Big Food and on with Cliff and Bubo. These guys are your favorites, so like to say subscribe and rade.
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Greatest gone yesterday listening watching Limb always keep its watching.
And now you're hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay.
Hey, Cliff, we got a great guest.
Today, Yes we do. This is one we've been looking forward to for a long time.
Yeah.
I don't even want to find out what's going on with you or tell what's going on with me, man, I just want to jump right into this one, so uh exactly. Yeah, why don't we just not waste anybody's time and just bring it in. So our guest today is a legend in bigfooting and I can always call
him the second generation. You know, it's not quite it's not the four Horsemen level, although this gentleman worked with all of the horsemen and many many more, probably of the unsung heroes that don't get the credit they deserve. So he kind of a second generation as far as bigfoot goes. But you know enough of me, man, This is Rick Nole. We have Rick Knowl on the podcast today. Rick, thank you so much for spending some time with Bobo and I today.
Thanks, y Hey, how's it going all right?
Yeah?
You are a man of few words, so we're going to do the best we can to get you talking on this one. I've always I've known you for a long time. I'm not Cassie. I know you very well, but we've certainly crossed paths many times. And you're a man of few words and kind of quiet and in the background. And I do have a great amount of respect for people with your temperament and bigfoot. But you've been bigfooting since the late sixties. Is that accurate?
Yeah, yep. I started off down in Olympia when they were the first time they tried to change the state animal to bigfoot. Dick Grover tried to do that, and he had this old style wooden piano down on capital steps in Olampia and nobody was playing it, but on
top of it where these bigfoot casts. And he would stop senators or whatever they the representatives were, their titles, walking up down the steps to show them the cast and say, we really want to have this animal protected, and the best way to do that is to make it the state for the state animals. That's what got me interested in the beginning.
But did you see this on TV or in person or no?
It was a news article, And so I went down there and then I met up with him. And then the next thing that happened was there was a sighting pretty close to my house. A kid and his girlfriend were driving a truck their parents, his parents' truck, and it had one of those racks and they put ladders
in it stuff. Yeah, And he claimed that they saw a bigfoot across the road and run into a sign and bend it with their hand and the hand was not lifted up or anything that was the height of the of the hand on the end of the arm. Grover came down for that too, and then he introduced me to a project Discovery and then they saying one thing, went to another and got more and more involved.
You're a high school kid, weren't you.
At that time? Yeah? Yeah, I was. I was a boy.
That was just that.
I think that was my last year in high school.
Is that the same That must be the same sign that Mark Marcel is now working hard to recover.
Could be at scratch marks on the back.
Yeah, yeah. And this person lived out and I think in Randall or something. I think Mark finally tracked the person down is living in Randall, but he had a tumultuous life and I think he abandoned the house where the sign was in the front yard as the last we heard so, but Mark has the address and he's wondering, well, maybe somebody still has it.
Who knows they could. But on my investigation of it, the parents loaned them the truck and there was damage under the truck, and the kid was late, and the parents of the girl was upset that they were out so late. I don't know what they were doing, but it wasn't bigfoot hunting at the time until they came home and said it was bigfoot they saw. And I kind of think that maybe they backed into that sign and hit it with a ladder or something from on
top of that that rack, But I don't know. I mean, the scratches were even, they were at an angle, they were curved, but I just don't see fingernails being able to make that, and I don't think bigfoot wears rings.
Interesting, So, now, how did you hear about that sighting?
I believe that was in report in the news.
This is nineteen sixty nine or seventy or something. There was no Internet, there was no collection of reports at that time beyond John Green.
I think someone heard it and they contacted the SEATTLEPI that was the newspaper.
So that you met. When you said Grover came down? Where you talking about Dick Grover or Grover Krantz, Dick Grover, Dick Grober? Okay, and what who is he? I'm not familiar with that name, but it sounds like I've heard it before. I just can't place it.
Well, that was his claim to fame. And so when he ever does anything with Bigfoot, he's looking for things that Bigfoot interacts with other than people. So he was looking for signs where it would run into a sign, it would destroy a fence, it would uh leave handprints, it would destroy the clapboards on a house, you know, stuff like that. And so he likes signs.
I'm one hundred percent sure. Now Grover is the name that Mark Myrcel was telling me about. He is looking for this sign. I'm one hundred percent sure of that.
Now.
Now that's finally coming back to me. That's so interesting, and you know that you might ow I didn't even think about this. Now I've been working really hard lately to track down the address of the house that had the uddy handprint on it in nineteen sixty two. And Fort Bragg. You wouldn't be able to help me with that, would you, Rick Fort Bragg? You know that muddy handprint
that was on the outside. There's a picture of an artist reconstruction of it in John Green's books that the artist rendition of it was done by Chuck Edmonds, the artist teacher, the art teacher from Ashland, Oregon.
That sounds like something that Renee would have. Most of the stuff was surprising. Renee collected a lot of stuff, and John used it in his writings and his books and stuff. John didn't have a lot of physical material. He didn't collect that stuff. He would have it. But if if anybody would collect that, that would be Renee. So probably his his son up in Canada has it.
But how did you meet Renee and those guys?
Ah?
Renee and I get it, man, I can't remember what I had for breakfast yesterday.
Well, I remember all the stories, I just don't remember exactly the first time. Let me see, here's the first time I met John Green.
We're gonna go through all of them. You might just whatever you remember.
Let us know.
Well, I guess the first person I met was actually Peter Burn, so that would be the first person I think. So I was going to college. I had that interest in bigfoot, and I did a paper in anthropology and I saw in the news about Peter Burn having a museum and the Dallas actually it was an information center as really was not a museum, but anyway, I went down there, talked to him, asked him about coming up to talk at the school, and he said, sure, he could do that. He has an actual program that he
can show. So I hooked it all up. Out of them involved.
Which college was it?
That was Green River Community College. So he gave the talk there and that was pretty cool, and we sort of associated ourselves. We had a little club kind of thing in the college and we would go out and look for stuff we got on the TV. We got on a couple of Northwest TV shows about looking in the woods for Bigfoot, and we would take trips down
to see Peter. And I also went with stayed down there with Peter for a little while and when he was still married with d D and we went on a couple of trips, not not a whole bunch, but a couple of trips out in the woods on some called in reports and I drove his vehicle his internationals and what happened was there was a report he wanted me a check on. And at the time I was going, I was in school with David Smith and David Smith I had David and I hooked up way before Peter Burnet.
But David and I were contacted and we went out to North Bend because there was some footprints and there was just a couple and they were in the news and they had showed a guy supposedly finding these tracks. And then the next day there was another newspaper article. So I already knew about this sighting but or not
sighting but footprint fie before Peter called us. And the next day there was a guy that had a broken foot and there was like this weird thing that was attached to the cast underneath his heel sticking out like a heel on a shoe. I guess because he to wear cowboy boots or something. I don't know, maybe he had to have a heel on the cast so he didn't walk with a limp or something. But I don't know how he broke his foot or anything like that, but they had a picture of his cast facing the
camera and him in the background. So the casts looked really huge, his foot looked really huge, and he had three toe sticking out the top. Those weren't cast, and that the footprints in the ground were three toed, they weren't five toed, and they didn't have that little bump in the bottom. But it was kind of sort of similar. I don't know about the size because there was nothing to compare the two. So that was the next day that that picture appeared. I still have the articles, and
so I was planning on going out there. I asked David that he wanted to go, and then we got a call from Peter and he says, you need to go out there and check this out because it's getting a lot of news down here. So Dave and I went out there. We camped, and we ran into Dennis Skates and his buddy Dennis Skates and I forget who the other guy's name used to live in on the
way up to well, it was on highway too. It was in like around concrete or something like that, and they were helping John Greenow to do investigations in Washington State and he Dennis Skates was was a character. But they were trying to cast a track and they destroyed everything they tried to pull it out. They were making fun of us because you know, we said we were with with Peter Burn, and at that time John Green and Peter Burn already hated each other. So I saw
their cast. I said, you know, you got a problem with that. I don't think it's going to pull. And they said, we use city seck or you don't know what you're talking about. We know what we're doing. So we left and we came back later and there was just pieces of the plaster all over the place because it broke when they tried to pull it, and so we just took pictures of it because I didn't have any casting material at the time, so we took pictures
of it. And then we walked around and further up on a dirt road above the river north fork of the Stilly I believe, or not Silly, but whatever that river is named now. But we walked up above there was a road that went up and there was a flat like there used to be a logging show where they put the Wench and stuff up there, and the trucks would get loaded and there was hundreds of tracks up there, Chris grass all over the place. So I took a bunch of pictures of Dave trying to space
himself out on those tracks. Whoever made those tracks, they were pretty long in between. And we came down the road to go back to where we were camped. We had tents and there was Peter and Deedie and another person that worked with Peter, and they all said, well, you know what, we're going to stay here and we're
going to investigate a little bit. So we all camped and we went back up the next day and Peter went out in the woods, went and looked at some of the tracks, and he found mouse that was stepped on, and I got a picture of him pulling up a squashed mouse and from the footprint, and then he said, we were going to go and talk to the actual person that found the tracks, and then we're going to talk to the person that had the cast. So we went to the house where this guy lived in North Bend,
got in there. We were sitting around his wood stove and he's telling a story and everything, and then we heard a knock on the door and walks John Green, and Peter and John just their whole body shook, looking at each other like like you know, a dog in a camp. We're about ready to fight. And so we finished up what we were saying and we got out of there. But John got out of the building and waited. Well, we left and then we went over to the other house.
That's how we met John Green. That was the first time I met John Green.
Did he hold it against you that you were working with Peter at that point or.
As he did? He didn't want to talk to me at all, And later on he didn't want to talk to me at all. And then it was only until I met up with Renee and became friends with him that John started worming up to me.
Were you a fan of John Green? Yeah?
He was. The first books, the first books I read about it was is Big eight and a half eleven by paperbacks, you know, the first the red and the yellow, the yellow one first and the red one on the track of the file of the Sasquatch file.
That must have suck, because I mean, like I can imagine like having one of your heroes come in and also he thinks you're a dick right on the bat, just yeah, yeah.
Yeah, And you know, and Renee never wrote. Renee hadn't written his book yet, and Grover wasn't involved yet. Peter hadn't written a book yet, and I started seeing flaws in the chink of Peter burn at that time. He asked me to go to Little Eagle, South Dakota to look into some bigfoot reports back there. And so I went back there and I met up with a guy that wrote a really nasty book. And I can't remember his name, but I have his book and it's a classic now everybody likes it. And I talked to him.
He says, so you work with Peter, huh. I go, well, sort of. He asked me to do stuff, you know, And I go out and I investigate farm he can't get everywhere. And I got a phone call from Peter later that night saying, you know, Rick, I need to have I'm being heckled by this character Reneede to hind it and I need to do something about it, and blah blah blah blah. And it ended up where he went to use my name to by having me call Renee from Little Eagle saying I'm going to be at
such and such a place. Can you meet me there? And Rene Hardy knew me at all, but he went there, I met Renee. That's that's not when I met him. So I met Renee. I just don't remember when it might have been. I might have met him at Oh I know where I met him. Okay, there was a bus driver and Hope that claimed to have a big foot run across the road in front of him, and all these passengers saw it. Turned out to be a fake. So I was there, Renee was. He had just left
and we went into Harrison afterwards. I met up with Renee. Then I remember, that's when I met him the first time.
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Was that pretty tense, those things, with the the divisions there and the rivalries already? Like, was that was it would it be uncomfortable to those early get togethers.
Yes, it was. It was pretty uncomfortable at UBC conference. That's where I first met Grover Krantz and he came in and he was like, matter of fact, this is the gun I would use, this the bullet I would use. And he turned that place into to kill or not to kill and had nothing to do with what the original story was about that conference, you know. And for the time, I didn't have a lot of money and that was like one hundred and fifty bucks to go that thing. And it was years later that they actually
produced a book about it and published the papers. That's also the where I met Alan Barry and we listened to the first We were the first people to hear in the Bigfoot community, the other than Alan Berry and morehead those tapes and we thought that was interesting. I met Bob Gimmin there, Peter Atheson.
Real Murderers, Rother that's an all star Hall of Fame lineup.
Yeah. I don't think Matt was around at that time.
No, he was too young.
Yeah. Yeah, I don't think anything in Ohio was going on at that time either. The stuff going down in Texas, Canada was they had.
The movie Oh Boggie Creek.
Yeah, I think that came out a year later after Roger Patterson's movie or something.
That was seventy two seventy three in that zone there, Yeah, the legend of Boggie Creek, so that, but you know, it was reverberating up throughout the nineteen seventies of course, right.
Yeah. So I don't think anybody from down there was at this conference. Either was two scientific so Sprague was there. There was a bunch of people that were you know, listened to as scientists. The first time I met Meldrum was at one of the UBC Harrison Hot Springs conferences and he was really young dead and Steinberg was there also. That's when I met Steinberg and Krantz was there. I got a picture of Krantz with the skull and he liked to shock people with things that he would say.
I don't know why, but hey.
It's that personality. Like you know when that famous clip is probably in search over one of those you know, where he says that somebody who you know, talking about the cripple foot stuff in Bossburg, like whoever did this?
Is?
You know da Vinci like creativity and way smarter than me. And that person doesn't exist. And you know when he's when he lays that line down, you can almost see him. You see his eyes are smiling and he can his mouth just starts to curl up because he knew, he knew he was planning a bomb there, and he thought it was hilarious.
I went when I was at his house one time, I had cast at his feet and took a picture of him and his dog with the dog up on his shoulders.
Oh, yeah, you're the photographer.
Yes, I'm a photographer that took that, and that's why he's posed that way. That was just one of his favorite pictures.
You're a photographer in the Smithsonian. That's pretty impressive.
I also was at the Puella when Mark Pinacher, the ex cop, said that he saw a bigfoot and the kids saw the bigfoot, and there was tracks up there, and then there was a bunch of recordings of screams and stuff, and someone would run around and pound on people's houses. Because what happened was the areas started growing and the cities were expanding into the woods, and that was the hilltop above Pualla and there was new housing
projects going in there. There used to be a lot of animals up there and they were being pushed out, and they thought that maybe Bigfoot was one of those animals being pushed out.
Since you were involved in that, did you ever meet Joel Hurd?
Oh yeah, yeah, Yeah.
He's become a good friend of mine. Oh yeah, he lives locally. When he's in town, we try to have lunch or something, and he's always at our events. So if you do ever want to come down to do an event, I can almost guarantee Jobel show up.
Yeah. So you see most of the Bigfoot researchers, they probably have more information and data on other researchers than they actually do on this phenomenon.
Yeah, I think you're right. Well, even still nowadays you look at the YouTube or something and all the bigfooters are talking about themselves or somebody else. They're not talking about the animals. It seems right.
How much did you get to work with Bob Tipmos? Did you get out on the field of Tipmos?
You know, i'd never met Titmus really, Yeah, I didn't get to meet him.
What about Patterson?
No, I didn't meet him, but I joined his club. Yeah, I joined that club, got the book. I was too young actually to get over to Yakba, even though my relatives lived over there. But I did meet Bob, and Bob is a lot different now than he was at the UBC conference. It was pretty reserved back then, not believing in anything, and now it's almost like he's a proponent. I don't know if he's seen the light or what, but in his later days, but he didn't really talk about that much. Then.
Did you get a chance to spend any time in the field with any of these folks, because I'd like to what my ultimate question will be, can you compare and contrast their field methodologies here?
You're impressed with the most Mayan Chinski.
Oh, yeah, he's good. He's really good. I don't know, you know, sorry, Monto. He was supposed to be a field person for a museum back east, and he was on a couple of shows. I took him out. He saw some elk prance and says, there's some humans here. I'm like, okay, that was another person that's really good. I didn't go out in the woods with Well. I went out of the woods with Peter Matheson, and I was shocked that he doesn't have that much experience because
he you know, he was out with gorilla researchers. He was all over the place.
He went to Nepal, he went out with melgum And and min Chinsky. I mean I was I was impressed, like he had some Yeah he got out there.
Yeah. I mean when I was in the coast cart I read his first book on bluewater white death. It was called Blue Meridian. It was about the great white sharks, and they contracted him to be on the on the ship and write a book about it. And man, I just loved that book. And when I finally met him at UBC, I thought, well, you're really young to write that book. I mean, that just blew me away. So then later on when I met him and he said, uh, when he wrote snow Leopard and stuff. I loved the book.
But when I met him, he was more like a hippie. He would walk around barefoot out in the woods out there, and I'm going, what do you Why are you walking into barefoot? He says, I just feel more uncomfortable doing
this is what I did all over the world. I said, well, you know, you can get diseases that way out here, because we have goats and elk and not not very many out there, but deer and goat and bear, and they have parasitic worms that can or that are in the soil and it can get up in your go through your heels and your the sole of your foot. Freaked him out. He was wearing his shoes after that. And then I found out that he died a few years later.
That was so sad. But I fed him. I cooked him in uh and uh doctor Meldrum breakfast, and I screwed up the soft boiled eggs pat but he made him anyway.
But you guys, is that when you had the rock incident when you were a cat with.
Yes, Yes, that was on We were filming King Kong, the real King Kong. Gichan Epitheca is the real King Kong. Yeah, he was there with Meldrum and Isak Masinski's was there and we went across the river with the horse and stuff. That was the second That was the first movie we would especially we did, and then the second one, Giganta, was out further in the same area North Cascades. So that's sort of you know, you've got to ask people, the researchers, you know, what are you doing? Are you
are you one of these ambulance chasers. You go after like a sighting or do you have a study area? And if you have a study area, how do you define this study area? So I told everybody that I have a study area, and Renee asked me what is a study area? I said, well, it's an ecoregions. It's like a watershed, but it's not cut off by water. It's an ecoregion. So everything in that region has flora fauna very similar to one another, and if a species is in there, it's part of the food chain somehow.
So you know, you study everything in that area. You just don't try and look for bigfoot sightings. That's if you just do the bigfoot sightings, then that's ambulance chasing. So if I wanted to find a black bear, and there's twenty thousand of them here in Washington, I wanted to find a black bear, would I wait till I hear about someone seeing one or would I just go out in the woods to where I know the food that they eat is.
And unless, of course, somebody sees one in your area.
Well, even if you get there, what are you going to see? The only thing we've ever seen is footprints. Nobody ever goes out to an area a researcher. At least someone says, I saw a bigfoot here, I'm going to go and see what I can find, see the footprints, and then actually see the creature. The only person I've ever heard someone similar than that would be Patterson. He heard a bunch of footprints were up in that area over and over and over and over, and he went there and he photographed one.
Right.
We actually we did that met the museum because the museum is just a front, so can we can pay our bills and go to the field. Basically, we have a study area we've been pulling some prints out of and one of my guys saw a sasquatch there in August. But again that's a research area, as you're saying, you know, like.
For me, I look at the food sources mainly, and it could be taste, it could be you know how the quality of the food. Certain areas have better berries in other areas because of the minerals in there. They taste better, they're not as tart, or they got more nourishment, or there's a lot more of them. Maybe they're not. They're Himalayan blackberries. There, or maybe native native ones with the Indians used to hoard over are not as good
as the Himalayans. That the Himalayans have a lot more berries than our native ones, but the Himalayans have a lot more stickers and they grow. It's like they take over their weed. But I also look at the fish, and the fish could easily hide a population of animals. The fish they are on a cycle of going out for a couple of years and coming back, and they go up a river when the river is flow at a certain speed and go up and they spawn and they die and they end up on the shoreline up there.
And so I like, I go. I told this to Doug Hicheck. He goes, well, you've been doing rick a phone call recently and I said, well, I've been going up in the woods and I'm visiting these historic places. Goes historic place. I go, yeah, down in Oregon, I've been going around to some of these historic places where they have big ones. I'm what I'm looking for is these specific blocks in the river where salmon can't make
it up. And he goes, what are those? And I said, well, they're waterfalls basically, And he goes, you've got to do something else waterfalls. You got to research some better than waterfalls. I said, no, no, that right, there could actually be something to go to go up to a waterfall and then from that waterfall down on the river. If salmon go up there, either it's the pink shnow chum saw guy whatever, they'll end up on the shoreline there dead
and something's eating, something's taking them. It could be birds, it could be bear, it could be bigfoot. Who knows. He still doesn't think it's a good idea for me to tell people I go up to waterfalls and a photograph.
I think that's fine. I think that's great, because yeah, you're not You're not going to know positive or negative unless you do it, you know. And we've been looking and doing stuff for fifty sixty years now and haven't gotten really far. So I think that you have to try some of these random things that make sense, that has a nice logical foundation, and see what comes of it.
Because we're missing something. We're missing something, we're missing a big chunk of their behavior that would make it a lot easier to get some photographs of them or further expand the cast inventory or whatever. We're missing something, so we got to try these things. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back after these messages.
You're a professional photographer, Rick with like, do you carry a film camera or it's always digital? Do you for the clear shot? You can, you know, do a lot more with the film. Do you ever use those or there's just too inefficient.
I have a film and digital and video, so I have a lot of different cameras. I got like thirty different cameras. It just depends. I carry probably five or six cameras when I go, And depending on what I want to do or what I'm thinking of, or the light or the conditions, is the camera and that I take out? Now that will also dictate what kind of lens I'm going to have, so you know, like I sometimes I have a six hundred millimeters lens with me.
Sometimes I'll have a wide angle. It just depends. Most of the time it's not a zoom, it's fixed or prime lens. So yeah, I one thing that Renee into me, he's always have a camera. That guy, he had a camera where he went. That's why I never trust him. He had a camera everywhere. You went, so you name it. You had a camera.
I always thought you'd be the best guy researcher because you are a professional photographer. And I thought, and you're in a great spot and you go to the same spot so over and over, and I thought, if anyone's going to get a good picture, it's not blurry, and you know, indistinct, it would be you.
Yeah, I've gotten only a couple of blurry And that was I said. Some camera traps out and something knocked the trees down that the cameras were on, and I got a picture of something black moving but it wasn't very good. I couldn't tell what it was. But most of my pictures of other animals come out, you know, real clean, sharp and everything. So it must have been just a shadow. Because if it can stop a deer from moving, or an elk, or stop a bear from moving,
it's going to stop a bigfoot. Unless see these things, they don't have tools. We're not finding, they're not using fire, they're not processing their foods. You know. Every once in a while we hear people saying that they hear them chattering like they're talking, or that they are throwing things rocks and sticks and stuff like that, or some of these tp like structures that there's stick formations they're saying
that maybe are attributed to Bigfoot. But to me, I think they're just another animal, and I think that they're just so rare that it's hard to find them. They're big, and people are forgetting that when they go out and research. I mean, I went with a couple and they're well known researchers and they're on their hands or knees going underneath BlackBerry bushes looking for evidence of Bigfoot stepping there. There's no way you'd see the evidence before you even
got down to the ground. It's like logic left their brain. If something that big was going through, like an elephant, all the vegetation would would indicate that something big went through there. So I don't know. I know that rivers like Washington has thirty five thousand rivers and streams and creeks all together, and there's a lot of fish there. I know about all the animals that are there. I mean,
there's not many cougars. There's only fifteen hundred, and it's only like less than a less than twenty per thousand square miles of territory that that's the home range for cougars, and there's a hell of a lot of deer. They're
starting a population of grizzly now in there. I think that Washington, right next to BC has more sightings and stuff because BC has grizzlies and if anything that would be a danger to a bigfoot, a grizzly, I think so if there's grizzly there, I think there's less sightings. And I also, you know, strongly believe that an animal like a bigfoot would avoid any type of confrontation where
it could get injured the less. I think it's a It might be a natural law that the population of a species, if it's a low population number, that the individual is more cautious in its life, not consciously saying I'm not going to take the chance of being skewered by an elk's antlers, but they look for the easy way. I'm going to go after the young that was just born.
Well, yeah, that makes sense. That's why they raid trash cans, that's why they're eating roadkill. That they're always going after the easy stuff because because they are smart. That's what I would do, and I'm smarter than the average bear. I'd like to think and I would be doing I would be doing the same thing. The average bear might disagree, but that's my opinion.
What's weird is, you know, John green goes the only thing I found similar in my database. He gave me the database and I entered in a lot of it in the BFO. That's why the Washington sightings are so high. But the database in there. He said that, you know, the only thing I could find was that when it rains or when there's a certain amount of water, is
when there is sightings that happen. So there's two things that I thought, Well, the fish like it when it rains, and when the rivers have a seven foot per second flow, that's when the salmons start going up, and so that's a source of food. And the other is is if you look at the states that have these large populations, for the most part, there is a few that have
large populations and this doesn't work out. But if you look at there's like thirty one states that have elk breeding and the rest of them don't that elk breeding gives a pretty good meal at certain times of the year, and those areas where the breeding and the calving occur have been in areas where it seems that bigfoot sightings and reports and information coming out of those areas are
more aggressive for some reason. And so like, the elk population for Utah is pretty huge, and Oregon is really huge. Washington it's fairly huge. We're talking sixty to one hundred and fifty thousand elk. I'm surprised that Oregon has as many as it does, one hundred and fifty hundred and forty one hundred and thirty something like that.
Oregon has the third highest number of forested acres of all fifty states after Alaska, and crazy enough, but Georgia has more forested acres than Oregon does.
Yeah, that's a that's a makeup they're making up for when they cut all the trees down, so all the trees that they ever knew.
Yeah, we were number two, and we being Oregon, we were number two until it's a few years ago. I get so, I guess our logging caught up to us and maybe perhaps George's reforestation.
So, hey, Rick, I was going to ask you, how often do you find scat and do you find it in association with trackways? And if so, is do you notice that dietary changes during the year. And do they hide the scat that you've found.
No, I don't find that much scap. And the scat that I do find from other animals, the majority of the time, I find it in the middle of a road like they're scared and they just defecate right there. Now, I have seen a lot of bear right near a place where they are eating a lot of berries. I guess it looses up their bowels or something. Yeah, and I've seen where you know fish. I mean I didn't believe that. You know, maybe a bigfoot could catch a fish they don't have like a bear does. But I
pulled fish right out of the river. I pull pulled steel head and stuff like that. And I found some weird stuff right next to where those I did that. You know, it looks like someone peeled a fish and the head was gone, the tail was there, and the skin was pulled back. Now, I don't think a bear does that, and I know an eagle wouldn't do that. So what did it?
Well, I got them catching fish. I got a pretty interesting story. I was up talking to people in tweets up there, you know, in quinn Out Reservation, and they were telling me because they had a group of teenagers, like a mob of like anywhere from eleven to fourteen juvenile bigfoots would pack up around their village and they'd see them all the time for years. It quit probably
it really slowed down about fifteen years ago. But they had a story about watching in daylight during a salmon run the group of young bigfoot's, about ten or eleven of them in the river and the Quets River right where it does the big horseshoe bends around of the village, and they watched them jumping in and they would herd the salmon into the shallow areas and like, and they'd grab them and then they'd run off and they'd hold it like a football and run away like not to
share it. And they'd run up somewhere on the embankment and needed it alone and wouldn't share. And then when it got down to like three or four bigfoots left, they just gave up because there wasn't enough of them to corral the salmon anymore.
Wow.
Yeah, who knows, Man, that seems like an awful lot of bigfoots to be seen at once.
Yeah, I've heard that. I think I heard Chris talk about something like that up in Canada.
Yeah, I mean, Ice have some more data points supporting something like that. But there are a couple a couple of reports of them peeling back the skin of other animals. Yeah, there's one I know where he's sasquatch was holding a fawn like a baby deer and peeling the skin off it. And there's another one I think with a dog. That might be a few more in my records. I some of the memory to recall them.
Well, in Louisiana, the DuPonts, the cattle dog went out and when the squatch was around, it pulled the hide off, and the dog came running back with no hide left, and it just ran back screaming and then died like twenty minutes later.
Wow, bummer.
Yeah, I had, I've had I've seen stuff like that, but it was another dog that ripped off the skin. They can do that.
So nowadays, you've basically escaped the spotlight, which is I congratulate you on that. By the way, you've escaped the spotlight in Bigfoot, which is kind of nice. And you can do things quietly at your own pace and without anybody else criticizing or yelling or screaming or whatever they like to do, because bigfooting hasn't really changed, you know,
since the nineteen seventies or before. What do you do, like, like how often, like say during the good months where it's more the woods are more accessible in the mountains and whatever, how often do you get out and what does an expedition look like for you nowadays?
Well, I like to look for tracks because that's the immediate concern. So I wait until it rains, and then when it rains, that's when.
I go out in the rain or after it can be.
In when it's when it's in there because when it starts to rain, because it'll wash a lot of my sand away.
Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bobo will be right back after these messages. Are you finding tracks in the same general area that you found them before?
Yeah, And there's some specifics to where the tracks are. First, you know, you look at you only look in areas where tracks are are going to be seen or where they're going to be made along a river. If if the river is like loose gravel, I mean you're not gonna you know, go there. If I spots on rivers, where it's good conditions for it. Then sometimes on the side of the roads depends. If the vegetation is growing up to the edge of the road, that's no good.
So I wait until either that is all washed away or it's just muddy. And you look for prints along there. When I'm walking down a dirt road or something, I walk on one side going up and on the other side coming down. I don't walk in the middle of the road, and I find a lot of tracks along there. They come and they stand by the side, you know things, stand by the side of the road, check it out, and then cross it and call the other side. So
it's just common sense. A lot of times. It's almost like if you know, you're like you're playing a game and you don't want to be seen, and so you might go out in the open. As soon as something happens, you hear some or you see something in the distance, you think that they could see you. You change your body shape, you squat down, or you jump, or you fall down, or you get out of that line of sight. You try and avoid. It's almost like an evasion kind of technique. And deer do it too, but they do
it a different way. They can hop and then drop their tail and they turn their butt towards you, and then they turn around look at you with their butt towards you, and it breaks up their look. That's if they think you are a threat. I don't think elk do that, but a lot of times elk will lower their antlers and it's almost like they're behind a tree with limbs and a bear I think. I don't think bears of that bright and they just they waddle along.
They don't care their eyesight is poor. There's a sense of smell is good. I have a blind cat and it acts like a bear at home, and it just waddles around, whereas I got another cat and it zings around. It's like super hyper sensitive to airy stimuli. But that blank cat is is really lethargic, and so I think the eyesight is really, you know, one of those kinds of things. And Bigfoot has got eyes like us, meaning
that they're both forward facing. They're not on the side of the head like a deer or even I think a bears pretty much on the side of the head too. They have to turn their head a little bit to see what's right in front of them. They're kind of the same cat sizes are they look straight at you, They're not on the side of the head. They're a predator. So I don't know if you know I've heard where you know, the eyes facing straight ahead as a predator.
But anyway, I go to places where it's noisy and wet, and that's waterfalls because I make a lot of noise if I'm walking around trying to get up and down into into some deep canyons, and with a waterfall there nothing really hears you.
And as that panned out, if you if you've had some positive results by frequenting these waterfalls.
I found a few interesting things that look like tracks. I wouldn't nothing i'd cast or take a picture of, but they look like something had gone through that area with a soft foot. Didn't look like it was a boot,
didn't look like it was a small foot. Knocks off some you know moss on a rock that is a large moss section of it on a rock, and then further down there's another rock and it's within the bigfoots reported you know, step it could it could reach one to the other with one foot a human would be
able to. So that it's interesting. And sometimes I see where rocks are picked up and disturbed and they're turned over, and you would think that maybe it was, you know, like a hoofed foot that kicked it, but it isn't. It's like only you know, two or three inches away, but it's turned completely over and it's the same distance like a bigfoot would biped would that's the size of a bigfoot. So I've seen stuff like that.
Have you seen a bigfoot yet, Rick, No, I haven't.
I've seen some strange things out of the corner of my eyes, could be in a bird or something like that moving flying by and just caught your attention and then it drifts into a shadow. But I've also read where apparently we tell stories in our heads of what we're seeing. It goes directly to the front of our brain and tells us a story I see is completely different than what anybody else sees because it's all interpreted by my brain's storytelling ability. I see something and it's
telling me the story of what I'm seeing. What you see is telling you the story of what you see. And I really recommend everybody reading a book called The Science of Storytelling, and it goes into a lot of really interesting stuff. It's more than just being fooled by your eyes. It's your brain that is interpreting what your eyes see. Your eyes don't have a memory. Your eyes are just interpreting signals. Your brain is what has the
memory and what's doing stuff with what your eyes are seeing. So, no, I haven't I don't claim to see a bigfoot. I haven't seen a bigfoot. It's not like I'm hiding that I've seen a bigfoot. And if I ever saw a bigfoot, i'd probably tell people, yeah I think I seen one. Yeah.
So for more paranoid listeners, he's not hiding anything from you.
What's the most compelling audio, Like, have you had like a class being counterlike that was intense, or you like, you know, you got your hair up like anything like that.
Well, on the Schook of Expedition, I got my hair up. That was there was some some really strange stuff there. And I know Matt claims that some of it was just doctor bam bam uh talking in his sleep, but it wasn't. It was not him talking in a sleep. It was bizarre and and it was it was spooky. Other sounds that I've heard the most compelling sounds that I've heard have been at Bumping Lake. My parents called me.
They were hunting over there, and this is over on the cascades, going over to that cheese and it's a it's a cabin area, and they were hunting and there were some tracks found and I got the pictures from the people that took the pictures sent them to me. They were slides, and I sent them down to Peter and he never returned them, so I was sad. I took some made some prints room, so I have that. But anyway, there are really some good prints in snow.
And the sounds that they were hearing there were like warning, you know, for humans to get out of there. They heard these rifle shots and it was almost like, you know, there's another tribe of people that were saying, you know, get out of our area. This is our hunting ground. And and so it was kind of eerie listening to
these these screens over there. And I tried to recreate the screens my parents had recorded on a little eight track, not a track, but a little a cassette recorder, and I transferred to a bigger recorder and then it went to the University of Washington had them. It was the first time I ever heard of the audio department there and had them tried to recreate it so that they could get it cleaned up and like they make the sound.
So they did that with a synthesizer and put it on there, and I tried to use that for call blasting. That was way back, that was late seventies. Then I took it to the University of Washington, so that was before call blasting. I wouldn't call it call blasting, and I tried it a couple of times, and I didn't
have the power behind there for portable stereo. You just played it in your car and the finished product I had to record it after playing on a reel, to reel on speakers and then record it onto a tape machine, then take that tape and stick it in. I had an eight tap eight track tape deck and an eight track tape recorder, and I transferred over to the eight track and put that into the eight track player because because that's weren't there at that time.
Were you ever stoked like you thought it was a big foot, like you know, hearing like the crunch and falling you out or anything like that or bluff charge.
Yeah, I've been stocked, but it was a bear, and I stalked. Another time it was a cougar, but not a big foot. They showed themselves the bear. I thought bears were stupid. I still do. But we were falling. I was falling a bear, and all of a sudden, I see my footprints and the bear was on top of them. Go wait a minute. I traveled around in a circle and the bear is chasing me.
They're smart dogs, you know, basically is what they are.
You know now the cougars, they're different. They're scary. I'll tell you. When I was on that horse and we got off the horses, we were crossing the river. The river had been washed The bridge there was washed out, so there has been like five years that it's been washed down. So that side of the river was all overgrown on the end, and there was a lot of logs down on the road stuff. So we were we crossed the river on the horses. The horses got all beat up a crossing that river. They were bloody on
the other side. I felt sad for them. And we got to the point where my boots were in the water. It was deeper than I thought, and I was surprised that the horses didn't lose their footing and started swimming, and then I went to ruined my ten thousand dollars video camera. It was it was scary, but when we finally got over there, we dried off a little bit. And then we're walking, or the horses were walking. We're on their back, and we come up to a log.
We have to get off, and then we get them to come over the log, and then we get back on and we have to get the camera ready and stuff like that, and I have a pistol on and we keep on going. So after about the fifth log across the road, there was a big one and I had to go under the log instead of over it, and the horse had to be led over it on the side of the road and threw a bunch of mud to get across. And then we got back on and I'm going, this is getting old. I don't know,
you know, when are we going to turn around? This
is this is getting ridiculous. And we'd only traveled, you know, maybe four miles on the horses with all these down trees, and I get back up on the horse and we went I don't know, I had the video camera in my arm, and it was the camera lens was pointed towards the guy that owns the horses to my left, and we're walking on the horses just I don't know, maybe ten feet and the side of the of the road on my side had a lot of forest up there, and it was a steep hill, and then there was
this big rock. I didn't see anything. And then I get past the rock, just like I don't know, not very far, maybe a foot to two foot past this big rock. It's like above my head, about at least say eight feet above my head. I'm about five feet away from the side of the road, and all of a sudden, this thing lands right from the horse. It's got a tail sticking up and it's brown and it's wagon and it leaps off the center of the road and over to the side, and then you see it moving through
the forest and it was a cougar almost. I could feel the air going past my.
Heads straight out of that Sasquatch movie from the nineteen seventies, you know that one. Ron Olson kind.
Of really I didn't know that, but.
Well, yeah, they're like they're their caravan of horses, you know, got attacked by a cougar or whatever.
So I couldn't believe that. And then I found out that that's where the Game Department releases their cougars that they catch that are too close to populations. They come out, they catch them after people see them, and then they release them out there. No wonder, there's cougar's there.
Yeah, yeah you think.
Yeah. I wanted to ask you what's your thought on tree breaks, glyphs and cheaping structures.
You know, I've never seen a TP being made, so I don't have an explanation for it. The twists, this is what I would say. If there's a twist in a limb or something like that and it goes to the right, there's a good chance that's just natural. Somehow it happens, especially with lightning strikes. It affects some sort of structure inside the tree and they start acting weird and everything. This is a right hand universe and things travel in that direction to the right. Everything twists to
the right for some reason. That's how the electrons go around the atoms and how It's just how things work in a toilet bowl. Yeah, if if it goes around the opposite way to the left, then I start wondering what could have done that? And I don't know what, but I never I've seen the you know, the the teepee like structures out in the woods. I don't know
what causes them. It doesn't make sense when I look up and see where these things are coming from, that they could have been blown over there and land that way doesn't make sense. It's almost like, is someone someone climbing up these trees, breaking them off and throwing them down like spears?
How about sasquatches in trees? I know you're like, you know, you're you got all evergreens around you for the big part of where you're at a lot of evergreens, and we hear either more in deciduous trees than they climbing the trees. But what's your take on that? Do you have any experience with that or ideas.
I've seen a couple of black things up in trees and I took in some pictures, but I couldn't tell what it was and it wouldn't move, And I've walked up to the tree, I can't get up there, and so I just thought better of it, thinking that it must have been you know, a cub or a bear, up there, what kind of it was at least one hundred feet up in the air, and they were fir and pine. They were pretty far up there, and where they were was close to the trunk, not out on
a limb, but close to the trunk. And the limbs were so thick that parts of it were broken up, so it didn't look like it was one big black thing, but you knew it was.
Did you see claw marks on the near of the base.
No, I didn't, so I don't know what it was. That's telling Yeah, yeah, that was That was that Rattlesnak Reservoir, which is close to the talt Indian are not tilt. Yeah, it's a tolt, but it's not the Indian reservation. It's the watershed for Seattle, so it's out by Izakuah.
Is that watershed off limits?
Yes, so you can walk in. If they catch you, you get in.
Trouble, gotcha.
Yeah, of course. We have the bull run over here that you're not even allowed to walk in there. But on the other side of the hill there's the Dallas Watershed and that's where Peter Burn suggested I go big footing. We I already knew about it by that time, I already found a spot over there, and you're allowed to drive through it. You just can't stop and get out.
Supposedly, when I was doing cedar salvage, I worked in that area, and it's really rugged. In the water down there in that reservoir is just crystal clear. Oh man, looks so beautiful, and it's really dangerous because the way it's so steep walking on those hillsides. They hire people to come in and do cedar salvage and also to do pre commercial thinning. They call it that. It's not really pre commercial because they don't allow commercial thinning out there,
and the RESI in the watershed. But the way you use a bow bar, it's hollow on a chainsaw and you cut it and then these trees that are about to well to maybe the most is two and a half inches in with at the base, and you cut up and it falls into the middle of their boat bar, and then you flip the saw and the tree goes flying and it leaves that stump there. And it's a small stump, but it keeps the ground from washing away, and it allows certain species or certain trees to grow
and other ones to not crowd them. So you just thin the trees there and you get tired, and you're at an angle, a real sharp angle on those hills, and when you're cutting them, you end up cutting them like spikes. So if you fall, you're going to be skewered.
Maybe impaled by your own work. Right.
Yeah, So you know, there's a lot of dangerous stuff out there, and for big One to be out some of that area, it's just amazing that we don't find one, you know, debt from something that humans have done.
But as you mentioned, there's so few of them, and where they like to hang out aren't exactly places people love to go.
Right. This is an animal that is very in tune with with this, with the ecology. It has a very specific niche and it's a it's adaptive and so uh that's how if it is, if there is such a thing as a big Way, it's got to be so adaptive that it can survive in low numbers and it
is commanding of its environment. It knows it has very good mental models of when when uh, vegetation changes and when this that if humans are interfering in acting with the environment around them, what dangers those are When the food comes up in this area, when the food comes up in that area, all sorts of things like that, Like you know, they can tell when the weather is going to change. I don't know, it's just it's got to be so in tune.
Yeah, it's phenomenal, phenomenal animals all around, and the lack of proof is testament to that, I think in a lot of ways. Well, you know, Rick, we're drawn to the end of our regular episode here, but we have a member section if you can stick around for a few minutes, because we haven't even touched on the Scuokum stuff, the Skukum casts and I have a ton of questions about that, So why don't we end the regular recording for this week and we'll talk about the Skukum expedition
in the member section. Okay, thank you very much, Rick, I really appreciate you coming on, Bobo.
Yeah, it's almost like getting Elvis in the middle to get you on here. We've been trying for a while. So thanks a lot for coming on.
I don't call it that thanks.
Okay, folks, we're going to take it to the member section now, the Patreon folks, and so thanks for listening, and thanks to Rick Mill for joining us, so until next week, you all keep it squatchy.
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