CLASSICS: Michael Freeman!

are scheduling issues and all this other stuff. But now is the perfect time because well, this gentleman has a book coming out very very soon that it's going to blow the socks off of a lot of people. I've been helping out with the book a little bit. I know about what's in it's and stuff. It's gonna be fantastic. But really, let's get right to it. We have not a researcher per se, but the son of one of the most famous, controversial and active researchers of all time.

We have mister Michael Freeman, son of Paul Freeman on the podcast today, and he has come on because well, now he's got a book coming out, and also secondly, he's kind of tired of all the misinformation, lies, fabrications and rumors swirling about his father and he wants to set the record straight. And I'm a big advocate of the Freeman and Blue Mountain evidence in general, so I jumped at the chance. Michael Freeman, Welcome to Bigfoot and

Beyond with Cliff and the Bobes. I'm so happy you can come on.

what do you think about the evidence? Or have you never seen it? Is the question, because I find a lot of these people talking smack about your dad have never really spent the time with the evidence, or they may have seen one or two casts. And while since I did bring up Renee, I want to kind of defend Renee in a way. He was a very good researcher. He was really meticulous and thoughtful and a lot of things he did, but he was also kind of you know,

we talked a lot of smack about other people. And also, and this is the point I want to make, he did not have the information about the Sasquatch foot that we do today. There's a video on Todd Prescott's excellent site of Sasquatch Archives where the shows that Renee de Hindin's with a handful of people in his backyard and they lay out I think it was the eighty seven trackway.

I think there were five foot prints in a roof the eighty seven trackway, if I remember correctly, and he laid them all out, and he just kind of dug into him and said, ah, this and that, look at the sausage toes. Are you telling me this? And thankfully doctor Meldrum jumped on board and wrote an answer to every one of the things that Renee the Hinden found to be a problem about that trackway. And see what it was is Renee didn't know as much as we

do now about the Sasquatch foot. So his criticisms were based on less information. But now that we know so much more about the Sasquatch foot and its capabilities and flexibilities and all that stuff, what Renee actually was nitpicking about are actually reasons to think that they're real. Like Renee was always commenting about the sausage toes because they look like little sausages. But what he didn't understand is that the toes have a lot of what's called dorsive flexion,

basically flexing upwards. And when if your toes are flexed upwards, the only part of the toe that's going to impress into the ground are the toe stems, and they're going to be pointy at the end, and they don't look like toes, but they are. And you can see some of these things in those casts, and Renee saw them and thought that it was nonsense and fake because of it.

But yeah, so I would encourage people out there to maybe perhaps form their own opinion instead of relying on those who came before us that perhaps don't didn't know or don't know as much about Sasquatch footprints as they could have. So yeah, rumor versus evidence. Man, Well, anyway, so your dad got into this in nineteen eighty two, and when he saw one on June tenth, tenth, right, it was the tenth or six tenth.

on multiple occasions. I remember him sleeping on our pullout sofa bed, and I have real vivid memories of Grover Krantz as well, in the cloud of smoke from his cigarettes that kind of always surrounded him, kind of like pai pin from you know, peanuts in the dust, if

you imagine Grover. But I was a little too young to have I think a lot of real vivid memories of what was happening at the time, as far as his sighting and him kind of getting in the paper and becoming somewhat of a celebrity, you know, or any of the problems that he was having with the floor service and things like that. I have, I think better memories now that I'm older, because I know more information.

So it seems like I remember a lot, But I think a lot of that is stuff that I've learned since I got older.

And then of course as I get older and I make all these acquaintances like you guys, you know, and other people, I always learn more information because you know, not everybody knows everything, and sometimes I learned things that are new to me, you know still this week.

the unsung heroes of the Blue Mountain Evidence. And you know, that's something I'd like to bring up and point out, is that the Blue Mountain Evidence is very often all just referred to as a whole as the Freeman evidence. But that's not really the case. Your dad was out there a lot, but at the same time, there were a lot of other people involved. Maybe talk about some of them for us.

at one point in time he was out there. You had Dark Glasgow Addington. She was Dark Glasgow at the time. She was out there in the field, and you know, since we brought her up, she's a lovely human being and a real pioneer actually as being one of the early female researchers and especially you know, for that particular area. But there was a lot of people that were out there. Kranz came out there and he spent a lot of

time with my dad. After eighty two, you had people like Greg May who was a survival expert and wilderness survival instructor at Washington State University, and he spent a lot of time out there and was part of that entourage for about four or five years. I'm sure I'm forgetting someone as well. But yeah, it's not just my

dad and it's not just his evidence. There's multiple people pulling multiple footprints and hair samples and finding trackways and even having sightings, you know, over this fifteen twenty year period. But everyone likes to pile it on the Freeman name. So you know, I hear that all the time.

The Golden Age of the Blue Mountains, from my counting is about sixty or so track fines, a lot more prints, but that's because people a good researchers go to a location and if there's multiple prints, they usually come back with multiple casts. That's not always the case, but it started being the case with your father. I know. I think your dad started with one or two casts from a location, but he eventually started bringing lots of casts back from certain track fines.

that's not true. And when you look at let's just say, my father, in his fifteen years of research in the Blue Mountains. He's got about forty five to fifty casts, I think is what the number is, and that averages out to about three casts per year, which isn't something you know, that's an outrageous number over a fifteen year period.

And when you start taking into account that there were two, three, up to five sometimes casts that were taken from a single trackway, that really cuts that number down even more. It's not like he was out there finding tracks and making casts every day. We're talking about finding maybe one or two sets of tracks per year if that, you know. And out of the forty five to fifty casts that we have, we have seven casts that come from the first six days that he was ever even exposed to bigfoot,

you know, that were taken. So that cuts that number down, you know, to like what thirty eight and something or you know around there. But and I think that you know, at least Cliff, you're in agreement with me, when we look at the Blue Mountain evidence that we're looking at probably four or five individuals in about fifteen to twenty years. There's not a whole lot of bigfoot running around there.

Two that we can identify completely, you know, that we think are female and we can get into that, you know, also in a little bit. And then we have a big male that is very elusive that we don't have a whole lot of evidence on. And then we have the possibility of one or two more in the early eighties, which we're not quite sure. One of them could be one that we already love, but we're looking at probably about four or five, and then maybe a juvenile that

gets thrown into that. So it's not like my father has forty five CASTI It's it's forty five different bigfoot that are running around outside of wall wall. You know, we're looking at four animals in twenty years.

don't have records, of all that stuff. But I have a pretty decent record, So let's just say, let's just say give it the benefit that out twenty, maybe as many as twenty different track finds that there are casts from,

and so that's what two a year. So the people who complain about Paul Freeman finding three a year is being too many, well what do they have to say the Bluff Creek stuff, you know, because there were two a year on average there, and some of those track finds there were ten or more casts obtained from them, like the Patterson Giblin site for example. So I don't know.

It seems that some of the arguments against the Freeman stuff like he is the luckiest bigfoot in the world, or there's he was finding too many things to be taken seriously, Well not really when you look at it from that perspective, And as a follow up question of what you were saying, by the best of your memory, how many weekends or whatever a month did your dad spend in the woods, because the Bluff Creek situation wasn't like that. They weren't They weren't out there two or three times a month.

and my family. But we're talking three to four days a week, at least four four or five hours at a time, at least sometimes overnight, sometimes a week at a time, sometimes two weeks at a time, gone from home, camping by himself in the mountains before cell phones, with no way to be in contact, you know, with my mom, who you know, for some periods of time didn't know if he was alive or day until he got into CV rage and he could call her on his CV radio.

And you know, we had one of the home as well. But yeah, the man spent a lot of time, more time than he probably should have to be honest.

as well in some ways. What kind of a consequence or what kind of weight did your mother carry because of your father's for lack of a better term, obsession with the subject.

funding for bigfoot research. And when my grandmother died and left her home to my mother, my parents sold it to support my dad's bigfoot research, you know. And he spent a lot of time working a night job so he could get off work at you know, four or five o'clock in the morning and go directly to the mountains and then come home and get what sleep he could, and you know, go back to work and turn around

and go back to the mountains the next day. But you know my mom even dealing with all that, My mother was great and she's actually, if you don't know this, responsible for at least ninety nine percent of the documentation that was done on any of my dad's evidence, with the exception of his map. That's the one thing she never touched was his map in the garage. And I know that, Cliff. You have that out at the Bigfoot Center there and boring. Now it's on display. It's lovely.

But every photograph we have that is documented is my mother's handwriting. Every letter of correspondence that was written to anybody else was typed by my mother. Displayed boards that were put together for you know, mall setups or going to any type of meeting or convention where he was speaking was done so by my mother. She worked tirelessly

to catalog this stuff. And my father gets credit for doing a really good job of documenting his evidence for the time period that he was a researcher because he was one of the ones that was best at it. But if you want to know the truth, it was my mother that did that, you know, and my dad wanted her to, but she stuck by it, and she did it, and she stuck with him through thick and thin and through you know, taking criticism and being the wife of the crazy person and all this stuff. You know,

she deserves a lot of credit. And I actually I have one picture of her in the field. It's going to be in the book. It's the only one I've got. She's actually out there standing in the field, you know, attempting to do some type of research. But you know that wasn't her thing. And but she certainly was active behind the scenes. And we owe her a debt of gratitude, uh for the documentation that she did. Otherwise a lot of this stuff would still be a mystery.

My dad was the sole supporter. She raised children. And as my dad got older and you know, around I think it was right around nineteen ninety nineteen ninety one, as his health started to decline and he wasn't working as much and he was spending more time out there, she actually went and she went to community college and she got a degree, and she went and got a job as an accountant and was supporting the family pretty much of that time, which allowed my dad to spend

more time out doing you know, research.

sighting there in the Mill Creek water shed. From what I've read and what I believe I think I know, is that he was basically one of these outriders, somebody on a horseback kind of patrolling the watershed circumference to make sure that nobody is going in there because the whole area is off limits. He had his siding thing crossed the road, he smelled it, he saw it, he cast a couple prints there. Rumor has it, and I'd like some clarification on this, please, Rumor has it that

your dad was fired. Is that true or not? Well, first of.

And had taken some public criticism from the Forest Service. And as I had mentioned earlier, my grandmother had passed away and left a house to my mom, and that was in Camus, Washington, which is where we were from. And it was a really good excuse to say I'm out of here and you know, go start a new life someplace else, and you know, as we know, that didn't last very long.

was leaving and he was going. And he wasn't working for anyone at the time except himself because it was my parents' business. And so he was, you know, leaving, and he was leaving. My mom and my older brother you know, who was sixteen seventeen at the time, were pretty much you know, kind of running the you know, their their deli there. But yeah, he would disappear. I didn't know any better. I was too young. I really wasn't sure what was going on except you know, Dad

was gone. He was he was doing this, he was doing that, he was working, but he was going back to Walla Walla. Often he would take my older brother with him and he was hunting bigfoot and that time is what he was doing. And that's why we don't have a whole lot of casts or tracks that had come out of that time period, because that's not what he was interested in. He was spending a lot of time in the Winnaha to Candid Wilderness and he was going to kill one. I mean that that's what he was there for.

please if I'm wrong. Six days later there was another track find there of the famous dermals, the footprints that gave that animal its name, and Joel Harden was brought in to check them out, and he deemed them fake. And of course most people, I'm sure most of our listeners are aware of this because they have read doctor Krantz's book bigfoot Sasquatch Evidence, or the first edition which is big Footprints. And of course, if you're one of our listeners who has not read this, you really ought

to read doctor Krantz's book. That's kind of required reading for bigfooters. In my opinion, it seems to me that a lot of the things that Joel said about those tracks why they were fake, well, it seems largely due to the fact that Joel was an experienced man tracker and sasquatches are not humans because the things I mean, I just read read the chapter last night in preparation

for this interview. And when I say the chapter, I not only read doctor Ranz's chapter, but I also read the chapter in Joel's book himself, his own book critiquing these particular tracks, and I got to say, like, I know, I mean no disrespect to mister Harden, of course, but I'm not very impressed with his reasons as to why these tracks are fake. And if I may, I'm going to read just something out of the book here, out of Joel's book, so supposedly in his own words, although

he may have had a ghostwriter. It says here the Forest Service added that some somehow, in the three weeks after the sighting, ABC, NBC, and CBS, all the television networks at the time, had gotten winto the Bigfoot siding and they had all filed a core to action in Washington to force the Forest Service to permit them access

into the Mill Creek watershed. And then he goes on, and this is the key sentence here, the Forest Service had been given forty eight hours to answer the injunction by coming up with evidence that reported the sighting was in fact a hoax. And that's why Joel Harden was called in by his boss to come look at these footprints. That sounds a little biased to begin with. And when you combine that with a sentence out of doctor Krantz's book, and I have that right here. See this is on

page seventy nine of doctor Krantz's book. Talking about Harden, he says he judged them the tracks to be fakes. In fact, he made this pronouncements before he even looked at the tracks. According to three Forest service employees who told me overhearing this, so that doesn't bode well. And of course he does have spec reasons, and one of the reasons I thought was odd is that the dramaticglythics were too In fact, the tracks were too perfect. They

were too good there for their fake. He also commented that there was no straddle in them, but that's a known feature of sasquatch trackways. He said, it would be impossible for a creature of this size to have no to have no straddle like that, but yet at the same time, that's exactly what evolution would eventually come up

with because of their mass. Doctor Krantz goes into that subject quite quite a bit when he talks about the gait of the Patterson Gimlin film creature, because if there was straddle, and of course strattle is a distance left and right of a center line of the trackway. If there was significant straddle, an animal that size would be wobbly back and forth, so you would expect a compact center of gravity, therefore a very little straddle, if any, in their trackway. And that's exactly what he saw, and

that's one of the reasons he thought was fake. He also goes on to say that for a human to do that, it's next to impossible, but he did say it could be possible with practice. Does that imply that your dad actually practice walking like that and he knew what the gates of an animal of that size would be, would be necessary, you know, we would have to have And there's so many of the things in there just don't make quite much quite sense to me, you know.

So what did your what did your dad? Do you remember your dad saying anything at all about mister Harden.

I'm sure he's great at his job as a man tracker, you know, for the border patrol. But you know, like you were saying, you got to look at the facts. He's a government employee that's brought in by government agency that does not want to allow the media access to the watershed. He's brought in to say that the tracks are fake. First and foremost. Mister Harding also is not a believer in bigfoot, So any set of tracks that you put in front of him, I'm sure he's going

to tell you that they're fake. Mister Harding also has no experience at all tracking any type of bigfoot before or even higher primate, so you know, when you start adding it up, he was kind of in over his head, you know a little bit. And I also believe there's something in that book about sticking a straw three feet into the mud or something where one of these footprints were well.

twelve to twenty four inches into the mud. And then he decided to shove straw down in it after, you know, into the bottom of the footprints, to show that the sasquats had not bottomed out. But it was just an artificial impression of some sort. But that doesn't make sense to me either, and I think Krantz addresses that in his book as well.

the paths of their feet. And my dad goes on to say that apparently mister Harden failed to realize that high primemates do indeed have that, and even dogs and pigs have them on their nose, you know, so it's not something that's out of the ordinary. But as far as you know, mister Harden was concerned. You know, dermal ridges are a human trade and you know, that's what he's used to tracking, and that's what he's looking for.

And he also, you know, as I said, he has no experience tracking lightfoot, so he doesn't understand the gate or you know, the anatomy of the foot or you know, the flexation of the foot, anything like that, or even what an animal of that size that we would you know, presume is a primate would be capable of doing.

the report and confronted Freeman. He admitted to authorities that he had not only made up the story, but he had also constructed some feat quote unquote to make tracks his evidence to validate his siding, and had done so in previous events. What's that about.

in my two thousand and one. So I don't know anything about that. I know that there's no sightings in ninety three, there's no sidings in ninety four. I seriously, seriously doubt first of all, that he was ever confronted by any sheriff's deputies. First of all, I just don't see that happening. Secondly, he knew them all in the area and knowing my dad. And I'm laughing because I

can envision his interaction with them. He you know, would have told them And you can bleep me out here if you need to kiss his ass and prove it. It's exactly what he would have said in a situation like that. So I don't know where this comes from. And you know Hardin's book, this little section. I've seen this before, I've read it. I've had some people throw it up in my face. But I can tell your point. You know, for a fact, he never admitted to anyone

hoaxing anything. Number one. Number two, if he had even to the sheriff's deputies, man, it would have been all over the papers. He was big news in Walla Walla at that time. Like that would have been everywhere, it would have been in the news, you know, and that certainly like didn't happen. So yeah, I'm not sure. I don't even know where that comes from. But I would actually go as far as to say that that is complete fabrication.

we should also talk about. But the film is one of the things that your dad is most known for, but very few people realize that that was the second time he filmed one. So let's talk a little bit about that first film that very few people have seen. And even you gave me a copy of it, and I still have not even sat down and gotten deep into it, by the way, So I apologize for not doing my homework on that level. But I have watched it.

I think you watched it with me. He might have been watching me with me.

I think that's what he says. But by the time he gets the camera up and it's not zoomed in, of course, and we go back to you know, my dad just wasn't a technological you know guy, you know, and anyone who's ever seen that or listened to I guess that audio for the returned camera if you know what I'm talking about, you know what I'm talking about.

entire body. But what's interesting with that one is that it stops completely and turns around to look at him for a couple of seconds. It just stops, and then it continues on its way, and he ends up, you know, following it and following some of the footprints and we'll talk about those in a second, and it ends up going in very dark, very heavy, heavy forest, and he kind of gets spooked a little bit and he isn't sure if he wants to follow it in there, you know.

But I know one of the things that you and I talked about, and we'll have to look at it a little more in depth and a little further. And I've actually been trying to look at some stills from that video is that I believe it's a different individual than the one that he gets in August in Ddux spread. It looks like it's probably a different bigfoot, and it looks like it's probably an individual that we know is in the area from other footprints that we have from the past.

got out of it instead of leaving it open. And I think that may have spooked that animal or caused it to take a different trajectory. Not that it hadn't heard him driving down the road, you know, but I think a loud noise like that probably wasn't helpful, you know, either in that situation, but you know he was upset. But you know, it's you know, it is what it is. And I know that it had some slight local media coverage, you know, nothing grand, nothing like dtave.

this as well, because you're educating on the subject. But you have the right guy who has the right skill set, which is a trained hunter and tracker, who has the right area, which is a hotbed, which is what the Blue Mountains were, you know, especially at that time, and he has the time to devote to do it, you

know you're going to get more results. And you know, one of my dad's quotes actually is that you know, if you go fishing once a year, you may not catch anything, but if you go fishing every day, you're going to get something.

It's the right area. So we're hitting it hard. And you know, money Maker commented on this, if you read his expedition page, he comments that like, yeah, everywhere might look good for Bigfoot, but they're not everywhere. They're in certain areas and that's the truth. That is the truth. It's even to the point now and I've said it before in the podcast when people come in the museum and they say, yeah, I saw one up so and so, and I go, oh, yeah, was it on this road?

They go, well, yeah, it was on that road. How did you know, because that's where everybody else sees them because they hang out in certain areas. The spot and the researcher are just part of a perfect storm that can come together if everything is right. People are willing to spend the time out there.

be better than him. He was kind of the perfect guy in the perfect spot. People can say whatever they want, you know, people can past judgment and they can do all this and they can you know, like I said, listen to these rumors, but you know, and it's not just my dad. As we talked about earlier, it's the Blue Mountains and the Blue Mountain Evidence and all the people involved in that. They have produced some of the best footprint and cast evidence that's ever been found. And all you got to do is.

and what it's capable of doing. You can't just look at a half a dozen casts and think, oh, yeah, I know about bigfootprints. I've got six, Well that's cute. No, you need a lot more than that and improve in the putting bows. How many casts do you have?

And you have such interesting insight into this because you knew what your dad was up to at the time, You knew what happened on that day, and you were even the first person of your family at least that he spoke to after the footage was obtained. So fill us in, tell us the story of the de Duck footage.

lot of the water sources had dried up. And we also have in anyone who's ever seen his map, if you haven't seen it, and go to the North American big Foot Center and check it out. The area around De Duck Spring is by far the most active area for Bigfoot evidence in you know, that Blue Mountain region right there. Year after year after year, you have evidence coming out of there. You know, he he knew they were there, he knew they were getting water, and he

was going up there every day. And now my dad was going. You know, he's working nights. At the time, he was you know, getting off work about four o'clock in the morning or so, he was driving up to De Ducks about an hour and a half drive from where we lived. He was getting there around six o'clock in the morning. He would sit in his vehicle, he would watch the pond and then you know, eventually as

it got lighter, he would get out. He'd go look for tracks and disturbances, you know, around the pond's edge, you know, stuff like that. And he was finding some things here and there, but you know, not not a whole lot of a whole lot of luck. And then you know, on the weekends he was getting up and he was going earlier because you know, my dad, one of the mistakes that he made, and yes, I'll say

it's a mistake. One of the mistakes he made is that he had it in his brain that they were coming before he got there, and that they were they were getting water and they were taking care of their needs, and then they were leaving, and that they had figured him out and they knew, you know, about what time he was going to come, and so he thought that he was missing them. It turns out that that, you know,

that was that was a mistake. Now what's really interesting in what kind of leads us to the footage is actually something that was completely by chance, and that was that the night before he got the footage, which was Wednesday, and that was August nineteenth, nineteen ninety two, before he went to work that evening, he got a phone call from my sister and I just want to say, you know, my sister passed away this June in a motorcycle accident. So you know, we're all going to miss her and

may she rest in peace. But she has an integral part in the story of my dad's footage. And anyway, he got a phone call from my sister and her car would not start and she had to get to work in the morning and give my nephew to daycare. And you know all that stuff, and you know, she said, Dad, can you come over and fix my car? And so my dad said, yeah, you know, of course, of course I will. And he went to work that night. He had no intentions of going to de duck Spring the

next day, none at all. He went to work, he got off work, he came home, he got a little sleep, he got up in the morning, he went and got his cup of coffee at the Flying Jay restaurant, which is where you know he always went, and he drove over to my sister's house and got her car running so she could go. And the best estimation of time I have, and it's it's kind of debatable. Some people say he got to d Duckt around nine am. I don't think that's true. I think he headed to de

Ducked around nine am. So I think he left my sister's house around nine am is kind of the way I interpret this. But anyway, he left my sister's house and he was going home, and then halfway home he just thought, well, what the hell, I'll drive up there and maybe there's some footprints, you know, or something I could find. And what ended up happening was he ended up getting to d ducked anywhere between three, two, four and a half hours later than when he was normally

showing up. And like I said, the mistake he made was he thought that they were coming before him and leaving, and that's not true. They were already there and were watching him, and when he was leaving, then they were going and they were getting their water. And I'm absolutely certain of this. And when he showed up late that day, he surprised them and he walked right up on one too or possibly too. Yeah, I mean, you know that

that's something we're looking into. And I have my own theories on that, and we'll get into that here in a minute. Well, you know, in my dad's own words, he thinks that when he drove up, when he when it heard the car, and when he drove up and parked, he thinks that he startled it. That it was probably at the pond getting water, because the tracks that are there look very, very fresh, and he makes a comment in the video that wow, these are you know, these

are fresh. So his description is that he thinks it was at the pond. It's Waldinen Pond, by the way. If anyone doesn't know that it's not actually De Duck Spring Walden Pond at the Dedux trailhead. Dedux Spring is this little tiny spring that runs out of the ground

that feeds the pond. But anyway, he pulls up in his car, he startles his animal and it takes off and it goes back up the trail and it goes to the right, and as he's looking at the prince and he gets his camera and he's filming these prints, and then he kind of hears it in the brush for whatever reason, and again we'll talk about this, but for whatever reason, it decides to cut back and go to the left and cross him and head for the

watershed boundary, which is that way. Not only the watershed boundary, but there's also you've been there recently, Cliff. It's what about twenty yards after it goes off camera in his footage, there's about a fifteen foot ravine that drops off into the spring. But yeah, so you know, a little luck, a little chance, a little you know, preparedness, because you know, he had the right spot, and he had the right time of year, and he had the right reason for

them being there. He knew they were coming. He was just missing them because of something and I think that he was probably underestimating, you know, their ability to to watch him and know him and know when he was leaving and then make their approach, you know, after the safety of him being gone, instead of taking the chance of you know, just coming out without seeing him.

and there's all these things. And he was reusing these eight millimeter magnetic tapes because we couldn't afford to buy new ones, and so sometimes we have different events that

are on the same tape. And one of the things that we have would Deduct is we have a casting of juvenile prints at Gifford Peak on the deduct master tape, and they happened to come before the deduct footage, And what has happened in the past is people have tried to make the connection that he was casting those juvenile prints and then he walks over to the pond and then he gets his footage, and people have tried to use this to say, yeah, look, I told you there's

a juvenile in that footage. Well, it's not true that he did that, because those are two completely separate events. The juvenile castings at Gifford Peak were done months before the Deduct footage. It just so happens to be on the same master tape because he was recording over other stuff. What he recorded over my nephew's second birthday party to get the Deduct footage. That's the other thing that was on the tape. You know, if that shows you how

important they're the Bigfoot stuff was. But you know, again for the last time, there were no juvenile prints that were cast at Deduct. Those are from different peak. Those two things are separate events. They are not connected. I wish people would stop showing them as a connection to try to prove a point.

look at you. It's a seeing now you're too close.

other every other copy has on there. And the baby the baby pick up, if that's indeed what it is, is before we see the sasquatch disappear, and you can actually see the top of the sasquatch as it's down or going down into the ravine, and that is later on in the film. I don't think it came back out to get the baby.

But regardless of that, regardless of whether you when I are right, we end up in the ravine at the end. And I think solely the reason that it even showed itself to him, it walks in front of him, it turns its head is because it's trying to distract him from something, and it's trying to hide something. And I think that what it's trying to hide. Is that baby

that's back there that it goes and gets. And I think if that baby wouldn't have been there, and it wouldn't have been so far away from it, he would have never got that video.

two there. I think that you're correct, and he overshot it and it came out in a different spot than he expected it to be, and so he thought that it was a second bigfoot, but I think it is the same one that walks in front of the camera, and I've referred to her as you know, big Jill

or whatever. But I think it's the same sasquatch. But when he sees that one for the second time, there's a description that's given in a newspaper that it turned to look at him and he could see what he thought was a deformity on the side of its head and neck, that stump stuck out like a lump, like it was deformed. I think that that's the baby on her back, and I think that what he's seen from one hundred feet away or however far was through the

trees right there. I think it's the baby's head that he's seen that looked looks like a hunchbacker, looks like

a deformality. The other account we have, like you said, is that you know, he hit out in the tree had fallen down and the roots had come up, and they you know, dug out like a little den and he hid down in there for up to two hours, I guess, is whatever the estimation is, because they had gotten somewhat aggressive and he had heard some vocalizations that they were making and he thought that maybe they were behind him, following him, and so he got a little

nervous and he ditched himself out in there. I think that up to two hours is probably not correct, you know, if this is what happened. I think that, you know, he didn't have a watch, he never wore one, There was no cell phones. His camera which wasn't even on, didn't even have like a timestamp on it. And I think that if you were under stress or shock or scared in that situation, you would have no concept of time. And also we know this as well because about the

time that he arrives home later. I don't think it can be two hours. I think that if this happened, and maybe it was maybe thirty.

them alone, you know. And whatever that voice was, or whatever you want to call it, you know, it's something that I've heard him talk about more than once. It is having that feeling during this whole episode. But we do have a little confusion on the time, you know, and we know, or at least I think, I know, that there weren't two of them. I think that you're right, and he overshot that and he thought there was two, and so he therefore thought the other one was behind

him when it wasn't. And I think he started to get a little scared at that point because you know, if you're dealing with the wild animal, that's one thing, but if you're dealing with two of them, then the odds of the unknown happening goes up, right, and especially with the young you know, if there's a young one involved, you know, then you're in real danger. So I think that, you know, it scared him a little bit. I think

that his timeframe was off. And I also think, and again nothing against my dad, you know, but he was a big, tough guy, he was one of those guys, macho, tough guy, and I have this feeling that it scared him a little bit and that embarrassing, and that's you know, maybe that like I hit out for two hours, you know, thaying was kind of a little overshot to cover up for that embarrassment, you know, And that's just me being honest and what I feel may have happened.

They're just kind of making fun of bigfooters, but the real damage in portion, you know, comes into a real slick, just hatchet job at it that they do on my dad when they asked him a question and he tries to answer it honestly, and you know, the question they ask is, you know, have you ever made fake footprints? And my dad's just being transparent and he's being honest,

and he says, yeah, I've made fake footprints. I've made them in my garden at home, and I'm you know, trying to you know, compare to them with what I'm finding, and you know, see if this is something that a man could do. And you know, in my father's defense, he was doing it for research purposes and scientific purposes, and he was trying to eliminate any possibility that somebody else was doing this, and they were they were fooling him,

you know. But what we get in the episode when it airs is you know, the skeptic saying, well, we know there's at least one person who's made fake footprints, and then it just cuts to my dad saying, yes I have, and then, you know, as his voice starts to rise because he's gonna expand on that answer, it just cuts off to him looking at a piece of bark that's got scratch marks in it, you know, and telling the guy, yeah, he's a real So they didn't

even include his full answer. All you get to see on there is him saying, yes, I've made fake footprints, and you know, honestly, it's a black cloud man that has been over his head for thirty some years and it never goes away, and everyone likes to throw it up. You know, Oh the footage is fake. He admitted it on TV. You know, no he didn't. You know that was Good Morning America or oh this is fake. You know,

he admitted it. He's a hoaxer. He admitted it. He never admitted to anything except trying to do some experiments to make him a better researcher. And he got stabbed in the back. And you know, it's man, I've been fighting this for a long time, but I wish people would realize that there's an agenda there and realized that there were people like me who were present for that. And Jonathan Summerland was there as well. He can tell you the same story like he was there when this

was recorded. You know, we're not the only ones, but the people that know no. But you know, I would like the air cleared on that at some point in time.

somebody is such a level of disrespect. It just drove me nuts watching that. And of course you've had to live with that, that dark cloud, as you said too. So it's a curse upon all the Blue mountains and.

or whatever. But you know, when he got some fame, you know, for that, and if you've never seen that, it's pretty stupid and comical, but it's you know, the most amount of money he ever made for anything he ever did Bigfoot related in its entire life, including the footage.

So you have, you know, a nationalized scream commercial and you get some attention, and then you you go on a show like this and you think that you're going to get more positive attention, and you know, they do something like that to you, and then you have to try to explain to everybody for the rest of your life, you know why this happened, and then the rest of your evidence, you know, gets thrown out and you know,

put in the garbage. But you know, one of the things that it kind of eats me as well is when people would imply, you know, that he admitted this or that he's a hoaxer. They're not only implying that about him, but then they're implying everybody in the blue Mountain evidence as either being in on it or being

too stupid to know any better. And now you're talking about West Summerland and you're talking about David Bean, and you're talking about Bill Lowry dark Addington, and you're talking about Grover Krantz, and we all know that Grover Krantz is the smartest guy in that room, you know. So

it's just, yeah, it's it's one of those things. I've lived with it for you know, forty years, so you know, I'll continue to live with it, or you know, hopefully one of these days people will actually take the time to look at the evidence and not listen to the rumors.

all of them. And so it's you know, and I was, you know, and James, when you and I spoke some years ago, I was sort of active in the Bigfoot community a little bit, and when I stepped back away from it because of this stuff and because I just wasn't ready to handle it. And I've kind of thrown myself back into it with doing a book and whatnot,

and I've done it to myself. But you know, this time, I have good people around me, and I've got Cliff and Doug Hycheck and you know, some of these people, and they're helping me deal with this a little bit better. But it is incredibly frustrating and not only frustrating on the level of research, but it's my father. Like it's not someone that I know or I look up to, like it's my family member. Like it's a man that raised me and I know what kind of person he is.

And then you hear just constant criticism and it'll beat you down and it's hard to deal with.

And maybe I got to hold a cast, you know if I asked, right, you know, that type of thing before I got to go out with him, because you know, I wasn't allowed to go until I was ten years old. That's the first time I ever got to go look at any tracks or anything like that. I was deemed

too young, you know before that. And then when I was fourteen years old, which was nineteen ninety one, I got to mix plaster and por cast for the first time, which happened to be nineteen ninety one mil Creek Road, and I'm pretty sure we don't have that cast because it's probably terrible. But you know, yeah, you would think that you would notice, right, You would think that something this complex, that would require this much work to do,

that someone would notice him. But none of the people he worked with, not Wes or Dave or Bill or Darr or Greg may or Krantz or any of those people, ever had anything bad to say about him. It's always the outsiders, you know, that have something bad to say about him, or it's always the people that have something that they're losing, like he's finding all this evidence and I'm not, or he's getting this TV show and I didn't like. Those are the people that always have something

to say about him. It's not the people that worked closely with him for almost twenty years. They all loved him. Nobody had anything ever bad to say about him.

also went out and did investigations with your father. What sort of role did he have and did he did he stick with it or did he walk away from it? And why?

And my brother, you know, he told me, I believe one time, on one occasion, he actually found tracks when he was by himself and he was just goofing around like out in the mountains, you know, hanging out, and it scared him because my dad wasn't there, and he tied tailed out of there and like went to go get my dad, you know, because he wasn't sure what

to do. But he played a big role, you know, in the earlier years of my dad's research, and he got those pictures in eighty eight, you know, and and there was kind of a rift there, and you know, they're copyrighted to my dad, and my brother never got credit for him.

had just stay where you were. The bigfoot was headed directly towards my dad, and when my brother got up to run, he spooked it and it changed the direction that it was going. And it always was one of those, you know things that my my dad always said, you know, damn if you just state.

an audio recording of my dad talking about this. Actually, my brother came to my dad and he said, you know, Dad, I just don't want to do it anymore. And if you need me, I'll still go out with you, but I'm just tired of it. I just don't want to do it. And if you listen to the audio recording, man, you can just like you can almost like feel the hurt of my dad's voice when he's like talking about it, you know, like it just kind of hurt him a little bit. But man, my brother, he's a private person.

not my brother in a suit. Now I can tell you that.

least five. It just never would take and he linked around and you know, by the time he got the footage in ninety two. He wasn't walking real good, you know, and he was forty nine years old and he was getting up there, and you know, his health was in decline at that at that point in time, but as you know, he could still move because you were there at deducted and he was moving quickly when he was

getting that stuff. But you know what ended up happening is, yeah, the diabetes got worse, and his mobility got worse, and he had a cane and he started to decline. And the worst thing that my dad ever did ever in his entire life was let a doctor talk him into amputating that foot. It was like a horrible mistake. They told him the pain would be gone, you'll get a prosthetic. Everything's going to be easier, you know, And that just wasn't the case because his weight made it hard to

walk in a prosthetic. And then he gained more weight because he got depressed and he wasn't mobile, and then he couldn't go to the mountains anymore, and he couldn't walk around, and he couldn't hunt except for sitting in his truck on the side of the road. And if he didn't get something he'd have somebody else come pack it out for him. He couldn't even do that anymore, and he started spending more time in a wheelchair because

he was having problems walking. And you know, by the time he died, like we were barely even fishing anymore because we couldn't even get down to the water. And it's you know, yeah, his decline is rough man. But you know, there's a whole section in the book. And to be honest with you, when I when I wrote it, I wrote it about two o'clock in the I was trying to sleep and my kids were asleep, and it just hit me and I got up and I got out of bed and I sat down for the computer

and I wrote a whole section of the book. It's going to be the end of the book. And I cried the whole time I wrote it, the whole time I typed, and I can't even read it without get a tear in my eye. So hopefully it has some kind of effect on someone that reads it. You know, that's because it's not just Bigfoot. I mean where you know, he's a man, and I want people to realize that there's a story of a man there.

a lot of really interesting technology buried into it. So tell us about the book as much as you can, please, well, be out.

know of dormal riches. What we're looking at is this is going to be a full size coffee table style book, hardback, with full size, glossy colored pictures, and we're going to have over one hundred, well over one hundred pictures from my father's personal photo albums and evidence logs, a lot of pictures that no one's ever seen of prints and casts and hair samples and pictures of you know, Bigfoot and my family and my dad and stuff like that.

And we're also going to have over an hour of audio recordings from my dad's personal audio journal that he did in private that no one's ever heard outside of well pretty much me, to be honest, and uh, you know, the publisher and anyone that I've chosen to share anything with this and they're going to be in there, and it's going to be the him telling his own story,

kind of in his own words. And we're also going to have new enhancements of the d DUP film that a lot of people haven't seen, you know, or at least hadn't seen until last month, when you know, I kind of showed it at a special event. And uh, we're also going to have some other footage that no

one's ever seen go in this book. And kind of the cool thing the technology is that the audio and the video are going to be scannable QR codes, and so if you're not familiar with that what's going to happen is you'll be reading the book and you'll, you know, let's say you're reading something I wrote and you get to the section on you know, the d DUX spring footage.

There's going to be a QR code there and you just open up the camera on your phone and you hold your phone over it, and it's just gonna pull the footage up on your phone for you to watch, or it's just gonna pull up an audio clip of my dad talking, so you don't have to load a CD and anything anymore to look at pictures or watch video. We're here audio. It's all gonna be writing the pages of the book. And I have some tremendous people helping me out with this, and I've got you Cliff, of course,

you were kind enough to help me. And doctor Jeff Meldrum as well has written a chapter, Thomas Powell, Jonathan Summerlin, Dar Addington who wrote a chapter. Doug Hichek wrote a chapter, and I've written a couple you know, chapters as well. And we're gonna have some fantastic footage, and we're gonna

have some fantastic footage of this baby lift. And we're gonna have pictures you've never seen, an audio you've never heard, and it may not be the most you know, you know, I'm not shooting for the best big Foot book of all time, but I'm certainly shooting for the most dynamic book on the subject that anyone's ever seen.

telling his story on tape. And it's unfortunate because I have about six or seven hours of audio and I kin use about an out of it because, as you understand, we have restrictions on how big things can be, you know, when you're putting the book together and whatnot. But you know, my dad died. He never got to he never got

to write a book. And so even though this is light years beyond I'm sure his you know, biggest possible dreams, this is my dad's book, and I'm just the one that's typing it out, you know, but it belongs to him.

And hopefully we can help set the record straight on some of these mysteries and some of these rumors, and hopefully this can convince some people to really take a deep dive look at this ether and some of this phenomenal evidence that we have that doesn't prove that Bigfoot exists, because there's no proof of Bigfoot, but it certainly supports

the theory of the existence of Bigfoot. And we got some of you know, my dad has some of the best evidence that's ever been found, and I just want to get it out there and show people.

But what I want to do is I want to challenge people to take a look at the evidence and draw their own conclusion from that instead of listening to something that is some bitter old man said thirty years ago.

Sasquatch foot in particular. And I brought other examples from other locations and times, and I compared them to those the Freeman data set and showed how the data the evidence is congruent. What what Paul's evidence first pointed us to is still being found in other places in times throughout North America. And I can't wait to hear what Jeff doctor Meldrim is written in there. And I know Michael's gonna have a lot of great insight. They even

got legends like dar Addington. Dar's never done anything in the public and Bigfoot, but she is a legitimate legend. She was there with Paul, with David Bean, with all these people, seeing these tracks in the ground, pulling tracks for herself out of like really famous trackways, and she's never got the credit for it. She is just an angel of a human being. I love her so much. I just cannot wait to read get my hands on this book.

some of that. I'll share some of that outside of our NABC membership, because our NABC memberships they've already seen these videos and got a little taste of what we're doing, and there's a lot more I haven't shared with them yet either, by the way, but I'll share a little bit with a Bigfoot and Beyond folks in the Patreon section as well. So that's a little gift for our

members if you want to become a member. Speaking of which, if you do want to become a member and get extra content every single week, thirty forty five minutes or more of content every single week from us, it sounds like a gift from God. You can join our membership or a gift from dog. Maybe I'm a little this dyslexic, So yeah, you can actually join. Our membership is five bucks a month. It's a Patreon thing. Go to our website and follow the links over there Bigfoot and Beyond

podcast dot com. If you go there, you can do lots of stuff. You can you can join as a member. You can also leave questions or comments. You can leave voicemails for us. You can do all sorts of things. You can dance and wear a funny hat too if you want. That's what I do with the website. But anyway, go there and check it out. And then and you know, keep following us, keep enjoying our podcast, give us suggestions. What do you want to hear? And thank you very

much all for listening. Bobs your turn.