¶ The Struggles of Small Business Owners
okay , everyone , I'm back here with my partner in crime , aiden quinn , doppelganger eric howerton . How's it going this morning , eric ? Going fantastic , more good . Well , this is another episode of Big Talk about small business . It's going to be a good show this morning . I think we've got a lot to talk about . There's a lot going on . I'm super busy right now .
Everybody hates to hear that they don't give a shit how busy you are , but I am really busy . I'm with you , man . I don't feel like I'm doing a great job . I'm not one either , I . They don't give a shit how busy you are , but I am really busy . I'm with you , man . I don't feel like , are you doing a great job ?
I'm not one either , but it's like I really don't , it's .
This is actually a counseling session for me . It's okay , isn't it ? It's y'all gonna be okay I I don't know .
Okay , cool , I don't know . I I I'm just not as motivated as I usually am . I , I mean , I think I'm too happy .
You know that's a big deal getting comfortable it is . I mean , that was uh , uh , it's been one of my struggles in the last couple of years . After you know you , you exit out of a company and it's just this , this , you're like current hurt mentality . You know , just like , oh , you just chill or do this , you got , I mean and but I've actually I had a .
I fought against that pretty hard . I'm overcome , yeah , and I actually , you know the funny thing , you just you create crap to make sure that you can't get comfortable .
That's where that's the problem with people like us . Yeah , we just keep joining new things and taking on new problems and well we get excited like you meet somebody and they got , they got something going .
You're like , oh , hell , yeah , let's do that . Yeah , I know the next thing . You know you have about 20 meetings and that's like no , why am I doing this ?
is this I really need to do ?
that , my thing is just like so true , you know , the amount of information and the discussions and conversations and alignment is just really . I mean , that's the draining thing . I mean like , sometimes I feel like like I talk all day , every day , you know , and that can be a little bit exhausting . Did you get anything done , though ?
No , I don't think so , and I still have all the things that I'm supposed to be getting done and I feel like that too .
But then there's just like things like cleaning up my giant toolbox . I'd love to get that done , you know , but it's just never gonna happen . No , you know , I mean I just need , I need to do that , yeah , and just even driving my rv to the truck place to get it worked on was like oh god , I gotta drive the rv to their truck place .
I'm glad you experienced that too .
I'm like dude , some of the dumbest , smallest , stupid things I struggle so hard with . Okay , so I bought a Starlink , right , the mobile internet deal . I got sold on an email . That's a Starlink . It's actually a great deal , oh , I'm sure . But I got the mini kit thing where it's mobile . You got to figure out how to hook all that up .
Well , I bought it from this email . I had a discount because I was already a subscriber , whatever . So I get it in . I'm like I really did , I really need it . I mean , like I was like , well , this would be cool if I could be in my truck and have like really great internet , yeah , no matter where you are .
Yeah , yeah , but it wasn't conducive for what I needed once I got it . But I got it , set it all up and like okay . And then I like immediately repackaged it and I'm like shit , now I've got to send this damn thing back , right and so and then you procrastinate on that right Dude big time . So I , like , had submitted the return online .
I got that done and then it gave me my shipping label and literally for I mean , I promise you kid you not 10 full business days . I had that stupid Starlink riding shotgun in my truck . I'm there all the time . I hadn't printed up my label yet and I finally got it done yesterday . But I had to like , didn't it feel ? Good it felt great .
I was like I got something it's so true , I have so many things like that Like I got this setup that allows me to winterize my rv with a built-in compressor . Yeah , you've probably I mean you've had rvs . You know about painting . I hate winterizing . I will do anything to avoid it .
I hooked up 50 amp service at my house , but unfortunately and I can plug heaters galore in , but you still have your tanks , and your tanks aren't getting heated unless the central furnace is on in my unit . Yeah , but then that burns gas . Yeah , so now I'm gonna get this guy I'm trying to get this guy to convert my furnace to .
They have an electric add-on to your gas furnace so I can keep it plugged in then not winterize it . Then I can use it anytime . Meanwhile , though , I got this kit , I gotta install it . It's overly complex . Yes , I don't know when I'll ever get that done .
My wife bought me something for my car , that is , it converts it to Apple CarPlay , which it does not have currently . Yeah , and it's like ridiculously complex . Ok , it's like honey , I , you know , I read these reviews . It's like this . Yeah , it's like I accomplished it in eight hours . I'm like you think I , you know I read these reviews .
It's like this yeah , it's like I accomplished it in eight hours . I'm like you think I'm going to disassemble the dashboard on my Porsche for eight . To hook the rear camera up , you have to remove the rear bumper from the car . Okay , I'm not doing that . You're not going to . There's no way . No .
And it's like all this stuff and it just builds up . Yeah , you know , it's the dumbest thing . My wife's like the opposite of me , like she gets shit done so fast . Yeah , I'm just like , I just watch her , you know , I'm just like why do ?
you what's the time ? It's not like that she takes on a lot of stuff , she gets stuff done , but it's like she's got 10 things . Yeah , yeah , that she you know .
But I get jealous because , like she like hey , can you do this ? I'm like , yeah , like she , you know . But I get jealous because like she's like hey , can you do this ? I'm like , yeah , like she asked me , literally , like I mean , it's been again another 10 days . She's like , hey , send me your schedule . Oh yeah , I get that all the time .
Send me your , send me your schedule for , because we want to do a family vacation in like may june . She's like I just all you got , all you got to do is just send me your schedule , like send me a screenshot . I haven't done it , it's been 10 days .
The first thing Sonia said to me today was send me your schedule . You haven't done that and I'm like you didn't ask for it . She goes . Yes , I agreed , you weren't paying attention Same .
It's got like last week Same thing . One of my favorite stories it's your wife calling you say hey , you used my damn towel this morning .
I know I still can't believe that . That doesn't sound like . It's not like me . I mean , I think she made a mistake . Not only did I use it , but then I put it back in the same spot . I think I knew that I it doesn't make any sense . No , but yeah anyway , we got a lot of stuff that we got to do and it gets overwhelming .
Sometimes some of it seems trivial . Yeah , right .
But I do think that it's good for other folks that are entrepreneurs to kind of hear this banter because , like you can , like I felt like what's , is there something wrong with me , you know ? Am I missing a pill ? Is there a pill out there for somebody to help me ? Because I can't get this ?
Like , you asked me to schedule something and it's like the hardest thing for me to do , because all I do is do that every day on business . Sure , you know , it's like I don't want to , I don't want to look at another date in time and figure that out . It's just , you know .
But I mean , I think that it's just , it's just part of the part of the mix , man .
I mean there's just too much , too much flying at us , yeah , and the tendency is to overcommit , and if you're not , then you overcommit . Yeah , if you find yourself not overcommitted , you'll immediately go back into overcommitment mode , even if you don't need to . It's like . But this house down the street and we're redoing it and , like you know , it's like God .
I got to order the doors for that , I got to get Sonia to make the decision on the bathroom tile for the bathroom . Then I'm like , well , why am I doing this house ? What ? What is the point of this ? Well , why did I ? I've got him , yeah , what ? I'm down there like unscrewing blinds and stuff and throwing them in the dumpster , and that's
¶ Embracing Change in Business Evolution
what you're doing . Yeah , you know , with this time it's not the quote highest and best use of my time it's not at all , but it's got to get done .
It does Because sometimes it's harder to call people and depend on other people to get it done . You know .
It really is , but anyway . So we're busy , we've got a lot to do , we've got a lot of businesses , we've got a lot of talk about businesses . Yeah , yeah , and we're just like a lot of other small business owners and entrepreneurs .
True , I think we're pretty typical . I do too . I think that the key word here is like chaos , right , and they kind of like so I do actually have a little bit of a history lesson . Okay , hit me , yeah . So I mean , I don't have it very sourced out , although it is from the book American Entrepreneur , the same book that we've talked about before .
It's not the only book you've read by the way .
No , it's not .
You've read a lot of these books . I just want to point that out to our listeners .
I appreciate that . That's a good point , yeah , but it is the one that helped me discover who I am , right , right , right , because there's it's a book chock full of basically you know a little bit folks that are off the grid somehow .
Right , they just , you know , there's not like a career choice for it , yeah , but it was very founding and helped me understand . Oh , I might be an entrepreneur , yeah , when I was reading all these stories .
But what I like about reading this history is that we think that today's time , with technology , artificial intelligence , all this complexity that's going on , it might leave people feeling very vulnerable , don't know what decision to make and whatnot , but the history proves that we're not really living in a different time .
It's just a different mix of things that are impacting the chaos . Right , because if we rewind back in the early days of America , you know something that we take very for granted today is transportation . Like how do you get goods and products from , you know , New York city to Philadelphia ? Right , it's easy today , really . Yeah , a million options .
Yeah , yeah , you don't think about it , but at one point it was like the thing to figure out . Yeah , it's like how am I going to get that ? Yeah , it's like how do we go get more produce for all the people that are packed in New York City ? Because up to a certain point , everybody lived within 100 miles of each other . Because you couldn't .
Transportation getting to a rural area was not only difficult but very dangerous . Area was sure . Not only difficult , yeah , very dangerous , you know they were .
They would say like if you , you know , on a typical stagecoach ride on the old roads that they would build , yeah , like you would expect that your , your coach , would tip over at least one time or get robbed , or get you know or get like indians killing you .
You know somebody dies , you know I mean like there's , there was dangerous as hell right , and so they were . You know the chaos was they're building roads to get goods back and forth , you know .
And then there's obviously great better farmland , you know , around the great lakes area and you know and all the you know there's just better area areas to grow produce and so they're building these roads . But all that danger was there and it was extremely expensive and obviously before like freaking bulldozers and shit right .
Yeah , it's like about there's 10 000 guys to be out with pickaxe . That's right . Could you imagine ?
building a freaking road with like no power tools like that .
Yeah , no saws to cut jury stuff . No , just like these two guys on either end of some six-foot long thing . Yeah , then how do you get ?
the root ball out . Yeah , I mean , have you ever tried to get a root ball ? Oh man , I mean , like it's the hardest .
I have really good tree guys who have every kind of stump grinder you can imagine , so it's never a problem for me .
Yeah , but try to do it with your hand . Oh , week , you know , but anyway . So they came up , they found , you know , the . There was an industry , there was private investors and there was government trying to build these stagecoach roads right to transport . Well , that was starting to take off .
People's money was going in behind that right and a lot of investment . But then in came a competitive form of transportation for products and goods , which was building canals . Okay , you know , sure , and so you have all these folks stuck in the road building that thought that was going to go .
Well , then all of a sudden , canals come in and start competing and taking over . It's a lot easier . So , all those . But we can look at history and go , oh well , it's not a big deal , I mean , they just moved the canals . But actually it's not a big deal . I mean they just moved the canals .
But actually you got to remember , there was a lot of people that had a lot of money behind the roads , right , that lost everything now .
And so you had this massive , you know , paradigm shift of of this that destroyed an old business , yes , made it obsolete , and then comes this new one , but that one came with a lot of problems too , right , yeah , and so then railroads took that over right and dominated the canals , and so you had a lot of people that were building ships , you know , all these
side businesses , these economies , yeah , along the canals that are based on that , based on that entire thing . What livelihoods , families , I mean before health insurance , right , I mean it's like .
It's like old route 66 . They had gas stations and motels and everything and they thrived until they put the interstate in . That was gone right .
But we tend to , in today's time , think about what . You know we can't hurt those other businesses . Like how do we sustain folks that are like still doing things without AI or without a website ? Like you protect the small ones . You know you can't . You can't do that Because the reality is that the faster , better , cheaper option is always going to win .
Well , it's like the people who objected to like Walmart coming into small towns and providing groceries . It's like , well , it put the IGA out of business or whatever . Yeah , you went to the IGA . The produce was bad , the meat was bad . Okay , the prices were too high , things were out of stock . Yeah , walmart comes in .
Everything's better , it's all cheaper , it's all fresher . Okay , yes , the local store is going to go out . They deserve to go out of business . Unfortunately , store is going to go out . They deserve to go out of business . Unfortunately , we're not going to save them . That's , you know , as much as I'm sympathetic to the local business , push .
You know people support local business , or whatever . I'll support local business if they do something for me that somebody else doesn't do .
Well , they have to they have to evolve , they have to adapt . I mean , like the ever anybody , that's everybody , anybody that's in business .
You know , you have to understand that it is a and I think this is the point is like it's always been challenging , there's always been interruption , there's always changes , right , and it's always going to go to the faster , better , cheaper off . Yes , period , that's what wins every time , and right , and you can't win , you can't resist .
It's what should win , it's what should and it's what wins every time . Right , and you can't win , you can't resist it . It's what should win , it's what should and it's what does . Yeah , it's just freaking reality .
Yeah , so if you're right , you know the point is it's like if we're hearing about artificial intelligence , we're hearing about all these things , those things are becoming popular because they're making things faster , better , more accurate and cheaper , and so I hear a lot about resisting that change because we're trying to save certain roles which it's just not going to
happen . No , I understand you have to participate .
I'm not going to say you have to grow into it . Yeah , I don't know anything about AI . Thank God I'm so old that at some point I won't do anything other than just figure out where I'm going to eat at night , which still does preoccupy a lot of my time . Well , it will be able to take care of you , because neither my wife nor myself likes to cook .
She would ask me sometimes well , what are we doing for dinner tonight ? I'm like you tell me what are we doing for dinner tonight , because I don't feel like that . Now you could just ask AI , you know . But no , but you're right . I mean it's so true . I mean we get into the whole AI topic and how so many white-collar jobs are going to go away .
Blue-collar jobs are going to be the ones that pay the money .
They're safer right now . They are . They are safer right now . They are safer right now . But again , until there's AI , like I mean the lawn industry , right , the what ? The lawn industry ? It's chock full of a lot of blue-collar and laborers , right , sure , but they do have robotic mowers mapped out with GPS .
They can mow your yard with AI , you couldn't mow my yard .
You can . If there's too many obstacles , you can't but I promise you
¶ Embracing Change in Business Evolution
it will .
Somebody will actually get figured out better than anybody could ever do it yeah , no , I believe you , it's coming , it's happening , right ? so the thing that you have to do is you have to start being a student of that , embracing it , figuring out to survive it , to capitalize on it , because there's no alternative , there is no savior to it , right ?
And I think the point of the history to me is I rewind back and I'm like there was no savior back then . There's definitely not going to be today . Better , faster , cheaper always wins yes , and so that's the reality as an entrepreneur yes Period , you got to love entrepreneur . Yes Period , you gotta , you gotta , you gotta love it .
Yeah , and you've got to be willing to pay attention to what's going on and totally quote , pivot , as they like to say , or evolve , even change , yeah .
Um . According to grace , utilize leverage Right .
You know it's . You know it's . It's always been interesting to me . It's like business planning . You know , you try to set this business plan up and then you launch your business . Usually things don't go according to the plan Right , so you make changes in it . It's kind of like that . Let's like building a house . It's the same way .
Yeah , you can come up with the best plans in the world , but when you start building it and you're walking around in there and you go wait a minute Now , why is that like that ? Yeah , we could do something different here . Maybe we should push this out , maybe we should change this configuration . Whatever , you'll end up with a better product .
Yeah , that's the bottom line . I mean , you can't plan everything out . You do . Entrepreneurship in large part , to me , is based on how you respond to what is going on around you .
Absolutely 100 , you know 100 there are .
There's always the freaks , the outliers that don't change anything , that are successful businesses , but they're in the minority , very much so .
Like a lot of it comes down to nostalgia , historic or it's just a brand , there's an affinity to it . But one point is back to the local business . If I was a retail shop and I've always depended and I built my business back in the 80s , right or whatever , and that was the way things were going back then .
But incomes , e commerce , all this convenient stuff there are tools that you can research and employ that will make your business an omni channel convenient business so that you can grab more business . Leveraging somebody else's hard work with the technology yeah , you just have to invest in that , you have to be willing to embrace that .
Sure it in and most of the investment is learning , really that's .
It takes more time than it is money right . But if you're tired , you don't want to change and you want , and you know like it's just , I'm sorry I just went in this store with my wife last night before we went out to eat , and it's a new store and we're looking at it's women's clothing , you know , and they had nice stuff in there and everything .
The owner was in there and I was like , wow , I go . You really took the leap , didn't you ? She goes what do you mean ? I go , you bought all this inventory , okay , I mean you're , okay , you're looking around , going , holy shit , $200 sweaters , yeah , $300 coats . You bought all this stuff hoping somebody's going to find you and come along and buy it .
It's a pretty gutsy move if you think about it . I'm not sure how much . Very smart it is . Very gutsy man , you know . But I hope she makes it . But you know , you wonder , like , what are people thinking ? Are they ? Do they really think about ?
Like , what's going to drive somebody to come here instead of going on my internet and searching for exactly what I want , pushing a button and 24 hours later it lands on my doorstep , or even faster than that ? I tell you I bought something from Camping World the other day . I ordered it on a Sunday night .
On Monday morning it was delivered to my door without any postage or anything . In other words Camping World , grabbed it from the nearest Camping World location , which is in Rogers or Lowell , and somebody brought it to my house .
It called omni channel mart . Wow , that's exactly what the way by that . So , but that point is exactly what I've been on the free , you know the high horse about for years regarding walmart , like when they got the distribution system . If because of their stores , that is the nut to crack . How can they do that efficiently and effectively every single time ?
And I mean , yes , you can . My point was always been I could order a Coke Zero on Amazon and it'll get here in 24 hours , and everybody thinks that's so convenient , right , but what if I can order a Coke Zero and it gets here in five minutes ? I'm always going to choose five minutes . Same price , more convenience , that wins .
And that kind of goes back to this whole statement with the history too is like the faster , better , cheaper option always wins , and so that's what- .
That's the main advantage , you're right , that Walmart has over Amazon . Is that huge decentralized distribution network represented by stores For your everyday needs , man , yeah , that could be sources of whatever it is , and reduces the transportation time , yeah .
It's a hard thing to crack man . They've been working hard at it , but they're getting closer every day .
We've got this right over here . Less than half a mile from here is a drone station where they send stuff out by a drone . It's very cool . It is cool , but yeah , so there's a lot of change out there . You can embrace it or you cannot . Yep .
Just like the stagecoach builders , and you didn't want to get in the canal business . You may have to in the canal business , you may have you . You I mean yeah , because you didn't want to do it , because you did want to evolve . I mean there's clear indications Do canals . They can ship heavier goods , they can do it in a faster time and it's less dangerous .
The customer's going to want that right . It's just makes more sense . Customer's going to want that right . It just makes more sense . But you stay in the stagecoach business because you're just so adamant that you're going to continue to do well and it will shift on you . It will not . It will not happen . I hear you You've got to evolve .
I hear you let's grab a topic out of the head here . Let's do that before we get into our other topic today . This one's really long the Spa . Oh , consultants , I don't know Con-sultants .
It's a really long one , it just has that one word on there Con .
I think is a big part of it . Oh damn , consult it . Ooh , con , are they conning you or are they really doing ? Look , there's consultants that are very valuable , there's no question about it . Not everybody needs to have full-time people doing something that they're going to do once or not all the time or don't have that depth of expertise in .
But there's also a lot of consultants out there selling programs that are one size fits all programs and they make a business out of it , and I have a lot of respect for that . Yeah , yeah , what do you ?
think .
¶ Choosing Effective Business Consultants and Partners
I think that you know , on your con side , right , it comes down to an individual , because it's difficult to be a consultant without you genuinely caring about the outcome of who you're consulting with .
Sure , and if you're good , I mean yeah , yeah , but I mean like , but you're talking about the consultant is a human right , right , they have their own stuff going on . Yeah , but you're talking about the consultant is a human right , right , they have their own stuff going on .
It's hard to determine if that particular person genuinely cares about the outcome of my organization that I'm fully invested in , and I think it's a little bit more dangerous for small business owners . You know , like I have spent . There's been times I've spent too much money and have put myself in further . I had a problem I needed advice and consultancy with .
I invested in a consultant and I got nothing in return from it . I basically just got more questions and more problems than I did to begin with . It did not help me move any step closer to where I was trying to get to .
That is dangerous for a small business owner who has a tight budget , right , they can't afford to waste time or money , exactly Like it's all in the lining , yeah , and so you have to be very , very , very careful about that , and I think that the reality to it is is if does this consultant ?
Do they genuinely care about the outcome in your investment with them ? Because they're probably not going to appreciate it much because the consultant's business is based upon . I need to , I need to get paid for my time . You know , get in , get up , get in and get out , move on to the next one .
You just got to be really careful with that , especially when you have a consultancy agency that that's their entire business model and they seem to maybe have a secret that you don't have as a business owner to what you're trying to get to . And they come in and then you can I mean , like you can only get so much out of it unless you pay more money .
I think part of the problem too is like the big guys , they have experts that sell you the job but then when it comes to actually doing it , you get a lot of neophytes . You know what I mean ?
Yep , if you look at like the really big companies and how they do things same thing with , like accountants many times you know the partners are the one that sell the engagement and then after that you're stuck with like two year out of school people doing your audit . So that can be definitely be a problem .
You don't get the real experts , yeah , but then you have other types of consultants who basically tell business owners what they want to hear . Yeah , and that's dangerous too , mm-hmm , you know , because they feel like they can't lose the client , they can't alienate the client , yeah , they're afraid to be honest with them , yeah .
And I'll be honest too . I think , as an entrepreneur , there's really not ever a secret sauce I haven't learned . There isn't . The only really secret is the grind . Who works harder , who's working longer , who's working ?
faster and smarter . I mean people hate to hear that they do .
I hate to realize it myself . I have to check myself , dude , like we were talking at the very beginning of the show . Might be tired , got too much stuff going on , but what's the answer ? I'm working my ass off . Yeah , you know , I mean that's it , it is , and because I know that it becomes intimidating , but just got to do it , man .
I always , whenever anybody tells me they got a business that's not performing well and they're looking for whatever it is , I'm like dude , there's probably 20 things . Okay , it's not one thing that's gonna fix your problem . No , but that's that is , though .
Back on the topic of consultants , I like dealing with people who know something about not just the discipline that they provide . Let's say that's accounting or software development or whatever it is . I want people who understand my industry from a broader perspective than just their discipline expertise .
I think that's when you got the discipline expertise coupled with the industry knowledge . You can't just have discipline expertise and no industry knowledge and do the right job . Yeah , you know . Yeah , that is usually the distinguishing factor . Yep , on whether or not the consulting engagement is going to turn out well . Yep , very true , you know Very true .
It's going to turn out well . Yep , very true , you know very true . Um , they , they got to understand my industry on a broader level than just what they do . So , anyway , there are a lot of consultants out there . There's consultants for everything under the sun , and you know , talk with their references , um , check them out , check out their reviews .
Look in their references . Check them out , check out their reviews . Look in their eyes . Yeah , meet them face to face . You know , have some well-written contracts for what it is you expect them to do and hopefully it will turn out to be a positive relationship .
Take bite sizes out of it . Don't overcommit , don't get in some long engagement . Make sure there's action to it , like where's the ?
action at , I can tell you . I mean , I was a consultant for many years , most of my career , and I was always very conscious of being able to justify the benefits of what we'd done and try to quantify that . When I had clients that I worked with every year you know , on annual agreements I always wanted to summarize what we got done that year .
Go make a presentation to them face-to-face yeah , you know , because they don't always know either . Yeah , you know to to , because they don't always know either . You know . Sometimes they're so high up in the organization that they're unaware of how far down into the company you're going to fight .
You got to kind of fight to prove your value at all times as a consultant .
Continue to sell . Yeah , you have to . Yeah , it's true . So , anyway , today we were going to talk about business partners . Great Love that .
And you know what is a good business partner for a small business owner , slash entrepreneur , and what doesn't always work out so well , right , right , for business partners for , uh , business founders , entrepreneurs , small business owners . There really are some distinctions out there .
Um , you know , um , there was a chapter in my book I think it was something , to the effect of why everyone needs a Fred . Yeah , and it was talking about my original business partner at the company that's Zweig Group today .
It was Zweig White , and just how instrumental Fred White was in the success of our business , and I just think he's he presents a good example of what is a good formula for a business partner , and , in a nutshell , that is somebody who is not like you . They do , they know what you don't do . Well , and you know they're . They're totally different .
I don't think that's the tendency , though , of a lot of people . When they get a partner , they think , oh , we really get along . Great , we're just alike , we should be partners .
You know not good , two strategic visionary people is a bad , bad deal , man well , or two great sellers who don't know how to do long-term implementation .
Yeah , that's not no structure . Yeah , I mean , I I do think you got to be in line in terms of what your values are and like what you're supposed to do with the business . Sure , sure , yeah .
But I'm talking about skill sets . You got two big thinkers right . You got to have somebody that can organize the thinking and has the logic , and this is the emotional versus the logical side .
Yeah , and the implementation side . I mean , you know , I wouldn't want to take . On the other hand , I wouldn't want to , like , take anything away from a guy like Fred and go , well , here Fred could solve these these big problems that take a long time . That he wasn't visionary because he was visionary too .
I mean , I wouldn't take that away from him at all , but we just had different attributes . I was more external , he's more internal and and um , I think I think you know you probably experienced a lot of that too with . You know , and I know we've talked some about this on the show with , like js and your last business .
Yeah , you know he had certain skills that you didn't have , or orientations , um , and and it . You know , whatever my students or friends or people who reach out to me or talk about looking for a business partner who's going to provide more than money , yeah , I always encourage them to find somebody who's the exact opposite of them .
You know ? Yeah , for sure . I mean here's what I've found with my previous business partners was that they think about things . It's not necessarily differently , but they have a different priority on certain things . Yes , you know what I'm saying . Yeah , when you have priority on certain things , it gets done Right .
And I mean I could be walking around not thinking of anything like what JS or Alex were thinking , but they were prioritizing these things that were really crucial for the business .
You know , long-term , short-term didn't matter , but that being on the top of their mind and their driving force when they walk in the day , they're going to make sure that that gets done because it's important for the business .
I'm telling you , yeah , alex was more of a fred like yeah , relationship . I don't I didn't know js that well or what you guys did , other than what I've learned . Yeah , yeah , we're you know peripherally , but , alex , I , I know the guy and and I see exactly what you're talking about like he's going to be able to implement longer range things than you are .
Absolutely , you're going to be firefighting and you're going to be reacting and he's going to be methodically checking off A , b , c , d , e , f . Yeah , somebody needs to be doing that . Yeah , and we don't move ahead .
Well , and what I found was it's not just the big discussions or decisions as much which that's obviously very important , you know to have that but it's also the daily decisions , discussions , the one off conversations , even a dialogue with a , with an employee or whatever it might be , because it's just a totally different way of thinking .
I can have a meeting with an employee . It's just a totally different way of thinking . I can have a meeting with an employee and if it was just me and they thought like I did , we'd have this meeting and then we would alienate them or we would not give them any guidance or any further direction or whatever .
I'd be missing half of what that person , that employee , needs in order to perform and feel valuable . But I mean like I couldn't imagine the thousands of of of meetings or situations to where I left the room and Alex would carry on a secondary conversation , to where he would go into what his priority was , or vice versa .
We would have a meeting with employee , alex would be leading that or whatever , and I might have a secondary meeting with the employee to give them what was priority for me in the way that I felt and thought operated . That would help that person . Right , you know what I'm saying .
Yes , I get it totally .
I think you know another issue with these partners , though that , I think , is one that people don't talk about and and I guarantee you that the Alex's or I don't know who else you know you've ever worked with as a partner , or somebody like a Fred , I'm sure at times had to feel like , why does this other person get all the limelight ?
The one who's the external person , ie you or me ? Sure , even though Fred would never say that you know what I mean , or Alex would never say that . You wonder , like , is that demotivational to them that they don't get the limelight or the credit maybe that they should deserve ? Sometimes , I think founders and primary owners really need to think about that .
Yeah , because it can get . It demotivates us for sure , and you can't afford that . They're too critical to demotivate
¶ Navigating the Campaigner-Operator Dynamic
.
Well , I mean , I think that you , probably , the same way that I felt too , is , I mean , like we're actually concerned about that .
I mean you bring out that talk that shows that you have concern about it , right , because you know that it's like I knew , you knew it wasn't , I knew it wasn't me all the time well , oh , you mean you making everything happen ?
yeah , yeah , I knew , I knew that .
Oh , yeah , absolutely yeah , I certainly knew that and I think that the you know , the internal team probably knew that . But but it's what ? Externally clients or the market or media or whoever right yes , yes , and that always plagued me . I did not ever feel comfortable about that , extroverted in the campaign , in the market .
Yep , my entire specific purpose was to go and build that campaign to , to talk , to talk , to walk the walk , to be the person . I mean I can walk up in a crowd of folks and I can spot folks out , go talk to them . No problem like that was just . That's just easy . It's what I love to do . Yes , it was do . It was always the top thing in my head .
I was like who the hell am I going to meet today and how am I going to make this happen ? Where am I going to show up at ? It's an interesting thing because of that priority and that action . It puts you in limelight , yes , and you're actually trying to get that to drive the business of course , so it's not just an ego center .
No , no hell no , it's a it's a necessary thing . Yeah , the damn house I get it . Yeah , and your partner's supporting that because they need you to go do that . Yeah , because they don't , it's not the forefront in their mind . Yeah , it's not like the easy thing on their side .
Yeah , but once you get that attention , like you're kind of stuck in that because it's like I actually didn't want that .
There were many times like where I , would you know , try to to divert from the attention yes , oh , I , I always was conscious of that , but but you can't do it because , right , they don't care . Yeah , whoever the outsiders , the they don't care .
Yeah , the outsiders . The outsiders don't care . They want the person they're seeing or hearing or being referred to .
I'm telling you this is a really big problem . Yeah , if you think about it , it is . I mean because over time , those other people may be more critical to the business than we are . Okay , oh , I would .
I'll admit it .
I'll admit it right now . I can guarantee you we never would have been as successful if it was just me versus somebody like Fred who could make the progress on these longer-term initiatives . That were the things that really differentiated us A hundred percent . You know what I mean , yeah . But you know you do have to wonder , like after a while .
But you know you do have to wonder , like after a while , even though they would state that that's not their goal to be in the limelight at all because they're introverts , let's just say , okay , it's still got to wear on them at some point , like you know what I deserve more . And they do A hundred percent , they do , they did . I mean it's .
So it is incumbent upon us to try to promote them and make them feel like we recognize what they're doing Right , and I feel like that .
I , I , I here's . All I can say is that I know that I , I , I did attempt to do that . Yeah , you know , like , genuinely , I didn't like it . I didn't like any more attention than what I mean in all honesty , all what you needed to accomplish your goal , right , yeah , and . I didn't want , I mean even to the employees .
Like we can take it a step further . You know , as somebody that like where you're , it's it was the team that accomplished . It was always the team , it was always the other folks . Like I'll tell people all the time , like I'm just a professional coffee drinker man . Yeah , like I can just have coffee and talk some smack .
You know , I mean that's what I feel like , I mean that's what I enjoy doing . I mean it's , and just because I enjoy that it puts me in those positions . But it was I'm not the one doing the real , the real work or the real thinking behind it . You know there's certain things I contribute , but it's a very small fraction into the overall deal .
It's necessary , though the flip side of it is when people don't appreciate what you're doing , or it's the quote founder , lead person name on the door , whatever , and they don't appreciate what you're doing and , in fact , your business partner is leading a quiet revolution against you , that's yeah , because they don't think like you do . That's a problem too , though ?
Totally no , I mean . And there's those quiet revolutions exist out there .
They do I never . I fortunately didn't experience that , but I can absolutely like .
I think the the message here is I never got that from fred white , but I did get it from other people .
Yeah , okay , yeah partners , sure , yeah , no , I'll admit that too . There was other people within the organization that that was . That was as a divisiveness yes , exactly yeah .
they are promoting divisiveness and skepticism of whatever direction you're taking , and that isn't healthy either .
Oh God , no , it's devastating . It's devastating to everything . So I think the warning sign there is if you have a partner , you have to have somebody that is campaigning and you have to have somebody that is operating .
Yeah , that's a great way to look at it . I mean like you're competing and operating .
Amen Two highest pillars yeah , to bring a partnership together yeah , I love that , yeah .
And are you a campaigner or are you an operator ? Yeah , you need both .
You need both . But there's two sides of that too . The , the , the campaigner needs to stay the hell mostly out of the operational part . Like you can't come in , like you can't be out campaigning , run back in . I learned that lesson the hard way . I've become right back in , try to get , try to change shit , learn something up , blow it up .
Like you confuse everybody . I walk out of the room thinking I solved something , but what I did was I created like 10 more problems . Yes , yes , you know , and then I'd have to . I would have to be humble enough , yeah , by the , by the instruction or conversation with my operating partner to not do that .
And I have to recognize how devastating that was , I would be doing so much better job today than I did 20 or 30 years ago . Yeah , because I'm so much more conscious of this than I was 130 years ago . 100 , you know what I mean ? No , I'll do . I know I would do a better . At least I think I would . Yeah , I'd certainly be more tuned into that .
Well , you already do that .
You know , you already do that . I see that . When you know , do that . I see that .
When you know , when you're leading the entities that you have now and the people you're working with right , Like we know where our boundary lines are , Like you can speak something out , but they got to go make it really happen and they have to be the champion of that , but you're just kind of watchful about it , but you don't enter into their territory .
No , you got to be careful .
You got to respect the health . You have to respect that .
Yes , and I think the operator has to kind of to your point we were talking about earlier and I can kind of see this . You know , the operators have to come to the humility of also that it's , yes , they deserve more attention , but the campaigner , that's what their job is to do . It's a , it's a like .
They can't want that as much like because , because what happens is there's as a campaigner , there's nothing I can do about that attention at some point . I have worked to get that attention right . You slit the fire , the fire's burning , Slit the fire baby and it's just there .
And the operator has to feel that they have to be really self-assured enough , in which my experience was that they were right 100% , which my experience was that they were right 100% , that that's just the thing that needed to happen and it doesn't alienate them . You know they have to recognize that that's just part of the campaigner's job , Do you think ?
though that the operators look at the campaigners and go you know what ? That guy's just full of bull . He's just a good BS-er . We're the ones that have to actually do this stuff and know what we're doing .
They're just bsers , so uh and in my experience my experience I always felt like they might be feeling that way , but they would reassure me that that wasn't how they were feeling . Yeah well , that's good . Yeah , no good . But I mean , yeah well , I mean I always felt that way , right like I always kind of felt like a little bit of bullshit in some ways .
No , I understand , but I was really contributing . Yeah , it's just hard . I think it's like you know , like if you and I started a business together , it might be pretty devastating in a way .
Yeah , I know We'd both be two campaigners . That'd be the problem . Maybe we should just do like a science experiment with it . There's two campaigners out there , but you know , the funny thing is I don't have to be a campaigner in every business that I work with .
I can be an operator on some cases and an influencer , but not the one in the limelight at all . I'm doing that right now . Yeah , you know you are , but you know what this whole discussion brings up ? An interesting thought for me , and I know you can relate to this one . Let's say I mean , I love this campaigner-operators thing , dynamic .
Okay , what happens when you sell a business that was created and managed and grown by this campaigner and this operator and the campaigner goes away in the sale and the operator remains and there's no other campaigner that takes the place . Or , let's say , the buyer puts in their own operators but they lack the campaigner .
Don't you think that's one of the problems that occurs when businesses are sold ? Oh , yeah , for sure that the campaigner goes away and all they've got is operators , for sure . And if they got a really great brand and name and product , whatever they can go on , they got a lot of inertia .
They can go on for three , four , five , ten years , but at some point that lack of a campaigner is going to really be felt and that thing is going to falter .
Yeah , 100% . The campaigning job is a it's mysterious , you know . I mean , in all honesty , it's like if somebody asks , like you know , and you can probably relate to this it . It's like if somebody asks , like you know , and you can probably like . It's like if somebody asked what did I actually do ?
Like how did how did I personally contribute to building a business I can't really give any direct advice I could .
I could describe a bunch of things , though but I could , yeah , I could describe , but there's a million things that mesh into this deal but like , yeah , to me the most important things that were done that I contributed to were very , um , were very like magical in a way , in very micro moments of when sit , you know , having a specific conversation with a very
specific person that had to be at the right time at the right place , saying the right thing for the right need . You know what I'm saying .
Yeah , then you can't target that , no , I agree with you . But you know what you can do . You can give yourself a lot of opportunities to create that .
Well , no for sure , that's what I'm kind of , that specifics , all those specific things , somebody could go well , that was lucky , okay , but it wasn't .
¶ Navigating Campaigner-Operator Relationships
I did that every day , all day , all day , exactly For years and years . That's the thing . It's like throwing a thousand hoaxes in the water and then I get the 40 pounder . It is like fishing .
Yeah , it really is it is like fish .
Yeah , it really is persistence . It's this , it's this like did you get lucky when you got the 40 ? But I mean , people will say you did , you did , no , you did 10 000 casts , 10 000 baby okay to get it , but .
But what people gotta understand is is , like you know how many times I was casting and people knew I was casting and getting nothing . That was that . That was a hard thing for me personally because , like you know , to keep casting , keep casting yeah , despite that , for a minute I can't always no one believes it anymore .
You know , yeah , but you keep casting and I mean , but but that was . That's why it's difficult , like as a as the campaigner part right to , to pinpoint what it is that we actually do .
And but I also think that , like to your question , if , if you get acquired or other operators come in like they , they it's , it's , it's squishy they don't understand what that campaigner's value really is . They don't . It's hard to understand that value . I tell you and I get it .
If I bought a company and there's a campaigner and me being as a campaigner , I'm like what the hell is that ? What the hell is she really contributing ? Or he's contributing to this company . You know what I mean . Like they did their job .
Yeah , you might think , think that , but then you also were going to be smart enough to go . You know what the campaigner got this yeah . Yeah , that's point too , but but it's there's .
There's something to what they do , I think yeah , there is , but you know , but you know the campaigner has to be it's , they have to . You know they have to feel like a hunt , like to the fishing analogy again , because it's a lonely job . Yes , it is , but they've got to feel like a hunt .
Like to the fishing analogy again , because it's a lonely job , yes , it is , but they've got to feel very intentional and purposeful behind it , like they have got to believe that I will catch the fish .
Yes , but if you take them out of the freaking out of the lake or off the river and put them over here , they're not going to be fishing anymore and so they're going to be like what the hell is my value ? That is so true , you know . So it's a delicate , true , I don't know .
I mean , are there good examples of where a comp I mean I don't like is there a good example of where a company , even at the biggest levels , have bought and acquired and taken and have a successful campaigner transition , I know , to where the campaigner is no longer really campaigning ?
I don't , you know , I can't . I mean I can't think of anything right off the top of my head , I do . I mean there are situations where companies are sold and the campaigner remains on . You know , you could take like Buell at Harley-Davidson , and he was there for a long time , but eventually it goes sour . Yeah , it just drifts away .
Yeah , it's like they get pissed off at the way the operators or the new operators are doing things and the operators really don't appreciate them and resent them , and so things go awry , you know .
Well , you know , the funny thing is , is there's . You know , if I really look at a company you know any small or big company it's like how many campaigners are there really in the company ? There's usually not very many . There's not very many . There's a lot of , mostly operators . Yes , there are , because you know , but is that the job of the campaigner ?
They create the situation where the operators can operate . They do and the need for operations . Yeah , the need . That's a great way to look at it . I love that .
If I did my job well as a campaigner . I'm growing business , and then there's more execution that needs to be done .
You know , I think maybe part of it is like if the campaigner and the operator quote partners , come together early in the evolution of the business and grow together , there's probably a greater likelihood of respect between the two parties . Absolutely .
Then if the campaigner has been out here and then suddenly there's a new operator 20 years later who comes into the program , that operator is not necessarily going to appreciate that that campaigner . The campaigner may not necessarily appreciate that operator and think I got us us this far .
Yeah , because I can tell you . Well , I can tell you , with my co-founder , Alex and JS both they did know , they witnessed my value Right as a campaigner .
Yeah , you start out with nothing and then you got something .
You got something right , yeah , right , they just know intuitively that there's contribution there .
Now could they say specifically I mean , yeah , they could point out a couple of things that I was just good at or whatever and contributing , but I think it was more intuition or experience that they believed the value , whereas on the flip side , coming in as a bigger company and you've got operators and they look at the campaigner , they don't have those
subconscious , experiential , intuitive understanding of the value of that . And it's okay , like I'm not , I'm not twisting about that , but I mean it's just a reality . I mean I just had a counseling session with you right now trying to understand this , but I mean I've been through it .
Yeah , if you look at any business , I know , like you know what I'm saying , like just that understanding . And I think that , even back to your earlier point , like I do believe that my previous partners , like they did probably have a point where I remember you know , specifically with Alex this is really early on .
You know , like where Alex is probably like wondering what the hell it is that I'm actually doing and I do when , when he's really like it's obvious he's in the back room . He is making it like working and doing all kinds of shit .
Yes , and I'm gone for hours , I know , eating lunches and having coffees and , yeah , you know , going to strange meetings of where we like , like , like the genesis of a meeting , like whenever you're , you're in a room and no one in the meeting knows why you're in the room .
But here you are , somehow you got in the room and it's like what is it that you do again ? Yeah , and then the campaigners like , oh shit , I do all kinds . This is my moment . Yeah , exactly To express how we provide value as a business partner with you . But that first meeting is like why the hell are you going there ?
Why would you spend three hours on the road to drive this far or to do these things ? And there's expenses associated with there's nothing . I'm telling you , it's so true , yeah , but you're still at me . I'm telling you , bro , like this is the meaning . And then you have it nothing develops . This is the meaning . And then you have it Nothing develops .
This is the . You know , it's just this continuous . And so there's gotta be like at some point . I remember kind of Alex , I kind of going okay , you know what I'm , I'm in this anyway . Right , I'm stuck here with this jackass . Yeah , I'm talking about me . Yeah , just let his goofy butt go do what he does , Right I ?
just have to have a little watch the show . Yeah , sorry , alex , but I think your campaigner operator framework is very good to keep in mind .
When somebody's talking about bringing on a business partner , whether they're external to the organization or they're internal currently and they're going to become a , or they're internal currently and they're going to become a business partner , it's a good , good way to be thinking about it . Okay , yeah , don't bring another campaigner in and expect things to necessarily .
I mean , I'm not going to say you don't , you know , at some point you need another campaigner . If you're going to transition there , better be somebody out there who can be the campaigner .
Well , that's your sales your top salesperson , exactly , or your market BD ? You know business development .
I mean like you've got to have additional campaigners , having done an internal transition where I'm completely dependent on their ability to succeed as a company . Going forward to get paid yeah , having somebody to be a campaigner yeah , but it that was very critical to me .
Yeah yeah , I think one thing on my end back that experience was I need to multiply myself , yeah , or multiply the campaigning right , because you can do so much more .
If you can multiply that , yeah , but I think you're right like that , that , that original partnership , like if you could take the advice of and I think what we're really wrapping up here is , if you are starting a business and for you have a business or you have a business right that started , can you genuinely stop and look at who both of you are , yeah ,
and say and identify one as the campaigner and the other one as the operator , and you both respect that space , you both don't interfere with that particular , those pillars . Yes , right , yes . Then you would save yourself a shit ton of potential threatening Angst and on both sides .
No , it's so true . Well , this is . I think this campaigner operator framework is one that it's really good , and I'm glad we we had this discussion . You've never clearly articulated that before .
I've heard you talk about campaigners , yeah , and what's a campaign in your mind , but I think it's a great way to look at it and it's a great framework for people to have when they look at either their existing partners or new potential partners .
Real quick , yeah . Like I've discovered the term campaigner through a personality test that I took with my wife a few years ago .
It said , you were a campaigner .
I filled out all these questions and I came back as a campaigner . I'm like yeah , I guess . Yeah , because I never really identified as a salesperson or a marketing person . It didn't complete me in my thought . But the campaigner's like yeah , I guess I'm always talking some smack .
I'm always , you know , dropping forward on something that seems you know 40 years ago I had to take this personality group of personality tests for this company I worked in where everybody who was on the ownership track had to take them and I I was . Whatever their damn test was , I don't remember .
I mean , my first wife was a psychologist , so I vicariously got my terminal degree in psychology . But whatever this test was , they came back all these tests and they summarized it and they said I was an explorer . I was like the people on the frontier out there . Okay , they said I was probably not going to last in the job , I'd get impatient . It was true .
Yeah , I was there three years . It was absolutely true . Yeah , but explore . So that was another way to look at it . You know , you got the campaigner , you got the explorer . The explorer is the one that's on it , the pioneer man . They're out on the front end there , frontiersman . You don't know , you might get attacked at any minute .
But you can't wait to see what's around the next corner . Yeah , exactly , I think if you have a partnership or you're starting one , it might be a good idea to take a personality test . There's Neural Color .
It's a really good one , but you can identify what those are and then I think that helps to make the conversation and the objective yeah , less threatening or less judgmental in a way look at it as a science experience .
yeah , yeah , let's take these personality tests , see where we land and then understand each other and be like , oh okay , well then you clearly are that person , so you own that , yeah , and respect that territory .
Let's take these personality tests , see where we land and then understand each other and be like , oh okay , well then you clearly are that person , so you own that , yeah , and respect that territory . And I think it could be helpful , you know just this whole campaigner versus operator thing .
It's really getting me thinking right now about the companies that I see , that I feel good about , their success potential and those who are struggling . One of the companies I work with right now has got a great campaigner , but it's got no operator . Another company I work with has a campaigner , has an operator .
Okay , got a lot of problems , but I feel like it's on the right track . Yeah , okay , I feel like , in spite of all those problems , they're going to be overcome . The other one's actually got more resources . That's just a campaigner without an operator , but it's it . It . It's future is murkier in a way .
When it it , you know , ostensibly you'd be like what do you mean ? It's murkier . It's got all these resources financially , you know , and it's not threatened in any way . You know what I mean . And yet there I am looking at the other one thinking you know what they got the necessary people , that the combination of those things is going to serve them well .
Yeah , um , so it's a really good framework . Thank you for introducing us to that today , eric . Oh , thanks , mark .
I'm dead serious . No , this is good . I mean like I love this . That's why I love this show . Yeah , I feel like that we counsel each other .
Yep , well , we're running out of time . We are .
I don't know about you , but I got a lot to do today . Yeah , let's go . I got to get some stuff done .
All right , everybody . Well , until next week . This has been yet one more episode of Big Talk about Small Business . We're here for you . Reach out to us , get on our website . If there's anything you want us to talk about , we're glad to do it . Send it , baby . If you want to sponsor this show , we'd love to hear from you . Send that money , baby .
And if you have any suggestions for guests which we are very picky about , by the way we're not looking for people that are Looking to build a business ?
Yeah , we want people that want to help others do what you've already done yeah .
Right , or that you are doing Right . So don't count on any one-man consultants or coaches out there , right ? That's not what we're looking for .
We want to talk to people who've done it , people who've overcome problems , people who have survived catastrophe yeah , people who've taken over family businesses and done better than their parents or predecessors Right , those are the stories we're looking for . We like success stories . Yeah , okay . We like , yeah , everybody's got problems , but victories , man .
We want to see that . Yes , those who overcame the obstacles , not just those who encountered obstacles and cratered or are starting to encounter one . Yeah , let's see people that got through the problem . That's it ,
¶ Connecting With Small Business Support
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