CLASSICS (Bonus Episode): Dennis Pfohl!

Big Food and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. These guys, are you fav It's so like Shay subscribe and rade it five star and me greatest on Quesh today listening a watchie him always keep it's watching. And now your hosts Cliff Berrickman and James Bubo Fay. Hey, what's going on Cliff? Nothing much man, Just excited for tonight's interview. Yep, we got a good one

tonight. We got the legendary Dennis full out of Colorado. Yeah. Yeah, We've been trying to rope Dennis into this for a long time and we finally managed to schedule him in. And for anybody who doesn't know who Dennis is, Dennis is a longtime bigfooter. He has had some first hand experience with a lot of rather famous situationations over the years, not the least of which, of course, is the Ericson Project. But he's a great bigfooter

unto himself as well. He's been doing this for a long time. I venture to say decades, But I mean, why listen to me, man. We got when we got Dennis on the phone, let's go straight to him. Dennis, how are you doing this evening? I'm doing good cliffs in Bobo. Thanks for having me, love it. Thanks so much for coming on, man, I really really appreciate it. Yeah, thank you so Dennis. For people who don't know who you are, why don't you

give us a little background on yourself. How long you've been doing this bigfoot thing, maybe what got you into it, and then we'll jump into the meat of the conversation. Well, I don't want to bore anyone too much. Is you know, like like many of us out there that get you know, got into big footing, is we kind of uh, we kind

of got pushed into it involuntarily. We uh, you know, we're we were big campers and outdoors people here in Colorado and you know, raise my kids, doing a lot of apping and stuff here in the mountains, and just had several experiences over a couple of years back around the year two thousand, ninety nine, two thousand of camping up in the high country here in Colorado, and these experiences, you know, like I said, I'd done

a lot of outdoor stuff and these things were just troubling to me because the experiences were unusual, you know, just unexplainable, at least in my mind, and I didn't really think bigfoot. I just thought maybe people or bears that were acting strange around her camps at night in the dark, you know, that kind of stuff. But I just couldn't. I just couldn't, you know, come to grips with what had happened in those particular areas. You know, we did a lot of fishing and hiking in all that good

stuff outdoors. And then when bigfoot became part of the equation back then and suddenly this was a reality, it changes your whole your whole way of life, right, it changes the whole paradigm everything you've ever believed in thought. And then in some ways it's kind of like, all right, I get to go outdoors and not only finish or hike or hunt, but now I get to, you know, do this big footing thing, and that that is just a whole, like I said, a whole new dimension that adds

to I think, the incredible excitement of life of living. You know, everyone's got stories, but you're one of the few peple that's actually got real legitimate sasquatch footage. That was, Yeah, the time I spent with the Erickson project, you know, that was five years from two thousand and five to roughly twenty ten, when when they kind of you know, holed out

of that whole situation. It was kind of it didn't come to an end that I would have hoped to have seen, you know, but it was time, and I'm glad that it's behind me now, I really am. I mean, I've had some experiences with that guys that I just wish, you know, words can't convey. I couldn't try to convince anybody what happened there. You know, what we experienced, what we've seen told me for sure that these things are absolutely real and they're incredible. But you'd have to

been there, I guess, is all I can say. I wish that it would have gone different in several ways, and that's you know, the main one was if we could have had better cooperation from the people we were working with, if you know, we could have been able to do things the way we wanted to do there. Now I'm going to say that, you know that it could have turned out better, but I don't really know

that. You know, this is a subject that it's just so hard and difficult to try to get evidence, a good evidence, you know, evidence that stands on its own that you know, you don't have to uh, you know, you don't have to explain that. How's that call, Cliff? It stands on its own. Not subjective, you're talking about objective evidence.

You're talking not subjective where you need somebody the core objective evidence that stands on its own, you can you can analyze the evidence without without necessarily knowing the context, although sometimes the context helps, like the Patterson Gimlin film or a footprint for example. Before we start, you know, meta talking about this whole situation, you said something really important that it's earlier. It's basically like, you know, unless you were there, you just can't know.

Basically you didn't. Those weren't the words, but that was the gist. But you were there. You were one of the people who actually lived at the property often on through the years. You and Leela, I know you personally, I consider you a friend and a fellow researcher, et cetera.

But you know, to get the story of the ericson project offline, well, that's like a full time endeavor that would probably take weeks because it's been buried under so much nonsense, hogwash, myth legend and stretching of the truth. But you're a witness, you're involved in that, you were involved in at the time, you were on the site. Can you kind of just give us the gist of how it began and some of the highlights and how the thing ended at the very end of the project, you know, the

whole thing started. And I know you guys were going to be a faro at the time. And do you guys remember when that report came in. That was in June of two thousand and five. It came in as actually the initial report came in from the neighbor next door who lived next door to these people, and it was it was the it was the son in law, I want to say, it was the son in law of the neighbors who had come over to hang out with with his girlfriend or something and something.

There was a big commotion next door and the sheriff showed up and some other stuff happened. And these people, they lived fairly close to each other, but their property lines dropped way back in the back down Kentucky. If you've been to that part of Kentucky, it's a lot of the homes are built on what they call above the hollows on these little rural roads, and

it's it's pretty well back country out there, right. The hollows behind these homes are very thickly wooded, very heavily wooded, and in fact, I was told on a number of occasions, even the people that lived there and outdoors guys, the enthusiasts don't go into the hollows that much. It's just that it's overgrown. It's like a jungle, and it really is. I mean it's a it's an eastern jungle. I mean it's you know, thickets and thick woods and underbruke rush and some of it's not very easy to get

through. But they wouldn't go down to these hollows. Well, this this house where they were sitting, dropped off behind the house right into a deep hollow like that, and the neighbors were next door, they lived, you know, I want to say, sixty seventy yards from them was this other house and their home dropped off two back behind this hollow. Well, they've been there for a while, and up to that point, I think they dismissed a lot of the strange stuff is you know, just you know,

people will just ignore some of the stuff that happens around there. They just kind of go into the house at night and not pay attention. Well, this couple had moved in and the woman that was involved, she had grown up on that house, and according to her, her mother was feeding wild animals behind their house at night. Now this is a very rural and poor part of Kentucky, so these people were not very well off, and you

know, just one of those poorer areas. And she would tell her as a young girl, when she was four or five, she said she could remember her mom to, you know, take the dinner scraps out behind the house and put them out to the tree line and feed the wild animals. But she would follow her mom out there, and her mom would put this stuff out and go back towards the house. And they said they'd hear sounds or weird things back there, that they wouldn't pay too much attention. It

was too dark, you know. And one night she said she was looking out the back window of her house, and at that time, they had an outhouse right at the tree line, you know, back behind the house, and you know, it's about fifty sixty yards from the back of the house. And she said that she saw this man look like a man that

was an upright figure standing next to this outhouse. It was in the dark, but she could see the silhouette and she said that the thing that troubled her was this man head was as high as the roof of the out house, which had to be, you know, seventy eight nine foot tall. And she asked her mom about it. Her mom said, well, that's just your cousin, you know. She give her some excuse it, you know. Her mom animated. She knew what it was, but she really

didn't want to scare her tell her. But later on she found out that, you know this, these things were coming up and taking these dinner scraps, and as she got older, she felt it. She felt compelled to continue to put food out. As her mom moved out and her family moved out, she inherited this house, but she felt compelled to still take food and put food in the back for these things because for some reason, she think she thought she had to feed them. But I'm getting way ahead of

myself, guys. Sorry, let me get back to how that started. The neighbors saw this commotion and the sheriff it showed up, and all this stuff had happened, and he had submitted the report to the BUFRORO and said, basically in his report, hey, we saw some weird stuff in our neighbor's house. They're not saying what it was, but my dad said he saw this thing that looked like a bigfoot and it scared the hell out of them, and I wanted you guys to know. That was basically the short

of the report. And then one of our local investigators, I think his name was Greg Clay, had gone out there to look at it, just talk to the people. And then Stan Courtney also he was I think he was several hours away. He decided to go out there and meet with them.

And when they started spending time there on the property, which didn't take long, I guess they actually witnessed one of these things off the side of the road, big red glowing eyes out eight foot tall, you know, back in the trees, and they came away from that location and shot. Because these guys were like, well, we really didn't expect, you know,

any of this to happen. We just thought we were going to go talk to some people and boom, all of a sudden, we find ourselves in this really active situation, and then they got Matt involved, and Matt went out there and as you guys know, he took some recording equipment. But the husband of the woman who lived there had known by then two and

he took the camcorder down and eventually got some footage. We didn't all get to see it for a while, but there was one walking down in the trees, down in the very thickly wooded area down below this pond, and we get about two or three seconds of this thing just kind of walking from the right to the left, and we can see it from the side view.

A lot of that footage and stuff that we collected from that location was taken by her, by the woman who had this ongoing relationship with these things, and the husband of her also got a couple pieces, you know. But we collected some pieces of footage, like a piece of a couple pieces

of thermal imaging footage. This was early on. We were using some antiquated old rathe on two fifty d's and had issues trying to feed you know, recording units and getting good dependable feeds from the units to the recorders and older technology when it comes to game cameras. Yeah, we did have game cameras out. We had you know, thermal imaging units again older stuff, but you know, this is back when that technology was very expensive still and not

very reliable. And you know, some of the stuff we got was just very short, you know, pieces that you couldn't really make much detail out or get much information from unfortunately. But she was able to collect a few pieces of footage that I think some people have seen, like the sleeping footage and one that they call them Matilda, the facial footage where it's sitting down

in the trees. And but you know, for me, the entirety this this project, I always was trying to always trying to gather more substantial evidence again stand something that stands on its own, not subjective, but something that stands on its own, you know, longer, lengthy pieces of footage, more details and and anything that happened around there. I tried to encourage them

to constantly carry cameras and film, and that was difficult. It was hard for us to get cooperation from them to do the things we wanted them to do. They were very adamant about a lot of things, you know, privacy and and uh doing things the way they wanted to do it, so we had a lot of a lot of issues and and resistance in many ways. But again, you know, we did get stuff. It's just I

wish it was better. I wish that we could have accomplished more. But you know, I look back at what we did do and you know it is something. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after these messages. Historically, I think you got the very very first thermal footage of a sasquatch. Ever am I Am I right about that? Or we we think we did. Yeah, we believe we did. And you know what was interesting? Cliff touching on the subject,

and I feel like I'm going all over the place. I don't talk about this too often, so forgive me. I'm not very polished when it comes to speaking about it. But you're a good company. Story about that? Oh right, Well, this thermal footage that we have, Gene, we well, I just don't want to take a lot of time, but basically we had we could not stand in the fields and hold cameras up and expect to get anything. Luckily, we were surrounded by a lot of thick Kentucky

woods, and these things would come from different directions and angles. So during our time when we were there trying to collect more video evidence, we would go out in the fields in the evening and at night, sometimes during the day, but mostly at night, of course, and we would try to collect footage. And most of the time we didn't get anything. Guys.

I mean it was I spent countless hours, I mean hundreds, if not several thousand hours sitting out in tree stands and you know, out in the dark in the fields and the rain and the snow and the wind, you know, and most of the time I didn't see her get anything. But the few occasions that we did, you know, was just so exciting when you knew that they were out there, they were you know, real close.

And in this one particular occasion, and now Leila was working with us then on their property and they had an old barn in the back, and we had devised a plan to take some thermals or rape on two fifty ds out to this old barn and hide in the barn well before dark and you know, sneak in there and then try to hide and then stay back in there and hope that these things would come out. We'd ask the woman to

bring some food out or whatever. She does come out and talk to them, and she can coax them out of the woods, so maybe we can get a you know, a video or a shot of them. Well, this particular night, I think she had gone out and she had done some talking and stuff for a while, and then she went back to the house, as she was apt to do quite a bit. She would go back in the home and let us do our thing outside till midnight one two o'clock in the morning. And we sat out there for hours in the back of

the barn. And what we had done, guys, is we'd cut these little holes in the back of the barn. They let us cut these little holes in this old wood of the barn, right and and we had it just large enough the lens of this thermal camera would fit into it, so we could view out the back of the barn towards the tree lines in the hollow where we you know, we knew that they were coming out by this

old pond and stuff, but where we knew they were coming out. And again, I was sitting there one night, and I'm trying to recall exactly what happened. But I've been there for quite a while and hadn't seen anything. And with this thermal imaging, you know, you could see a mouse

running around out there, you know, one hundred yards away. You can see a little pinpoint dot, you know, running around with the thermal You guys don't how the thermals work, not anything that you know, every everything warm blooded, it's going to show up and you know, look like a spotlight out there in the dark with the thermal imager because of the you know, the way they work. Everyone that knows how a thermal imager works understands.

You know that it's the heat that creates the image, you know, the radiation of the body heat. And so I'm watching this thing and nothing has been going on, and I'm literally falling asleep and getting ready to just call it quitch. That night, I remember seeing this little faint glimmer or faint, faint little shine down near the tree line, and this thing is dropping. The land drops down significantly right when it goes in the tree line.

So this thing's walking up this like incline through this very thick trees and brush, and I see it kind of come up and it's back in behind all the trees, so I can't get a pool image and don't know exactly what it is, but I can see it's fairly large. And then as it got close to the edge of the trees, I realized it was one of them. And I don't know which one, but it was it was. It was upright, it was bipedal, and it just was standing behind

all the thick foliage. Guys, it's it's pitch black, it's dark outside. There's not even a move right, and I'm in This thing is about one hundred yards away down in the trees, and I'm in the back of

the barn. I thought I was pretty well hidden, and I hear a rock hit the back of the barn, right, So that had happened several times, so apparently they knew we were in the barn, but they would they would literally throw rocks at the barn, and we would think we're pulling something over, you know, pulling the wool over their eyes lowly, and they knew that we were there. I don't think we ever really surprised him, but you know, we heard a rock hit the barn several times,

and whatever this thing was back there in the trees. And so here's the interesting thing. It was behavior is what really fascinated me, because when I reviewed that footage later, this went on for about three I want to say, three and a half four minutes. It was back behind these this very thick foliage, and it wouldn't come out of the foliage and stood behind this

foliage and it kind of was looking towards us, towards the barn. And then eventually it turned and it leaves and it walks back down at an angle, kind of in the same direction it came from, and disappears back into the thick foliage. Well, what's fascinating again, was the way it behaved pitch Black. We're hiding in the barn. We think that it doesn't know where there, but I think it did. It never came out of the trees, but it's behavior back and behind that it was swaying. You could

see it. Once it kind of locked in on the barn, it started rocking a little to the left and to the right. And I know we've heard of other people describing him doing that, you know, kind of doing that rocking motion. You know, you guys have heard people describe that behavior from time to time right. Oh yeah, yeah, it was doing that.

But I couldn't tell if it was just that it was trying to look around the foliage towards the barn or not, because you could see it lean out a little further and then go back in and kind of go to the left and then back to the right, swinging a little further out to the right. Odds the second or two and look and then go back behind.

And it did that, and it never stopped really moving. It just kind of, you know, kind of rock and swayed subtly and sometimes a little bit more aggressively, but it just sat back there the entirety of this time, kind of looking towards that direction, and then suddenly, without warning, it just turns and it's gone. It's just walking down the hill and leaving again back into the trees. So here's the behavior that really, you know, I guess I should have known this, but it was fascinating in that

it's pitch black. We can't see nothing with their eyes as with human eyes. Right without this camera, I had never known that it was there. But it still acted so cautiously and so carefully that it wouldn't even come out behind thick foliage in this pitch black, thinking that we might have been around there was It was fascinating to me because that tells you that we really,

you know, we just don't understand these creatures. They're they're just they're just incredibly stealthy and very very careful on you know, trying to show themselves or or you know, allowing us to see them. But it was fascinating. That was just a little behavioral thing that I just found extremely fascinating. You know, how did it know that I couldn't see in the dark? You

know, how do they know that? They must know that, right, but at the same time, they're still so cautious and careful not to come out from behind that bush. If it had come out from behind that bush, I still wouldn't have been able to see it. It was too too dark, you know, without the aid of that that thermal cam. So

anyways, I just found that fascinating. Yeah, and I've often thought about that because now we have several pieces of footages of these things and they're always hiden even in the dark, and like a long time ago, I kind of thought to myself that back when we didn't have a lot of footage, I might have even spoken to you about this one point, Dennis, that I definitely they're hiding from us in the dark, and the reason for that

is probably something like I always think about, you know, my own experience, and you know, sasquatches are smart, don't get me wrong, but they're not you know, doing math or you know, using fire and stuff like that. They're not. They're not doing that kind of stuff with their

intelligence. They're applying at else how, you know. So when I think back to my experience and I remember once and tying this back into what we're talking about here, when I was young, like maybe about I don't know, ten nine seven somewhere in there, and I learned that dogs seeing black and white, you know, instead of color. You know, they don't have color vision like we have. I couldn't wrap my head around that. It's just what it was outside of my own experience, and therefore I had

hard time conceptualizing that. Like I didn't even know how you would know, because I didn't know about rods and cones and those sort of you know, eye cells at that time. But I couldn't really wrap my head around it. I kind of think that that's where they're coming from is that like, well, yeah, they can see in the dark just fine. And here are here, we are running around kind of like them. They must look at us and realize and just like we look at them and say, wow,

that's a lot like me. That's weird. And so I think that they kind of give us credit. Where does not do that? They think we have night vision just like they do. Therefore they just treat us like them. Yeah, yeah, that's that's true. I could definitely see that. I mean, it's I almost thought it was just very odd that they would that, even with all the advantage they have, you know, with their stealthiness and how they can move through that thick stuff. They move through

that stuff like a mouse. Okay, so here you got this large bipedal creature and at things moving through this thick, dense foliage and it's hardly making any sound at all. I mean, this is some other experiences we've had in the past. So that combined with its behavior that night, you know, I couldn't I probably would never have heard it approach. I definitely couldn't

see it in the dark. Yet it was so extremely cautious about even you know, showing itself or making itself vulnerable by you know, coming out into the open the way just I don't know, I mean, I know we all knew that they're that way to some extent, but to actually see that behavior was fascinating for me. So yeah, yeah, we all have we all have models what we think sasquatches are. But when you're like, I had that experience recently and that one wasn't around me, but I got the

track one for a little while. I pulled some casts and stuff like that. Just is about a month and a half two months ago, and the stuff the thing was going through just but like the fact that let alone, I mean, the witness was there, he heard it moving around and stuff through there. You know, but when I saw where this thing walked and I listened to the witness who heard it go, and uh, and the speed with which it went through this stuff relatively quietly, like you were saying,

and this one, this wasn't trying to sneak around. It's phenomenal to see where these things choose to walk and the stealth and quietness with which they walk there. It's staggering. It's it's actually kind of scary in some ways. Yeah, you you you begin to really see how they live, the way they do, how they get, how that we we know so a little about them because as you said earlier, Cliff, I think we're trying to relate our own experiences, in our own our own abilities to these because

they're upright, they're bipeal. We think that they're you going to have a lot of the same mannerisms and abilities we do, but they go so far above and beyond even even our best sensibilities, you know, our our ability to hear and see and even as you said, just leaving sign behind if they don't want to leave sign. They're just masters at you know, evasion

and stealth and it's just extraordinary. So that's why, you know, you start to think when you find a print, which we did find a few, Now we didn't find that many, but you know, one of the ones that really struck or you know, stood out to me was an experience

that we had towards the end of the project where it was January. We had a fresh snowfall a couple of three inches, and the woman had gone out and put food out at the edge of this tree line near there was a lot of tobacco fills out there, so you have these big, wide open areas. I want to describe that, so you kind of have in your minds I understand what I'm talking about. But you got these large open areas, open fields, and then like like I said, a lot of

them are they're growing tobacco and stuff on. So uh, in the winter, these things are just pretty well barren, right, and then it's surrounded by all these thick, heavy tree lines and all four sides. And she would walk out to the edge of one of these and then go right at the into the tree line and talk or does what. You know, she had some things she would do to see if they're around. They weren't always

around, guys, they were not like always there. They would come and they would go, and you know, a couple three or four days, she wouldn't hear anything from them. Sometimes two weeks she wouldn't hear anything from them. And then suddenly they would just be there and she would know they're around because she'd go outside to feed the dogs or do something outside and she'd hear a snap from the trees, a deliberate crack from a branch or you

know, a sound. These things made a very distinctive sound. Out there that it is like a grunting sound. I've recorded it several times. I can produce it very well because I've heard it so many times. But it's basically just a very guttural like that, just sound, just like that. You would just hear it come from the trees, and so she would know they're around. So then she would go out later and take you know,

her pancakes or or you know, whatever food that she had. Sometimes she'd just give them leftovers from dinner, but she would put them out there and hope they would take it. Now, she would put food down, guys. But then again, even if we felt felt they were there, they wouldn't always take it. It wasn't one of those things that, oh yeah, you could put food down, just stand there and wait from the ticket and you've got something right. They were always ahead of us by I don't

know, ten steps. And when we thought we could trick them and full them and see them and do we tried every angle we could think of. They were just so unpredictable. They wouldn't come into the same spot all the time. They would approach areas from different directions all the time, never from the same direction twice never at the same times, they didn't take the food

she'd put out. Half the time, I'm gonna tell you that right now, you know, sixty seventy percent of the time she probably the food would get eaten by a cat or you know, a stray dog or raccoons. And we know that, you know, but you know there was a few times that they did stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. We'll be right back after these messages. But it is particular night she had put food out and it had just known and I was there, and

she said that she thought she'd heard one of them. So we had went back to the house, and we were at the house for a good forty five minutes to an hour, and I went back out with her husband to the to the area that she had put the food in the edge of this field. And Cliff and Bobo, I know both you guys have found tracks in all your time doing this, but here's what I came across, guys.

I came across the trackway that came out of the tree line and it went a big arc and a big semi circle in arc maybe one hundred and fifty to one hundred and seventy flip prints in total. They came out of the tree, went in an arc, and then went back towards where she put the plate and went back into the trees again. And it was only minutes old in the snow, and I was elated. I was like, I cannot believe what we just found. And I was so excited. And I told them both, I said, I need to get out there.

I called Leli. I said, bring your your snow casting material, because we had stuff there for that. We hadn't really got to use it at the time, but we had, uh we had spray wax, the forensic

spray wax, you know, for sitting snow prints. And uh we went back out there with with that and some hydro cowl and I started to cast three of the track, to cast the left and a right and a left and I was expecting to walk that that whole you know, track line, and try to find some better princes because the snow it was pretty coold. It's fourteen degrees I believe at the time, so the snow was fresh and it was a little powdery. It was difficult, you know, to get

a good impression. But they were still, you know, the tracks still maintained pretty well. The shape of the track, you know, stayed in there pretty well. So we sprayed several layers of the wax in there and got it set up, and eventually I cast it, and two of the three kind of blew out one side or the other, but still got most of it, and one of them turned out really, really pretty good,

and that's one I need to send you, still, Cliff. But it was a seventeen and a half inch footprint, showed all the toes and it even had the impression of one of the oak leafs on the on the field was still at the bottom of that that trapper and pressed down into it. And what happened is I was planning to stay out there that whole night and cast a bunch of tracks, and they flipped out, and they didn't like me doing it because she felt like because I was out there casting tracks that

I was going to scare them away and they would freak out. And long story short, as it turned into a huge blow up in a fight with the people because I was trying to press them to allow me to cast and document all these tracks and they just didn't want me messing around with the tracks, but I was able to get three of them out of there, and again to this day, it was one of those most disappointed. It was bittersweet because I had this whole trackway and I could have photographed it, but

it was the middle of the night. I did take some video of it, but it's not very good quality because it's night and that you know that the cameras are, you know your video quality, the grades in the dark and when you're using a little spotlight. It just just one of those bittersweet moments where I just had to walk away from it because it was very difficult to do many of the things that we felt like we needed to do. Leela ran into that quite a bit with them, and I know, I

think you've talked to Leila several times, right, Bobo. I was in contact with that whole time. I almost got to go out there and be a roommate Adrian. When they first was going out there, I talked to him a couple of times on the phone about because I was wide up and like, man, I'm just gonna worry on a fishy, but I can jump off. At the time, I was like, because Lela didn't want to trespass. She didn't want to go down to those hallers by herself.

She was trying to she's lobby. I'm like, dude, I will do whatever it takes. I will cross property lines, I'll climb down them hallers, I'll track them back to where they're sleeping. And agent almost did it, and then he decided not to at the last minute. For our listeners who may not know, we haven't really told them who Leelah is, and I think a lot of people are probably hearing these stories for the first time. Leila she she's a Princeton graduate. She has a PhD. Is it

a wildlife biology or something like that. She I think she's still living back easton Pennsylvania or something at this point. But yeah, she They had a bona fide, legitimate, hardcore PhD living on the property for years documenting whatever came up, and I imagine some of that is some of the most thorough, most scientific documentation that's ever been obtained. She lived on the on the

location for nearly five years of that project. Unfortunately, there was some ah reconcilable differences between her and the couple that made it very difficult for her. You know, eventually too to do her research properly. So she kind of spent the last few years there just you know, analyzing any evidence we got and processing stuff. Particularly at the end, she was very helpful with the DNA when we were able to obtain we got some hair samples from there,

guys. You know, we got you know, the unknown primate hair samples. We got a number of saliva samples off the plates that we sent in for testing. DNA testing. A lot of it started out through the DNA I think was Paleo Labs Paleo DNA out of Thunderbey, Ontario. We were sending them up there for a few years and uh, one of the one of the scientists as working with up there, one of the analysts up there,

I guess would be his title. He uh he basically told me, he says, you know what, what these samples keep coming back as is uh human contamination. And we knew at that point, you know, Leland knew how to handle the materials we were working with, and I did too.

We we knew what we were doing there. We weren't you know, we were very careful about contaminating, uh, you know, the the plates that we were presenting to these things with the food on it, so we were what we were trying to do is get the saliva samples from the place

that she would put out. This woman would put out and we would we would methodically handle them to minimize human contact, rubber gloves, try not to know, you know, get any you know, put a place underneath you so you don't get cells falling onto it or any other way to contaminate these

samples. So when we got these plates back and we felt that they were you know, the food was taken by the sasquatch there, that we could take that sample and send it into these labs and see, if you know, we can have a DNA analysis done on them and see what they come back as. Wouldn't they eat them with when they had syrup on they eat the whole paper plate? Right, No, No, they didn't eat the plate. What they do, Bobo is they would lick the plate clean.

So she would put she would put syrup on those plates with pancakes. But it wasn't all with pancakes. She would put other food on there. Sometimes it would be dinner scraps with bravy. But they would literally lick the plates clean, and you know, leaving saliva, which we felt like they had

to lift saliva on those plates because they literally licked clean. And it's at one point she was placing peanut butter on bread, on sliced bread, white bread, put peanut butter on there, and then put you know, or syrup on it, and that peanut butter when it puts, when it sticks to the plate, it's like glue, you know how peanut butter is. It would stick like glue to the plate. And they would literally let that peanut butter clean off the plate when they did take it, when it wasn't

some other animal. When they took it, we knew we were very confident. We weren't one hundred percent sure, but we're confident that they actually took the food off that plate. Take that plate and Lelo would process it and we would we would send it up to this DNA diagnostic or not DNA diagnostic, Paleo DNA Labs in Thunderby, Ontario, And we worked with this guy for several years and we had sent him I don't know, ten fifteen samples and eventually the guy he told me on the phone, he says, you

know a Dennis. He says, I think what's happening here is we would do now what's it called. It's been a number of years. I forgot what's it called. When they do the uh, the initialing on a on a sample to determine if it's a cat or a dog, or a human or a bear. Is a preliminary, yeah, just to determine species, right, just to roll in or roll out other things. They would do a base base pair or something like that worked up and I'm sorry, guys,

I can't remember the name. It's been a while, but they would they would do that initial DNA test to check and see what if it, you know, if it's something explainable, you know that that you know, left their DNA on that plate, and in some cases it did come back as you know, a cat or astray. But there was a few of them, I want to say there was between ten and fifteen of them that what we come back with was was a human and it came back as human

DNA. And so we said to ourself, well, you know, we've been doing this long enough, we're very confident that we're not contaminating these samples. But then at that time, I've been talking to several other people who said that they were doing also sending in, you know, hair samples with the with the skin tags at the at the at the bottom of at the cluster of the hair, at the base of the hair that will yield DNA,

and they were having the same problems with with their samples. Is that they were all being told that they're being there, they're being contaminated, and that that was explaining And I think even were you guys aware of that incident that Owen Caddy had up in Washington State I believe, or it might have been Oregon, Glipp are you aware of that one. No, I haven't heard much from Owen Caddie since probably two thousand and five or something like that.

No, yeah, okay, So I spoke with Owen on the phone, and I probably shouldn't be saying this other than I can tell you that Owen was on a location that he was very confident. He was with a researcher working with a family out in the woods. I believe it was Oregon, I want to say northern Oregon. But long story short is that this family was having continuing visitations. They had seen these things on their back porch.

They heard him walking back and forth on this covered porch in the back of their home, and their house was right up against the woods, and they found trackways, and they'd seen these things, you know. They were getting into a freezer in the back of the house. There was a freezer, a chest freezer or something back there that he could put you know, his game in, and that stuff was disappearing. And they actually would hear him get in there and open the lid and they would take this frozen meat

out of there. And then if I remember correctly, what Owen told me is that they had a incident happened one night where he went out investigated himself with the investigator and this said, I all just tap and it was still fresh. He said that this thing had come in on the backpaty or back porch, had hit its head on a light bulb, apparently cut its head or something that left blood on the porch that he ow and collected the sample

of that blood. And he said he knew it was one of them because he could see the trackway coming out of the trees and over this juniper bush or some ground hugging bush and had stepped right over the top of this you know, long strides and these big footprints in the snow, and it went

right back. It went up to the porch and went back out. And so Owen told me, he says, Dennis, I said, I was sure I had it, and he had sent his sample in and did the base work up on that of the you know, identification, and it came back as human. And Owen said, after that he threw in the towel. He said I was done. I just he says, I was confident I had it, and they were telling me it was contaminated. So you know, at that point we're thinking, well, you know, maybe there's

something more to this. And MI talks with this Paleo DNA lab up and British up in Ontario, Canada. The guy, you know, was well aware of what we were doing. He knew what Adrian was doing. And Adrian was paying pretty samples and they were costing us several thousand dollars every time we sent one up to have it tested, and we were just not getting results. And eventually this guy says, well, maybe you need to have a complete genome made up on that. Maybe next time you get a good

sample, just have a complete work up. And I said, well that's something you could do, He said, well, I could, but the problem is that the consumables and a lab would cost so much money in this time, he says, you're literally talking, you know, one hundred thousand dollars or more, and a lot of time to do this. So it seemed like an insurmountable problem, you know, for us to to have you

know, this, this this type of test done. But we knew that at some point there's got to be something more to this, because it can't be that every one of those samples has been contaminated by people. It just

can't be. I mean, there's just people from different areas that were confident that there you know, we we had moved far enough along that we knew, you know, a lot of these researchers had known how to handle that had to handle those samples properly without contaminating or at least minimizing it, so they couldn't all just be coming back as contaminated by humans. So there has

to be more to it. And you know, to this day, I guess you guys already know you know what Melboa's you know what her results have come out to be. Now at that point, I guy, I don't know. All I can tell you is that I know that the sample we collected and the samples that we collected there on the project, including the last one which was a blood sample, I know that it wasn't contaminated and Leela handled that very well. And I can't tell you to the state you know

what what we're dealing with there. But you know, once once we submitted that blood sample too to VELP, it was out of my hands, and you know, I uh, I don't know, you know again to this day, what what uh what truly could come out of that or if anything useful will ever come out of that? You know, Yeah, I'm that's sure. I I you know, I'm on record is basically saying I don't

think that was handled appropriately or well. I think so. I think that science, if you want to call it, that is rather questionable and should be double checked and double checked and double checked at you know, forever, always always, always more and more and more and to see what other results from other people and other labs, et cetera. But I understand there's some proprietary technology being claimed and all that, which is always a red flag.

I think that if you know one person has the key to the door and that's it forever. Then what good is that? Man? That's not science that because science is about reproducing these results and the technology like that should be shared to see what else might come out of it. But you know, when you were telling these stories, I was thinking, you know, I haven't had any cool DNA stuff, unfortunately in my big footing career. But I've been pretty close, you know, because I work with the guys from

the Olympic Project a lot. And when those nests came out a few years ago, it came out like there were a product. But you know, but like when the nests kind of hit the news in the Bigfoot news wire, I suppose a few years ago, it was really promising. And I know Meldrum went out there and took core samples of several of the nests and

had some ed and a work done on them. And they also got human contamination in these, which is possible, of course, after all, humans did, in fact, you know, collect the samples, but they were careful to choose nests that humans had not laid down in yet and all this other stuff. And I was talking to doctor Meldrum about this and kind of bounced just bouncing ideas around with them, you know, And and if these things are what I think they are, and you know, I think they're

paranthropists. I think they were a robust soustralopithescene essentially. I've kind of gone away from the giganto thing a bit. But although that's possible and on the table as well, But I think they're astralopithescenes, which is a direct human ancestor. It's a hominin. Some of the more recent ones when extinct as recently is you know, eight hundred thousand years ago, which is pretty recent. So and especially the way you're describing it, I don't know exactly.

I don't know about DNA technology because you know, once you go on that path, that's all you're doing the rest of your life. There's just so much they know and learn. If they're doing these preliminary studies, it makes me kind of feel like, perhaps you know, they were still focusing in on the picture, so to speak. You know, you don't have to have a photo, you don't have to have a focused picture of Bobo to

know it's Bobo. And if these things we broke off from them, perhaps you know less than a million years ago or who knows, you know, certainly less than two million years ago. Maybe I don't know. I'd have to wonder if our DNA is actually all that different, because we share ninety eight point what three percent four of our DNA is absolutely identical to the bonobo, the pigmy chimpanzee, and we split off from them six or eight million years ago. And you know, so if you're talking about a factor of

three to five difference, their DNA might be astonishingly similar to us. But then again, like I say, to put in perspective, we sixty percent, a full sixty percent of our DNA is identical to an earthworm, you know, so uh yeah, you know, those little percentage points you know, mean a whole lot of difference. You know, because I can picture I can picture the you know, some people out there are going, dude, you're calling me an ape because I'm a human. Well, yeah,

you're an ape because you're a human, honestly. But and there's another side of the thing, where like you're calling bigfoots or yeah, I don't know, there's both sides of that coin. I suppose, you know, people they are mad that I call humans apes, And then people get mad that I call sasquatches humans or vice versa. So yeah, no, I'm totally,

yeah, totally with you there. And that's the thing that frustrated me is I felt like what we were dealing with was I felt like, for the longest time, Cliff, that we were dealing with, well, the people that we were dealing with were looking for a grading for Gigantopithecus and they were trying to find, you know, any indication of markers that were leaning in that direction. So when these samples were sent in, if it didn't

instantly ping in that direction, they just wrote it off as contamination. Now on the first admitted it very well could have been in some of those cases, but with the propensity of the amount of samples we sent in, I knew that all of them couldn't have been. And I knew that Leela was handling the you know, the samples properly. She was disciplined there, she was trained there, and the way we collected them we were very careful to

avoid contaminating. So where I was leaning with that is that I think that what we were dealing with is something that's so close to us and not saying they were human. Obviously they're not. They possess things that we you know, abilities and physical traits obviously that are beyond ours. But mannerisms and behavior is so human like. And that's the thing that I think that blows you

away when you're close to these things and you're around them along time. As you guys know, the intelligence, the level of intelligence you're dealing with is far beyond any animal you're used to dealing with. You I felt like in many occasions that was that was face to face in the dark, maybe not face to face, but face behind a tree or whatever to another human being. That's a very high level thinking, intelligent, and almost knowing every step

we're going to take before we even know it. You know. So these DNA samples, I'm thinking, well, that's what we got to be looking for. Is something more leaning towards human in that aspect. And the amount of so I know, you guys know this story, but the DNA that I clicked in the end was blood and we had we had a significant amount

of blood. I mean, it wasn't it wasn't a huge puddle or any but it was it was you know, maybe the size of your thumbnail, you know, a nice big droplet of blood, and we had we had submitted that sample to Todd Distel out of New York. Everyone I think knows

who he is in the big footing field. But Leeli had sent a good chunk of that sample to Todd at first because she had been interacting with Todd for a while, and Todd right away came back as well, no, that's just you know, that's just more contaminated, you know, sample its human. It's not it's not anything important, it's just human. And that was very disappointing to me because I was ninety I want to say, ninety eight point nine maybe ninety nine percent sure we had that blood sample from one

of those one of those individuals. They're one of those big foot there on the property. And so I was very disappointed with that. But I did have some samples left over, some quantity of that blood sample left over, and I ended up having to send all of that to Melba. I Adriane

had talked to somebody. I'm still to this day not really sure who it was, but Adrian had been talking to somebody and they had gotten Adrian touch of me with Melba, and Melba was willing to look at that blood sample and some of our hair samples and saliva samples and other things we had and all of that stuff, and it ended up going to Melba. And to this day, I'm I'm pretty very upset about giving away all of my samples to one lab and one person because that's where it all ended up going.

And I think Todd had discarded his samples early on, so this thing had worked really hard to get this, uh, this blood sample just in some ways uh just got you know, discarded and uh and properly handled them. And again I'm still kind of bitter to that to this day. I wish it would have held on to as you know, a small bit of that so we could have had something else to send to another third party or fourth party down the line to have it. We all wish that. Yeah,

repeatability is a key to science. You know, It's not just about handling things correctly or knowing a lot of facts. You know, it's really repeatability. You know, you can't send it, you know, you can't send everything to one person. And I'm not talking to you, Dennis. You know this. You learned the hard way, unfortunately, and then we all learned the hard way through you and in our own situations too. But when people do collect things, if you have thirty air samples, don't give them

all to anybody. Give two or three to somebody and spread them around widely. If you have, you know, a thumbnail size drip of blood somewhere, scrape off a tiny little amount and here, and send it to here, send it there, send it to a bunch of other places as well. Because one person saying something, it's just one person saying something, who cares, who believes it doesn't matter if you have thirty people or to even ten or five people singing the same song, suddenly have a chorus of truth

there. And that goes a lot further amongst the scientists than anything else. Yeah. Absolutely, And I regret that to this day that I allowed that to happen because I could have I could have went, you know, I could have just held onto a small piece and not said anything. But I was obligated to, you know, to the people I was working with in

the project, and I didn't want to be de seeple that way. And I felt like maybe they knew better, you know, maybe they knew better that I gave them, given them everything I had there and I felt that it was in good hands. But you know, again, in retrospect, I'm thinking, man, I just wish it to held on to some of that and and not you know, put all our eggs in that one basket. But it is what it is. But it didn't definitely doesn't take much

blood. I mean, even a small little pinpoint sample would have been adequate, you know, And dang, it just just one of those things there. Regret there. So well, yeah, you know, anybody who has no regrets in their big footing life hasn't been big footing for very long. Yeah, stay tuned for more bigfoot and beyond with Cliff and Bogo. We'll be right back after these messages. In the end, we thought we had all these pieces of footage. Most of them weren't very good, some of

them were fairly decent. I feel like there's a couple there that have been criticized. But I wasn't there for the facial footage of Matilda footage. I wasn't there for that. I wasn't there for the initial pieces the pond where it was walking past the pond, and the pancake footage. Matt did that.

When Matt took that with surveillance cameras. But I was there later on and around when she got some other interesting pieces, like several pieces of footage of them, you know, curled up in a feeble position to sleeping. That was her. She was able to get close to him. We weren't involved in that. But that's real. Think that footage is legit? Yeah,

yeah, I do. I do, because I was around there enough, Bobo, and believe me, the entirety of five years, in particularly the first six months I was there, I was constantly looking for any kind of questionable shenanigans or things that didn't seem right. But I learned fairly quickly that you know, when these things were around, you knew it, and you knew how they acted and behaved, and she had the special bond with them, and she could approach him. Not all the time, but sometimes

she get close to them. And when she would do that, she would even be uneasy doing it. She felt She even told me one time, she said that she feels like she's betrayed their trust by trying to get footage with the camera and it they didn't like it, and she was afraid sometimes that they would hurt her. I don't know if they ever had her before, but she had some legitimate fears. It wasn't like a situation where you know, maybe making it sound like this is a place where she just go

at will and get whatever she wanted, but she couldn't do that. They even were very unpredictable with her at times. You know, they wouldn't allow her to approach them, they would get mad at her, they would display against her, they would you know, leff charge to other things that would make her fearful as well at times. So you know, I had to give her a certain amount of leeway there and I would push her and I would press her or to do more, get more, get out there and

get more footage. And you know, probably didn't help me sometimes it probably you know, they they would get angry with me quite a bit too that way. But again at the end, guys, I I we knew I talked with Adrian a lot about this in Lela, and we knew that the footage wasn't going to be you know, the it just wasn't going to be adequate be able to help push this along or get this mystery a little bit

more, uh, you know, down the road. So we felt like DNA would be the one thing that people can't really you know and you know, deny or have problems with because you can't you can't alter DNA. You know, if you get a good sample, that should come back and prove

that there's an unknown species there. Well, we set our goal in that last few months and trying to get DNA, and we knew that they were taking food and we knew that we could put you know, plates out, how do we get good samples because saliva wasn't cutting it and it wasn't substantial enough according to our one lab we were using. So we said to ourself, well, let's try to get blood. And you guys remember the whole

you remember Meldrums. He did a documentary where they went up to I believe it was Snell Grove Lake was the one where they put the yeah, yeah, the monster quests. Actually it's a monster quest, that's right, Yeah, we're him and Kurt Nelson went up and they they found a snailboard. All you guys know about the nailboard. I won't go in the details about that, but we had even come up with an idea to do that because we knew that one of the game trials they used not frequently, but that

they had used close to the property. We thought we'd bury one with just a few nails sticking out. But then, you know, then we also came up with an idea of putting fish hooks out in the trees along the trail in hopes that it would snag a piece of flesh or hair. And all of these things that we were coming up with. I felt we're just too too barbaric, too brutal, because if we injured them, And of course she felt that way too, that these were just things that you know,

just was a little too over the top. But we were desperate to try to get some some hair or skin or blood, you know, preferably flash or something that you know is very very pure. And eventually we came to the conclusion, well, they are taking these places of food, so what we could do is we could try to get blood out of that. And how do we do that? So what we we came up with this plan and we took some uh, some sterile glass from just some thin glass

like you find in the drinking glass or something. Right when you break a little you know, thin wall, drinking glass, it's fine glass. It's

sharp. We took some little shards of that that we had sterilized, this glass we had sterilized, and then we took a clean new paper plate and a stack, and then we took some crazy glue and we put three of these little shards, arranged them at the very middle of this plate, and put them in a semicircle, right, and arranged him so the little sharp edges of this glass would just stick up just enough to just give you a little bit of laceration, not cut you deep, but set it up in

a way where it would just lacerate just enough to draw some blood. And I mean, we painstakingly built this plate just to make sure that we wouldn't hurt him or you know, hurt anything that would take food off of that very badly. Right, So we did this, and then we took a piece of bread with peanut butter and we flopped it right over the top of that glass, right, so the bread and the peanut butter was covering this

glass. And then we had her cover the whole thing with syrup. And this was something, like I said, they really seemed to like because they would clean the whole plate. And the idea was is that if they cleaned the plate hopefully would get them to last crate their lip or the tongue or something, you know, and we could get a little bit of blood that way. I know it kind of sounds brutal, but you know, the tongue and the lips and the areas, the tissue in the mouth area heals

very quickly, and yeah, it's the least likely to get problems. So we thought that would be probably the most the most useful way to try to get something without creating a huge problem. You know. We did that and for three nights we would we put that out there, and nothing took this

food. But on that third night, she said that she thought she had heard them back there, and we left the plate and went inside, and we came back out a couple hours later, and we could see that it had been moved, you know, it had been literally picked up and moved and placed about twenty thirty feet away from where we had left it, and it was completely cleaned off, just like they do. So we were pretty

confident that we thought that this is one of them. You know, that I had actually taken this food, and I picked the plate up, was wearing rubber gloves, picked the plate up, kept it far away from myself and immediately put it into a new paper bag, a large paper bag, one of the like grocery bags, and we sealed it up, carried it in and when we looked at it under the light, we could see the blood on the on the plate, and I got photos of that plate.

They took it over to Leela right away to the tour. She had a little makeship ship lab in the back of the house and she processed it and cut it up and sent the samples out. And that part of that sample is what went to Melba. Actually a good part of it sample went to Melba, and that's how we obtained that. And you know, like I said to this day, we were just confident it had to be one of

them because when animals took those plates, we knew it. They chewed the plates are pretty good and they usually left them in a spot, but most of the time, nothing even touched the plate, nothing even touched the food in the time that we left it out there. So we were very confident that this was one of them that took that plate. So that's how we got that blood sample. You know what the footage I really liked was I think you got was the night footage where there's one walk and I think it

was left right then the female walking directly away kind of waddling. Oh, yes, that that piece of footage was taken by her husband, and it was it was through night vision. Bubble yeah, green, yeah, third gin. Yeah. That's another one of those things where I said at the beginning of this, I told you guys, you had to be there to really understand this. You know, people look at that and he said, that's probably a guy in a suit. But listen, you know, I

was there enough. I've seen these things around that property and they're in their element when they're in the trees, and they're very stealthy and quiet, you know, and hard to even get close to, let alone sea or even that could be. I was standing next to one less than ten feet and

I never knew it was there. And the only reason I figured out that it was there was it finally grunted right at me and I realized it was like less than ten feet from my head, right and otherwise I didn't smell it, I didn't hear it. I didn't even know it was there. It was real spooky to know that they're that good, and we're just totally blind, dumb animals out there right in the dark, and we're totally vulnerable.

But this piece of footage he had gone into the barn. This is the time when we were still working with him pretty good, and we were trying to get more footage from him, and they were trying to get footage ACRUSS, and we had outfitted them with a good high definition sony HANDICAM hard drive, you know, high deaf footage all that, with a good third gen PBS fourteen night vision couple of that, and those worked pretty good in the dark, but you still had to have some light to get some usable

image. Otherwise it got really grainy when it got pretty dark with no moonlight. Right, well, this particular night, there was enough moon and he had gone out to the bar, or actually to his garage and he was sitting in the garage just what he told me. I was there when he took this footage, but he said he was sitting in the garage and had been waiting there for several hours and he had her come out put food out near the garage, and he was sitting inside a darkened garage. Well,

there was no light on. He's inside this garage with a window that pased out the back, and now this window had many blinds on it, and he's sitting behind the many blinds, looking out through the backyard at the tree line going down the back of their hill. And he said that after a while he saw movement, and so he took the camera up and he saw this thing coming towards where she had put the food, which was near where

he was. And he said that he turned the camera on, and as the camera came on, this thing looked right at the at the window and saw him inside this darkened garage. I don't know to this day, I don't know how. I said, did you have the light? Because we had the the way we had these cameras set up is that it had an eye cup and you had to put your eye to the eye cup. And so I doubt that he had any light leaking from the camera because he had

to look through the eye cup to take footage. And this thing saw him moving inside of this darkened garage in the dark at night. And he said, what it did is it instantly spun around on its I think he said it was his left leg, but it was it was walking towards him, and it instantly spun on its left leg and started walking back in the other direction, back down the hill. And he said, by that time,

that's when the camera got started recording. By the time he got the odd button on and got it recording, what you see is it's walking away from him, back down the hill, and it goes down a little ways and then there's a patch of very tall weeds and it goes you see it go to these to this, to these tall weeds and stuff, and it kind of turns sharply to its left and walks behind his cluster of shrubs and weeds, and it just stops there, and I guess it's looking back up towards

him, but you lose it as soon as it gets into the weeds. He just kind of just totally lose it in that night vision because of the quality of the you know, the footage is just not very good. But when they stop moving, you just can't see him. They just blend in

so well. But that was that piece of footage. And he said, what it was remarkable to me about that Bobo was that he said that he was in a darkened garage dot he had a perfect trap set up, and then it wouldn't see him, and somehow it still sees him in this garage and goes back down the hill into the dark and you know, goes back

into the tree or the weeds back down in there. So it's one of those many, many experiences where you say yourself, well, had it been people messing around, how would they have They've got to have spectacular night vision, they've got to have the ability to see and superhuman abilities to be able

to see and do the things that these things did around there. And imagine so like doing that even if somebody is wearing his suit, for instance, and they're walking around in a suit trying to fool people, how are they going to get be able to see so well and hear so well even within the confines of a suit. You know, again, you had to be there and experience this stuff to understand the depth of the abilities of these things

and how often things like that happened. That just told you that you're not dealing with with anything but something you know, phenomenal out there, something that's not like us at all. I mean, I thought it didn't walk with a human like it walked like a Sasquatch to me that I had wider hips, and you know, Bob, that those things, they're the ones. And I saw them six times in the time that I was there, in that five years, I saw them with my own eyes six times. I

you know, we got some footage pieces mostly it was them. I got a few small pieces myself, but they actually see them moving and walking around. My impression was when I saw them with my with an unaided eye, was I was looking at another person for a brief second, because what I saw, what the movement I saw looked very human like in almost every aspect. It wasn't hunched over or you know, moving around like a gorilla or a monkey. These things move very graceful and very human like and unhurried.

They weren't running, and they weren't, you know, acting any different than a person would act in many ways. And when this one in that footage, when it turned around and it was walking back down the hill, you could see the body shape of that thing it and again the ones I seen had that same body shape. They were not super white at that at the shoulders, they had almost wider hips. So we referred to the ones around there, which we saw I want to say there was three of them that

we saw, mostly three of them. We referred to them as females because they have a female that pear shape of the body, that the hips being whiter than the shoulders. And I say three of them, I say there was a very young one that you described in the pancake footage, and then there was a one that was about six foot night and the other one which is slightly taller than that. And they all had the same body shapes except for that very young one had a very large elongated head with the body.

You know, it had an odd shape to the head. It was just kind of like an egg turnam its side, not straight up and down, but on its side in elongated skull kind of underneath that hair. And I think you can kind of see that in that pancake, but it's just got an odd toddler child toddler to look to it. You know, which ones did you personally see? The other three? I saw the I believe it was the one around six foot tall. And the reason I say believe it

was that one is because it was underneath me. I was up on a tree stand and it came out from behind some shrubs and bushes in a tree line that we were on, and it came around trying to skirt around this tree stand that me and her husband were in, and I saw it from head to toe. But I was looking down at it at like a forty five degree angle from about fifteen feet up, and I was looking at it. It was dark, but there was enough moonlight I could see the entire

body perfectly in the moonlight. And it had that same shape. The hips were really wide, and it looked just heavy set, you know, just solid, big boned, but not super tall, just big boned, you know. But yeah, that was I mean, I could go on for hours tell you about all the different experiences I had there, and there's some pretty interesting stuff. I just don't have the time. But you know, in five years I spent I spent about two weeks out of every month over

there. You know, I still had a family here in Colorado. I had to be home, but I would go out there and spend about, you know, ten days to fourteen days at a time, and be out there almost every night when I could, and just trying to get stuff. And I said, most of the time we just didn't get anything. But there was those times that made up for all of that, all that dead time. And you know, Bubbo, having known that you wanted to come out there, or even you Cliff God, I would have been happy to

have you guys come out. I could have got I could have we could have brought you out and hosted you. I just didn't have any idea, you know, really really didn't know you know that, you know, yeah, I could have on that, but I didn't know that you guys, you know, had the time or wanted to even do that. But well, honestly, uh, I knew you at the time. I think we'd become friends before you went out there, like maybe a year or two before

that. But when I heard that you got put on the project like that, I I took a couple of steps back to get because I respected you and I wanted you to have all the space I didn't. You know, you didn't even need you didn't need me nosing around in your business. So I just kind of like, let you do what you need to do. Figured well, I'm going to catch up with Dennis eventually, I'll figure, you know, I'll hear some stuff. So yeah, well, you know,

here's the thing. What I like to say, is if given enough time, if if I could have had you out there as a guest, which I think Adrian would have been fine with that. But had I had enough time and you guys spent enough time there with with us there, you definitely would have come away scratch in your your head thinking, man, there's just spend enough time there and you'd have your own experiences that would, you know, blow you away. They really are, really with some fascinating stuff

that happened around there. And that's one of the things I found about that area is that a lot of people around there have had experience and continue to have experiences, but they just stay hush about it. My favorite part about the whole thing is that it's where of the late great hero of mine, doctor John Binnenol got to see his one on aise Sasquatch was at that place. Yeah. John, great guy, as you guys know, and we had him out for two weeks and great, great, great man he well,

as you all know. Everyone that knew him knew and loved John. He was just really good at heart and what a loss for all of us when he passed. But in the two weeks he got the experience several things including we had rocks thrown at us from the tree line, vocalizations he's heard, and and then of course his own sighting that we were at their house and rainy day. Here's something that's interesting clip for Bobla. I want to

ask you guys this. I don't think we've ever talked about this, but one of the things that I found over time in that location was that, you know, everyone tends to think of these these things as being primarily nocturnal, right, They don't tend to be too active during the day, at least that that's what we believe. But the encounters around there occurred at all times, mostly at night. But you know, I would never say that

that's the only time we'll ever have experiences. It could be first thing at sunlight, be ten in the morning, two in the afternoon, or you know, eleven o'clock at night, or whatever. It didn't matter. It

could happen at almost any time. But what I did find over over these five years is that when we had bad weather, when when it was snowy or particularly rainy and cloudy, overcast and just generally yucky and you didn't want to be outside, guess who seemed to be more active, and it was it was a rainy really, just kind of a crappy day that that day that John had his daylight signing, And I tend to believe that maybe they know that we're just not as you know, people are just not out in

that stuff. It's often it's a little safer for them to be out. But we tended to have more activity during the day when it was like that,

overcast and cloudy. And in that particular day, we saw one from the inside the house up at the tree line, and the woman had said that she had heard him back in there and she thought they were there, so she went out with umbrella and she's walking up and down this tree line, you know, a couple hundred yards from the house, and we're washing her through window and she stops and you can see her kind of looking in

a direction in the trees and talking. And eventually we saw this this brown, brown patch of hair moving back in the trees, and you can John we gave John farribinoculars. He said he could see his shoulder and part of an arm and it was standing there looking towards her. So I think that was his sighting, right, there. Stay tuned for more Bigfoot and Beyond with Cliff and Bobo. Will be right back after these messages. Now.

To address the nocturnal versus diurnal thing, obviously they're not exclusively nocturnal, because the Patterson Gimlin film for example. But do you feel through your experiences there that they're more prone to come closer at night or do you think it doesn't matter at all? I think that at night. Yeah, I think that we definitely got closer to them at night than we did during the day.

At least, that they made their selves known when we were you know, at times and we were close to them, and that came in the form of some aggressiveness. Like you know, we would work those those those woods, those tree lines quite a bit. And I mean when I say work them, we would be walking from just about before dark. We'd go out there and we'd have camp quarters and we'd have I'd have my audio gear going. I kept them in the shirt pocket. I had this a digital reporder,

you know, like a digital audio recorder going for audio. And then they kept we kept camp quarters and extra batteries and night vision, and we stuffed them in pockets and we'd put them on try to conceal and hide them. But we carried them with us all the time, right and well most of the time. When we get close to them after dark, I felt like we could get pretty close because even though we had the equipment, they were still they had the advantage because they're back into the stick foliage, into

the trees and core. You know, even with night vision, if you're looking into the trees, you still have shading, and it's it's like during the day when the sun shine down into the trees, even if you have moonlight, the stuff cast shadows and you can't they could be in their ten feet and you still can't see them even with night vision unless they're moving, you know, And we could get we could get close to them, and we knew we were close because we would hear them, and you know,

sometimes they would literally just you know, make odd noises or very subtle noises, and you'd know it's not a you know, three hundred pound squirrel back in there in the middle of the night, you know, chirping at you. The other times we would literally hear, you know, sounds that were I don't want to say like language, but you know, guttural guttural sounds. We knew the sounds they made, and we knew it was them. One particular night, clip I got in, we were going to put food

out for him. And this was a period of time when she felt like, since I was there a lot, that I should make them more acclimated to me being involved in putting food out with her. And I would go

with her a few times, and then I went out one evening. It was pretty damn cold, it was middle of winter, but it was a clearer, starry night, and I went out with the husband and we walked out way out to the back of the field and got to the edge of it, and she had said that she had thought she had heard him back in there earlier that day, so she thought maybe that would be a good

place for us to go work. So we did, and I carried a plate of food all the way back there with her husband, and we get towards the back of the field and like I said, this is all, you know, all thick woods and kind of spooky, and we're standing out in the open field. And I looked at her husband and I said, okay, well you want to take the food in there? Or should I take it in there. He goes, no, you do it. So I picked up the late and I'm holding both my hands and I start walking

into the trees. And now this area of the trees had a lot of ceedars. There's a lot of seedars out there, you know, so it's a deciduous forest, right, but there's some evergreens in there mixed in in that part of Kentucky. So these cedars, when you know, even in the winter, they're very thick, and it's pretty dark in there, and that that was this part of the woods was a part that had a lot

of cedar growth in it. So I'm kind of walking into the trees here and I'm getting into wards like a dark quarter, and I literally cannot see the plate in my hand. It's that black. I look straight up and I could see the pinpoint of the stars through the tree canopy, but I can't see in front of me. So I'm I'm walking and I'm literally using my feet to fill in front of me so I don't trip. And I went in maybe twenty or thirty yards into the trees. I start I start

just doing what she does, you know. I start trying to talk to them, and I'm thinking, okay, I'm not sure they're there. I'm just doing what she does, right. So I'm holding this plate of food and I'm going, I got your food for you, and here it is, you know, and I'm trying to talk in this kind of sing song voice that she does, and and I'm I'm I say a few times, I got your food for you, and then I stop and I'm listening, and it's you could hear a pin drop. It is that absolute still night

there is. It's you know, maybe you know, twenty degrees outside, it's cold, it's dry, it's not a sound, and no animals, nothing. And I said a couple more times, and every time I say it, I stop, and I'm listening and I'm listening and I'm strained to hear, and I don't hear anything. And I did this about four or five times, and about the fifth time, I said, I got your food for you here, and suddenly to my left and just a little bit above me, and I swear it could have been more than ten feet from

me. It's just this, just like that, just a I'll tell you what, guys, I wanted to come out of my boots so quickly I scared the you know what out of it. Yeah, I was so I didn't want to say it froze up. But her husband was back. He heard it. He's back of the tree lines and he's going, dude, dude, dude, put that down. And I'm just sitting there thinking, oh, of course, that's why, Hugh. It just wanted me to

put it down and quit talking and get the hell out of there. It just made no sense to me at them, so I did every bone in my body. Guys wanted me to go running out of those woods full speed and just throw that plate right because it had been standing there that whole time, in this pitch black and I never knew it was there. I couldn't smell it, I never heard it, didn't have any clue it was right

there, but you know it was there. And I set that plate down as quickly and calmly as I could and turned and walked straight out of there. And I wanted to run out of there because it was that close to me. But you know, God, how many times had we been in there and when it was that you never even had had an idea you know that, you know one was was that close to you, so you know it makes me wonder how long that thing was standing there just like looking at

you. It's thinking like, what what what's up with this new guy? Man? Like, what what's wrong with this thing down right? Clip? You know, I'm I'm like, I was a dude. I was blown away at how I couldn't smell because that you know, you know, from time to time we would smell him, and believe me, they had a rank. I mean it was it was bad, but there's other times that we were real close to him like that, or they were you know, we knew they were into a sity and you could sell them. And it

was mostly in the winter it was really cold. I just figured because it was so cold, they were not exuding a lot of difference sense, you know, or anything. But at that point I never smelled him. He was that close. I never heard it or smelled it. And I'm not gonna say him. It could have been a him or I don't know, but it was right there and that old time, and God, I just thought, if it was light enough, I had the ability to see how

remarkable that would have been to been that close to it. You know, yeah, didn't you guy? It wasn't there a ten foot mail scene there, like by the telephone the light pole one time, so I don't ten foot, no, I think that we came to the conclusion it was around seven and a half to eight foot and the guy, her husband, actually had a very frightening run into it one night out of the tree stand, and we were able to get a pretty good idea of its hype because it

had moved a limb when he was up in the tree stand. It was nearly to his knees while he was up on a tree stand, and he had moved this limb, and he told me where its head was, and the next day we were able to go out there and measure that to get a pretty close idea of you know, figured that was between seven and a half day foot tall. But what the guy kept impressing upon me bobos like

we've all heard. He said, dude, it wasn't that it was just because it was that freaking tall, Because it was tall, but he says, it was the size of the thing. It was enormous. He was shooken up about that for days because he had seen the other ones, the females, I want to say, the females, the smaller ones. He had seen the other ones for the prior few years, and he had never really seen the male, the big male. The male wasn't around that often

from what we understood. From what we could surmise from the situation was this was a family group. But the females and the young one seemed to be around there most often, and the male would come and go. You'd only see him every you know, maybe every couple of months. He might come around for a very short period of time and he was gone again. And do you know knocks when the male was around. Did you notice any different vocalizations or do is you get any patterns at all, like as far as

vocals or knocks you know? In fact, there I found that unusual. I think that because of the proximity of all the homes and being that it was a rural setting and that literally homes were on all these you know, hollow ridges and down these roads, and that they these houses literally dropped back

into these hollows. I think that in terms of vocalizations, I don't think they vocalized loudly or very much, or there was a few occasions we heard wood knox or wood knock types of sounds, but rarely and we did associate that with them. But when it came to vocalizations, these weren't very vocal. They weren't very vocal there. They just did not make a lot of screams or noises. Now having said that, I did get a fantastic series

of screams from one of them one evening on their property. I recorded this on a new digital SD card media and when I went to review it, I thought, oh, this is the most awesome. It was literally that woman screaming crazy, streaky, you know, crazy, you know, aha, you know that kind of stuff. And when I went to Dreddit pulled it off recorder later that night, it was corrupted and I lost it all.

But but yeah, it was so I'll tell you what. I was just one of the many things that just make you just go, damn it, I just want to give up. But often no, we hardly ever heard them, and we didn't get much in terms of wood knocks around there. But the big mail we knew it was around from time to time because either she said she would get a glimpse of it or see it. The husband had his run in with with it one night and it scared him so bad he didn't want to go back into the woods for a long time,

because again he tried to tell me he impressed upon me. I never saw, but he said the size of this thing was what scared him so bad. He said, that thing's walking around the woods out there, and it's it's just it's just not right. It's what he said, it's just not right. He illumined that face with a headlamp that he was wearing that night when he was sitting in the tree stand trying to get footage, and the thing came up to the tree stand and pulled the branch down, and he

heard it move the branch, and we looked over. He saw this thing looking right at him, and he said that the head there was a human face, high cheekbones like a like a Native American kind of but it had almost like a semi beard, so it had a male figure like, you know, feature like a beard, but not full beard like a man,

but you know, the sides and the mustache kind of thing. And then it had had a clear forehead, no hair in the forehead, but then it had hair, you know, like a like a human in many ways, shaggy long hair. He said, this thing had teeth and when he hit it with the with the headlamp of his uh, you know, his life with a headlamp. He said that this thing kind of brought one of its hands up to kind of shield its eyes and it and it bared its

teeth, and he said that it had very prominent canines. Kind of like that facial footage, you can see a little bit of a canine in there, but he said that the canines were very prominent. So that's still out to him. But he said, he said, Dennis, he gets saying, Dennis, it's the size of the thing. He said, it was the size of a five gallon bucket. It was a head that was four or five times the size of any human he's ever seen. It was just

enormous. And he said the shoulders just they look to be like four foot wide, you know, just incredibly massive. And it scared him the desk because he said that up to that point he had been kind of dealing with the others and they were more lined or proportion to a large person, but this thing was well beyond that. Okay, So Dennis, like you had a lot, you had excitings. You said you were around these things pretty

often. I'd say you know, more than a ravage bear, or maybe not more than a bear, but you know what I mean, what sort of behaviors like, like, what sort of interesting behaviors besides oh they can see in the dark perfectly or they're really quiet. What sort of things did you observe them doing or have done? What can you tell us what you saw there and what you learned from that? Well, that's a tough that's good question. I think that one thing I learned is that you have to

be very persistent and predictable if you want. For me, the only way to really approach this research anymore is it would be great to find out a situation like theirs, where you have people that are kind of accustomed to and if you're in that situation, and I'm sure there's people that's probably been doing this much longer than me, and probably far more matters or more advanced, probably working maybe working with even a group that's more you know, used to

being around people. But to me, that's really the ideal situation in order for us to understand these things is to be it is to be in a situation like that where you can have some semblance of predictability about these things. In other words, you can say, hey, we know that they're going to be around here every so many days or every few weeks. We don't know exactly with time, but if they're going to be around here, how

can I be prepared to maybe have an interaction with them? And I think that's a big part of that is just be a very predictable human being, be very non threatening, be pretty open, and don't show fear and be afraid. I mean, that was something that was very difficult for me to do. But I kept a go for face all the time and I did not, you know, show fear and try to act like I was afraid of these things. I tried to approach, you know, areas they were

in and sit down quietly and be patient and just wait. And that was a big thing for me. I think I had a lot of interactions because I would just sit quietly and wait for them to come to me or to you know. You know you guys, I'm sure you've experienced this. You sit in the spot, you have a feeling they're around, until you see patiently and eventually you'll hear them come closer or or they will do things that in other words, they kind of kee you in that they're they're around there.

They'll make noises deliberately so you know that you know they're they're kind of telling you that they're there. So if you can reach those kind of milestones, I think that that's a pretty good, pretty good place to be in this research because you're kind of getting a certain level of trust. Maybe that's

what I'm looking for. But the big thing is just be predictable and be it somebody that you you can demonstrate that you're not someone to be feared or be afraid of, you know, by them, because you're very predictable. You're not going to do anything that will frighten them, you know, to be threatening to them. You know, a number of years ago I came to you for some advice. I don't know if you remember or not, but I had a spot up in Mounta Hood here that they were they seem

to be at rather you know, rather often. What you said to me, and you said it so concisely. It's like you need to become a predictable feature in their environment exactly. And that's the way I try to approach any new areas as well. You know, I'm sorry, Cliff, what was the other question, Oh, I want to know about any unusual behaviors

that you might have observed out there that maybe aren't widely known. I think I remember one time I was talking to you years ago and you mentioned something about you finding areas where they had cleared the forest debris away from the forest floor. Am I remembering that correctly? Or yeah, yes, exactly. Actually documented at several times places that she had seen them sleeping. Like I mentioned earlier, the footage where you're kind of in a semi fetal or fetal

position. We've gone back later and found that that area that they were bedded down in was cleared of debris. Okay, all the leaves and the glitter and the and the grass, it's cleared away. So there's they're directly on the soil, which I found odd, and even in the snow. I came across beds several times. In fact, one of them very early on the project, within the first two months of the project. Cliff I was

at the location and came across tracks that were in the cedars. This was in December of that first year, and these tracked them through the cedars, and then there was a bedding area that was underneath one of the theaters, you know, one of the areas that didn't have as much snow, and it had cleared all the snow out and was betted down and all the duff, all the litter and the needles in the in the leaves and was bedded straight on the soil. And I found that was interesting. I discovered that

several times during that project. And another interesting thing, Cliff, I'm sure you've heard of this. You remember Kathy Mosquith I believe, was the one that actually brought to light somebody had found what they call it cedar ball. So, oh, yeah, I've seen pictures of that, right, Yeah.

We discovered something very similar to that along one of the game trails out there somewhere in the middle of the project, and it was basically there was a lot of cedar trees with that very fine bark you can literally peel it right, and that bark would come off in strips, and we found a degraded it looked to me like something very similar to Kaffy had, but it was like a ball and it was stuffed with leaves basically, with a lot of like oak and what I forget the other type of tree around there,

but dessiduous trees leaves were inside of this crudely woven it was about the size of a cantilope. I want to say, to this day, I can't tell you what, where, or why or how. I don't even know if it was a big foot that made it, but it was. It was very reminiscent of that when I saw that. So another odd thing there that you know, I have to say, really struck out on my memory. This conversation could literally go on, I think, for another three hours,

and we haven't spoken anything and won't because we don't have time. But we haven't. We haven't even spoken about your your big footing adventures elsewhere. I honesty clip after after the whole fiasco with Melba in the Ericson project. Adrian is a good man. You know. I worked with that man for

five years. He had true, pure intentions on trying to do this because you know, he was trying to answer his own questions, and you know, he had experiences growing up in Canada, he had run in several times with these creatures, and he's one of these people like many of us, who had to know you know, he was determined to come about you know answers to this mystery, and he couldn't do it. He couldn't come down himself and do it, and he had to have us doing it because he

had to run that business. So he was pretty well tied to that. But his intentions were right. He was he he was, you know, he did all he could. Some people have kind of drug him through the mud a little bit, but Adrian, really his intentions was pure. He wanted to help solve this mystery with this project, and the way things turned out in the end, with the couple we were working with, and poor Leela the things that she had to go through, and and other people that

we dealt with their good and bad, mostly difficulties. I just have got a resentment for the entire not people, because I know a lot of great people in big putting, but I just jaded about the whole thing. Yeah here you yah, I have a blood sample I have. We've worked very hard on this project. We thought, hey, we didn't never once didn't think that we were going to be the ones to break the soap, And we're just trying to help move the ball down the line a little bit more,

to help connect some dots. So other people can kind of put into right. But along the way the difficulties that we had to over and not overcome. But I mean we had a lot of difficulty we couldn't overcome. We just the problems that were constantly coming up. You know, no matter what we do as investigators and researchers were not gonna really affect anything until the time is right. But I honestly just didn't feel like the time is right.

Then. Too many things you know, came up that just you know, snatched defeat from the jaws of victory, and I became jaded about the whole thing, and I just thought, well, if we can't do it now with what we have other than having a body, a living specimen or a body, there's really no way to do this and move that forward.

And you know, our whole intentions with the Erickson project was was really the hopefully set up a location that we could bring people in, people like you and Bobo and John and Jeff Meldrum and biologists and anthropologists and people who could

you know, have some bit of interet action with these things. Because we saw potential in that location, and hey, if there's any place that we have a good chance of people getting to see these things and maybe witness a little bit of their behavior and verify that these things actually exist and maybe get some biological evidence out of them. This might be the spot. But you

know, everything just went to right with that whole project. Everything that could go wrong went wrong, and every everybody and all their problems and things that you know, humans created more problems than we ever needed to have on that project, which really is what kind of destroyed the whole thing. It was just just human habits, human bad I don't want to get into the details, but I'm just saying it was people screwed it up. It wasn't really

the creatures. Then one final question, do you think that the body of evidence, like the footage, the reports, the footprints, all that stuff, do you think it'll ever be made public for everyone to you know, to check out for the You know, it's up to Adrian, really, I am. I've been under an NDA for a long time and he's given me a lot of liberty to talk about it. But I think it's really

up to him. He kind of he's like me. He just threw his hands up in the end after the whole problem with the DNA and melbook and the paper and everything else, and he kind of just gave up on it all. And well, that's the thing, you know, That's what I think. That's a lot of the reason that Bobo and I were frankly kind of, you know, harassing you for a while to get on the show, because at the end of the day, Bobo and I both know you. We both know Leela, I don't I don't know Adriene, I don't

know the people of the property owners. I don't know anybody else except for you two, and you know, Moneymaker and a few other people, but you guys were the main folks there. You know, you and Laila, and I know both of you. I'd like both you, and I trust both of you. You know you You've shown your quality, so if you

say it, I believe that's the truth that as you see it. And that's why I think it's so important that you came on the show today and uh and told us your version of it to the best of your you know, the best your ability from your perspective, this is the truth. Because I know you well enough that I'm not going to question anything you tell me because I trust you. You're You're a man of integrity and honesty and a good observer. No one, no one, uh no, no reason to

lie. I mean, there just doesn't make any sense, you know. So having you coming on today and setting the record as straight as it can be from one man's perspective, I think is an important thing that you've done. So thank you very much. Yeah, thank you guys. I appreciate you giving me a chance to tell a little bit more about, you know, my side. Like I said, ever reluctant to do it anymore. I just and I'm trying to, you know, I'm occupied with other things

in life. But I definitely appreciate the chance to uh, you know, talk with you guys about it because we never really have talked in depth about it. It was really good hearing from you again, man, I mean it's been too long. Thanks a lot again for coming on and all right, they bull will take care of Thank you so much. Yeah, good talking to you both, you guys, and appreciate it. I guess I'll let you go to bed, it's getting pretty late. And everyone else,

thanks for tuning in. We really appreciate it. Spread the word. If you'd like what you're here, pass it on with some other people know, and until the next time, keep it squatchy. Thanks for listening to this week's episode of Bigfoot and Beyond. If you liked what you heard, please rate and review us on iTunes, subscribe to Bigfoot and Beyond wherever you get your podcasts, and follow us on Facebook and Instagram at Bigfoot and Beyond podcast.

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