Ep. 242 - Catching Up on New Discoveries!

Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys are fav It's so like, say subscribe and rade it. I'm stuck and me righteous wish today and listening, oh watching them always keep it's watching. And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay. Hey kids, it's Cliff, and you're listening to Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and usually Bobo. But Bobo is not here and it is no fault of his own. Yeah, so he is

not going to be here today. He had a family emergency. He's taking care of things and frankly, there are more important things in this podcast except for you, the listeners. Bobo has something else more important going on, so he's dealing with that at the moment. And this time it's absolutely with my blessing and there's no frustration at all. And I'm pleased to welcome Matt Pruitt as gonna he's going to be our co host here. Hey Matt,

thanks for having me. I'm always here, but thanks for having me officially. Yeah yeah, well, well that they can hear you now instead of you're just lurking in the background like some sort of creep against the back wall. You know, that's how I view you, at least in the podcast here. Yeah. I like to think if they listen really really hard on a quiet day, they can hear my essence. In most episodes, I was listening to a Bigfoot and Beyond. It was almost like I was being

watched. All the hair on the back of my neck went up, and I just thought I was being watched. There was somebody else there. I think it's that Brillet guy. He's kind of weird. Yeah, I'll put in a really low, subtle track of just slow breathing underneath everything. You should probably do that. Actually, don't need to, because we can probably just hear Bobo breathing in the background for most of it, either that or Karita clapping her hands at him to wake him up. Did that make it?

In the last episode, By the way, I did cut it out because I didn't know at the time what was happening. So since we didn't like intuit it, I didn't know that our listeners would. But you know, if you're not a member of Bigfoot and Beyond, we have a Patreon show that's a bonus show for members, and in the last bonus episode. You hear Bobo give two really big, hearty yawns during the conversation, and

then he doesn't speak for about twenty minutes. And Cliff and I were talking and we could hear these sounds in the background and occasionally they'd be this,

and I just thought there was something going on in his house. But then when I went to mix the episode and was listening to the tracks individually, I could tell No, those are definitely hands clapping, And then I realized, like, oh, I think that's Bobo's girlfriend trying to wake him up, because he's sitting in front of his microphone with his headphones on, clearly in the middle of a podcast asleep. I hope that's the case. I

hope that's the case. So if you're not a member of Bigfoot and Beyond, perhaps you want to be so you can listen to the enticing conversations of Bobo when he's asleep. Yeah, it's only happened the one time, but it made for some good content. I think that reminded me of in Kansas. We were filming the Finding Bigfoot show in Kansas and we were talking to the witness I don't remember her name. Unfortunate I'm not good at names.

We're talking to her on her front lawn. Then she found some really interesting snowprints. And I'm not really big on bigfoot in Kansas, but these might have been the real deal. You know, there's just not a lot of habitat in Kansas, and most of this stuff in Kansas comes from the southeast

corner, kind of pushed up against Oklahoma, which makes sense. And that the stuff that is a little bit further away, well they're always down in the river beds and once you get further the further away than that, my belief in it gets a little bit further away too. But anyway, we're talking to her, and that was the day it was cold, and you know how like the cold really messes with your consciousness in a lot of ways,

Like it kind of makes you sleepy. You know. They always say like don't fall asleep if you're like, you know, in danger of dying of hypothermia or whatever. Then all that other stuff, And of course the television show is grueling to say the very least. You know, crazy hours, eighteen hours a day, very often weird sleeping habits, like you might get like six hours this day, then like eight hours the next and four the next and you're always waking up at different times and blah blah blah,

Wow wow wow. Filming a TV shows difficult. But anyway, we're all standing there talking to the witness and I look over and Moneymaker falls asleep on camera, standing up just for a moment, just for a moment or two. But he kind of like kind of catches himself, and I think, oh, poor Matt, because Matt is very prone to fall asleep anyway.

He's one of his superpowers. He can pretty much fall asleep anywhere. I think I was on an expedition with him once years ages years before finding Bigfoot, and you know, he used to do all the BFRO expeditions, so he'd travel around a lot. So I'm sure he wasn't getting a lot of sleep because those things, you know, you're out at night, and you're out all night, and it was cold and so we were, you know, running some of these roads. It was one of the earlier nights.

So we're standing in the vehicles and sort of like calling from these high points and I just need to remember, like he did this epic ohio how and then within twenty seconds, maybe thirty seconds, at the most was snoring, and I'm like, how do you how do you do that? And then immediately fall asleep in and however much time passed, like fifteen minutes no responses. As someone got in the radio, it was like Matt call again and he woke up, howled, and was back asleep within another twenty seconds.

He's a sleeper, man, I've never saw He's so lucky he can fall asleep with that, because you know, even if I'm tired, I'll lay a week in bed for forty five minutes before I go to sleep. Yeah, it's aggravating, but Matt is, he's very blessed. And you know, and again I'm not bagging it on Matt at all. I want to make that very clear. Matt is a good, good friend of mine. I love the man brother from another mother sort of thing road family, and

there's nothing. You know, We're bonded for life and I'm happy to call him a friend. But man, that guy can sleep. It's astonishing. Yeah, he's just harnessing the restorative power of micro naps. I suppose he is. Yeah, but like his micro naps are intense and very macro nappy. Yeah, love me some Matt Moneymaker. Man, love that guy. I don't even know why we're talking about Matt. I kind of forgot why now, but that gets this doesn't matter. But oh yeah, because Bobo

might have fallen the sleeper in the podcast. Oh bobes. But anyway, he's off doing some more important things in podcasting right now. So we're going to tackle this podcast with Matt Prude and I thank you for tuning in everybody. We do appreciate it. And we had something else planned. We're gonna we were gonna do a topical, but that's not gonna shake because Bobo is not here today. He gets a pass today. I just thought it'd be fun to kind of catch up. I mean, honestly, there's so much

stuff going on. I am out in the woods so much, and new things are happening. There's a lot of cool things happening right now. I thought it'd just be a neat opportunity to just kind of shoot the poop basically for a little while and see what's going on. And our listeners, of course, can you're in the room with us, just enjoy what's happening and listen to what I have to share here. Because there's some cool stuff. I can't wait to tell you. I was out in the woods again in

one of my favorite spots, and we got lucky again this time. Dave Dave Ryan, who's one of the employees at the shop, and also he has a YouTube page. I'm gonna plug his page right now, although he told me he hasn't updated it in a couple of years. It's called Clackamas Sasquatch. His name's Dave Ryan, a super good guy, a great employee, good bigfooter. And we went out on Monday. He's a family man.

He's got a wife and kids and stuff like that, so he gets out as much as he can, so if I can go with him, I certainly do. Then a Monday, we had the opportunity to go out to Mountain Hood National Forest in a location that we've been kind of eye in for a little while. We found some stuff there a couple other times before, so we met out at there. We met out at the spot at

maybe ten o'clock in the morning. He drove in one way, I drove in the other, and he basically when I met him, he said, hey, well let's go walk this road here and see if anything's going on. And he goes, okay, but after that, I may have found something. A couple of roads over a couple of drainages over here, I said, okay, well cool, let's take care of this first. We walked that road. We found a maybe footprint, which is cool, but

had nothing to write home about. Not quite sure what it was. Because I'll say it again, reading all these John Green books and doctor Krantz books and all that sort of stuff that I'm sure most of our readers have read, it really skews ones per sep and expectation of what sasquatch footprints look like

in the wild. Okay, Now, there are very relatively few sasquatch footprint casts out there, and I can see why is because most people don't put plaster in things unless it's pretty good and crisp and clear, and frankly, most people aren't prepared to pour plaster in anything because they're away from their car and they didn't bring plaster, and there's hiking and all that sort of stuff.

But the vast majority of sasquatch footprints or any sort of print in the ground is kind of a messy, vague ordeal, to say the least. Most of the time I see the toes in real life, and they just don't show up in the cast like that sort of stuff, or certainly they don't show up as well in the cast. You can see them in the cast, but they don't show up as well. So this particular maybe footprint, well it's a maybe footprint, you know, but it's in the right

zone, it's the right size, and maybe it was one. I don't know. I'll put that out hopefully in a couple of days from my museum members, so you can always be a member of there too if you chee. But so then we went over to the spot where Dave had found an impression and we took a look at it, and you know, it might have been one, but it had nothing to really hang my hat on, you know, there were no toes that if there was a heel, it was kind of squared off. I suspect that it was a little if it

was a print, and I'm saying it was, I don't know. If it was a print. It seemed to be a little bit older, and probably it had some weather erosion going on with it, and probably a slip of some sort on top of it. Maybe a slip because this was on the side of a mud puddle, but I was looking at it. He goes, it's right here, and he's like pointing straight down that I'm on the other side of the mud puddle in this road. I go, well, I mean maybe, I mean, I can see what you're talking about,

but what about that? And I point like eight feet away from where he's looking, and right there in the mud there is a pretty good looking footprint, like right in the middle of the mud, beautiful like nice rounded heel three maybe four toes are showing with a really big display and twelve inches long. Now that's human size, but not a human print because the tosplay

was so wide. And also we've been tracking a twelve inch foot in that area since at least last February. So it's very very encouraging, and so, oh my god, this is great. So we go back to the car, you know, it's like maybe a quarter and a half mile away or something. Go back to the car and get the plaster, and then we walk back to the mud puddle. So it's a period of time later.

Now we mix up everything. I poured the pasture in there and say, okay, well we got forty five minutes, what do you want to do. So this particular mud puddle is formed by a spring on the side of the hill and it flows down and crosses the road and goes down again and flows into a small creek nearby, and that's what makes the mud there. So we kind of look around in the spring a little bit and we walk further up in the road. It dead ends probably another quarter mile up

the road or something like that. And then what we did is from there we went downhill to the creek, and we're gonna circle back around with the thought of, okay, when we find the seap. When we find the seap going into the creek, that's where we'll follow it up. We'll check out all the muddy areas and then we can pull the cast and then get out of here. Because I had to get home that day. Tom Powell

was coming over the house for dinner that night. I hadn't seen Tom in six months or something like that, and he's a really good friend of my wife's and mine, so he had to be I had to be home by four basically, So we go down to the river and we're looking through all the sandy areas and all that stuff along the creek bed. Were going downstream, you know, kind of doing the plan, and I don't know, fifty yards or so down from where we drop down to the creek, I

find another footprint and find another twelve inch footprint. This one has pretty decent toes on it. I go, well, look at this, and Dave's going, could that be erosion? And I'm thinking, yeah, yes, it could be erosion, But why does it have a rounded heel right here? And we're kind of going back and forth and that sort of thing.

And then about twelve feet away from that one, I find five holes in the ground that are basely what I interpret at the time as tow impressions, and there's a there's a scraped off area where it looks like maybe a foot had slid, and it's like, can holy grab here look at this, And it seems I think it's the bigger one because we've been tracking a larger sasquatch in the area as well. We've been getting twelve inch footprints as well

as fourteen inch footprints. At thirteen or fourteen inch footprints, but this one looked pretty big. But I was saying that maybe that's the big one. That's cool, and then I'm looking at it close and Dave is going, could that be erosion? I go, well, I don't think so, because it's at the top of this little mound here. Most erosion would happen at the side are down below. And we're kind of going back and forth, and I said, well, man, it'd be irresponsible of me to

not put plaster in this and take a look at it. So it's okay, let's do it. But I'm thinking it's a print. I'm thinking it's a footprint at the time, and Dave's I think he's I think he's on the fence about it, honestly. So okay, well let's continue going because now we got to go and we didn't have anywhere plaster by the way, so I had to go back to the car and come back to get those.

So from that point we continued further down the creek. I found another twelve inch print, but this one wasn't hadn't have any depth in it. It was just a mark on the banks. I interpreted as an area where the foot went into the sub straight to some depth and then the river level rose and then filled it in. But there was still discoloration of the same size and shape as a foot, including toes. By the way, on

this one, I have photographs of it. And then a little bit further from that one, I found another slight impression with big white tost blaze again a twelve inch foot. Now, mind you, on the road, and by the way, the road is burned off, it's overgrown. There's no traffic on this road. Okay, there's no bikes on this road. There's nowhere to go on this road. It dead ends right, there's no cars

on this road. There's no motorcycles on this road. I suppose it's possible people are walking it, after all, we were walking it, but it doesn't go anywhere, you know, So I will concede that. Okay, maybe that one up up on the road could have been a human because it's a human size and stuff, even though the toastplay idem to be too wide. But down here in the bottom of the creek, I don't know, man, I just don't buy it. I don't see a person walking around

down there. And I found three of the twelve inch ones and this big massive one that with the holes and stuff. So I think I'm pretty excited at this point. I'm pretty confident we have the little guy and the big one. At this point that we've been tracking since at least last February, I think I have like six footprints from these two individuals, or more. Actually I have to guess on that one, maybe six eight footprints from these

guys, because I always cast multiple prints whenever I can. So anyway, we finally locate the spring, I go up to the road. By that time, you know, it's like an hour later or more so that the cast is good enough to pull. So I pull the first cast out of the mud buddle, go back to the car and get drop off that cast, get like four or five more bags of plaster, you know, I

keep him in a gallon freezer bags. That's how I you know, divvy out the plaster to a more or less rite amount and stuff for casting. And then I bring those things back all the way up you know, like half mile three quarters of a mile up the up that road until it ends, and I drop down into the creek and then I backtrack and then I go and I'm tiking off trail. Dave's somewhere else now, so I'm out there and I start making these prints, and long story, and already long

story, trying to make that shorter. I pour these things, I get them out, and actually I broke two of them trying to get them out, because again I was under a time crunch because I Tom Powell's come into the house at four o'clock and it was already like two or two thirty. And yeah, so it's a long drive out there. But anyway, I pull these things, I get them out, clean them out, and when I get home, I hose them down. I don't brush them off because

they're still you know, green, so to speak. At that point, I give him a good hose down and bring them into the shop the next day because I had to work on Tuesday, and Dave and I are looking at what we had done, and so, yeah, we can see the toes here, and I still need to clean them off more thoroughly. You know, they're not done yet by any means, but the first initial hose down was done. So we're looking at holy you can see this is a toe and this is the heel. This is pretty obvious. This is cool.

And then we look at that big one, the real big one, right, and I go, yeah, I guess that's a foot. It looks pretty funky. I mean, you can see these these things that I'm assuming are toes up there, but what is this big cleft in the middle of the planter's surface on the bottom of the foot That doesn't make sense. R Like these two lobes on either side, and there's like a cleft in the middle of it. And I'm thinking, what in the world is that? And Dave looks at it and he goes, could that be a hand?

And I went, holy crap. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after these messages. If you look at your own hand, like, look at your right palm right now wherever you are driving, well, you should probably watch the road, don't listen to me for driving, But if you're not driving, look at or

flying a plane or a helicopter. Look at your right hand right now, and then kind of bring your bring your thumb across and you see the big like chicken meat thing that the drumstick deal at the base of your thumb. That's called the theener eminence. Okay, But and if you bring your thumb over a little bit, it's gonna like clench and kind of ball up a little bit. And you're gonna see it through the middle of your palm.

There's like a cleft, kind of like of a butt crack in the middle of your palm because the thiner eminence, it'll be on your right hand side. If the thumbs sticking out to the right. There's another sort of pad on the left hand side. It's called the hypo theener eminence, and there's a there's a like a butt crack, a cleft going down the middle of those That is what is present in the cast. That is clear as day.

So I see that in my hand. I look at the cast and I'm going, holy crap, that might be a hand but it's so big. So you know, I'm at the NABC, so I just, you know, skip over and I get the big old nineteen eighty six Freeman hand cast out. It's the cast. That is. It's the largest handprint I've seen. It's very large, and you know, honestly, part of the reason it looks so big is because part of the risk got impressed in it. It's not quite as large as everybody thinks it is, but it is

very, very big, don't get me wrong. But it extends to beyond the butt of the palm, so that's why it appears so large. And I bring that over and I lay down that cast right over the cast that we got on Monday, and I'll be darn, it matches really well. And then what I thought was noise, you know, just like noise of substrate in the cast sticking off to the right. It's exactly where the thumb is on the Freeman hand And then I look at some of it. There's

a lot of it's not a neat print. I'll give Prue a picture of it and you can post it wherever you want to post it for our listeners. There are matt but like, there's a lot of noise and suggestions of fingers and stuff like that. But sure enough, those suggestions and the fingertips and all this other stuff, they line up exactly or exactly enough, not exactly, but exactly enough with the Freeman handprint. Although it's about five or

ten percent smaller than the Freeman one, it's still very very large. It's very impressive. No pun intended, but yeah, So we're pretty excited at this point here at the NABC because we've got a lot of handprints this year. We've been very very blessed with handprints. I mean, really, twenty twenty three was the year the handprint. I think we might have doubled the

handprint data on record just this year alone. But to have such a large handprint in our area and I didn't even recognize it as a handprint at the time, I was just blown away. Man. I just we're just over the moon right now. We're super stoked. So yeah, all those casts from the shop as I speak, downstairs, and so I'm going to take them home tonight and over this Christmas weekend here, I'm going to try to clean them up a little bit. They've been sitting around for a few days

drying out. But yeah, it was a very very eventful Monday for us, and I'm hoping I have tomorrow off. I'm kind of toying with the idea of going out there, but there's I've been neglecting some things at home, so I have to There's some housework I need to take care of, so I might just stay home and do that instead. But there's a lot of talking. I guess it is a podcast. What it's why I'm here?

Does that area stay pretty free of snow? Is it at a good elevation, Like, are you able to go out there a lot through the wintertime or not? It depends on the year. Like last year, the answer was no. Well I take that back. Last year I found prints on in one of the areas, and of course the NABC members know about this in February, so I was out there, but then I think in March at snowed. I think the big snow's kind of came late. I

remember right last year, like at midway through February. But I can get there now. But there's no guarantee, as the thing, because it's pretty much right at where the snow line likes to be a big portion of the year, two or three four months, sometimes more. Can't you can't get in there. It depends on the year. Though this year, I mean, it hasn't snowed it all yet. It hasn't been really cold yet, although this morning was like thirty seven or something, which is pretty cold for

me. But I'm sure our listeners in Minnesota are just scoffing at me. So yeah. So I mean, hopefully when you get out here in January, I can take you up there and show you because you're going to be at squatch Fest. In January, so might as well go to the woods and look around for stuff. Yeah, I'd love to see it. See.

I try to picture it my mind when you describe the landscape and try to figure out, you know, like when you talk about the creek, because it's sort of a drainage with walls or slopes on either side of it, or is it fairly flat in that area? Like it's hard to picture. So I'd love to see it in person to get that context, because it does really sound like you're in an area that constitutes some sort of home range, and especially you know, the presence of a smaller individual accompanied by

a larger individual. You know, Krantz had written about and I cited this specifically in my book because I thought it was such an important observation that in plotting what Krantz had access to at the time, which was just John Green's database, which is I think he was dealing with about sixteen or seventeen hundred reports at that time that he found that sidings of females or juveniles, or female juvenile pairs or what might be consort pairs like male female pairings, tended

to happen in these sort of smaller areas that were he determined to be like safe zones. They were a bit further away from human development, rural agriculture, homes, things of that nature. And so it really seemed like a codex in a way of like, Okay, well, if you were trying to find a sasquatch's core area for a given individual, Females typically have home ranges much smaller than males, and so it'd be a more manageable search area.

You would target sidings of females and juveniles or the track finds of such. And it really seems like that might be what's going on there. Yeah, it seems to be so, because we've been tracking these same individuals for quite some time now. And I don't know for sure, but I think that the stuff we were getting a few years ago might have been the larger of the individuals. Yeah, so I don't know, I don't know. We'll see. And of course there's we've got a couple spots where we've been

getting multiple prints. Two spots in particular, where we've been getting like a fourteen ish inch foot and another foot in one spot, this spot that I was just talking about, it's a twelve inch foot and then in the other spot, it's about a nine inch foot So it seems to me that the females are moving with the I'm guessing that's female, you know. I think it's a fairly safe assumption on my part that it's a female moving with its

young. That seems to be appropriate. And again that that handprint, the the thing that turned out to be a handprint, was like twelve feet away from where the twelve inch print was. But you know, I got a wonder, I really wonder that because that hand is so big. It's just so large, and we have other handprints. We have two other handprints that are associated with feet of about fourteen inches thirteen fourteen inches, and both of

those handprints are about the same size from different individuals. And I know that because one's from Kentucky and one is from Washington or actually, yeah, I know Washington. Technically it's in the Blue Mountains right on the edge there, but it's in Washington, So I know they're different animals, you know, but they're about the same size. So we have the same more or less the same size feet, more or less the same size hands. But when

you look at this other hand man, it's a big one. It's a little bit bigger than the hand from the animal that we nicknamed Goliath out there in Kentucky. But it's also a little bit smaller than the giant handprint from nineteen eighty six that we have the cast of in the museum here. But if you again, I'm assuming the vast majority of our listeners have probably read doctor Grover Krantz's book, and if they have not, you should, I

strongly recommend it. It is a great book. But there's photographs now, actually the photographs also in doctor Meldrum's book, there's a photograph of a really big handprint, and I know in doctor Meldrum's book he does or a sketch of where he is in ferring where the bones are inside the hand. It's

that print, but it is quite large. You can't really tell how large it is obviously from photographs, even though doctor Krantz puts scale items in his pictures, and I think Maldren does too, But I know Krantz photographs him against a one inch grid, which is what I also like to do. But yeah, it is a very large hand. But my assumptions are getting in the way. I assume that the female with thirteen or fourteen inch feet is not going to have hands this size. So it makes me wonder,

do we have another individual? Is this the male? What did he and if so, does the male travel with the juvenile because there's very limited data available, but the only one I can think of is Glenn Thomas thing where the male was on one side, then there's a female in the middle and the juvenile on the other side, and the male was not sharing with the rest of the family, so to speak, and the juveniles seem to be

trying to stay away from the male. So I don't know, I've always kind of theorized or hypothesized, speculated might be a far better word, really, that maybe the females and the juveniles are tighter perhaps than that the males, like the males may not have any bond at all with the juveniles for all. And I don't don't really know, but yeah, I kind of wonder if that hand is from a different individual that I don't have a footprint

from yet. Yeah, but again, I mean, I'm really interested in goring my own sacred ox if you can, if you know what I mean. Like the assumptions, and I think I said this on a podcast maybe a year ago or something. Matt, you listen to our podcast. I never listened. I just blab But maybe I said this is that I'm trying to question my own assumptions quite often and really wonder, like, Okay, are these truths that we all take in the Bigfoot community as being truths?

Are they true at all? I'm finding that a lot of them aren't, or at least there's no reason to think that. It's just that everybody says that, and that's why I think it's true. But I'm starting to wonder. I'm starting to wonder about that. But again, so anyway, back to the handprint thing, I kind of have a there's a lot of doubt in my mind that that handprint is from a female because it is so large. In which case does that suggest something? Does that tell us anything about

their social structure? Again? You know, I think it might, and especially if more examples can be extracted from the woods and shared, if we can get more examples of juveniles in the vicinity of big males. Or maybe it is a female handprint. I don't know, maybe just has big hands. I have no idea. There's so many questions, you know, Oh, certainly. And to your point about sacrificing your own sacred cows, so

to speak, I mean you have to do that. You know, if you can't take the biggest sledgehammer to your work, somebody else will, you know, so you might as well be the starting point and do everything you can do to kick the legs out from under it. And if it seems to hold, then it'll hold for other people too. But you know,

to your point about the things that people hold up is true. I mean, certainly things emerged from reports, databases, you know, Green could see certain patterns emerging and developed sort of models or stories to explain those patterns. You know, you see a pattern, you infer a cause. But even those, you know, the four horsemen so to speak, or as Bobo said so perfectly the other day, it's really more like two horsemen and two

additional guys on ponies. So speaking of the two horsemen in particular, you know, I don't think that they even intended those models to stand as sort of like dogmatic truths. In fact, I was reading Carl Jung's It's what posthumous biography, but it's essentially an autobiography. But there was a great quote in there. I pulled out today because I was like, yes, that's

exactly it. But he had said, you know, essentially, a scientific truth is a hypothesis which might be adequate for the moment, but it's not to be preserved as an article of faith for all time. And I think that's straight to the point. It's like, yeah, these things emerge, and we of course develop models to explain them, and we should take hammers to those models and see where we can find cracks and things of that nature. They should be living models that evolve an update, or die off if

they don't hold up. You know, Yeah, any true scientist is always trying to prove him or herself incorrect, doggedly, always incessantly, And if you cannot prove yourself wrong, well maybe you're right, but you don't stop trying. Certainly, what is the largest track in that given area that you've found? Me personally about fourteen inches, But there's another researcher out there work in that It says he found something that was about twenty inches in length.

Now, I don't think a sasquatch has feet twenty inches. I think that's far too large. So there's very likely a lot of sliding in something of something of that size. But you know, maybe I'm wrong about that. You know, I just don't see asquatch foot being twenty inches long. The largest foot that I think I have seen in a cast is probably about sixteen inches or so. But now having said that, people are saying, oh, but this print here is eighteen inches and this oneever or would you know

that's all find and good. I didn't say the largest footprint. I said the largest foot, you know, And of course I haven't seen a sasquatch foot. But what I interpret and how I read casts, you know, and I'm wrong a lot, but I'm very good at it. I mean, I'm not going to I mean all modesty aside. I'm good at footprints, you know, that's kind of my thing, even though I'm wide open to being incorrect, and I make all sorts of errors and mistakes all the

time. I'm not saying I'm infallible. I'm saying that I know I know pretty much how to read a cast pretty well. I'm better than the average person. You know. I'm not saying I'm great, but I'm better than the average person. I think that's fair to say. With my experience I can see tracks and see the slippage and the movement and a lot of times the interactction with the ground that the foot did, you know, because a footprint out, you know, footprint is not the shape of the foot.

It's a shape of the damage under ground by the foot as a thing walks by. I say it all the time, and I over the years, many many many years, I've learned how to read casts a little bit. And you can see how the foot interacts with the ground if you look closely, and you have a lot of experience at it. So when I say that the biggest foot that I've seen, I can see the damage of the

foot. It's probably about sixteen inches. But I have an example and I talk about it all the time in the museum here where a fourteen inch foot left an eighteen and a half inch foot print, you know, because of slippage and sliding and toe spread and and you know all that kind of stuff, and you can see it in the cast, and you can see the

reason for it in the cast as well. It's stepped on a big rock and then a slid forward deeply impressing into the ground, and the toes spread open like it was some sort of break or braking system on the foot. You know, it was a very very interesting cast. So yeah, to answer your question, in this area, the biggest print, the biggest foot I think is around thirteen or fourteen inches. But again, my friend pulled a cast out of the area that he said the cast is about twenty inches

long. Now I have not seen the cast, so I'd like to take a good hard look at that cast and see if I can read it, you know, if I can read what happened to that foot as it interacted with the ground. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bogo will be right back after these messages. Was it still the case that the

Elkins Creek cast? I know, for at least a while it was considered like a representative of the largest foot in the sort of collection let's say that included you know, Krantz and Meldrum for a while, and maybe something larger has come along, but I know for a long time that was referenced as being the largest on record in cast form. Well, it's big, it's certainly big. I mean, what is it's like eighteen inches or something.

You know, I'm plugging in my hard drive so I can take a picture of it or take a look at the picture of the cast just you know.

Yeah, it seems like it's a bit larger, just slightly than let's say, like the Grace Harbor foot Oh yeah, well, the greats Harbor print is fifteen inches, you know, the Hereford cast, you know, and most and I believe, I believe all of the footprint casts are of that same individual from the nineteen eighty two Grays Harbor events, the April and May stuff that Hereford was involved in, and all sorts of researchers were down the kranz So's Eric Cliff Crook was there, All sorts of people were down

there doing stuff. I believe that all of those footprints came from one individual sasquatch, even though everybody says there we're two, there two distinct prints, and I think I believe. I think I asked Dennis Hereford that when I sat him down for an interview last year. I think he heard also that there were two individuals but only saw one print or no, no, there had to be two. There had to be two. Yeah. I just

always thought it was interesting that that Elkins Creek cast was so large. You know, one of the of sasquatchry has always been that, oh, they're smaller in the south, and you could say, well, it's interesting that one of the largest tracks on record is from essentially central Georgia. It's pretty

far south, you know. Or the other myth, oh they're more aggressive in the south, where the majority of aggressive reports come from the extreme northwest, like you know, British Columbia on up north, not the southeast US. And so always found those two be sort of interesting observations in the light of the myths associated with sasquatch. Yeah. Yeah, And you know, I'm looking at a photograph of the Elkins Creek cast right now. It is

obviously a slide in obviously because the heel. And I should have known this because it's hanging up in the museum and I see it every single day. It's in the gift shop. Gift shop in the museum, you have to go in the back. It come by a shirt and it's right there.

There's a couple of things going on with the Elkins Creet cast, and one of the most obvious things is at the heel the kind of slopes inwards, you know, like the very very back part of the heel starts at the ground level and then slowly gets deeper, which is one of the indications of some sort of sliding going on. The toes are a little bit splayed, not super splayed, but they are pretty far apart, and they're also kind of deep. So yeah, it actually slid into this print. So we

don't know how long the foot is. It's a big one, don't get me wrong. It's probably a big mail or something if I had to guess. But yeah, we don't know how long the actual print is. But I think the cast itself is about eighteen inches I think if I remember right. I don't know. It seems to me that this is a slide. And you know, another thing about the Elkins Creek cast, of course, is that it's widely known to be the one with dramatic lipics and whatnot.

But the impression was touched before it was cast, because you can not only see finger impressions in the cast itself, you can also see a big palm, a human palm, in the middle of the cast, about halfway down, with the fingers facing back towards the heel. So even if there are dramaticallyphics in this particular cast, we have to throw them out. If those are sasquatch dramatic elyphics, it's a wasted opportunity because there are human finger marks

in the in hand marks in the cast itself. We know a human touch this the impression before it was cast, and therefore it's polluted. You know, there's there's a turd in the jacuzzie. You know the water is still warm, but you don't want to go in there. Yeah anyway, yeah, yeah, so it's a big old print, but there's there is some sliding going on for sure. Well, it is remark about what you guys

are doing over there, and especially for people to hear that. You know, it's not just a the museum is not just a storehouse of artifacts,

so to speak. It's also sort of like a living field research project, an ongoing field research project, and so those things get updated annually as fines come in, and it's really remarkable no one else is doing anything like that, let alone the time and the dedication, because you have this signal coming in because there's so many people coming into report sidings or track fines or things

of that nature. And then not only you know, you have yourself, but obviously a support of staff who can go out in the field, competent field researchers to look at and help you document these things. And it's it's remarkable. No one, no one's doing that. So kudos to you and to Nico and to Dave and to Keith and everyone there. Yeah, and and of course Tyler as well. Yeah, we all we all have our

roles, you know. I guess I'm just the nerd or whatever, the head nerd here, but uh, we all love going to the field. I mean, I bet you dollar. Tyler's probably out right now doing something and he's fairly new to the game. He kind of he was he was really drumming everywhere. He's a really good drummer, and he was playing music everywhere. Then he saw a sasquatch out of Mountain National Forest and he'd like quit all his bands. And now he's been out in the woods like three

or four days a week. He's pretty obsessive when it comes to things like that. And Nico of course is well trained. He's you know, he's going going to school form paleontology. He's a kind of a bone expert train tracker day has you know, been out there forever. He had some experiences in the woods and he went like what and you know, he made a YouTube channel and he's he's gung ho and super stoked on learning things and always wants to go. We've got in of course. Keith, he's our contractor.

I met him through our mutual friend Will Robinson. Keats basically built the museum, like he built the infant, the bones on the museum and I hung the meat on it, you know, because all the content is from me, but content and artifacts and whatnot. But he basically built the structures and whatever for me to hang things on. And yeah, he didn't think twice about Bigfoot until he started working for us, and now he can't get

enough of it. He's out there, you know, doing the film recreations, you know, at the Walla Walla site with us a couple of weeks ago. He's out in the field with us whenever you can get Yeah, he just loves it. Very very lucky to have the team we have here,

the location. You know, when you mentioned something about like I forget how you put it, but basically we're a big antenna at this point getting Biger all the time, but a big antenna where people are hearing about it, and they say, oh, I bet they would like to know about this, or oh hey, oh you found a footprint, tell them about it, or there was a sighting or you know, that's how we got

the Walla Walla footage. Is that somebody said she posted on the Walla Walla board on the Facebook board, and someone said, oh, you should tell Cliff Berrickman about this, and she did. You know, so it's kind of nice to have such a neat line of incoming information. But speaking of that, just today, just today in the shop, a family was in here from I forget Centralia or something up that direction. Anyway, they went through the museum and I said, hey, did you see anything cool back

there? They go, oh, hey, you're Cliff, and I go, yeah, I am, and well, I said, well depends who's looking. But it turns out they were cool. So I said, yeah, I'm Cliff, and they said I want to show you something. We got a cast in the car. And went like, oh fantastic. And you know that sort of thing happens every couple of weeks where it's like, hey, we've got this in the car. We'd love to show you.

You know, he usually doesn't show turned out to be too much, too exciting, but every once in a while it does, and today was kind of neat. He went out to the car and he brought in this cast and he put it on the table and I immediately recognized it. It wasn't

a new cast. I was kind of hoping it would be, but I immediately recognized as a Ray Wallace hoax, which you know when you know, I'm not a big fan of hoaxes, but I am a big fan of Bigfoot history, and Ray Wallace hoaxes are part of the history, whether we like it or not. And I said, Oh, where did you get this? He goes, oh, well, I think his dad or somebody worked at a fiberglass plant when he was a kid. In about nineteen eighty three, he was at his dad's work and they somebody brought in a semi

translucent resin cast of a bigfoot. It was that one and his friend borrowed it and made a mold and made a duplicate. So this is actually a duplicate of a Ray Wallace hoax. And I goes, oh, that's a Ray And I started telling about the history of Ray Wallace and his position in the history, you know, like he owned the he owned the log building or the road building crew ineteen fifty eight, and then he sub contracted the

job the Jerry Crew, who got the footprints of the Sasquatch. You know, from I understand, Ray Wallace wasn't even the state at the time, so he could didn't plant those, But he actually was the recipient of the government contract to build the first road in the Bluff Creek, and he subcontracted

that out to Jerry Crew. So Jerry It's often written that Jerry Crew worked for Ray Wallace, and I guess that's technically true, but Ray Wallace wasn't there, he wasn't on site, and Jerry Crew wasn't working for Ray taking directions from him at the time. That's not the way it happened. He subcontracted the entire job to Jerry CRU's road building operation, and that's how that

happened. But I kind of explained all that, and I went over and I pulled off doctor Meldrum's book from the shelf and I said, well, look at this, and I flipped it open and I said, there's your cast, and there's a picture of the same cast in doctor Meldrum's book, and he goes, oh my god. He immediately recognized there it is, you know, and we didn't leave the cast with us, which is fine.

You know, I'm looking for actually a real Ray Wallace original. I'd love to have one of those, so if anybody knows where I can find one, let me know. But inside that resin mold or the resin cast that I mentioned, the translucent resin cast, was a like a brochure shaped piece of paper with information about Bigfoot in this weird, you know, nineteen seventies typewriter script, and it was, you know stuff, you know, it's just like Bigfoot is a blah blah blah and possible relative of Homo sapiens

and all this kind of antiquated sort of stuff. And he said that the piece of paper was inside the res the translucent resin cast that this was made off of, and then someone of his friends remade it, like, you know, somehow scanned it, and he gave us a bunch of copies of that, which I thought was kind of neat. So just today somebody brought in a copy of a piece of history. And you know, history is part of what the NBC is all about honestly, So it was really really

neat to kind of see that come in the door. I took some pictures of it, and I will be posting that in the next couple of days for our museum members. Yeah, probably not something that we necessarily need to post for a Bigfoot and beyond and those people care, but you know, for the museum members, they'll be seeing that soon. So it's kind of neat. Oh, that's very cool for history like that to come in. Yeah. Things just walk in the door all the time, you know.

Yeah. I I remember a couple of years ago somebody walked in the door and they're looking around and says, you don't have anything about my family here? Who who are you? He goes, Oh, my name is Neil Beck. And I went like, holy crap, Fred, how are you related to Fred? He goes, oh, that he's my great great uncle or something like that he said, and I just went like no, yeah,

And then I still I still talk to Neil. With all this Ape Canyon stuff that's happening right now, there's I don't think it's out yet, so I'm not going to talk about but kol Ape Canyon stuff is on the horizon, So I've been I've been calling Neil and talking to him lately and stuff. So you just never know who's going to come in the door. You just never know. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after these messages. Yeah, you just never

know who's going to be here. It's a really fun place to work. Oh, I can't wait to see it. You know. I visited you in I guess it was September or October of twenty nineteen, and at that point the gift shop was open, but the museum portion wasn't completed or open to the public yet. So I can't wait to see what it looks like now. I'm really excited about it. Yeah, it kind of sucked then, but it's great now. It's not even great now. It's pretty good

now. I'm a pretty harsh critic on myself. It's pretty good now. But knowing what we have in you know, what's coming up in the next couple of months, and the stuff that you know, I've already paid for that we haven't received, and there's some really really cool things coming. Man. I cannot I am just tickled. I'm tickled pink about this coming summer, because you know, we make all of our money in the summer, because we're kind of a tourism industry at the end of the day, and

so during the fall and winter we improve things. Like I don't know if you've been hearing Matt or our audience for that matter, but there's been banging in the background, like bam in the background. That's because literally right now as I speak, Keith is downstairs, and you know, Dave was here

for a while. Dave and Keith were taking everything off one of the walls and we're repainting one of the walls downstairs and putting up shelving where we can display some really cool items that we've been getting in lately, not for a museum displays, but for like, you know, merchandise displays. There are certain things that we keep behind the shelves that people can't put their hands on because because they're too expensive. We just got, like, we have a

thermal imaging camera in the shop that's going to go back in there. We have we just got a bunch of autographed John Green stuff in that I put out for some museum members. I always sell the cool stuff to the museum members first. There's usually nothing left after they get they get a hold of it. But yeah, that kind of thing is going to go behind the counter on these shelves and stuff. And yeah, so we're improving things all

the time. It's it's it's a lot of fun, you know. It's it's like this really cool living art project that I get to work on every day. I show up to work and you know, I cataloged some footprint casts, I added another cast to the inventory. I did some proof reading in the back. Like every day is Bigfoot Creativity Day for Cliff. It's a lot of fun to work here. Oh that's hot. I really can't wait to see it. Like I said, I'll be out there in January,

so super excited about it. Maybe we should plug the squatch Fest. I actually just got an email from the organizer today, so it's fresh on my mind. So I'm really looking forward to to getting out there. And I know you've done that event several times and always spoke really highly of it. Oh, it's one of my favorites. Yeah, it's a great event. I'd love the fact that it's local, you know, and it's but it's not just that it's local that that makes me tickled about squatch Fest every

year. And it's not just the speakers either, and they tend to get really good speakers, but you know, everybody hangs out and it's just a good time. Like for example, like you know, so you and you're going to be staying at the house for a couple of days before squatch Fest. We're gonna hang out. We're gonna go to the woods and go to the museum and do all that sort of stuff. Yesterday I got call Michael Freeman needs a place to stay, So Mike's gonna be stay at the house

too. So Michael will be at the house and the doctor melderm may or may not be out. I haven't spoken to him lately, so yeah, and it's just gonna be a great time. It's a lot of fun. Yeah. It looks like it's Friday, January twenty sixth and Saturday January twenty seven so a two day event there. And I know they've got a lot of vendors signed up. And I just can't wait to see you and see doctor Meldrim again. And you know, I've lived in the Northwest for almost

three years. I've got a lot of friends that are to come out, so it'll be really cool, really cool trip to catch up with squatching buddies and some normies, some non squatching buddies who are going to come out. I actually have a friend from Atlanta who now lives in Kelso, and I kind of forgot that he was living out there, and then he messaged me a picture of the flyer and he was like, dude, you're coming to

town. I'm going to the event. So very exciting. A lot of people show up, Like three or four thousand people go through the doors in those two days. Yeah, it's a really neat event. And you know, obviously it's it's good for the museum because you know, everything I sell at my table goes to the museum or whatever. I enjoy speaking to the local home crowd. I really enjoy that a lot. Actually, still I think I'm going to be doing a brand new presentation too. I'm still kind

of formulating it. I mentioned recently I want it to be about hand prints, but I think I may have to expand that a little bit. In fact, I mentioned earlier I've been kicking around this idea twenty twenty three year.

The handprints it might be something along those lines, because that'll let me have a chance to not only speak about hand prints and what they mean to us the researchers, and what we can learn about the animals by studying them, but it also kind of highlights some of the stuff that we're doing at the NABC, you know, because I do kind of like touting our efforts at the museum to other people, to kind of say, hey, this

is just like an hour south of you. You guys are hunters, you're out in the woods, you know, Like tell me what's going on. Let me know what's going on here. I'm local. This seems like an appropriate time or place we can give a plug to our friends over there, small town monsters. I guess Eli, who was a recent guest on the on the podcast here, Eli recently did a I guess a visit or an expedition or something with the Olympic Project folks, and I guess a couple of

days ago David was telling me about it. I really haven't had a chance to look at it yet. And you know, I don't generally watch Bigfoot TV stuff anyway, but I do like the small town Monsters guys and gals. But they did something recently on just the Nest site. Have you seen this thing yet? You know, I know it's an episodic series, and I watched the first episode and it was excellent. So I haven't seen the newest one yet, but I did see the first one, and you know,

I can't say enough nice things about Eli. He's a great filmmaker. He's got a good eye for that stuff. He's a great student of the Sasquatch subject. And so I'm definitely gonna watch the whole series. Yeah, Dave was saying that, I guess it's gonna be a two parter of this one, and the first one is mostly about the nets in general, and and I guess at the end of this one they they just start talking about

the second Nest site. And you know, I was pretty heavily involved in this, at least the second one at the very beginning, and the first one as well, So I'm kind of anxious to see that. I think that'd be kind of neat. So that's a new thing that's out there that I think that people probably should go watch, you know, especially if you have more questions about the nest site. And I kind of I didn't have time, because I pulled it open right before I was supposed to come upstairs

and do the podcast here. But I did have time to kind of scrub through it, you know, like like kind of fast forward through it. It seems like you get a lot of good information straight from Derek and Shane and to Odd and all those folks, you know, Chris, everybody who's

still working out there in the webs in the nest site. Dave gave me the low down that they start touching on the vocalization study they've been doing out there, which is probably second to none because they have these long term recorders out there, and I will say they're doing a far better job than we are here at the museum doing that kind of thing. Our focus is really not on the vocalizations, but we do have a couple of long term recorders

out there. But they are doing an excellent, excellent job cataloging the soundsifying the sounds and put them all in the spreadsheets and trying to squeeze information out of that stuff. I guess they're starting to touch on that because I know what's happening behind the scenes, Like you know, I've seen the data. You know, Chris has been at the shop with the footprints of the cast, and like I've seen the data and I know the story, I don't

know the documentary. You know. That's maybe that's part of the reason I don't watch a lot of big Foot TVs because I know what's already going and I already know what's going on behind the scenes, you know. But I guess Dave was talking about that to me, so I guess some of that might be in the documentary. But really the joy of it, I think for people who have never been to the nest site, and most people never will, of course, but the people who are interested in the nest site,

you get to see them. You really get to see a lot of video of the nests themselves, and particularly that second nests seite, because I find myself describing that second nest site quite often because in the museum not all. I mean, they do have a I did catch that the guys Shane and Derek and those folks were making a net, and of course they did that a number of years ago and then presented the nest at the squatch Fest

event that we were just talking about. So they brought their their their nest in and they basically made a nest as an experiment to figure out like, okay, what is what does it take to make one of these things? And they learned a lot from doing it. That nest replica, by the way, is in the NABC. It is here on site, on display all the time, and with three full information panels about the nest site, well the nests in general. We have a brand new one that's up maybe

about two months old at the most. About the second nest site discovered one ridge over from the original nests, and in that see the first the first nest displays like okay that this happened. There's pictures of the rocks that were banging together and all that jazz. The second nest site display is a little bit more. It's information like, hey, they discovered another one. Here's

the circumstances of what what they just when they discovered it. Here is a container full of nesting material from the nest site itself, including and here's a hair that we found in the nesting material. And also here is a footprint cast from one of the fourteen inch footprints that we found and cast at the

site and underneath the material themselves. So that was kind of neat and then finally the third panel there by, the nest is not about the nests, but about the pioneering work of Lori Joe Hamilton, a good good friend of mine, unsung hero and bigfoot. She deserves to be my top bill basically

on a big foot billboard. There. She has been doing excellent quiet work out there with her dog Marley, walking around and casting footprints since twenty fourteen or fifteen, unbeknownst to her, within five miles of the nest site, north, south, east and west of the nest site area and showing the same individuals that seem to be pressed at the nest site, like literally very

likely the same bigfoots who made the nest. And of course Laurie didn't know anything about the Olympic project, and the Olympic Project ever heard of Lori. I've introduced them, you know. Now they all know each other and communicating stuff. But so she has her own big display panel with a bunch of her casts as well. Yeah, so it's neat to see the nest site documentary kind of make the light of day and for people who are interested in what the nests are, what they could mean, how they were made,

the context of the find and the ongoing saga. Well, check out the new documentary whatever it's called on small Town Monster stuff. I'm like the worst guy for plugging things, you know. Check out the new documentary whatever it's called. The link in the show notes. It was really cool that first episode because he also got a lot of video that they had taken over the

years, and so he'd incorporated that. So there's almost like that documentary style where you can see the progression over the years of the field research that members of the Olympic Project are conducting there. And that's really cool that I didn't know that they were getting into some of the audio stuff, because yeah, Chris Spencer spearheads that and is, you know, in my opinion, the

best person doing sort of audio work out there. You know, Chris, you know, I consider a very dear friend, and I could just tell when I met him because as you know, you know, doing this for so long, you travel around the country, you meet a lot of people, and the majority of people that you meet are sort of enthusiasts or proponents or you know, but enthusias would probably be the right word, like people who are fans of the subject who follow it maybe loosely, you know,

maybe they get out once or twice a year or something like that, or they engage in the community side of it. And those people tend to come and go just because you know, interests change and they wane, you know, whether you're following this or any other subject. But there's just always a tinier handful of people that are the lifers, you know what I mean. And so I look back at as long as I've been involved, and some of the same people have been around, you know, you Darryl call your

Mike Mays. You know, I've got a number of these, Derek, etcetera. As one of them. And I was aware of Chris, but once I met him and started talking to him, I was like, oh, he's one of us, for sure. You know, he's a lifer, like one of us kind of thing. So goa goba hey, Yeah. So I think the world of Chris, and he's doing stellar work in that regard. So I'm glad that element of what they're doing is being showcased.

In addition to not just the analysis of these nests and trying to get to the bottom of that particular phenomenon, let's say, but audio work too. Because it's Chris is doing this sort of herculean effort there. Well, all right, Matt, I mean, I mean there's I guess that's a catching up session. I mean, we didn't have Bubble with us. But since you're rarely a voice that is heard on the regular episode, you're always lurking in the shadows, I thought this might be a fun opportunity just to

kind of catch up and talk about various things have been happening. Get your point of view, even though it seems like I was mostly doing the talking in this one. But whatever. You've been a guest on the show a couple of times, but there you go. No, I love hearing the updates. Like I said, kudos to everyone at the NAPC, And what you're doing is awesome and I can't wait to see it in January. I can't believe how lucky I am that I get to do this. I really

really appreciative of this accident that I can call my life. You know, absolutely all right, Well, I guess with that, listen next time if you can, you know, phone the neighbors, wake the kids, tell them to listen to Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. And Matt lurking around here somewhere, and we're going to go record a members episode here next And if you want to be a member of Bigfoot and Beyond, just go to Bigfoot and Beyond podcast dot com and you hit the membership button or Matt

Pru. Of course, we'll put the link in the show notes, and then hopefully next week Bobo will be with us. We expect him to be. Of course, today was kind of an anomaly. He had to cancel the last minute just a couple hours ago, and this case, it is totally acceptable he did so. So anyway, tune in next week. So, Matt Prue, would you like to do your best Bobo imitation and take us out of here? Yep? Sure, all right, folks, make sure to like sei you subscribe, give us a five star rating, and

keep it squatchy. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes, Subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast. You can find us on Twitter at Bigfoot and Beyond. That's an n in the middle and tweet us your thoughts and questions with the hashtag Bigfoot and Beyond.