Ep. 49 - Scaling Entrepreneurial Peaks: From Lawn Mowing to Walmart Dominance with Michael Lebhar

Exactly , yeah , um . And then , um , I did a small car wash business and then , um , once I moved to back to la , so I lived in canada for a little bit . Once I moved back to la , I went to a high school that was like pretty rigorous , so we started seven in the morning , we finished at 10 pm . That's nuts , it's insane .

Um , so when I would get home , uh , I would just right away , um , me and my brother would right away kind of get to work , and we worked .

We knew they started when they were in high school . So I just asked them I'm like yo , just teach me what you're doing . Like I need it . I don't know what this stuff like . I need to learn about it . So we started on ebay . We did well on ebay and then from there we're like , hey , we want to get into amazon . So we started with amazon .

We brought in a few like private label products , um launched them on amazon and from there it just developed into a brand that we just started building out . Um scaled out on amazon and then , yeah , we were doing this all like throughout the breaks in middle school .

At one point we got a warehouse that was like a few blocks away from my school so we would be able to drive there on breaks and kind of make sure during your 7 to 10 pm school yeah , so like we would get , like we would get like lunch break for like an hour so we would drive there during lunch and then just check on everything .

And then , like during dinner break we would we would go there , make sure everything was running and we'd take care of some stuff , pack some stuff up , um so that was really cool .

Um , I remember in the early days before we had our warehouse , like we would pack in our room everything and then I had all my siblings help and then , like some days , we would have finished packages in time , so like we would have them all in the trunk of my car .

You know , like during break , like even breakfast break and stuff like that , we would just go up to the car , pack stuff up and then like drop them off at the post office shipping stuff .

Yeah , better than they know that you're over there packing stuff out of your car so like everybody in high school , like they always knew , like me and my brother were just packing stuff out of our car and then , until we got our warehouse and we're able to kind of scale that and from there , like what I saw about amazon is like it let it , let us down this

opportunity of building a brand and then from there kind of learned a lot more about business and then how we could expand to other areas and other channels and from there we expanded to walmart which building a real quick building a brand as a seller .

We stayed really focused in the fitness area for a while . Eventually we did some other categories , but that was kind of the main focus . And I think what's cool is like traditionally it's really expensive to build a brand .

It takes a lot of time with Amazon and kind of like sped up the process because you basically have to come up with some basic branding and then you could build it as the brand scales and as you sell more products . So that was cool .

Right , I remember like on random channels where we were selling on , like HSN , qvc , we were selling on Target at one point and one of the channels we were selling on was Walmart and what we noticed was that , like Walmart was selling really really well with very minimal effort . And then kind of we looked , we saw like there was very low competition .

We're like , hey , this is really interesting . We started having a lot of challenges with Amazon . So we're like , okay , what about we put the same level of focus we put on Amazon , the nuances , and try to really focus that in on walmart and see what we could do .

And you know , sure enough , like we became the best seller for our category on the marketplace side of things and we were able to really scale that we had a few really successful products . Um , and from there I kind of realized that like brands really didn't know a lot of nuance about the platform or about any anything , how to run stuff .

So then that's kind of where it led me down the service path of understanding . Okay , there's really good opportunity here , um , to really service brands that are trying to grow on walmart um , whether it's walmart marketplace or just during general walmartcom . They have all these struggles or you know , they're just not adapting quick enough . Yeah to that .

So , like you know , there's good opportunity there .

So that's kind of where we started cell cord , which is a walmart agency , um , and we specifically focus on walmartcom , primarily on the marketplace side , and yeah , we've been that's kind of been my focus and we've really scaled that up and like full service , basically helping brands or whatever get on Walmart marketplace and accelerate in that .

Exactly , yeah , so full service . So it's everything from helping with the strategy because , if you know , if it's a larger business that has a current kind of 1p presence , it's very important for the marketplace strategy to be well tied into what they're doing on their 1p side of things .

If it's a business that isn't on walmart at all , like they don't understand the walmart ecosystem at all . So there's also a lot of strategy like which items make sense , how to go about it .

So then we'll handle the strategy to actually preparing them for launch , getting them launched on the platform and then growing the business and managing the business for them , because you know , a lot of times they don't have the time , resources to really spend managing the day to day of what's needed to manage a marketplace platform .

So that you know , it was a whole new world for me because it's the service side of things and I've always dealt with , like , the product side of things .

But I think , in truth , like my strengths were always on the product side of things , but I think , in truth , like my strengths were always on the relationship side , yeah , and I , with when you're in the product side of business , like you don't really leverage that so much . Um .

So I think , as I tapped into the service side of things , been able to like really pull my focus , um and just operate , like I think , more efficiently just because of my where my like natural abilities are , well , it sounds like you enjoy it .

There's the sales , there's all these different relationships right , Growing the relationships with existing business , getting new business , the relationships with Walmart .

So there's like so many relationship aspects to it where I feel like when you have something unique and you really give the relationship , your all like there's so much opportunity that comes from it and it's just it's enjoyable to just meet cool people , meet a lot of people , get to make a lot of friends in the industry . So I like that part of it a lot .

And then I really like the competitive nature of it where there's like these older legacy , you know competitors in the space that have been around forever that just operate . They're big and successful because of how large they've been and kind of what they tapped into maybe 20 years ago and now they're just kind of leveraging that success .

But in a lot of times they're not doing things the right way . So the competitive angle of it just keeps it . Yeah , and it's it's like a really good push to kind of really try to take a big portion of that market .

I've done a few of these things , but the neural color was really neat because it actually helped a guy like me that if I can just see four simple colors then I can maybe remember what this test was about . But it came back . I was a high yellow visionary , which didn't surprise me .

But then there was this green color that came in and I was really high on that , almost like one point off . But I read a bullet point in there . It was like the third bullet point down . I was like what the hell does green mean ? Like collaboration or something ? But there's a third bullet point down I'll never forget . Is that what inspired the color ? For ?

I remember reading that going oh my god , man , that is , that's a truth to me . Like I love seeing other people , I love helping other people , seeing them take on new challenges , become better . You know , doing kind of like what might seemingly be impossible today , but then you fast forward two years and they're like , doing it , like in their sleep .

It's so rewarding to me . And I don't know when you were talking about that like , like , because you're . What you're saying is is like y'all had a successful business in the product side , and I mean like there's probably a lot of people that want to do a product .

Like I would say that if you took a poll of an audience , most people say , oh , I'd love to create a brand and sell a brand on ecom . You don't hear as many people saying , oh , I want to start a service business . Yeah , it's not as sexy , I don't know . Yeah , yeah , yeah , initially sexy , but I think that what you said is pretty .

It's pretty neat and , like mark , and I talk about a lot about that you know , being an entrepreneur and starting a business like there's a lot of opportunity in service business . So have you seen that ? Have you seen that opportunity ?

You know the business and I really like the opportunity , right , because seeing how much extra opportunity there is , and I think when you're in the product business , you develop a product and put it on a platform and a retailer or whatever it is , and then there's a few levers you could pull to try to make more sales , right .

So , like there's definitely things you could do , you could add on products you could . You know there's some tactics you could try . Sometimes it works , sometimes they don't want you competing against so many people , but it's and sometimes you hit that thing that works really well and you could scale it .

And sometimes you don't , and then it's a little bit challenging and it takes a little bit longer . With service-based businesses , I think you it's just so wide the area that you could service clients and you're so in touch with what they need . So you have a relationship with a client .

You know that this is what they're looking for and you know if you could provide this service in a scalable way this and that you could expand your services and offer that , and I think you're much closer to the customer as opposed to when you're selling product .

It's a little bit harder and you're just so much closer to the customer with the service-based businesses so you're able to get a lot of this insight of , like , what the industry needs , what the community needs , and pretty easily to kind of distribute and scale that . Um .

So as long as , like , you build the foundational elements really well and you you have a really good service , I think scale comes really quickly

. Okay , um , and I think you know , in general , people look at service businesses and like they're not as scalable , but I think it's really all about the foundations you set with a lot of business you know that's good , so tell us about some of those foundations Like what do you mean ? Yeah .

So I think for foundations it's like it's really important A few things Right , so like , and I think in different service based businesses it's it might be a little bit different , but in ours and you've probably seen this through your career in ours it's really been about what are you , what's the services that you're offering , right ?

And if it's , if your value proposition is simply cost savings or simply , um , you know , we do something a little bit better than somebody else , it's really hard to to really scale , because what ends up happening is there's a portion of the market that's always looking for service and you could maybe fight for that portion of the market and get that service .

But we have to realize , like most of the market already is being serviced . Whether it's internally or externally , they're already being serviced .

So getting somebody to switch their provider from what they're doing or even if it's not a provider , or for it's from an internal way of doing things , there has to be a good enough reason why so like , your value proposition has to be strong in a few different ways where collectively it's like okay , this is a no brainer for my business , and I think too often

a lot of services try to contract a small way that's they gave . They gave us enough trust for our us to do our job , if we do our job really well , and then it could open up more of that .

So I think it really comes down to , like you know , and you don't have to get it right the first time either right , like just be intentional about when you're structuring what you're trying to sell for that , and then , if you have that done well , like you'll see , it'll scale really quickly .

So that's kind of the first thing I think is the most important is just really figuring out , like what do you try to sell , making it in a way that it's applicable to the market that you're trying to sell to . And then , like you could try something . And then you speak to a few people .

You see you're getting pushback , like don't just now try pushing it to another 1050 . Yeah , right , revisit what you're trying to push , right , whether there's something off with your proposal , your value proposition , or maybe it's just how you're talking about it , or maybe it's the actual service .

So I think like that part setting that foundational is like very , very important .

You know , because if they just think of like okay , this is the service proposal that you gave me right and that I have , so I'm just going to try pushing this to many people like no , I think you have to get them to think of like understanding the customer , yeah , reworking that stuff , especially when you're in those earlier stages , um , and we're kind of

building that .

I'm not actually playing the game as much like I'm trying to help my team , like figure out things . I know that there's mistakes they're going to make . I can see them so blatantly obvious , you know .

But but when they do get a feedback from a customer , but it's like relentlessly putting back into their mind like oh , the customer wants that , then then absolutely you do it . You want guidance , you hear what your customer is asking you , what the market's demanding from you .

Right because you know whatever your funding is or whatever the costs are and all that kind of stuff . But I think too many business owners stay in that mindset for too long .

But , like , as soon as you're able to basically let people make mistakes , let people drive things , and give them kind of that guidance , so like they'll make less mistakes , they'll notice when they made mistakes , and kind of doing that , then you build it much more sustainably Right .

So , like I think in businesses like this is what I think of it is you want to build the buffer and people have different opinions on this .

But in my opinion , like you want to do whatever you can , if opinion , like you want to do whatever you can , if you really you're , you have your idea , you're really confident , you want to make it work , you've done some market research , like you want to get into it .

Then there's like that first page like okay , what's for me like with , with , with cell cord or walmart agency . It was like , okay , let me talk to a few you know friends I have in the space , like what are their challenges ? How they're currently one site and I'd be okay . This is really makes sense .

Like people need support for the marketplace side and it's like I want to do everything I can to make sure we have life to figure out the mistakes , to figure out things and to get it scaled . So there's this period of time where it's like build a sustainable business . So what does that mean ? We need to have X amount of revenue with X amount of clients .

Like what do we do to get that done ? And like build that foundation right From done and like build that foundation right from that foundation . Now you have room to make mistakes , right , unless you're funded and all this kind of stuff . But if you're bootstrapping it , it's like you need to have the room to make those mistakes .

So you have that initial um phase where you're pushing as hard as you can , you make sure that you bring those clients in and maybe not all them are the exact clients you want down the road and maybe not all them are the exact paying you the exact amount you want and all that .

But you learn enough about the business through that and you build a foundation and now that third phase is really now you want it to build in a really scalable way , which I think where it comes down to , like , you have to really let your team take charge , you have to let them make mistakes , you have to let them lead the way and , like being a good coach

, the better of a coach you are , the better you'll kind of move that way . So some people could skip , skip that with , like funding that second phase a little bit Right . But as an entrepreneur , if you never had experience in that middle phase , I think it's worse to kind of jump to that .

I think , like with probably your next businesses , you've already seen kind of what has to be done in that middle and foundational phase . So when you go to that phase of building stuff up already , you know , know a little bit more about that .

But I think for every entrepreneur it's so important to get that phase , which is going to be a player coach right , yep , player exactly , play the ball exactly .

Otherwise , like I feel like also then the team doesn't respect you as much when you don't understand kind of the nuances like I think this is like we have a technology division and I think it's the hardest for me to manage because I don't understand a lot of those stuff right .

So it's like I could take the principles that we use managing our other teams and try to apply that technology . But it's a little bit hard to do it effectively when I don't understand what goes into it . I don't understand when they're telling me it takes this long to do , like yeah , why does it take .

Like I like and I think that it's probably it's mostly related to you being an entrepreneur , but I mean like , but I mean my okay , like to go down that road . Like what I do , you know , is I'm almost let's talk about tag real quick , because I think this is yep , oh , you got , I got it's all right it's okay , that's the lids .

The lids fall um the lids in Arkansas . Don't stay on right and if we , if we were like a proper podcast studio , we would like to stop the show and take care Where's my hair and makeup .

Everybody raises capital for an idea about a technology and it's just . It's really just an idea with a market need or gap that they see , they go raise and build all this , this , this funding , and then they spend millions and hundreds of millions of dollars building this tech but there's not any real guts , like to the deal now .

But for you , you know exactly what tech needs to be built because you worked in the weeds of the audience right .

And my philosophy is , if we're the closest to the customer and we're the closest to the business , we know the things that really impact the business , that edge of building the right product will outdo the edge of the more money and all that kind of stuff .

I think it's just really important to like , not only be really close to it , not only when you're developing the product , but as you're expanding the product and as you're growing it , to be really close to kind of the customer . And that's , I think you know , I think you've seen this in the space .

There's a lot of this tech that comes out and sometimes they rarely hit it on the nail right away . Some companies are better at adapting to the customer , getting close to the customer , and then their technology becomes much better and they get to that place .

I just think so much of that time would be cut down if they just had more communication with the customer .

Like going back to the developer thing , like , as an entrepreneur , working with developers has got to be one of the most or the development , not developers but development process is one of the most frustrating , freaking things in the planet .

It's like so easy and sometimes I ask like are you crazy ? Like you know what we have to do to do that . So I think it's just like , I think that's something you , you know , and it's like you're like why , and like I don't know .

But now , like I wish I went to development boot camp , you know , because , like it , just you get that and you'll be doing the same kind of um training as some of these people are thinking . But , and I think there's so much opportunity

with development . I think also one of the big challenges are when you're building technology , it has to target like a pretty widespread audience because you're trying to make it really scalable . If you're trying to make it really scalable , it needs to target a pretty wide net .

And when it's targeting a really wide net , it's there's going to be people who are it's a better fit for . But usually because you're making wider , really wide net , it's not really a great fit for anybody but it'll be the next best up solution .

But for a company to invest a ton of money , build the best product for that one niche , a lot of times isn't , it's not a large enough of a niche right . So like , yeah , walmart technology right . Yeah , like for marketplace , like there'll be solutions that'll help , or holistically .

But marketplace for a lot of these people , for Walmart marketplace isn't big enough for a lot of these providers to really build out really tailor technology to help with .

So I , like Mark , I get on this conversation a lot like this whole funding versus being bootstrapped right , like if you're setting out like it's really challenging for the entrepreneur that's bootstrapping to do that , because you have to be so diligent to think and think and think about the longevity of that fad .

Is it a fad or is it something that's going to be actually useful ? But a lot of these folks that go out and raise money , they're taking bets on fads and they're expecting a development in nine months of some massive system with huge campaigns . But I mean that whole economy does kind of pay off . It's the one to ten home .

So like , yeah , um , and like I one time had one of my clients introduce me once to like an advisor who was um , who's on the like executive team of a really large company and he was telling me , like he told me , that basically what what ends up happening was when you take funding is it just pads a lot of those problems .

So if you don't fix those problems before they get bigger and bigger and bigger , if you were bootstrapped you would notice that they're getting bigger and bigger because they're really affecting your business .

But if you're not bootstrapped , if you're funded , and then that money just covers the problem , right , and it's just , it's the problem's getting bigger and bigger . You just don't see really that problem .

And I think with funded businesses it's like you could have a lot of the things right , but if a few of those key elements aren't right , it could be really hard to make the business model work .

And then you rely on a series A , c , a , b , c , d until somebody acquires you and then they're able to make it work within their org chart because of other reasons , because they already have a client . Yeah , clients and all this other stuff or what it helps them positioning in the market and all this kind of stuff .

But if in reality , if you strip it down , it's not a good business right On its own , and I think what ends up happening is , when a business isn't a good business on its own unless you hit the home run , you're kind of screwed .

So I think where you really want to be as an entrepreneur is that , even if you're funded , is that you really want to be in a place where your business gets to thrive on its own , especially in today's economy .

If you could be in a business where today , when your business is sustainable and survive on its own , then there is a whole market of who your business makes sense to . It makes sense for yourself because you're making money on it . It makes sense to private equity investors who are just looking for businesses that make money .

But it'll still make sense for that big investor necessarily that's looking for a home run . All it still has that upside if you build it the right way . But it also has that safety kind of net of that . So I think , like when you kind of balance that , just if you're going to take funding , it's so important to understand .

Like what do you really , unless you only care about the home run , and if not , whatever . But that's so hard to like run a business that way , it is . But they're playing the game . Yeah , there's , but you know there's a lot of your control right there ?

It's different , right , because here's what my problem is . I have tried to raise capital and I get really really frustrated really quickly when I try to raise capital for my businesses , because I'm not coming to you looking for money to save me , I'm coming to let you know . There's an opportunity for you here , bro , and this thing is going to be massive .

If I had a little capital , I know that I could take that and expedite the timeline of success here , right . But when it starts getting into all these things and these pitch decks and all this stuff that they want to see which rightfully so , if you're an investor , you want to see that I'm like I don't have the patience . I'm like I'm out .

I'm just going to do it on my own , because I would rather take this 30 minutes that I just spent talking to you and the two hours I had to get prepared for it and all the full . I'd rather talk to a client .

you have to . If you have too much money in that proving your business concept , a lot of times I think what ends up happening is that you burn through all that without solving the core issues that need to be solved .

Right , but you have to be kind of aware and figure out , okay , like when you're at that place that you're talking about , where it's like you just want to get there faster and you're actually at that place . You know , are you able to gotta get clients that'll get you there faster and more business ?

Or it depends on your business , how much cap , how capital intensive it is , or that money might be able to kind of help you . But then you also have to realize what cost that money's coming at right , like , yeah for sure , what are those people you know ? Are they going to help you ? Are they going to slow you down ? Right ?

Sometimes you could take money with people that are going to help you right , because they want you to succeed and they have they have good partnerships in the space and this and that , but like likely , if you're taking from a really big investor and they have a bunch of deals like you're not getting any help .

If anything , their processes are all gonna you know , kind of To take you to a second time . It's gonna suck your time and your energy , which I feel is what you need in that space .

You know , uh , you're trying to force something that just it's too hard to force or it's going to take too long to get there . We were talking about this yesterday . It's like how ahead of you are of the curve , like there's . Are you wrong about your theory ? Right ? So are you selling ?

Try to , you're trying to come , you come up with an innovative product , right , are you ? Is it ? It could be that you're wrong . The market doesn't want it . It could be that you're just too early for the market , right , and it could be that you're a year too early , which it might be good because you could build up and wait it out .

Or you could be five years too early , where you're not going to have enough runway to really figure that out . So I think it's a lot about that timing and you know so , when you know the product side of businesses , like when you have you know , on my partner invested money , like when you have that investment it speeds up some things .

But it also , I think you know you don't want to be sped up . Yep , exactly . And then you're not forced to really think as critically about , like what do you do ? People want what you're selling , right , yeah . And then for the agency , we've completely bootstrapped it from like nothing and then we built out , you know , my first business .

We started with 500 bucks Like the agency was also very minimal capital . We bootstrapped it , you know , and we've been around for like three and a half years . We're at this stage right now where we've reached some really strong scale um , really strong partnership with walmart .

We we've like , really , I think , cracked a lot of the s&p um portion of the business and now we're kind of , you know , growing on the enterprise side of things . Um , and you know , our philosophy right now is the market's at a choosing point . Three years ago was early , so it gives a lot of time to build out the market .

In regards to Walmart , marketplace is really growing there's , you know , we're positioned ourselves as a leader but , like it's for anybody for the taking right , so we're the best position to , in my opinion , to take us further .

Um , so that's like , do we take capital from a strategic investor who will help us grow at the same time , so who will help us kind of get there faster and then if they could add in some strategic support as well . Like you know , we get advisors that really care about the business .

So that's what we've been working on and you know we're closing in on that round , which I think is really interesting because it gives us , you know , I think you know in our stage in the business it's like what does the capital do ? It brings on investors who are advisors , who are not massive investors , who are there to kind of help us in that .

So I think that's a really cool thing . And then number two is it gives us stability in the business . So you could have a really good business , but there always could be different .

Yeah , there's seasonalities , cash flow , like I was speaking to an advisor and they told us like you always want to have , for example , like three months of reserves in your full reserves , in your reserve account , and I'm like , when you think about that , it might not sound like a lot , but when you think about like all your payroll , all your costs , especially

when you're service providers , a lot of your cost is like your payroll and most of it is . So it's like you think about that , it's like a lot of money and I'm like why do you ? You know you need that much , if your , if your revenue is recurring and all that .

And it's like you just end up making better decisions if you don't have to worry and if you have more of that kind of mental clarity , that's up . So there's like the stability of the business where , like you know now , you know that the business is in a good spot , so I think that's the ability for the business .

And then there's the main point , which is the acceleration , right , and I think that's where it's like it's so hard , because you really have to be critical about it . Like , does the money really bring acceleration ? And sometimes it doesn't , right . And it's all about how you use the money too , right , and I think you know how much money you take too .

Then it comes down to like what's the amount of money that you could effectively utilize that'll actually grow your business in a much shorter amount of time ?

Because the way I look at it is , if you're able to grow your business really quickly with that amount of money , then you didn't really give up anything because you traded money for added valuation , because now your business is worth more to making more money . But if you use that money poorly . Now you're worse than when you kind of started .

So it's a lot about like , what are you trying to get out of the money ? And I think when you're a bootstrap business , you've proven your business to be profitable and successful and you're just trying to scale it . I think it can make a lot of sense to make money .

Like I mean , because bringing people on is I mean there's not many circumstances where it's detrimental , like I've only experienced a few bad apples , few bad apples that really harmed the business . I've experienced very few , like probably about the same number that really accelerated the business .

Most of everything else has been kind of standard , yep , and it's standard in the sense of where it had to really accelerate but definitely didn't harm . You know it was . I mean it's needed to kind of yeah , it's sustained it , it did what it needed to do , right , I mean like how are you ?

Then you have your leadership , which , in an ideal scenario , are those few apples who really push the business forward , right , and there's two levels of leadership . There's the ones that really push the business forward and then there's the ones that manage the rest of the business , right .

So for like , manage the business , like I think it's too hard to get everybody to be like the best thinker is the best you know , most visionary . You don't necessarily want that .

So , like I think you know , for the management , it's a lot about , for management , what we have to understand , like what we want out of our business , when we understand what we want and what we need to service our current business , and then what we need for growth . There's like two elements , right .

So it's like what do we need for growth and what do we need to service the business ? And I think for that there's a lot of people that fit into that equation . So then it's like filling the gaps of that . Right , it's like who are people that are going to really service our clients well , Like what do we care about Growing our clients ?

Or who are , like strategic thinkers and proactive thinkers ? We want good relationships with our clients . Like , are they , you know , good relationship builders ? And then are they good team players ? There's a lot of people that have to work with . Like , if we fill in those gaps and we , you know , we'll have a good , sustainable kind of thing .

But then there's , like the people that really drive . I think the rest of the team ends up , you know , slowly pushing as well .

So it's like when you think about from , like , client servicing teams and advertising leads and things like that , like you want them to be people that are visionary and pushing , but you don't need a ton of those , right , if you have too much of those , it'll be too much too , absolutely , you know .

So it's like we have bigger ownership because I have some partners . So , like I think we have a lot of people that are already pushing , but yeah , now we're trying to hire some more leadership .

That actually really helps with that as well , because I think the best feeling for me as an entrepreneur is when I see and you kind of alluded to this earlier but like , as I see other people like , take on projects themselves , drive it , and just do it .

Like take on projects themselves , drive it , yeah , and just do it like , and I'm like that's , that's , that's success , right , because it's like you've given them the infrastructure to do it , yeah , confidence to be able to do it , and , again , the outcome , without any of your energy having , because there's a certain amount of projects you can manage , that's right

you know , and if every , if enough people do that , then the whole company is lifted . Now this , now this entity can do things that never thought it could do , and then one leader in this department sees somebody's doing that , so they give us the other leader confidence we might have it in this to do it .

They just , you know , didn't have enough of the push to do it . And I think , when you're probably like a really important place for it is where we are , where , like , there's the infrastructure for them to be able to do that , right .

But we're not too large where and we're not large like a really large company , where , like , there's so much risk if they , if they venture out and do some of these things , you know , and I like , as much as I hate on the really big companies , I kind of see it too like sure , why should they take the risk sure of you know , of trying something new , of

doing something new , where , when , if it messes up , they lose a lot , a lot , a lot more , and if they win on it , they sometimes don't win that big because , right , to win big in their scope , it has to be a really , really big , massive . Yeah , yeah , it's like that's what that's .

But as a founder , right , I mean , don't you think that , like as the founder entrepreneur of the company , like you are kind of on an Island ?

. Yeah , um , but yeah , yeah , I think you've end up feeling like you're so different and , like I , I have to try to learn how to contain a lot of my thoughts .

You know what I mean , and like all my ideas because they're like oh my god , you know , my ceo always tells me and he's a co-founder he always tells me like yo , like , at a second , I think , like I have stuff in a good place and I'm clearing stuff out , like we got a good flow , you just add on more projects .

I'm like , but , yeah , that's kind of what I do and I think , as you get bigger , like it's like you know , you wait , you know different leaders are able to be like okay , that's a good idea , we have capacity for this , we don't , or , you know , and they're able to make kind of decisions , but in the beginning you have to just force it , you know , because

you're like , you're convinced this is what has to be done to make it work , and I think it's fine if that's wrong .

But you have to be so sure you're like right in the beginning to just power through it and like power , all that adversity and everything and even if a lot of this stuff is wrong , but like , if you start second guessing all this stuff , like you just don't end up with the confidence to really build it out .

But then as your company establishes and builds bigger , you don't need all that . Yeah , you don't need that all the time . Yeah , you don't do that all the time you know , it's like , it's fine . If it's like you know , yeah , that's a stupid idea . Like I'll go in like to my cto's office and I'll be like , hey , what do you think about this ?

And like he'll just give me his opinion like it's a bad idea or it's a good idea . Sometimes I'll listen , sometimes I won't . Sometimes I want to hear from like another third person .

I actually find this conversation refreshing because it's not many people I can actually ask that question and I'm like , oh , thank God there's somebody else , because I mean , man , I've caused a lot of problems in the past about not being aware of what I was doing and the bad thing about it was I wasn't .

Not only was I hurting other people and processes , but I was also being very frustrated myself and I was mad , you know , or angry about that scenario until I did realize , like you talked about , like you get to the point where you you walk in the office and you and you ask your partner you got this idea there and they say one thing that like is kind of

has some good sense to it . That was why not to do it , but I mean you need to forget it . Yeah , like I'm okay , I'll drop it .

But sometimes , like you know , three months later they're like yo , you're still just smoking something .

Like you know , like it's not it , and then I'm like , okay , but then the goal is , after thinking about it for so many times , as long as you're like not too stubborn , once you're , you know , and that's the thing I think , when your business is really new , it's fine to like , yeah , it is totally be started .

I'm gonna need that partner that comes in and and just level , sets things and then , and then I kind of hang out and be crazy for a while . It's kind of like you're the jester in a way , and then at some point the team will build it and it'll be beautiful . But then I'm going to go find something else . Yep , because I've got to be able to play .

It's been really refreshing for my life as an entrepreneur to to start back up again get back in the ballgame . Yeah , it's like it's , there's a humbling feeling to it , there's a humility to it , there's a shame , yeah , I mean . There's nothing better than , like beans , being a little bit worried .

Yup , you know , cause when you build up those comfortable , it's yeah , man , it's like . It's like taking a yeah , it's just not gritty enough , man , it's not , it doesn't have enough danger to it . Maybe that's part of it too , and you know the unknown is cool .

It's a stressful life , like coming out like I don't want you to work extra , like cause if you work extra , then you're just gonna resent it . You know like , unless you're , I feel like you're really made out of it and stuff

like that . But most people aren't so thing , you know , like you know because you're going to need that energy kind of for work , and it's like I think entrepreneurs are like oh , I gotta get every , I gotta get every hour out of this person especially in the agency world , you see it the most often .

And it's like my whole philosophy is if the if a person needs to work 10 hours for them to be worthwhile enough for you , then you're doing something about your model's flawed .

Either that person's not efficient or your service isn't efficient and you're not charging enough that you need that person to work extra hours to accomplish and obviously there's always timelines , deadlines and unique scenarios .

But if that's how it always is that the person has to work extra to accomplish that , like there's something's wrong about the model and just fix it it's not the end of the world .

You can't keep investing in pushing things that don't freaking work because you're not going to get to where you want to go . Yep , that's a horrible , not the hard one dude I yeah it really is . I remember , I remember being so damn frustrated and just like driving relentlessly in the beginning .

You know , at white spider days , you know , especially in the companies before that it was like I couldn't , I couldn't relate to anybody . I was always angry , you know people were always . You know people would leave and I wouldn't understand why .

But now there's some , there's there's been some balance over the years , like that's a really good point , like and you want , you want to understand that and get people that space to be them , because you can't put me in a , you know you can't put a square bag in a real note , yep , it just doesn't work .

That was the what I was looking for before square bag around , boom . Because , like if I said , hey , michael , hey , you want to come work for ? Hey , here's the deal , I'm gonna make an offer to you . All right , where's the paper ? Well , here it is . I think you're gonna come work for me in my company . I'm out of position , but I need you .

You're gonna be like account executive but you only work . You can only work 8 to 5 and you have an hour lunch an hour 15 .

He's like , hey , I might start podcast dash videos dot com . And I'm like , all right , dude , that's almost uncool , you know but it's still kind of a domain yet .

Does it really take , Michael , so much of you to be an entrepreneur ?

it's constant too , man and it's so hard to pivot where , like you're so gung-ho about , like I , this is the right thing , you know , and this is what the right . It's good business , and it's like , nah , it's kind of stupid man . But sometimes people just tell you that because they don't get it .

But then it's like sometimes they're true , they're right , you know , and even if it's , they don't get it , like that's still an issue . It's like why don't they get it if they don't get it ?

Like there's , you know , you might be so far off base that , like you might be way too early , so you have to speak to more people and like , yeah , I have a friend that started a business , um , and he he was like in in the early phases , like just nobody got it , and now people are starting to get it .

So that's kind of like a balance of like , yeah , some people just don't get it , which is fine , um , but like he was very troubled by it . He's like , because one of the one of the people he was speaking to was like an investor in the space who's really smart , and he was like telling me he's like , why don't I get , why doesn't he get the model ?

It concerns me that this investor just doesn't get what I'm talking about and I'm like it's the right way to think about it , like there's a reason why he doesn't get about it , and then it sure enough , like later the person got it .

Um , but I think that's really important is to like make sure , like if people aren't understanding , why are they not understanding it ? And this is like a core flaw . You have to kind of address .

But now you know in other spaces , and just even walmart , you know understanding it and all that . I think it helps a lot because then you could double down your efforts and double down your investments .

Um , I think you , you know , but you still it's always like you want to keep that startup mentality so that you , you make sure you know nobody else , you know it's there for the taking . I would say it's like we're we're just invested in it for a while , so we have a head start on some people , but like it's there for the taking , you know yeah , dude .

The smarter , smarter part of me like very smart has her hidden , like , but very practical but she's not in family law right like divorce law . No , so I'm going to come do it for me . Eventually she's like I want to do fun stuff , like criminal stuff . I'm like nah business boring .

So it's like dude , last night I wigged out , my wife thinks that way , and if I really worked with my wife and it's just like my head wouldn't ever stop .

And she's like oh you , is it too bad for you to sit down and spend some time with your wife ? And I go no , babe , it's not you , it's not that . I was like I just feel like that I've wasted . I have had the soul sucked out of me because I've been so unproductive . Like this is not fair for humanity for me to sit here .

Like I got up , I felt I felt dirty man . I felt dark Dirty . I've been offender all the way . Well done , well done man . He probably is right . All right man , you said it . I'm sure he probably is right . All right man , michael , it's been a joy We've got to do this again . Next time you come in town let's do it again . Yeah , cool , sounds good man .

All right . Thanks everybody for listening and audience . If you want to get a hold of Michael , just reach out to me .

It's a great way to make sure that you know when the new episodes drop , um , and also get some , uh , some extra content there . Uh , don't forget to like and subscribe on our YouTube all that kind of freaking cheesy stuff . And if you want to sponsor the show , anybody , anytime I like , anytime I'm like you're at least going to take 15% .

It looks like you started a new business . Oh , thanks , You'll give us 15 . Hey , you got a sponsor . It's only for a hundred bucks . Next thing , you know , you're in the podcast sponsorship , business , service , business . I can see it right now . All right , folks , been another episode of big talk about small business .

We'll be missing Mark again , like I said , uh , for the next few times , but he'll be back soon with him and his beautiful long way . Be here , have a great day .

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