From the Vault: Ep. 9 - Partners in Progress, the Hidden Half of Entrepreneurship

Hey everybody , we're back again . It's Mark Zweig and Eric Howerton and we're here with another episode of Big Talk About Small .

Business , it's business .

Is it business ? It's business , okay , business , okay , hey . Anyway , it's great to be here with you all today , and we've got some very special guests with us . We have the lovely and talented wives of Eric and myself , tara Howerton and Sonia Zweig , with us .

Howerton and Sonia Zweig with us . Welcome , welcome , welcome to the show . We're so glad that you are here . Thank you , this is great , yeah , y'all excited about this .

Very , very . Why are we talking so softly ? Yeah , I'm not sure anybody's going to be able to hear us , because the mics are on .

You know we're always quiet out front .

Is that it yeah ? Quiet out front . Is that it yeah ?

How about at home ? No .

No , that's very , very uncomfortable , uncomfortable .

What are you talking about ? This is a beautiful studio with nice seating . We have good lighting .

Yeah , we have to watch our mouths , so we have to think before we respond .

I mean , because the general public if they heard some of this .

And the thing is these guys just leave themselves wide open . Sometimes you just got to go in for the kill , it's right there .

That's why this would not take very long .

No , hey , the reason we have these ladies with us today everybody is . We thought it might be interesting to bring in the spouses entrepreneurs , because that's a common situation . Entrepreneurs are married , whether they're men , women or they's yeah , they're they're .

So I'm originally from Louisiana , I'm military for about 10 , 13 years , I guess , and then all medical since then . So work in the hospital and the medical setting , and so my world and Eric's world are drastically different , and so it's been interesting to Hell of a ride , hadn't it been a day before .

What do you do now ? You're a nurse practitioner .

Yeah , nurse practitioner , and so I work at Mercy and I work for Highlands Oncology .

Yeah .

Doing real stuff . Yeah , that's tough Dealing with lives . It's important work , yes , yeah .

And so , and so it's I think I think that has been a really interesting dynamic in in our relationship , from being an entrepreneur and you know and I've , I've had a job that is just very I mean there's job security till the end of time and so you know , consistent paycheck , consistent work , all of that , and so that's kind of gone a long ways , you know ,

Really , I remember a certain birthday party or something for Eric where he was playing music . You seemed like you enjoyed that .

I mean I love him , but I think I know what she's saying .

She comes from a very structured background and there's nothing structured about entrepreneurship . No , no .

Yeah .

It wasn't an attack on me as a man .

No , but it was his choice of profession .

Being as much of a fan of your music is , you know that says something . Actually I was kind of shocked at that birthday party you set up a little stage in the backyard there , I mean I was kind of shocked .

He hit it . He was pretty good , don't worry it's gone down his sense .

It really has so no , you were saying you weren't a big fan . I mean , what do you mean by that ?

Yeah , just the you know the ups and downs of it , and especially the downs I mean right . My mindset was OK , why are you doing this ?

Well , he made sacrifices for many years to get where he wanted to be and eventually it paid off . But you know a lot of people go like , oh , you're an overnight success , yeah , Overnight success after 30 years of work . Overnight success after 30 years of work yeah , yeah , yeah .

Yeah .

I grew up in a house where my dad although I can't ever claim he was remotely an entrepreneur he was self-employed and it was very unstable , you know , and I did not like that feeling of instability Not that we ever missed it , you know they'd ever had any debt , so when we had every single thing we needed , but it was always like , well , hell , I don't know

yeah , yeah , that's true , I couldn't understand what she was talking about during those times and the flip side of that that's in wiring .

Yeah , right , you might be that stress was one thing , but you might be more stressed out and just sitting there in a desk job and we're not capping on Walmart here , but in that type of road , sure .

Where there's structure all around I don't have . I have these boxes . I would go absolutely crazy . I would not .

I think we're both unemployable really . Yeah , I know I've thought about that .

I'm unemployable too , is the really ? Yeah , I know , I've thought about that . I'm unemployable too , is the problem .

Well , speaking of you , no , no , no . Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background , sonia .

Why don't you know , I don't do very well with that . Well , I don't even do resumes . I mean , can you just do it ? That's awesome .

Tell us about . Tell us about your youth and some of the work experiences that you've had .

I've had a lot of work experience . One of my first jobs was shoveling manure in the horse barns . Yeah , my mother said , if you don't have a job by Friday . You know it was like summer after 10th grade or something .

Friday came there's your shovel , here's the manure .

Three years .

It's good for you though .

Yeah , those thoroughbred horses , they're beautiful .

Te Beautiful Teaches you some humility . Do an honest work like that , so okay . So you shoveled shit for some years in the bar . It's okay . Shit's not that bad of a word .

So what then ? I worked for attorneys at Retired FBI through college .

Love the law . You say Retired FBI . Mm-hmmbi , what do you mean ?

they were tired . She worked for a retired . Oh really , that's fbi agents who were investigators .

Oh cool you love the law I love every little tiny technicality of it but you didn't go to law school .

You went into a different field , got into lending .

I did , got into lending , did that 17 years and then I went to work for you .

And so tell everybody what that was like . What ?

That's called leading the witness . Objection Hold and ruled .

Yeah , you are the one leading . You can't overrule . Tara can overrule you , you can't .

She actually said her name , right . I'm sorry , I say Tara .

I was first told Tara and then I keep hearing everybody say Tara .

I mean it's fine , we're getting off track here .

What is it ? Is it Tara , it's Tara .

Tara Okay .

So it's sort of in the middle . Tara Okay , tara , tara , tara , tara Okay . You say tomato , I say tomato .

Mm-hmm , okay , you say tomato , I say tomato . Well , you know , I went to work for you in a company that you know . It was supposed to be a bird's nest on the ground and uh well , we were all working in one room for a while yep , that's when we first got the company back from the private equity firm that owned it and been taken over by the lender .

So we were working with the lender to turn it around Right . That was a fun time , wasn't it .

Yeah Well , I mean it was fun when we were playing practical jokes on people . You know it was 10 o'clock at night when I think I hear somebody in the building because I'm the only one there working . That wasn't all that much fun . A little scary . A little scary , very dark .

So tell us more . So that was the turnaround situation . How did you like that ?

Actually it's a bit of a thrill Extremely stressful , but a bit of a thrill . You get a real sense of accomplishment when it gets started around .

True , now , you and your mom had your own business too , didn't you ?

Mm-hmm .

So it's not like you're not used to self-employment . No , we're family , and your family had a bunch of businesses , a bunch of businesses , yeah . So now , your first husband wasn't like me .

No , he's more like Tara . He's a really good guy . No , he's a real . I mean , he and Mark call themselves husband-in-laws , oh okay , yeah , but he's very structured from Louisiana and that's just where he's most comfortable .

Mm-hmm the structure .

Yeah , very planned out , very yes , can predict what's going to happen each day that sounds like hell on earth to me yeah I mean I used to say , if I could get up , go get my diet coke , like before dawn , drive around for about 30 minutes with the stereo really loud , drinking my Diet Coke , you could throw anything at me that day .

Mix with a little Diet Coke . Right , yeah , a little mix , yeah , so , um , what advice do you ladies have for other people who are married to people like eric and myself ?

well , I think you need to tell your perspective , because she and I are completely wired different , so it's not like it has to be one type of personality to go with it .

Yeah , I mean I think you know , and I had told Eric this that even to this day , even seeing everything come full circle and the success that he has and all that you know in my world and in my wiring , in my world and in my wiring , if I knew that , okay , I could wake up and go to work every day and this is how much I would make and I'd have a

It's okay , we checked , floated right through that .

Yes , and I did not know , and I did not know .

Didn't tell her .

After the fact I mean I lost my shit . I mean you know , and it was a necessary evil , and I had no idea the extent of financial stress that and I guess , and for him he was used to living in that world , so it didn't even really faze him . But when I found out about it , you know , I felt terrible , I felt bad .

I feel guilty for like using that instead of working . Yeah , yeah .

And because , in my mind , I'd rather just work every day and be able to contribute and not put a burden on someone else .

um , from that perspective , it's a good point , although we'd take you down .

If we went down , everything would go well , I mean , that was actually talking about the blended family thing honestly , they could get a divorce pretty quickly and it wouldn't take her down yeah , I mean , when we got together , I mean , like it was , I was very adamant on keeping her out of all these things that I was , you know , involved in , because it could

Well , at least she didn't know until it was finished .

Right . Yeah , well , she needed to focus right .

And again in all comfortable circle . I mean tremendously thankful . But , in hindsight , if I had known I wouldn't have taken that gift , I guess yeah .

Well , you know , sonia and I have much different situation . I mean , we worked together long before we married and so we're used to working together and basically we pretty much do everything together , and she knows every single thing about our financial and business situations , which we both talk about constantly . I mean , it's the truth , isn't it ?

Yeah , but actually he knows . I mean , I know the picture of our personal stuff , but he pretty much does it and I'm good with that . Yeah , after all those companies and having to deal with all that , I don't want to deal with it . Yeah , I don't want to . And but the one thing , the one key thing you kept saying is you had something of your own .

I never left you out in the cold , though , honey .

I don't allow that .

You leave me in the cold at night , however , with the temperature set on 63 .

Oh , okay , I thought you said off emotionally or something . No no no , no , that's me Okay .

I just shut off like she likes it . So damn cold really . I'm sleeping in flannel jammies , with long sleeve t-shirts and a long sleeve top , I kid you not .

And then I've got like double blankets on my and I've got , you know the sheet , the cotton waffle blanket and then a cotton bedspread that's it and he gets over there next to me and the problem is I always wanted a hot light and I finally got yeah , I think you wanted a different kind of hot , but then he would wake me up because I would get so hot .

It's a little bit much information .

I mean you brought it up . You brought it up .

I mean , mark , we prep for this podcast , okay yeah , and we discuss about how we're going to behave in this podcast together and I mean you just kind of remember no cans being open , okay Okay , I mean thank you , you started podcast together and I mean you just kind of remember no cans being open , okay , okay , I mean , thank you , you started that off on .

Uh , he listened , he read us all the rules so so um having your own thing , though is is important to maintain your identity , or your self-esteem in this process yes , the entity .

Yeah , it really is identity and self-esteem , because at times in my first marriage I made the lion's share of the money yeah so now ?

then I immediately went to being a dependent , yeah , and then a pandemic hit , so I'm a dependent stuck in a house I don't view you as a dependent at all , though I always viewed you as a , and so you're , like my other half a brain . Yeah , so it's codependent .

But so I never really thought of it or think of you that way ever , because I rely on you so much for your intel and your insight . Oh , you guys , he does . But then , when he doesn't want it , he will not bring up the subject , he will not let me read something , or he'll yeah , he'll send it to me and I go did you already send it out ?

And send it out . He goes yeah , I'm like , why give it to me at that point ? Yeah , I think a lot . I think I I'm going to switch the subject for a minute .

I think that's bad .

I mean , a lot of small businesses have that problem where the know this , the spouse gets confused about sort of what their role is , and then sometimes the the company's a two-headed monster . If they both yeah , get it .

Yeah , people don't know who to go to for an answer and the guy because you know you need somebody that's you know , leading the company and you bring somebody else in .

Well , when we used to work together , I would just say to him , when I was so frustrated or so stressed out , I'd say just give me a list of my job title , I mean my job duties . And he would say , no , I don't want you in a box .

Yeah , I hate your descriptions .

Yeah , but now Despise them . If you're both working in it , you need to have very clear descriptions .

That is true . Yeah , you don't want to be tripping over each other . Try to do the same job .

Yeah , the problem is some of ours overlap , and that's where we would get .

Well , in our construction and development design build company , we both like design , yeah . So at first I think we had the butt heads a little bit over there . I mean , I used to do it all myself , but eventually I figured out that she's really good at it and I just said okay , now it's yours , you do what you want .

Eventually , I learned forgiveness versus permission .

She hates it when people say that about her . However , oh , but for better to beg for forgiveness than permission after you tell them to do something . Are you living ? See you ?

He said I okay , mind you , my name is on his paycheck right every Friday . He said I don't have to listen to her . I just asked for forgiveness later . I just apologized later , that's , and you know , a bunch of some of the staff came and told me that they were all telling me the same thing and I was like yeah , well , that's a different .

I mean , that's a different yeah yeah yeah , I think of the context of of guy .

just yeah , this guy , truly , we're going nowhere near his name , but he just has no respect for females . Yeah , that's disrespectful . But I remember one time I asked all the guys , like the trim carpenter and all of them I said how long would it take you to do this ? What's the material cost , everything ? Mark was leaving town . I called a guy .

Yeah , that was not

We kept arguing about it and I finally looked at him and I said you're not going to change my mind . We're going to have to agree to disagree . He looked at me like he had never heard that phrase before .

No , I need to win . Yeah , right , I want to win the argument and I don't want to just win it . I want her to say yes .

He would say you're right percent and I just go . No , I'm gonna agree to disagree yeah , well , so let's go .

How about , like , we talked a little about financial strain , strain , right ? What about like uh , I mean , there's a few other ones too that I think I was about yes time .

I don't do it very often , but every now and then I'm sick of playing a game on my phone and I want to put it down yeah , and get engaged , be attentive , yeah , be a present ?

yeah , no question , I think all of us could have . You know that we get distracted by that stuff .

We're not paying attention to the person , but you can't expect that person to be like the person who goes to the job , leaves it at five , like you can't expect that much . You just have to choose your battles and say yeah well , you know , because you've been there yourself .

Get to break in there .

Yeah , and I think sometimes if somebody doesn't , the spouse doesn't have something else . That's yeah , that's more difficult .

Yeah , I mean , I agree , I think that in the beginning again especially just because from my previous relationships , I mean , we're other military , so just operated from a different perspective and the interesting thing about the being in an entrepreneurial world is that your job isn't just at the job , it's the , it's the social hour here , it's this social event , it's

we don't think of a life-work balance , right , right , work-life integration , integration , right and everything's . And that's how we manage , how you manage and I manage , because it's all just one big pile of spaghetti , right , but I mean . But I'm now a little bit more conscious about thinking about how maybe y'all

She made a very good point when you're talking about integrating . Um , maybe the deal is you are home for dinner four nights a week out of seven . You may go back to work , yeah , but everybody , because that's what I used to do I used to go home , eat dinner . I didn't cook , so you know it's ready for me there , um , and then I'd go back .

But they're , you know they're , if you know we still have our thursday night date night tradition yes , we always have thursday night date night . That's good . Yeah , that's good .

Last night we ran to a restaurant , weren't there very long and then piled up in the bed and binge watched .

Yeah , Suits . She said she likes Lee Law .

Oh my God , I love that show . It's a serious show .

Well , I think that that's important too . I mean , I think that's good advice for any other spouses that are out there , because I mean , if you are thinking about being newly married or or being , or dating somebody that is an entrepreneur , and how do you make sure to settle that time ?

You're not quite as responsive as you used to be sometimes .

No , it's true , I've noticed , so I take that as a sign of your success . Oh , thanks , mark , you're not actually quite as responsive Wow , okay , well , think about it . You go out and mow the lawn .

That's true .

No , I do . You take more structured breaks , right ? Yeah , that's definitely something that probably Sonia has helped you get into . That's valuable .

Sonia has helped me with everything . Yeah , she really has .

I remember one thing he used to give me a really hard time about . Again , I got up really early and if I went to the office you could get more done between 5 and 8 than 8 and 5 .

Sure .

And he would always stay up late and go . I don't know why you get up that early . Now . He is out of the bed long before me and he'd just look at me and go . You know you could get so much done Like I'd never known that . Yeah , I was like really Can you ?

Is there a problem ?

with us stealing y'all's ideas and claiming them as our own ? And yeah , no , I mean whatever .

It's just you know I'm sure I've never done that to you , right ?

no , no , no but you know , if it's something you want , badly enough , if you put it out there and they're like no , and they circle back around like it's their idea , call it .

Yeah , you're getting it , whatever it was exactly , yeah , yeah , and I think too . I think , because being on the other side of it , like the , the lifestyle that y'all would try to sustain up to up to that point it's , it's not sustainable for a long term .

And so you know , and obviously in my line of work , like you , I see that on a daily yeah , you see people who are at the end , are they're ? Sitting by somebody , yeah , and they're having their regrets . Yeah , no , you're right , I'm sure that it's not enough this is impact .

I , uh , you know my yeah clients that are gonna be driving we will make sure that mark comes to your bedside , thank you well , if not bad , at least your funeral .

Yeah .

So don't worry about that . Or the reading of the will you know you'll do it . So , yeah , you know well , eric's a little younger than me and he's still into that mode .

I mean , when I started working with Mark , it was all these things that you just said .

And it kept growing .

And it kept growing . And then when y'all got married and like I mean obviously , we got married . Obviously Sonia had I'll go grab , I'll get something , but obviously , um , I'll go grab , I'll get , I'll get something . But obviously sonia had an impact on yeah , on you recognizing way that this is , this has taken everything from you . How did that go ?

one way it started . I can I . I specifically remember this . He gets mad because of my memory and I go . I remember things that impact me . Yeah , and I went to one of our bankers . We had like 16 condos they were separate but and I went to the banker and I said they're all on one note .

Well , she said the quality of the vehicles parked in our condos was deteriorating , which meant that our tenant quality was deteriorating , which meant that we should get rid of them .

Actually pretty good logic . That's what I did say , because they were building all this new student housing .

But how like as a spouse , though , like how challenging was that to kind of I mean like to break through the entrepreneurial stubbornness .

I will tell you because you know , I worked with him for years too .

Yeah , and controlled the purse strings .

Yeah , that spouse has to get to that point . Strengths yeah , that spouse has to get to that point . You're not going to say one thing to them . And then they , like mark , just agree with me .

That Just don't leave me hanging on bumps , man . I mean I'm on video . It would be terrible .

Yeah , you can't hang him out to dry , but so , honestly , I enlisted his brother too , who is older than he . Well , everybody's older than he is in his family . He's a baby older than he . Well , everybody's older than he is his family . He's a baby , but in his brother I'm just like he's . This stuff has got to be simplified .

Yeah , you're not there yet no , keep going , baby thanks bro okay , just don't forget , I was what's your , what's your ? I was 46 when I first sold my business and I changed my life , but then I ended up repeating a lot of the same mistakes . Yeah , so does that ? I mean came ?

back into it . Yeah , but here's the deal . Keep going forward . Take a chunk of cash , stick it over an account and say this is your security blanket right don't , if you could afford to do that .

Yeah , yeah , it is .

Yeah , I mean well , the security blanket is relative to the people what are you , you thinking ?

Well , I mean , we already know .

I mean again . I've already said that you know in the beginning of all of this that I mean call me Negatron and Buzzkill . You know .

Negatron , yeah , negatron , I got her . Yeah , negatron , negasaurus , negasaurus , negative Nancy . For me it's actually to your point like I'll come to Tara like with ideas , and if she's , I mean , I always like listen to him , because sure because , I mean , it actually grounds me .

I think there's a lot of stupid things I would have done no , well , yeah and it might be still but um , I I think I think women in general tend to be a little bit more skeptical and critical and thinking yeah , I mean , and just with all of that , you know it always , um , you know , I mean it's such a like you could go into so much detail about it ,

do you like ? When is enough enough ? You know , yeah , we all .

Yes , I understand that completely yeah , and you know it's like . I mean , we're not gonna , we're not gonna use all of this in the course of one lifetime and and well .

So I think that one thing , too , that I've noticed with you is like talk about burning the candles at both ends , which I appreciate , although at first it doesn't seem like it's a loving comment to slow down or to rest or to just take it easy .

What Forty years ? Why A rich widow ?

Like that's not my goal in life , you know ? Yeah , I mean .

I think , though , tara I mean I'm not trying to interrupt you , I'm sorry You're- fine , you broke a rule .

You say that where he's going with this .

And I'm chiming in after no , I was going

No .

These things that we do , we do them just because we do them . It's part of a way of life and it keeps us energized and thinking and satisfied in certain ways , and it's fun . It's fun , it's exciting , it's fun . It's fun , it's exciting , it's adrenaline , it's exciting , the money and all that .

No 100% .

Sure , I mean , I agree with that .

You agree with that . You've invested . You've invested . Sometimes it's helping the other person , yeah , and you know it's like bringing somebody up younger than you . It's . You know it's passing the torch , it's that's very gratifying .

Yeah , superman , yeah , yeah , you can do still , you still got to do it , you still got to do superman , yeah , superman , yeah , yeah , you can do anything well , but I think I mean and I mean he's mentioned this that I think it's interesting , on the other perspective , to look back and , like you've mentioned before , you know , like all the years where you've

No , no I mean , but it's truth , it's true .

You know he laughs at me because I'm like my goal is , you know , and rocking chairs , and we're old and gray , but there are steps that you're going to take and choices you're going to make throughout your life that will or won't get us there . You know ?

Yeah , we're on our rocking chairs on our front porch . Actually Right now we're living a life , okay .

They don't look like rocking chairs . That's how I gauge what chair that we can have outside . I go I've got to be able to rock like a crazy person . But the other thing I was going to say that I think a lot of young couples don't do is first recognize if you're the entrepreneurial type and talk about it before you get married .

Oh , absolutely .

Because it splits up more companies , it crashes more .

Oh , no question about it .

Don't even get married , just shack up , I mean until you're ready . You both know .

So go into that a little bit more . I don't really understand .

I think that my watch just told me I need to stand up . That's awful , but I think that a whole lot of people can I name names of people who've been on your shows ? Whatever you want , omar .

Okay .

You know he had one girl . I think it was Omar or it was . Another one of your students had a girlfriend who just didn't get , but they had been together a couple of years . Okay , you got to move on . Right , it's not going to work out , they're not going to get it , yeah yeah . Because it's not going to get better once you get married .

So I want to hang out there for a second . Okay , so I want to hang out there for a second .

I think this goes to what he said . Men and women see it differently , and the other fact was that burden was on my shoulders . He was in a different company working .

But how did y'all get to the point where I mean , or was there a point to where you start kind of understanding more about what's going on in the heads of your entrepreneurial spouse , like I mean , where is it that you're ? You know where are some of the territories , the boundary lines ? Like I mean , and how do you basically advise ?

about . You need to ask her that because I've been able to predict this for a very long time and it's because my wiring is more similar .

Okay .

I think , for sure in a like , I think , having a being secure in yourself and as the individual . So you know just I mean male , female that having your own sense of security and identity , kind of like we talked about earlier and that allows you to be honest .

And I think that people really and it may be left up to the entrepreneur side of it to say can you live this life with me Because you can't change me once we go over the threshold .

That's true , yeah .

I always say I think people should spend as much time as much money on pre-marriage counseling as they do on their wedding , and it would Percent yeah I . Um , I always say I think people should spend as much time as much money on pre-marriage counseling as they do on their wedding , and it would , yeah .

But our wedding costs like $67 or whatever , whatever the wedding license or marriage license , but there were no refunds , it said on the side .

I kid you not , oh man , they said no refunds , fair enough , I'm cracking up with a woman . I said you mean people ask for refunds Washington County .

She's like yeah .

No , at first she didn't . She was all business until it was over , Until , you know , we filled out the paperwork and she did it and she said , yeah , they really do . I was like , oh my God .

He asked they really do ? I was like , oh my god , yes , for a refund on that , that's great , but I changed my mind .

Yeah , I want my money back . But I mean , you know , a lot of churches do pre-marriage counseling and and that's great , but but that's not the beat all end all . Yeah , and in my first marriage we did it through the church , but it was nothing religious . Yeah , well , there were parts of it , but you had to do this test and it was 150 questions .

That's interesting . I remember when we were , yeah , 20 years later , that's interesting .

So I just I think that's really important . I think some people don't want to see it or they're like , oh , it'll be fine . No , marriage is hard .

No , they're totally . It's a relationship yeah .

You add like you call the extramarital affair or I call like the other wife or the other husband . It gets really hard if you don't know your really grounded starting point Interesting .

You know , I think that one thing I was thinking about too is the burden sometimes that maybe we might carry and bring home , like I mean , you know , I know there's been many a times when I mean like some big things happen , you know , and you got a lot on the line with the business , and I don't know like personally , like if big things happen , you know

what's been y'all's experience and something you have to ask them yeah one time they may just want you to be quiet so they can think another time they want to bounce something off of you . I mean , you just have to ask and then respect their response and simple even if they don't know what they're saying .

Yeah right , they don't know what they're saying .

Yeah , I mean , I think that's kind of been the same in our situation too . I mean there are some times that you just need more time to

it's a great day .

Call me that he lives's kind of the world that he lives in .

I'll be excited for you Meet each other there .

Yeah , yeah , that won't be me .

Yes , and you could have a terrible day . Something bad happened , but you've been sitting there thinking about it , You've been staying in the zone and by the time you walk in the front door you're like I got it , I know how to fix this and so , and it goes like that .

Yeah , that's , true , and I think that definitely comes with time and getting to know your partner , because I mean in the beginning , early in relationship , you know , and not having a situation where you've worked for a long time .

Let me , can I ask another question ? So I think this is a common issue that a lot of spouses of entrepreneurs have to confront . I don't know if it's been the case for you , Eric , with the kind of businesses that you had or anything , but in our case , like we had to borrow just millions and millions of dollars .

If they're wired differently . If they're not wired differently , they get .

Did you ever have to go through that ?

No , I think we were fortunate in that aspect that I feel like through the ups and downs , I mean again , in the beginning we really had separate incomes , like the house , I mean kept it separate too . It was in my name , I had bought the house and you know these bigger and again with his company too .

It's the bottom line yeah so .

So now we signed some of that stuff and he'll tell me and I'm like okay yeah , but I do think that's a problem for a lot of people there .

You know , if they're not from that world .

Well , I could imagine , like you know , coming home and being like hey , I'm about to take on this large amount of debt . I need you to co-sign with me on this . And you're not ingrained or involved in business . You're over working this , you know .

You're working a stable job or you're just a house spouse , yeah and I'm asking you to take on significant risk .

No , that would be sketchy , I don't know that I think that I don't know that I could have done that back in .

yeah , there's definitely a timing aspect to that well , I mean , like , how would you have felt if you knew that at one point in one of the companies we were , I was cutting checks or draft for 86,000 a month just for principal and interest . That didn't include payroll .

Yeah , so I , you know , I think that's a , that's like , that's the little dark underbelly that that people don't understand about being at this level of of success per se .

you know well , that had to do with me wanting to sell stuff , because if something went down and it didn't , we got rid of everything , you know . But I do , yeah , with that level of stress I had back then I had one drink a night , but it's a mixed drink , so depending on that day how strong that drink was . Yeah .

It was a better day than the later drinks . At our peak we had about $19 or $20 million worth of total debt . That's a lot of debt .

Yeah .

That's a lot of debt , yeah , and it's hard .

lot of debt , yeah , and I think it's it's hard you know , and I thought it's why group it was made , my head hurt when it was 2.5 million or yeah , that's what it was .

What lawsuit things from the former owner . Oh , we got to keep the ownership . What lawsuit things .

From the former owners .

Oh okay , that's good . Don't give people the wrong idea . I'm sorry .

Digging the former owners out of the ditch .

Yeah , yeah . So we started out this podcast and you both said- I'm not even sure where it went . Well , yeah , it goes wherever it needs to go . Okay , and you both sit sure where it went . Well , yeah , it goes wherever it needs to go . Okay , and y'all done a great job taking it to where we're at .

and yeah , I mean , I've defined mine before .

OK .

You know I'm wired more like the two of you than I am her , but I don't want to be out front . I don't . I could get up and speak in front of people if I was talking about something completely separate from me , but I don't want to get up . I'm just not that person . Facebook there are a ton of pictures on me .

But I'll tell you but yeah , she doesn't , she's good about that . I I I know and I would keep him out .

For a very good reason when he walks in he sees every detail that if you go in there all the time you don't see him anymore , and so he would walk in and go . You got to get that done and he would point out all these little details and then I can make a clean list and we're good . And then you know at the other company I didn't want it .

True , yeah , I mean same . Again it goes back to wiring . People have to understand their own wiring . True , yeah , I mean same , I don't it is . I mean I've I've done it before in different capacities . I mean I remember when I was in the military I did a lot of out front stuff , um , and it just doesn't have a lot of appeal for me .

Makes me insanely uncomfortable , like red rash .

And I think I mean he and I have talked . I think again and I think I like it better

Yeah , so you know .

I think that that's a good point . Well , both those points are interesting me because what you said about being extremely uncomfortable , like , I immediately like in relation with you , like I don't understand that like and I can respect that because I don't want to be put in extremely uncomfortable positions .

Yeah , he thought I wanted to yeah , yeah , yeah for sure , really I don't know for sure , be that , but you should be out front no , I shouldn't .

I mean , I my mouth , but you know guys , you two , as you said , you have to be secure with yourself . Okay , you guys have enough inner security that you're not competing with us on daily basis . I was married to somebody before who , I think , greatly resented any attention I got that she didn't get , and she saw herself competing with me .

And you know , change the world , you just give yourself a sense of accomplishment , absolutely .

So that's the second part I was going to say because , like , you're talking about the individual , that makes a lot of sense to me , especially with what you know you do specifically . But you know , in my brain it is about changing the world and the community .

Advantage though , because then you know , I think , over time , I mean you know we joke about , about it , but I've gotten better at this stuff . You know because , because it's understanding again that this is your job too , and so you know , in those situations , like we asked at the beginning of this , you know what's the rules .

Like I will go to the social hour at six and I'll be there from six to seven thirty . Then Tara will show up for the event , right , but I need to be there earlier . I want to be there earlier , she doesn't . It's like that's okay , you know , I don't mind .

Yeah , for sure .

I think you know . I guess the one thing that concerns me is it seems like you guys have to do so much accommodation . For us it's always like well what you .

Several times you have said I've gotten better and I was like when are you getting better , eric ?

yeah , okay , you know it . Yeah , it's not all . It's not all you , you guys adjusting .

I mean , that's the life of a narcissist , yeah I mean don't , don't be upset with me , because I'm a narcissist certainly due to being an entrepreneur no , okay , so we're just we're not just not highlighting the things like okay , so things I've gotten better about absolutely it's not just like I want to hear about this .

I mean like oh no , he would do that exercise regimens of one sort a week and a half and then six months later , I do it for two days .

Well , that's still consistent . He does it , though . So I understand the value of sleep now . I've learned that . I've now understood the value of coming

Thank you .

Yeah , I'm glad you cleared that up . I didn't want to publish this podcast and everybody's like Eric's the biggest ass he ever lived .

He's just a big silverback Narcissist . Narcissist . Okay , We've changed it . I have a question , though , and I'm not sure you were talking about Okay , when you said the value of coming home or being in your house . When did that begin to shift for you ? Now ? Years , Tell me which years that began to shift .

I would say it's been probably just the last 18 months , two years .

I'm just going to add something here . I think COVID changed people . I was an on-the-go person . I could not sit still at home . Now we have to go . That's true .

I think part of it is just having a decent relationship and a home you feel comfortable in . That is , when you don't have that , you just get in the habit of just you , just yeah , you're just gonna run because you don't really want to be there . It's an obligation and that's it , yeah that's .

I mean I think you know , when we were talking about bringing this podcast together , right , I mean it was like from mine and your perspective , you know , is about kind of entrepreneurship , but in reality this is a lot about just straight up life and relationships . Right , yeah , it's separated from the business . That's the point .

Business is full of relationships too .

Totally , totally , and what we do as entrepreneurs is affecting the family , the livelihood , and I don't think there's been times I've been very tunnel vision about that . To me they truly are separate , but I've learned that that's not the case , because I've gotten better . Yeah , fyi , I've improved , I have improved .

I believe that I know you . You're constantly learning , improving , getting better all the time . Thanks , Mark . That's why you're so successful People out in podcast lands .

I adore Eric , even if I give him a hard time .

Thank you , I do too . I adore him , so do I this isn't Eric , Adoration .

Her response would be like I'm not married to you , Adoration .

But I do want to point one thing out . Okay , you said maybe 18 months or two years ago . What happened 18 months or two years ago ? Yeah , no shit certain amount okay , I see you , you had a transaction . Oh yeah , yeah , that is that it .

It takes a certain amount of stress oh , totally , yeah , hr and legal and all that .

I mean that's it Well , and just having some , some , some money , I mean to where you're not just , it's not this , this feast or famine , you know existence that you're trying to beat out , I mean it does make a difference , I'll tell you what the biggest thing on that whole deal was is starting to be able to have some focus in the in the work .

Sure , every day Right , every day right .

Instead of you having to think all the work .

Oh , dude , like everything , yeah , for 20 years it was just like .

Now , having done that the first time 20 years ago myself , the only thing I would just caution you about is that I was , truthfully , I never made more money than I did when I did one thing , and I did it really well . I'm just going to point that out . I don't think I've ever had the same degree of success in other things that I did Now .

So so are you saying that you should focus on one ?

no , I I , I'm , I'm not . I'm just saying that there's trade-offs okay , but but what ?

but your example like that you're happier by focusing on one . No , I'm happier by doing lots of things . Okay , yeah , yeah , yeah .

Yeah , I'm just saying it's not necessarily the way to maximize your financial gain .

No , no , no true . And I think my point was is like in that particular business , and plus it was a growing . I mean this is like becoming this organism .

Well , sure , that's huge , and growing .

You've got hundreds of employees at this point , yeah , and just having to think about every single strategy of every department that are coming with a lot of demands , and that was a little bit and I could have an actual role within the company versus trying to at least Put out fires all the time .

that's when you can just sort of start living and enjoying life , or you know , that's a big part of the whole entrepreneurship thing is hopefully you can build up and have an exit , successful liquidity event and exit and do other things . That's what all entrepreneurs really want to do . They just want to do other things .

Yeah .

But what are some positives about being a marriage and entrepreneur ?

You don't get bored marriage and entrepreneur you don't get bored um .

This is where I'm gonna look terrible .

No , you don't wait , we'll edit out the pause , maybe it's stretched out here bright and you , you now understand it's definitely , I think okay .

So there's a lot of flexibility with it , weirdly enough , even though it can be all consuming and all encompassing . You know , I'm very structured and I come from a world where , when you're at work , you're in this building from this time to this time .

That's true . Well , I mean that's not a small thing , because I mean especially you know you being a single mom and you having to work and pulling 12 hour shifts three days back to back , I mean like you basically have to plan so much in advance and to be able to do that , yeah , and you can't .

You always got Bennett , yeah , yeah and still . Well , then you bring her to the office . After you said she just got sick in your truck , I'm like eric really can , can you take her home please ?

how to get them working . I was like yeah , put it in your office .

But no , the flexibility that you have is a huge thing yeah it . You know you may work a lot of hours , but at least you can leave if you have to .

Yeah , take a meeting you know when you're on vacation can take a meeting you know when you're on vacation . You can take a meeting you know at this point , or you can stop and take a meeting in your vehicle .

And then Zoom has made that a whole lot better .

Yeah , everybody can . It's natural to call a virtual meeting now so it's good .

The question was what's good , though , about being married to an entrepreneur ?

I mean good though about being married to an entrepreneur . I mean it's , I won't say it's weird , I mean eric knows me . I mean I've still said that I I would not want to be in in this role . I like I don't have it in me to be in this role . I wouldn't .

That's a very good point . Yeah , it's really yeah .

And that's the thing too , especially , as you know , not being wired that way and being the spouse of someone that that you love so much , and seeing that you're just like I don't know , that I would , you know , I would venture down , that you know , although it is absolutely worked out and I'm so happy and he's so deserving of all of it .

Especially being being a caretaker . She's a caretaker , yeah , and watching that , you know . I mean because there's yeah , there's been a lot of times I mean like ambiguity , so this is a good .

I used to get up , wake up in the middle of the night go to the office at like 5.30, . Go back home , shower up , take soap to school .

So the spouse of that though how do you feel about it ? Well , she worries about it .

I can go to sleep .

No , sonia , he says he's having a hard time going to sleep . It takes him like 30 seconds .

Yeah instead of 10 . Yeah , so what's good ? I want to hear your answer to this question because I want to come back to something Tara said . But what's ?

good about being married to an entrepreneur .

I can't answer that the same way she can , well , you don't have to answer it the same way she can Well , don't you ?

don't have to answer it the same way . You don't get bored . There's always something new that you're going to do and you don't get stuck in a box .

It doesn't become mundane .

I mean I remember telling him one time years ago when I was really chained to the desk and I mean it was early morning until late at night I said I feel like a caged animal , that you know .

Whoa , I can see it in your face Reliving it .

I am , but I did . I felt like I was just I was going to start breaking the steel because I was just stuck in this , you know the steel , because I was just stuck in this , you know . And I remember we were at a inked 500 5,000 convention and they were like , oh yeah , don't spend your days putting out fires .

That's it okay , that's the only good thing , but no , that's a big thing . Though that bored . Well , give us this .

yeah , that was actually well , that the point is . If I went in , I didn't remember if I went in er Eric's office and I said , hey , I just got back to the doctor , they said I have the flu but might as well come back to work because I've already been here for a week with it .

Yeah .

Okay , so he's a little paranoid about being sick . No , a hypochondria .

That's another symptom of being a narcissist .

You know he's married to you . I mean what you do .

I mean I don't really go to her for much caregiving on that .

You're going to get nada , she doesn't .

She's like okay , you're fine .

No blood . Yeah , you're good , you're like these , yeah so . So I want to come back to something you said , though , because I think it was really interesting .

there and they can't really visualize that , and I think it creates a lot of stress for the people that work in these companies , don't you ?

oh yeah , totally that mentality and the entrepreneurial entrepreneurial mentality need to have a little bit of compassion for the other person , because we can't all be alike no , when we gotta have them all , yeah it takes .

They're all playing their part in this , in this grand I used to say one a um .

I want the accounting person to be the slow driving , you know yeah I want the finance person to fly up the highway if nobody's there . You know , I don't want the person who's going to just stay at the speed limit , regardless of the fact that it's sunday morning at 6 am and there's not a car on the road .

The only funny is like I mean I think that that's a good point , mark , because like from the I mean from the team's perspective like I've struggled really hard in the beginning , like I could literally in the beginning not understand why people did not care to the extent that I cared about it's not theirs , what else there's , yeah , and then I think that you

If , if you do the open book management and they always understand how this shifts it up , this shifts it down . And I used to tell Mark , if you're not honest with the employees , you're robbing them of trying to be part of the solution .

Yeah , yeah , I agree , it's essential . Okay , any last thoughts . We're running over time .

I have to tell the story .

Okay , tell the story . Okay , so Mark is out of town .

My office is here , mark's is here , eric's is here , mark's is here , eric's is here , and this woman calls me and she says , hey , I , I'm calling for so . And so her boss , who's an engineer , and said we wanted to sign up for this principal academy no no , it was a hot firm conference no , it wasn't hot firm , it was the award conference .

It was a big conference . It was a hot firm conference . No , it wasn't a hot firm , it was a big conference .

It was the M&A thing , I think , oh , m&a conference . And she goes . But I don't know if you know that I believe the phone number's wrong on the brochure . Printed brochure . Printed brochure , mailed out , printed . You can't pull anything back . And I said really , and and she goes , it's a sex library . And I said oh my god , thank you . Oh my god , yes .

That's pretty damn dissonant , though , oh no .

So Eric is hysterical . He calls up , he hangs it up and I had closed the door but it's all glass right there and he goes . I'm going to get fired , yeah .

And I was like no , you're not . No , you're not . I just remember one of the best telling anybody . I don't know , I don't know if you were there . I'm sorry , honey I always tell them stuff after it's yeah yeah yeah , yeah , a year after I don't know , I don't know if you were there when we did this , but we sent an email out that said insert .

Any last thoughts you want to share , tara ? Well , I think I was just thinking that hopefully this was helpful to show how different she and I are in the world of being married to an entrepreneur that the spouse doesn't have to necessarily look one certain way . I think it's a lot about just compromise and communication and understanding and trust .

It works well right yeah , and same thing .

You know , I mean your guys pairing works well , and so I think that's something too to kind of you know , just a good takeaway good , good point , good way to end up I'll just say a mutual respect right kind of exact same thing .

There has to be some explaining yeah because the the mental wiring is different yeah , yeah so there has to be . You know you got to spend some time to help the other person understand and vice versa , like it wasn't all you making her getting her to understand . Sure you had to understand where she was coming from yeah , so what she needed .

You don't subscribe to henry ford too's philosophy . You know what he was famous for saying ? Oh , he actually there's actually a biography on him with this title never complained and never explained no , I don't so that was what his motto was , and I really hope this is maybe helpful for somebody . I do too .

Yeah , and I think it'd be helpful for the entrepreneur too to like hey , man or lady , have an honest discussion . Yeah , have an honest discussion and look at your partner as a partner . They're not a . One thing she always told me is like when things would get kind of hot . You know , I'm not your enemy , exactly .

You know less of those all the time . I know that's the benefit of getting older . I mean truly .

They die off , off , they die off and you don't care as much Like if somebody does it you're like Competitors .

I talk with the competitors , it doesn't bother me .

Well , I mean because you used to .

No , I know , I wanted to bury them .

Yes , okay , but you start realizing , like it's A okay , it's good to have competitors . Yes , be a lot of times like you're really just more fearful than what a reality is , and it helps you to become better in your business too , and maybe they'll buy you .

so , yeah , don't bother you'll buy your potential , all

Y'all ladies were supposed to Business , Okay Well thanks everybody , We'll see you next week .

Thanks for tuning into this episode of Big Talk about Small Business . If you have any questions or ideas for upcoming shows , be sure to head over to our website wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show .