he saw one of these things in nineteen actually two sasquatches. In nineteen seventy three. He and his father were doing a horseback ride around Timothy Lake in Mountain Hood National Forest. Timothy Lake is still very active today, particularly the south side of the lake on the border of the reservation,
the Warm Springs Reservation over there. But they were doing they were circumnavigating the lake on horseback, and at one point, about two thirds of the way around, they got off the horses and just took a break. And he was a young man, well, he was a boy. I think I think he said he was like, I don't know ten or something. I forget how old he was at that point, because I forget how old he
is now. He could probably do the math and figure it out, but I'm not gonna so Anyway, he gets off the horse and he's hanging out with his dad or whatever, and then he's something catches his eye, and long story is short, about one hundred yards away, on hundred and fifty yards away, he sees a head of a sasquatch looking over a log. Then like it keeps bobbing up and down and like you know, hiding and then peeking over the top and stuff. And he's going, no way,
you know, look at that. And then to the left of it, he sees something else catches his eye and there's another one, you know, a short distance away from the first, behind a tree, and it keeps poking his head out from behind this tree. Well, he calmly walks over to his horse, pulls out his Kodak one ten camera and snaps two pictures of these things. He told me straight out. It's like, yeah, they're not good pictures there, you know, Kodak one ten film camera at
one hundred yards or one hundred fifty yards, but they're in there. They're not good pictures. They're not going to convince anybody. But and so I asked him, and he's currently looking for those photographs in the storage boxes, so he would share them with the NABC and so we'd be putting them on display at some point. Oh. I just love that kind of thing, like, even if they're not good, they're clearly not going to be great pictures, right, maybe there's no question about that. But how cool is
that? You know? It fits really nicely with another display we hear we have here at the NABC that you've seen where this guy went backpacking it like Abount Jefferson and he was getting followed by something he never saw it, and he found a footprint and then he found handprints in the snow and that scared him so bad he left. And he gave me the original polaroid handprints that are hanging on the wall, and also the actual camera that he took those
photographs with. And you know, it's not groundbreaking, it's not earth shattering in any way or anything like that. It's just cool little tidbits of history, you know, And that's the kind of thing that I just love displaying that kind of thing in the NABC. So it sounds like we have a lead on another one of these things as well, with this gentleman Marv from
Timothy Lake. So I'm looking forward to seeing those. Yeah, for all old cast stars, I've always been like, oh, my uncle Cass went back in the seventies or whatever, like they almost I think I've only seen like one ever turn up, you know, like where they you know, let's surround somewhere that they could never find it from my experience, very very rare, very very rare. Oh and you know, and I know that we have a lot to do, and I blah blah blah, Clif's just
blabing the entire time, and I'm so sorry about this. But here's another interesting thing that's happened in the last week or two. Kenny Brown bigfoot out in Ohio. Super nice. Sky know the entire Brown family I considered to be friends. I see him at the Ohio conference every single year, and I know they're listening. So oh they're wonderful, right and they're listeners. So Hello Browns, Hello Browns. Love you anyway. Kenny wrote me and
said Hey, Cliff, somebody has some stomp on eBay. I go, oh really, And I took a look at him, and I go, oh my god, yeah, look at those. And the story on eBay is a little bit different than what I got in person. But the long and short of it, he wanted way too much money for him. Then he didn't get it, and then he dropped the price to another number that was still way too much, and he didn't get that one either. So I wrote him a private message and said, hey, I have a museum,
can want to work something out. And long story short, we work something out. And so I got another pair of fake stompers. Now now the quest, I guess is to learn more about them, because I have some suspicions about them at this point, and I need to get them verified. What area, that's just it. That's just it. He got them in not central organ but like western Oregon, but like, you know, southern Oregon. I guess you know. And I have about a seventeen minute
interview with the gentlemen that our lovely and talented volunteered. Joanna at the museum here is currently transcribing with all the information, so she's working on that right now. But basically he got them in about you know, the numbers are fuzzy. Obviously, he's this gentleman's in his seventies and he's thinking back decades. The numbers are a little fuzzy, but he's guessing that probably about nineteen sixty eight he was given these stompers. Okay, he in the initial eBay
listing, he said that those were made in the forties. Am I doubt it? I doubt it. I think that they were made in the fifties or early sixties. But I could be wrong about that. But I'm going to be finding out more real sooner. I'll get to that. So this guy basically was given these fake stompers that were already used at the time. So somebody had been hoaxing some stuff. They're pretty big. They're about seventeen eighteen inches long. This guy got the stompers and he went out and hoaxed
some stuff a couple of times. Like most he said, he was never caught, except for one time he was caught in Idaho hoaxing some prints. And so I have all that information written down and everything like that. But he got them while working at a mill and the owner of the mill was a guy named Don Boswell. Yeah, and there's a Boswell senior and junior.
And if you look up Don Boswell, the thing that comes up is that story from Longview, Washington, No no, No, from Toledo, Washington about Ray Wallace dying and all that other stuff, and it mentions Boswell in conjunction with Rant Mullins, the other hoaxer. There's a picture of Rant and doctor Jeff Meldrum's book Sasquatch Lesson Meet Science with the two stompers. Those stompers he carved for a night. He probably had those before, but he
used them in nineteen eighty two for like a news piece or whatever. We have those nineteen eighty two original stompers with Rant Mullens autograph on the back of them, on display in the North American Bigfoot Center. Now, these these are older than that, much older than that. And Don Boswell supposedly went hoaxing with Rant Mullins. These very well could be another set of Rant mullins
Is stompers or Ray Wallace's stompers. I don't know which yet. But this coming weekend, through a wonderful friend of mine named Darlene, she has now arranged me meeting Don Boswell, who is one hundred and one years old, along with Dale Lee Wallace. You know, I think that's what is its
rays Sun or nephew or something like that. I'm going to meet both of these gentlemen this week and have a lengthy story written heckle full heckling full interview with these guys because I'm probably pretty foolish to them because I think sasquatches are real, and they're both completely confident that each of them invented it. Oh god, yeah, so we'll see, we'll see. But the thing is Boswell was hoax and stuff in the in the in the sixties. You know,
he was hoaxing. He was hoaxing things down in northern California. So I'm hoping to find out where and win as closely as possible to try to track down some of these things, and like, for example, these I have a sneaky suspicion that these particular stompers that I have may have been the stompers or may have been behind the one footprint cast that Barbara Wasson got that I am in possession of because I owned the Barbara Wasawson collection, you know,
yeah, I have not pulled out the cast yet because this is my first day back of work, and the stompers that were at work, so it didn't come back here this weekend for a change. So I need to take these home today and I'm going to compare them. But still, the guy told me that he hoaxed several times around southern Oregon, and the time period matches when this guy was hoaxing the area kind of matches. He told me that there was a group of three bigfoot researchers that would come out.
Walt told me this, by the way, about these prints that I have, these stompers. Walt told me that there were a group of three Sasquatch researchers that would come out whenever he made these prints, because he would just call him and say that, hey, there are in the ground. He didn't say, I'm lying to you, I'm hoaxing. He would. He would he would lie to these three bigfoot researchers to come out, and then those bigfoot researchers would give him like twenty bucks for reporting it to him.
It's like, wow, that's that's shady. First of all, but second of all, who were these three guys? He couldn't remember their names. He didn't remember what they looked like or anything. He just remembers were these three researchers that were really interested in fresh footprint finds. So he said when unemployment ran out, every once in a while he would go stomping around and share them crazy stuff. Right. Yeah, Yeah, Hopefully I'm going to
get to the bottom of these stompers in the next week or two. Hopefully I will have a little bit more information, because you know, I mean, if any of that early you know, early sixties stuff from like say Bluff Creek or somewhere down there, or the high imp palm stuff for that matter, any of that stuff, although high MP Palm I'm confident aren't aren't
hoaxed. There's some really tell tale features in there. But some of the other stuff kind of on the fence about you know, there's some things that I suspect were hoaxes, some things that I don't know but I'm open to him be hoaxes, and there's some other things that clearly are not. So I always think about Matt Moneymaker, and for different reasons than you always think
about Mat Moneymaker. But one of the reasons that I think about Matt Moneymaker is one of the one of the things he's said that just rings so true. He always said it when applying to footage, but I say it applying to footprint casts. He always said that to be an expert in real bigfoot footage, you have to be an expert in fake bigfoot footage. And I really feel the same about footprints as well. To be an expert in real sasquatch prints, you have to be an expert or at least learn as much
as you can about fake bigfoot footprints. Absolutely, stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bobo. Will be right back after these messages. Yeah, so we we We're gonna look at what's in the news. Yeah, what's the latest things color last several weeks. We have a small number of articles, which is good because we actually don't have much time. I've been talking the whole time. So would you like to start with any particular
article, Bobo. The one that caught at first was the humor one where the largely great apes like oranguta's, chimps, bonobo's and gorillas will tease each other, especially the younger ones, like how humans tease like different than play but actually teasing. Yeah. Yeah, this particular article, the one, the version we read, it was all over the news for a minute. There was from USA today. I'm not sure what the date was on there. I guess it doesn't really matter, but it was a study kind of
pointing out that apes play, which isn't that big of a deal. It makes a lot of sense to me. I mean, I think actually when I shared this with you, you you kind of said something to the effect of duh, you know, and and and rightly so, and rightly so. But what does this have to do with bigfoot exactly? You know? I think that is the interesting conversation to be had. I'm convinced that bigfoots
have sentences in here. I mean, I know people and people that have like a lot of repeating, like you know, visitations and that sort of thing. Everyone that has a long term internationally and say they have like they like to play pranks, they like to hide things, hydro tools, hide things of yours then put them back somewhere else maybe different. Uh, that's the That's the main thing I know about him, like, you know,
doing stuff like that. And my dad heard that one those ones laugh in New Mexico when he was putting on a change in his underwear and he was pulling, you know, it was like freezing cold out, like he's like twenty something degrees out and he's but naked trying to pull his jockeys on and his toil got his uh, the waste waistband got got caught between his big
tail and his second toe. And we went to pull up and made him pitch for and fall and from the barn and he heard that he who and then all the like it sounded like the big ones scolded the little ones. And then when my dad yelled, I heard the yell, and then we heard the running. They were in the hayloft of the bar. They just ran out the back and jumped down and they ran off. And that's where the big one stepped on a sheet of sheet metal and crinkled it. And
it was fifteen and a half inches. It wasn't like a perfect outline of the foot, but you can see where the heel and the big tail and everything was. Yeah, but I was like, yeah, those little bastards were laughing at me when I fell. I heard that from a lot of people that they liked to screw it out you like, you know, play little games. A couple of things popped out to me when I read this article. Well, first of all, it said that it wasn't like when
they were observing the behavior that they interpreted as play. It was interesting because at one point, here's a quote from one of the people that one of the researchers, we were actually able to use the video we had and look through the video to find places where the apes were interacting with one another in a way that wasn't fully play and wasn't fully aggression. It was sort of
somewhere in the middle. To finish the quote. I think that out right there is interesting, very interesting actually, because when you think about the purported, the reported sasquatch behaviors out there, how many of these people are just like It makes me wonder how many human witnesses are misinterpreting what the sasquatches are doing. Oh low, maybe, or or maybe you'd be a fool to
go out there and interpret it as play. But maybe some of these aggression displays are actually this Bigfoot's messing with you and having fun, which is kind of what I've been wondering about for quite a while. I think that might be the case, but at the same time, maybe that might be a foolish thing to assume if one's actually pretty pissed at you. H yeah, because uh, I mean throwing, throwing rocks, you know, slapping the outside of houses. You know, that's kind of aggressive and it's kind of
playful. It depends on how you want to interpret it really depends on how the sasquatch means it. But we don't know that. There's no way to know that. What about touching the tents, you know, that seems like a curiosity thing, but you know, from if you're scared inside of a tent, that could be very It could be interpreted as aggression, right yeah, I think I think scared, like scared humans. To them, it was like, oh it's good time, It's time to screw with these These
ones are going to be fun to mess with, right right. So another thing that I thought was interesting is that they said that they couldn't prove it, but it seems that the young ones do it more. Oh yeah, and I think we see that in sasquatch behavior too, right, absolutely, absolutely, yeah. It seems like the ones that screw around are five to seven and seven and a half feet tall, but usually like around the you know, five to six and a half, I'd say is the most five
to seven and then just seven and a half. But if people are accurate in their descriptions, yeah, those are the ones that are especially like because I've always thought that you know that they get together like like maybe like young lions or the males will pack up until they're you know, when they're out, when they're too big in the family pod then but not being enough to have their own you know, separate zone, we'll get there like lions and
pala around. And those are the ones that the natives say, really screw with you like love to just play high jinks and stuff. That's why I always thought a lot of those road crossings are the smaller ones where they ran
right in front of the car, like on a lonely country road. As always convinced there's their buddies are like high five of them on the side, like see how close out like they just most love it when I see a car lock up it spreaks and skid or just here the as a car pass cycle on here, you know, coming from out inside the vehicle always you know, well, is that I'm sure they get off on that. We'll find out someday in the future, hopefully, but I think that's what I
think it is. Well, apparently they mostly had they I think completely had video of juvenile apes, which kind of skewed their data unfortually, so they're not sure if juveniles do it more than I would agree. I think juveniles do it more in that I think you can safely, you know, like at least guess that, maybe not assume that, but guess that based on human behavior, because we can't forget we're apes. We that is our family. We share so many of our behaviors with the other great apes. That's
why that's one of the many reasons it's so interesting to study them. It's because we learn more about humans, you know, and that's obviously true in humans, that the juveniles are more playful and whatnot. I thought that was
really interesting. And of course with all these stories of juvenile possibly juvenile sasquatches and whatnot, and you know, I have to reflect upon, you know, our one of our research spots, we've been finding a twelve inch footprint, a lot a lot more than the fourteen although we've been finding the fourteen as well, and then maybe once we have evidence of a big male in the area, so that goes to that juvenile thing, Like not only are
they perhaps you know, more careless or whatever, they probably play a little bit more. Maybe that's probably maybe that's why more sign is left, or maybe that's why they they are less careful because they're playing, you know.
I mean, at the end of the day, a six foot human probably is very similar, especially in like let's say a six foot human male, Okay, that probably has the build of a juvenile sasquatch in some sort of way, because I think that the females are probably much stockier and bigger, like linebacking like Patterson Gimlin's film subject sort of thing. But like most most
humans aren't built like that. Most humans six feet tall or whatever, we're gonna be thinner, and that that sort of thinner build might be more resembling of say a teenage you know, teenage animal so sorry worth human or sasquatch. So maybe that's where it comes from, you know, like some sort of natural inclination is like, well, something that's that tall and built like that is probably not fully grown and therefore another juvenile And I'm gonna play with
it. Yeah, definitely, I'd agree with that. Now that the study also showed that the apes engaged at eighteen distinct teasing behaviors that were used to elicit a response from the thing it was teasing, like waving and swinging body parts or objects right in the other animal's face, or hitting or poking the other animals like the other apes, or staring closely into a the rapes faces, disrupting target's movements, and pulling out the hair. We're all frequently seen
as teasing behaviors. How many of those, Bobo have you heard in Sasquatch reports? Waving arms or hands, swinging body parts, getting close to somebody's face, not that, not not that so much poking or hitting something, staring really hard, you know that kind of stuff, or getting in the way of their movements, pulling hair, any that, Any of that suffering
a bell to you. Yeah, Like the slapping, like with ay, they'll slap like someone sitting on a tripically might slap the branch next to him or something even or well, yeah, we'll think about slapping the outside of houses, you know, That's what I was thinking. Yeah, that'd be real similar, getting close and staring. I mean maybe not close like those those others are like not that close, but they'll stare it. They'll stare you down, you know, like they'll but I think that's that is more
of an intimidation than play, when they stare you down. It definitely could be. Now here's something that that they observed in some of the apes that that I've heard a couple far flung stories, but these are definitely outliers.
Okay. One of the things that they observed in these apes would be like making themselves look silly in a way in the in the in the article here, it mentions that children start doing playful things that push boundaries in different ways, like they might take a shoe and put it on their head as a
hat and find that hilarious. Have you heard any sighting reports, because you've heard a lot of stories in your time, you know, have you heard any reports of people seeing sasquatches of them with them doing something strange, you know, like using like I don't know, putting a shoe on top of the head for a hat or something like that, some ridiculous thing like that.
Have you heard any of that before? Not? That comes out the top of my head, gotcha, because I've heard one or two stories about them maybe putting the clothing on themselves, kind of like you see orangutans do every once in a while. I think one of them came from that Janice Carter book if I remember right. Is that sound familiar? I've heard I've heard those, but I've never talked to the person. I just read a
few things like that. Okay, I don't know, I don't know, but anyway, Yeah, very interesting article and it does kind of bring up some interesting questions about the way people interpret sasquatch behavior. And I don't I don't want to be the person to say, oh, they're just playing with you and then somebody goes out and gets their arm broken or something like that.
Sasquatch, you know. But at the same time, maybe it's kind of like what you know with our Australian friends, like the early Like a lot of the aUI researchers comment about how dangerous and all that so other yawis are, and you know, maybe they are, or maybe they're just afraid of them because of you know that putting that fear in front of you makes all the behavior seem aggressive, you know what I mean, and people here in North America clearly do that as well, especially out in the dark,
and they don't see the aggressor and there's something they're making noise and banging around and stomping and throwing things. Maybe it's fun. Maybe it's fun for the Sasquatch and it's just playing, you know, because you know, bullies probably have a good time when they're bullying, for example. Oh yeah, yeah, well, I don't know. It seems like most of the play with the Great Apes Sin in general was like what they refer to as playful teasing.
And you know, a five and a half six foot sasquatch is going to look at us and want to bully us. I'm sure you know, you think, especially like a five or six short because they can't really bully a too many other big foots, but they can bully a human. Yeah, no problem with kind of whimps at the end of the day. Anyway. Yeah, I thought that was an interesting article, So maybe it does shed a little bit light on Sasquatch behavior in some sort of way. But
again, I'm not going to test that hypothesis. If something is out there being seemingly aggressive with me, I will probably act accordingly and not just saying, oh, he's just playing with us, yeah, because that could be a fatal mistake. I think, yeah, it potentially could be. I'm not too worried about it, not too worried about it, but I don't
know. You've had them pretty like think about your first encounter up there, you know, like, what if that was his play and messing with you, which I'm sure they were messing with you, but you're scared, right, Oh God, yeah, they weren't playing. They were intimidating or were they on that one? I feel pretty confident saying they were pure intimidation on that one, And I think that's probably the safer guests to go go with, I think in any case, So anybody out there, don't go,
oh, they're just playing with me. You don't say that about brown bears either, right, It's like, oh, they just want to lick me. They're just looking me because they love me. It's like, no, No, they're looking to you because your food. Like you should always treat that large wild animals with the utmost respect and keep your distance whenever possible. And if they're playing with you, let them have their fun, but you you place you play it safe, right, That's my advice, and that's
what the lawyers told me to say. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back after these messages. How about that archaeology story about the England's oldest footprints. Yeah, man, that really puts back Hominin's being in that in that I mean, that pushes the bar so
far back in time. It's a It's really interesting because I used to like always be like kind of like, man, they make these like definitive statements about these things were at this time and there was no humans or anything like that during these you know, millennia, And I always thought like, they're so cocky sounding when they say these things, and I know it's like until further notice, you know, it's all that's always the deal. But yeah,
I mean I'm not surprised. I'm never surprised when I hear stuff like that that things are pushed way back, you know, like estimates of time
and that sort of stuff. Yeah. And this particular is basically that this particular news article basically states that what is it one hundred and forty miles northeast of London in the u K. Footprints were found of a homin nin, a human ancestor that they're saying are are almost certainly Homo antecessor, which is the last common ancestor that we know of, because you know, human evolution, it absolutely happened, but it's still called a theory not a law,
because we're still we're still kind of putting together the puzzle pieces. How it happened, that's the question. Not if it happened. That's not a question anymore. It's how it happened. So we believe at this point that Homo ancestor was probably the last common ancestor between Homo sapiens that's us and Neanderthals basically,
so a common ancestor between our species and Neanderthals. So but the fact that these were there in the UK is pretty cool, and the fact that they left footprints really, you know, perked my ears up as well, because I'm very interested in a hominin footprints to see if there's any similarities between sasquatch footprints and other hominins in general, most particularly like when the arch developed.
I think that's a very interesting question because I think it was much more recently than a lot of other folks who are suggesting out there, like did you know, for example, that they're saying that some textbooks, literally text books lists, that Homo erectus had a developed arch, But that is from what I understand, that is without any evidence whatsoever, because they don't have any feet bones, like, they don't have like a complete foot skeleton of
Homo erectus, So they're they're kind of walking on they're kind of guessing on that one. Well, I thought direct is one of the ones that we had one of the most. Oh, I think we do. I think we do, but I don't believe we have we have enough foot skeletons, skeleton like foot fossils to make that assumption at this point. But yet that's literally in textbooks. I remember having a conversation with Meltrium about that, and you know, but maybe that textbooks was ten years old. Maybe they found
some stuff. In the meantime, If anybody listening, because you know, there's a few hundred people listening to this podcast, if anybody out there listening has access to a paper or something describing foot structure of Homo erectus, I'd love to see it. I'm always interested in that kind of thing. You can email it to Matt Pruitt, our producer here at Bigfoot to Beyond podcast at gmail dot com and then he will forward it to me. I would
love to hear about any of that sort of stuff. I'm also really interested in learning about paranthropist footprints. But our feet, I should say, footbones, but there's not a lot of stuff out there about them either. There's a few, there's a few isolated bones, but nothing nothing you can really piece together, so to speak. But anyway, the fact that I think here the interesting thing of anecessor being in the UK, there's evidence of this
at the UK. In the UK because of the dating of these footprints about a million years ago or so. That's of interest, probably at least to the UK researchers, because I think at this point, like I'm thinking, there probably aren't Sasquatches in the UK. I don't know how you feel, Bobo, but I'm feeling there probably are not Sasquatches in the UK. But
a whole lot of people believe that to be true. There's a lot of UK researchers out there, and then you know they're they're out there doing what they can to show that they were that they are there, and good luck. I hope they are, but at this point I don't see the evidence, so I'm thinking probably not. I don't want to upset any of our UK listeners, but that's just how I feel about it, and you know me, I'm always going to tell you the truth, even if you don't
want to hear it. But the fact that this hominin was there, well, that should that should be of some interest, I think to our UK listeners. If if they're absolutely a flesh and blood creature, there's no way they have them there still. But if they are, you know, some kind of paranormal nsity, like there's some you know, the Wu's strong with them, and maybe there is some sightings there, but I certainly don't think there's any chance of a hidden breeding population. Now it'd be pretty tough,
pretty tough. Yeah. Now, when we were sent there for finding big Foot Bobo, what were your initial thoughts there? Well, I was excited because we heard that remember that Adam Davies, who we really respected, you know, good buddy, We heard that he had encountered that he thought that they were there, So like we were all psyched, and then we get over there and we find out that wasn't exactly what was what happened, so that it seemed, especially in England, it was like they took us to
the biggest forest in England. It was what was it three miles by four miles or something like that. Yeah, it wasn't real big, you know, but yeah, it wasn't real big at all. And you know, I know, I think was Matt and Renee. I don't think you were there, and correct me if I'm wrong, of course, but I think Matt and Renee did something in like Sherwood Forest. Yeah, those guys that I didn't. Yeah, and apparently that's ridiculously small, like just a few
acres or something. I don't know. I wasn't there. I don't remember, unfortunately, but I was just excited because the robin Hood thing. Of course. Yeah. But when I when I I don't know if you were with me or not, I forget. But the forest that I went to was basically a tree form. You know, everything was planted in rows pretty uniformly, not a lot of sign of anything, and you know, it's,
you know, but such a location. Thinking, you know, I assume that there are not sasquatches there such a location would be an interesting control group, you know, for a long duration recorder. I think to go out there and say, count the number of strange vocalizations and possible tree knocks and all these sort of things as a control group for a forest that does have sasquatches in it, I think that would be interesting, kind of the
calibrate perhaps, you know, But I digress, But I digress. But anyway, Homo aneccessor in the UK, that's kind of cool, especially if you know, what, if any of these sightings are actually real, maybe there's another way to explain them, because you know, we don't really know if Neanderthals were covered in hair or not. We just really don't know that. And Homo aneccessor, you know, why wouldn't they be covered in hair? They might be covered in hair as well. It makes some sense,
I think. I mean, we're not we're covered in hair. We just kind of lost most of the fur coating, but we have all those hair follicles. So who's to say. Maybe may again, I'm just being generous here, but maybe some of these sightings, if they are real, are of one of these things, you know, some relic species of this. I mean, I don't necessarily think that's the case. I just but who knows, who knows? I didn't see these things possibilities there, I guess
so. But again, maybe I'm being too generous. Maybe I'm not. I don't know. I know, I certainly know some people are adamant that sasquatches are in the UK. And you know, I'm happy to be wrong in such a case. You know me, I'm pretty happy to I'm generally okay with being wrong anyway. You're gonna be happy as hell, Cliff, when they finally show you three deer's that they do break trees, and they do leave higher like glypts behind sticks and structures and that sort of stuff.
Oh golly, I certainly think they break trees, Bobo. I just don't think that they make glyphs and they make little structures and stuff like that, and to show you things. Maybe they do. I don't know, but I'm completely confident they break trees. They've been seen doing it. That's the whole thing. That's the thing that stops me with the stick structure stuff,
with the prevalence of six structures in like the Bigfoot mindset. Why is it that I you know, you just don't get siding reports of them making these things. But do they break trees. Absolutely, They've been seen doing it. Absolutely do. It's a known eight behavior and they've actually been reportedly been seen doing it. I'm completely on board of that. And in fact, Matt God we found a Dave here at the museum actually found a really weird
thing out in the woods that's very eye opening for me. It's not a structure or anything. I'm not gonna call it that, but man, it is a there was and this is a location where footprint casts have been taken before, by the way, within twenty thirty yards of the spot. It's on this this little out of the way seep coming down a hill going feet
into a larger river. One of the three or for research areas that we've been working like lately, and we kind of dispersing ourselves and trying to get into other areas we haven't been leately, and this is one of those. He found this tree that was about two inches in diameter, broken six feet eight inches off the ground and and like these other branches were like twisted and kind of interwoven into itself. I've seen a couple very weird things come out
of this location before. I've never with my own eyes, I've never found anything. So day finding this independence of everybody else in one of our areas was very interesting to me. Some of the other people who work this area that we shared data with, they've showed me some weird things out of this area too, that kind of go along with this pretty well, I think. But yeah, very weird. I'll text it to you right now and you can check it out. So oh cool, Yeah, you can check
it out. It's actually going to be featured in the next uh in the next North American Bigfoot Center video, because you know, we put out two videos of our own field research every single month for museum members. This will be featured in the next one, so our museum members and there's a lot of overlap between our museum members and our listenership here, so all you NABC members will be able to see this very very soon. So we did a whole video on it. It's so interesting. I see, well, it's
out in cyberspace coming to you right now. Let's see. Okay, I got something just came in from cliff Oh wow, yeah, wild right, that's without a data squatch or it's I don't know. Remember, there's a couple of researchers that work this area, so I have to get in contact with them to find out are you trying to talk to these bigfoot things by doing stuff? You know? I mean there's always that possibility. I don't know, interesting things. So yeah, very peculiar tree thing. I wouldn't
call it a structure. I don't know what to call that. It's more than a tree break, but it certainly it isn't a structure. So I'm
not sure what to do with that one. But I've seen other photographs taken by these researchers in this area where one of the trees has been like pulled down and you know, smaller tree pulled down in one of these you know, these arch things are we talked about, but it's not just an arch that that like clearly happens naturally all the time with wine maples and other plants like that. But the branches were pulled around the trunk of another tree twice
and then tied in a weird sort of crappy knot very weird stuff. Again, I'd like to see these in person and do a close examination of them, but I have never found one myself, and I've so far only seen photographs of these things, and the researchers say that, no, we found prints like right there, like twenty yards away, and this is was like, you know, on this really crappy road that there's no reason for anybody to ever walk on. It's like, oh, well that's of interest.
We'll see. Yeah, So how do you talk to those guys? Are pretty easy for you to find out, right, Oh yeah, yeah, yeah yeah. Once the weather clears up in this this is kind of a higher elevation spot. So once we can get up there, they've they've commented that they're going to take me to see these weird ones that they shown me. And then this spot that Dave has located is under snow now and probably will be for the next few weeks at least, depending on the weather.
But I'll probably get out there in the next you know, two months, once we can. I thought we're gonna be set for the rest of the rest of the winter. In the spring here, it's like cool, the weather's gonna be great. Then all of a sudden, it is, you know, dumped snow. I mean I lived at seven seven or eight hundred feet in elevation and we had two or three inches on the ground yesterday.
Cool. Yeah, well good for I mean good for the water levels, but not good for squatching, all right, folks, So we're gonna wrap that up this episode. We're gonna continue the conversation on Patreon. For our
Patreon subscribers, it's only five dollars a month. So if you'd like to hear more of Cliff and Bob every week nextra episode, sign up and the links down below here in the show notes, I could add one thing there both, so if you like Matt pro, you can go ahead and post that picture of that tree thing on the Patreon as well for our members to check out. So if you maybe that's kind of another added bonus to being a member of Bigfoot and Beyond podcasts here because you get to see pictures of
things that we don't put out to the raid of public. There you go. Yeah, see, so sign up. We appreciate it, all right. So that's it for this week, folks. We'll see you next week, and until then, y'all keep it squatchy. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast.
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