Ep. 45 - Chuck Hyde on Leadership Strategies for Every Season of Business

This is another episode of Big Talk About Small Business .

But so he was good , yeah yeah , I forgot I was .

You're like sex idol for all the people in the community and then you bust out with some waterfalls tlc . You know I'm like it just didn't make sense to me .

Chuck is somebody I met several years ago through Vistage . He was our local Vistage chair for two Vistage groups that I inherited from him for a year and a half or so , but he's well known in the area .

Tomal has had a very interesting career , tell us a little bit about yourself , Chuck , and how you got started as a management consultant and leadership expert and coach and all the things that you do .

The strange part of my story is and people ask me like , how in the world did you land where you're doing what you're doing when you started as a chemical engineering student in the original arkansas , and so you know you , when you're , when you're a chemical engineering student , all roads lead to the gulf is kind of the way .

Things that typically , typically uh , we must .

But I liked it because you know and it says something about me , maybe that it was uh , okay , we're dealing with mass and temperature and volume , like things that you can touch , right . They make sense to me Electrical engineers , for example like they're .

So I went to work for a company called Kimberly Clark , you know so , a big CPG company , which was again very atypical for most chemies , right , you know , because again , you're basically in the oil and gas industry , petrochemical industry , and that's where my co-op jobs were .

That's where all the away-from-home businesses are . So tissue well , yeah , the professional health care , nonwovens businesses , all the things that they do , that's in Roswell . And then again the world headquarters really is the CEO , cfo , legal counsel and those kinds of things . So there were three headquarters , if you will .

So , anyway got hired in Conway out of school to go and do process engineering and they needed chemis because there was a material science base to it right and to a diaper , for example . So there was that level of understanding and so did that .

I was at casey for 12 years , stops in conway , at wisconsin , at our headquarters , and then south carolina wow , at a site there . So 12 years , and in the 12 years there I had 11 different jobs , which was , you know , a big part of the answer to your question like how did he go into consulting right ? Well , it's . I don't know how .

I don't know how good of an engineer I was . I had to work pretty hard for that degree . There were people that were just wicked smart types , that just were .

Right , like , okay , you can drop me into a place . In fact , I had a one of our professors at uh in in school . This , this is germane to the story . We were the one engineering discipline that was not required to take any computer programming and I think back in the late 80s I mean .

He's like well , we figure that if we took you guys in an airplane and dropped you out of it over France at some point , you'd learn French . We're like okay , and it was the end of the conversation and so project to it , I guess yeah so like well , you know , you learn it you learn it .

You know , we don't need to you know major and you gotta know enough about it . You can become conversational . I mean it'll be fluent . But yeah , you'll be fine , sure , and so we went okay .

So , uh , but that agility , it was something that did pay off for me and so um opportunity to do some leadership development , uh that you know , just in the corporate environment . Um , in 2001 I got opportunity to come down back to northwest arkansas , which was home for me , uh , to do some training .

It was at circus leadership and uh , and it was kind of like man , man , this is really different . I really like what I do , I'm good at it . I've got great sponsorship , which I was starting to discover was a thing inside of corporate environment Great sponsorship . I'm going to be a lifer at KC .

But you know what , if I really wanted to do something totally different , this would be pretty cool and went back to work . And went back to work Four years later , different series of events that were like okay , it's time for me to do something different somewhere else .

So he was still , I'm pretty sure , still active on the board . At least he had no longer a COO . But it was just like oh , there's Don Sodaquist . I was like because I grew up here , I'm like , well , it's Don . I was , like everybody knows , don Sodaquist .

firm . When that group started it was not necessarily that they were building the MBA program at JBU , they were doing events .

So we were very outward , facing , very market focused um some things on campus to add value to faculty and students , but for the most part we were a consulting firm .

Well , his point , his point on that , which was actually a healthy cultural thing for us , the consultant , there's a connotation of this parasitic relationship . It's always a self of like . You never go away Right . Consultants always keep finding reasons to do work , of course , and you know Walmart was a target for some of that .

He probably had a taste for some of that , and so he's like that's not who we are , like we engage and we release , like absolutely Don . So that was what he was actually rejecting .

It was time to re-engage , yeah , on a new , a new initiative , a new , you know , whatever it could be . There was a new need that we could help with , and and I used to tell our team like I wanted to be the first stop shop . I didn't want to be a one-stop shop , right ?

Because that's the other thing about consultants is that we had this , these videos that our guys did , you know , kind of making fun of consulting and all there's like , what do you do , what do you need , right ? You ?

we don't call so , but here , here's who you know we could , we could make be a way maker and then a route finder , and that's what we were doing , and so , and people would appreciate that right , and so we understood , you know who the credible people were doing good work in any given discipline .

If it wasn't us and that still stayed with me , like again in my practice today , I'm not trying to do anything . We don't use the term Rolodex anymore . They're like I want to keep my Rolodex strong and pay attention to who's doing good work so that when someone comes up with a need , I can say , hey , here's three people you should talk to .

Let me facilitate that introduction . Go and be well . So that was Don's real hesitation there . So it's been 12 years there .

We built this firm and after Don passed away in 2016 , and we knew that there were going to be some things that we would do fundamentally different once he could not be or elected not to be , some things that we would do fundamentally different once he could not be or elected not to be involved in our work any longer .

And so we were on a plan to exit that for some time and very good , open-ended conversations with Don , with his family , just like hey , we've got to be able to ride a bike on our own here . And so we had built and successfully done that , and a year later , it was just that it was like , ok , it's time for us to pivot to that next design .

Let me finish that and again , we're part of the university , and so my role effectively reported to the university president and the board of trustees .

It's time for Chuck to have that grace flags . And so usually that orderly transition of duties is kind of a euphemism that it gets used to like oh he's , he's exiting . It was . It was really about that . Let's have an orderly transition , it can work . And I think we did that .

And so they went on to continue to do work and I went on to my do a single practice . I don't know if you ever would have met Terry , but single practice . I don't know if you ever would have met .

Again , I've got my partners that I will pull in on projects or they'll pull me in on a project . But that's the nature of it . What kind of work is that exactly ? Today , yeah , yeah .

So really the core of what I've been doing the last couple of years is kind of a fractional model , and so I had friends that were doing fractional CFOs , fractional CMO , and so I was like , what would it look like to be a fractional strategic officer , fractional operational type person , in the same kind of way ?

And so a big part of what I do when I'm really in the mix , that I want to manage around my time , is one or two of those at any given time , is just where I'm kind of I'm a de facto member of the executive team , sure , with again , there's work to be done , and then you're going to invite me to leave one day , and so everything I do is like I'm

going to point out watch out for that pothole , right , let's not step in . That , you know , twist our ankle right . Or hey , let me introduce to you a tool or a resource that I think can help take you .

I've got a client right now and it's really about growth , and I said and so every time I'm talking to their team , I said you need to understand any conversation we're having . Understand the . The banner over my head is growth enablement , because you're awesome at what you do today Over the next 10 years , you expect accelerated growth .

You're not designed for that , you're designed for what you are now . Let's get , let's get enabled so that when you do grow it can actually happen in a healthy , constructive , more efficient way than you know . Just the sort of some of the chaos and things that can can ensue in that way , and so that's the big part .

I say , right , so a fractional role , still do some executive coaching , um , and for you know , and you know , coaching for me , I tell people all the time if you ask , and you know there's , there's any brands or versions of what that is .

For me it's sounding board , you know , I call it just like hey , there's a ceo out there that they just need somebody to knock ideas off of and it's safe and it's know it's not going to go anywhere and it may be harebrained , but let's work through that , right , you know . So sounding more . And or accountability , right , like , I just need somebody to .

You know , no one's going to as the business owner who's going to hold me accountable , sure , so some of them literally like I need somebody who's like oh man , my meeting with Chuck's in next week , I've got to get that thing done , that I told him I was going to do right . So there's people that know they need that built in .

So part of my is that the other part of it is more developmental , particularly for people who are kind of moving into that executive role and you've got to shift your focus from some of the day-to-day tactical stuff into more of the long range strategic stuff . And how do you build some of that muscle when you've never been forced to think it ?

And so we'll put in some , you know , develop some resources , that just basically to build muscle , so that executive coaching . And then there's an isolated project here there I was in low rock last week doing a one-day workshop with the team on a very specific topic and so that's the mix of where I spend my time .

There's a way you've got to be , you know , to maneuver and to execute in that kind of environment , to be successful and to get things done , which is very different than like some of the things you write . Like , when I read your book , mark , you know it was like okay , as an entrepreneur in a startup , you've got to be nimble in your everything .

You're in everything all the time , right ? Sure , it's a very different model Small privately held . Small privately held quick decision-making versus okay , we've got to get all the stakeholders on board . All that stuff's different , right ?

When you push against scale , a lot of clients will say , hey , we came out of big business , we came out of corporate .

I understand your experience within it and why you feel that way , but there are some necessary things around scale that you have to create discipline , that create rhythms that allow you to grow your business in a way that's not just this Wild Wild West kind of gunslinger approach , sure , and so starting .

But I mean I think that over time I just realized that's actually not what I actually genuinely want , right . I mean , could I do it If I really worked at it ? I probably could , because I think it's kind of a fun challenge to navigate and grow and get into that . But yeah , at the end of the day I don't know that I would even like that .

I couldn't do it today with my attitude , by any stretch of the imagination , right .

Just because you can doesn't mean you should , because you're actually more valuable to the business over here . Yeah .

Okay , actually , my highest and best use is over here and I'm going to have enough discipline to say no , someone else , I'm going to bring someone else to do that Right , who maybe is , maybe he's better than me , probably better , and likes it better and likes it better .

And so part of my personal leadership philosophy is actually I want to surround myself with people who are smarter than me . Hell yeah , I want to surround myself with people who know things . They're better at their job than I could ever be at that job Doesn't mean I couldn't . We can figure it out .

Smart enough , we can grind through it , sure , but it's going to suck the life out of me .

Yes , bro , like big time , because they're not going to . Just not everyone does things in the best interest of the overall people in the company .

Yeah , I mean it's crazy , but anyway , I was going to say this too .

I'm sure what it is today , but at the time it was the largest manufacturing facility KCA in the world , and so I had logistics and planning and finance and you know , environmental and press engineering and quality and , like these functions , right , all supporting operations .

I had worked at that point and held jobs in four of the eight disciplines that were reported to me . That's good . I had not worked in the other four . And what I realized fairly early I was a better leader in the areas I had no experience in Because I asked better questions . Yeah , I got it . I had to understand .

I had no experience in , really , because I asked better questions , yeah , I asked , I had to understand , I had to seek to . And so because where I was , what I was prone to do in the four where I had experience is , hey , that's not how you do that , that's right . Like this is the way I would do it .

And and and because I knew that I had experienced , I had done well in it and I was like no , I like this works . The , the , the risk of micromanaging and being on top of people was much greater Interesting . Where I was a better facilitator and question asker and like , okay , I hear you , but how does that connect here ?

And so we were discovering stuff and I think I was a better leader to the four functions I had no experience in . That was my story . I don't think it's necessary , I wouldn't claim that as universal truth , but I saw that about myself .

Where I had done the job , I had to actually work to give that person space to do the job the way they wanted to do it , knowing the outcome still mattered .

I totally understand the benefits of that kind of thinking and that kind of a process .

And when you say seasons , are we talking about the seasons in the leader's life , or are we talking about the seasons of the organization where it is ?

And so a couple years ago , ceo comes to me and we've been doing some work over a period of time with a group of leaders to build capacity because , basically , think of it , everything's favorable if you're on a bicycle , like in northwest arkansas we love our bikes , right well , you're you're , you're downhill , you're wind at your back , you know you're in a

peloton , you're going , everything's favorable , and that's the only time you can do 45 miles an hour or faster on a bicycle and it's just like this group of leaders was getting their capacity up , was the rate limiting factor to more market , more share , more success . So that had been the focus Almost overnight . It's as if everything changed .

Everything that was a tailwind is now a headwind . We're not going downhill , we're going uphill . We're not riding in a group , we're riding solo . So now you're not riding 45 , you're riding like 10 . And so the CEO came to me and said it's a different season and we have to lead differently .

So let's shift our focus , because the market , it was external forces that had caused it . Um , somebody moved their cheese , somebody quote another book another book we have to leave . But credit to her . She said we've got to lead differently , We've got to change our focus . I said , yeah , you're right , and so there was .

You know , part of what I do in my work again is I'm a curator of tools and books and resources , so I don't try to do too much original work .

It's just like here's a smart person that has a great idea on that , or here's a cool tool , so I I'm curating and there was nothing out there on this idea of seasons that I could find short of it's a brilliant short of spring summer , fall , winter , yeah , and I'm like I have not gone to the table with spring , summer , fall , winter , like that would be

almost offensive to most entrepreneurs and most leaders . I know , like your , your complex , your business is way more complex than those four seasons . So let's . So I said . I said tell you what ? Um , let's try this , let me , let me build a model out , and I don't have to be right , I just have to provoke thinking .

I just have to get your group talking about it . You good with that , and so credit to her . She trusted me and she said yeah , let yeah . So again , put it that way it's more of a logic sequence that says , okay , the seasons come and go , right , there's a definite start and there's a definite end . They've got some duration right .

And so what's true in this season ? Parts of that were not true before , and things that were true then are not true now , and so that's kind of how you define a season , right , so okay . So , in that , what characterizes the season we're in ? Let's understand what was no longer true is now true , like what characterizes that ?

And so , given that , what's our focus , be what's our leadership focus , be what's the message we want to send , and be what's the message we want to send , uh , and sort of the tone , what's the in the leadership role . Ultimately , it all gets to what do I need our people to believe in this season ?

I need you to believe something , because that belief is going to inform your assumptions , your judgment . Yeah , I need you to exercise , uh , your buy-in to the new direction , like I need you to believe something . So that's the idea , yeah , of the book . And so what I , what I , what I try to do , is put in some representative season .

My disclaimer up front is like it's not an all-inclusive , like there are seven seasons . It's not because there's any magic to that number . It was like it's time to be done . Smart people are going to get the point , but it is designed to cause a leader or a group of leaders , a senior team , to go . Okay , what season are we just coming out of ?

What did we just move into ? What season are we in what season are we going to ? And let's talk about that , let's reflect on that , like what is true now ? What should our focus be Ultimately ? What do we need are people to believe ? And so there's a conversation I was having with a colleague who's trying to help a group in a merger situation .

So there's a chapter on mergers and acquisitions . You guys have been through those kinds of things and you know so . There's some examples , some case study , types of things . Okay , in a merger and acquisition situation , what was true ? What's now true ? Ultimately , ultimately , what do we want our people to believe ?

And you know , in that one it's kind of like well , we need people to believe that we're better together .

There was a design to it and it made that assimilation of not just their manufacturing assets and their brands but the working got better because we understood okay , we called it Scott Heritage and KC Heritage type stuff that we needed to understand but understanding it .

The point is in this particular case and why we were having the conversation last week was do the people believe that they're better together ?

Is there cause there's personal jockeying and like who lost their job and who didn't , or who gets to like jobs for everybody , okay , but like why do you get that job and why did we keep your logo and why did we , you know , like all that stuff ? Yeah , um , how do you get people through that ?

Read it and you've kind of explains the logic . Then pick any one of the other six . Yeah , chapter seven , one of the seven . Read it and you've kind of got the idea .

But then probe or provoke the reflective work that needs to be done to go okay , so let's write our own season , let's fill out this matrix on ourselves and then let's focus there as leaders . So that's the idea of the book , that's why I wrote it . It's where it came from .

It's been fun to see how it applies in different contexts and what people are doing with it . So , yeah , one day I'm going to write a book . Well , you talk about it but you never really think you'll do it . But when that became a after , it did work . So I didn't have to be right right .

But like I'm with that client group and it kind of worked , I was like , yeah , that could be a book , like that could have value outside of just this one client . And so , yeah , it could be a DIY kind of thing , it can be a workshop , it could be just reflection , whatever , but that's .

You could take that and say , well , what's our situation ? Well , our situation is so you could blow that out . They're much more the directing and supporting style of leadership that the model talks about .

Not to get too nerdy on that , but the contrast I'm saying is like let's just actually have a wider time horizon and a bigger scope than just maybe a finite task in this moment . And how do I need to lead ? So I'd say they're related ideas , but this one is zoomed out a bit .

You know it's a later in life where you become more of a teacher and a coach . And I remember there was a time I was still at SodaQuest at the time and I couldn't figure out why some of our younger early career team members were struggling with certain ways in which we worked and I had by then had done most of the roles on our team .

I had a pretty good idea of things and they're like Chuck , you know . The team members say Chuck , you know all this because you've been here that long , you know it . You do it , and we were not a big team , we were maybe 30 people at our highest point , so a little bit of scale but still pretty nimble .

And so they were like , chuck , you've got to become a teacher of the business , like you've got to . You know , connect the dot to y , and so I think , later in life , you know that ability to move from doer to the leader of the doers .

You know there's there's a whole one of the great books , again from curation is a leadership pipeline and there's there's these stages that leaders go through , uh , to the enterprise level , and you know what you , what you , when you're leading an enterprise thought level , like I'm thinking about all of the business , not just a unit or not just my team or not

just my role , right , and so part of that happens with scope . But I think where you're going , mark , with just the , the seasoning of a leader , I'm taking my style and , but I've got new experiences to add to it .

Um , absolutely , and I think it's the , the awareness for me someone had to point it out that , chuck , you're in a now , in a season of leadership , that , um , you've got to be more of a teacher of the business you're just going to respond differently to problems .

You know it's helpful . But I mean , man , I look back . Good mentors are helpful , very much so , but there's a time capacity there , like you could mentor me all day long , like I mentor my kids all day long . They ain't listen to really anything I say and I know as a fact that they're going to have to find out the hard way right .

They're going to run off and they're going to go to college . You're going to miss class and they're going to have to drop out of a class and it's going to have to be hard knocks a little bit for them . You know , that's an example , sure , but it's the same way I think in business , you know .

I mean , when I was 22 years old , as an entrepreneur man , I had zero clue but I was going .

And then , when I was 30 , I still there was some dumb things I did in the beginning as far as just the leadership of other people and coaching , and you know how to , how to multiply yourself and how do you build a team , and I'm still learning that stuff right . And so I mean , you know , I think that , like , are we able ?

Is a human able to train a good young person to be a true bona fide leader , to lead an organization or a team ?

My real mba was the four years I spent in wisconsin , right again inside the diaper business . That was my MBA . When I got the degree , I took the class later I was like , oh yeah , that's what we were doing back then .

What that did for me was create some intensity of of , and so I was remember one time I was , we were in the diaper business , we were running a project and it was like the second phase on this , this particular feature of the diaper and I go into my , my boss , I was a project leader and I was like I got John , I got bad days , man , like we're going

to have to like rip it out and do it over , like that was the . That was the conclusion . Like that's what I'm bringing to the table . Right At an awesome moment . John's like had the whiteboard in his office .

He starts , like asking me questions and he starts , you know , writing down my answers , and you know , and like , at the end he's filling up his whiteboard and at the end he's filling up his whiteboard and at the end he literally walked me through that that decision would affect our quarterly earnings .

And Gary's like he did that to you too , and it was his style , right , he was teaching us . And so then , when we were , we'd find this and he would start doing the things , like , oh , he's doing the thing right . We'd get excited because we're about to learn something .

Another boss was like you know , and this whole idea of messing up and failing , Like you know , when he's like you know , understand , you're juggling a lot of balls . Some of are made of rubber , some are made of crystal , and know which ones , know which ones are which ?

Do you have the courage to let somebody fail ? Or the courage to let somebody struggle for their learning ? It takes more time , it costs more money , whatever it does , and you know the answer faster . And there's times when , like what you're talking about , like hey , do it this way .

I'm like I don't , I don't want to see it . Yeah , no , it's not , I don't want to see it . I don't want to remain with anything . I want to see what the team does , because this is a place that it's got a high enough of a risk that they're nervous , right , and it's important for the business , but it's not so bad .

That was a a completely unnecessary emotional experience for me like I didn't have to go through that , had I had a good lens on of , just in , of . Hey , man , like it's gonna take some freaking time , bro , if I could talk to my younger self .

Shut up , take the time , learn from some of these mentors and , understanding that I go through this , but keep your fire . Keep your fire lit , but surround yourself , reach out for help . It's going to take a decade , honestly , for you to kind of develop the things and some of the tools from learnings , from coaching , from mentorship .

Yeah , so they , and that's why , when you start turning the corner of a little bit more maturity , that things start happening for you in your business . I mean , having billionaire and millionaire young folks is an anomaly , right . I mean , it's not the norm . No , that's right .

You're looking at a press release out of millions and millions of people that are younger , that are living actually in a very frustrated existence .

It's a typical thing and I just think it's a disservice if that's not communicated , because you should be a little patient with yourself , know that's going to take some time and that you can't read a book now and then be a good leader , and you really don't even know what the definition of leadership is like it's a very .

I've got some really excellent , including you two , and but like some of these other folks like mr squist yeah , like don tyson , like sam won't like doug mcmillan , all of them it's like bro like you know , latrice walkins , all of them are just . It's like they are legit .

Yes , like the things that they think , I don't even know , I'm not even think about , um , yeah , I , I hear you .

And just how you would be able to navigate that kind of business , to get to that level . It's beautiful . I mean , you've obviously got to be really smart and really good at dealing with people . You have to be so in tune .

My older self is like hey .

They're good at what they do , but they give room for other people to be good at what they do , what you were talking about earlier , mark . I'm sorry , eric , that would be the meanest thing . I'd call you all day man .

No , it's fine , but they make space , they make capacity for other people to shine , and they know they need it , particularly at that scale Now let's talk about a different point of view on that .

My only problem is that when we start looking at them as management researchers let's take , for example , good to great yeah , yeah , yeah , where we've got these corporations that have tremendous inertia Right and tons and tons of basically unlimited resources Right , and all these different engines and spark plugs out there firing , okay .

And then we start looking at a Doug McMillan or a Shelley or whomever we want to talk about go , this is the way to be . Okay , now you got a 30 person company right . Okay , there , there's some .

My contention is that a lot of that , simply , while it is sort of an idealized , ideal state in a way , and they're perfect- okay , yeah it's like is that gonna fly over ?

If I'm starting a business and I have just zero resources , zero employees , I mean I don't necessarily need to try to go be a really great leader , I need to go freaking drive some sales bro .

We have got to put some points up . Well then , all of a sudden you start getting some traction and then you go the model calls it go-go or the wild years Like everything's on between , like we're over and up , we're like , yeah , I can do that , I can do that , I can do everything .

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And then there's the interdependent piece . That is okay , they're thinking about the whole thing .

So you build a team that has actually all four there and , and I think a startup and an entrepreneur can get there right at the right season . They need to get there , otherwise they're going to have a gap , they're going to struggle in some of those right they'll , they'll peak out .

They age too quickly , they just , you know , and it's just like they never hit what they could be because here's the one phenomenon phenomenon though , that I'm curious if you've ever observed , okay , and this one I've experienced myself and I've certainly witnessed it , and that is , let's say , your business grows , your organization grows , it matures , it starts taking

on the structure and you've got professional management in some of the different disciplines that you're not great at . Okay , whatever . Yeah , you get to a certain stage where you know you got good finance and accounting , good it , somebody running operations , somebody you know doing all the things that a business needs to do , the . What happens when they are ?

Those people decide they don't need the entrepreneur anymore . The entrepreneur is bad , he's a threat . He's a threat to our order . Okay , get rid of the entrepreneur .

I could be a soda project , or a soda this , or a soda that .

But here's the flip side of that coin , though , mark is when the entrepreneur , that entrepreneurial founder , won't let go , can't let , can't let go holding on too tight . And everybody in the building like defers , because we just love him so much .

We love her and you've kept and now we're not willing to tell her or him because we don't want to hurt their feelings . We have so much respect and so much deference . Yeah , or fear , or fear . Yeah , right , that's that's . And now the thing the emperor has ? No , and no one's willing to tell that . Does that person right and so ?

Yeah , that's an argument their grandfather never did that or whatever right .

Right , you know it's the , it's had the tone you set and sort of some some disciplines you exercise to allow that that succeeding generation to be who they are and bring the skill they bring , and they're doing things that the founder could never have dreamed , right .

And I think there's a lot to it and all that and how and how you're particularly in family business , how you , how you do that .

I always thought one of the biggest problems family businesses have is good people don't want to work there because they assume that the other family members who are there are going to be treated better than they are . And even if it's not the case , that's the sort of implicit assumption .

Yeah , seasons , seasons in leadership yeah , um , and as far as being able to reach you , what is your contact ?

No , okay where's it going to go , and then you come back . So it's a fun lesson , it's informative and you guys are a good team .

. And that this has been another episode of Big Talk About Small Business .

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