¶ Business Journey and Great Game
all right , everybody . Uh , we're back again with another episode of big talk about small business , and I'm here with my buddy , eric howerton , and a very special guest , brian markowicz , and uh , r Ryan is up there in Canada . How goes it there , eh ?
It goes pretty good sir .
Good job , Mark . Can we talk about projects today ? I know that's another Canadianism , isn't it ?
We can talk about whatever you'd like . I'll just follow along .
Ryan is kind of like Eric and myself . I think he's done pretty much everything . He's got many different ventures he's been involved with , and , if he's anything like Eric and myself , we've lived multiple lives , yes . And so Ryan , though , has has some , some businesses that I think are interesting .
He's a he's a big follower of the great game of business , which is one of the few I don't want to say trendy management programs that I actually have respect for . You have respect for a program I do , because I , you know Jack Stack was the creator . He practiced open book management .
That's a really big core tenet of it , and , you know , I feel like that's almost a religion to me , um , but uh . So Ryan is a consultant , coach , provider of services related to the great game of business , helping other companies . Uh , he actually came out of the landscaping business , though .
Um has a company called creative roots , and I and I love your , your , uh , your slogan there . When you open up the webpage page for Creative Roots , why don't you tell everybody what that is ?
again , ryan , that is making neighbors jealous since 1994 .
That's awesome . I do love that .
It kind of doubles as our brand promise . When I went through that branding process with a friend of mine , he said you've got to make your competitors think you're nuts and make you nervous . And I said well , that's , that'll do it . That's fair .
That's a good . That's a good advice .
It's funny , I you know , we just moved recently to a new house and and of course , the yard is a disaster and I'm out there working on it . You know well , you're up there in Canada , ryan . I can't get you down here , it's just a flight man . But we need a team , we need an army .
It took six guys several days just to clean all the leaves out of the place . It was a disaster , but anyway , I'm out there working in my yard and it looks like hell and I see my neighbors go by and I want to say to them hey guys , I'm normally the guy that everybody looks at his yard and says , wow , look at that guy's yard .
So give me some time over here , cause I need it .
That's not how they're looking at you right now .
You felt judged , didn't you ? I'm so judged . I've got these just like terrible beds , with enormous dandelions growing up and dead shrubs of all types planted in the wrong place . Ryan would have a heart attack . Sounds like an opportunity .
Sounds like an opportunity to me Ryan .
So tell us , though , ryan , a little bit about your journey . How did you get started in business , what were you like as a kid , what was your family situation , and what are you doing now ?
yeah , so yeah , grew up in Kelowna , british Columbia . It was a small town , maybe 50,000 people . Um , when I was born and raised here , starting in 1969 , and , um , yeah , went to high school , played some sports , uh , was a little wild , you know , but I , I I really enjoyed the self-improvement side of things .
You know , I was always listening to Jim Rohn and Brian Tracy and , you know , dan Kennedy all these guys and reading books and I thought to myself that one day that would be kind of cool to use that in business and stuff like that .
So , anyways , after high school I moved down to Vancouver , british Columbia , spent a few years down there , came back here for family reasons , needed to get a job , wasn't much , weren't too many people hiring , so I said I'm going to grab a lawnmower and a truck and I'll just knock on some doors until you know , until I can make enough money to pay the rent
and , you know , buy beer on the weekends .
Big goals , love it .
And I've always been , I've always been good with working with my hands and I figured shit out pretty quickly that way . And , um , I just saw opportunities and I enjoyed it . So it grew and grew and you know , to about 2000 was 1994 is when I started , right in about 2005 .
You know it was getting a little burnt out and probably had made every management mistake in the book and I was introduced to . Just you know , hey , you got to do better business . You know the businesses got to do better business . You know the business is running . You , you're not running it .
And I just stumbled across the Great Game of Business book and I read it and I said , wow , that's for me . We hired one of their coaches at the time . You might have heard of him , bill Fage , I don't know , no big deal and yeah , we just kind of self-implemented and went on this journey .
All the just better business practices not all related to OpenBook Mark , as you know Right , it's doing good businesses about building great relationships and having more hands lifting and involving people , being a little more transparent and education , education and working harder and creating a common vision and all that good stuff .
So , yeah , I did that and I grew the business until about six years ago . I decided I was going to bring in some employees as owners . So I've brought in four employee owners to date , which has been great and and that's going great . I , I , I couldn't imagine exiting any other way and I'm I'm down to 25% of the company now .
So good job .
I'll hang on . I'll hang on to that until you know , until they kicked me out . You know they vote me off the Island type thing , or I told him as long as I'm still providing value to you guys , you can keep me . If I'm not , there's no point in me holding it back .
So and well , eric and I Eric and I both been through that several times .
So it's interesting .
It is , it's , it's . It's not easy , but you've got your son involved in the business . Is he one of the partners now , or what's the story there ?
Yeah , yeah , I was really looking to exit on a good note and then my son , my youngest son decided he wanted to get in .
So he came in and bought in just like everyone else at 30% of the company in and bought in just like everyone else at 30% of the company and I felt like I felt like the godfather you know I was just out and they sucked me back in , type thing and but I really enjoy it .
You know it's , it's really cool to see him take things farther and and he's a much better leader than I ever was by nature Is he running the business now ? He runs the maintenance end of things . Okay , he'll run . You know 12 , 13 employees in there and you know he'll do you know a million , four million five in sales in the maintenance side .
Yeah yeah , now you guys do a lot of installation too , though .
Yeah , design build , yep , is about two thirds of the business . Uh huh , yeah , design built is about two thirds of the business . Yeah , so it's still a . It's still a small company . We're just North of you know , 3 million with some higher aspirations .
We really wanted to make sure that when we did decide to push for growth , that that we were ready for it If we had the buy-in that's . We wanted better problems and not bigger ones , so to speak .
So now you have no business education at all , is that right ?
you just learned it all on the job all the shovel yeah , all on the shovel no , and you know , I I always surrounded myself , um , with some pretty good people and I , I listen , I listen to people that were where their stories resonate with me .
And even the stuff , you , even the interactions we've had , mark , or you know , they're very meaningful to me because you know , a lot of the stuff you write about in your book was fantastic oh , thanks man I think he's stalking me . I think you know like they get .
Some of those experiences are very similar across people who have , you know , rolled with the punches and built a business .
Well , yeah , and now you got into real estate development as well . How's that going ?
Yeah , Well , at this point in time it's not the greatest experience . I think our city wants us to live in Whoville . I mean , everything's got to be so perfect , you know , and I've got a corner lot and I'm only subdividing off one property , so I'll have the two .
One will have an existing house but you know it's the curbs and the sidewalks and I had to upgrade 300 feet of water main right up the road . Oh yeah , fire hydrants , street signs , lamp posts , it's a thing .
Been there , my friend Been there .
I bet you have . I should have called you before I started .
Do they do any cost sharing there with things like water and sewer ?
Well , they have what's called a latecomer thing . So for 15 years they'll administer the file , and anybody who joins in will have to pay a portion pro rata to the size of their lot or whatever they're doing . So we'll see how that goes .
Well , you got my sympathies on that one . We've been there and we're out of that now , thank God . Eric's got a project he's doing right now he's having a tremendous amount of fun with . He's got six or seven acres on this hillside , yeah I'm getting progress done , though .
Finally are you ? Yeah , I really am , it's looking good it's good . Yeah , you need to go out there and check it out . It's ready for seeding now and then . Then we'll be getting the concrete in the next few weeks and so hopefully it'll turn out well big development project for eric , yeah so .
So tell us now , ryan , um what else are you doing ? What's the how does the coaching business of great game of business work out , and are you specialized in serving other landscape contractors ? I , I did notice that that was one of the thrusts .
So yeah , it's , you know honestly , you know business is business , is a bunch of people doing stuff and and . But I just happen to have some credibility in the landscape , in the green industry , and I have a connection with the Landscape Management Network , lmn , and so you know , I don't know what I'll cross-promote , but this is something I really believe in .
So I have coached some landscape business owners . I've also coached a countertop manufacturer in Atlanta and worked with , you know , a real estate company and development company in Calgary . So it's not just that . But I find that people kind of want to stick to their industry , even if I'm not teaching them .
I don't want to talk about the type of lawnmowers we use and stuff much . It kind of gets in the way of teaching people how to do open book management . But I'm pretty open to that and I don't take on a lot . You know a couple of clients every six months for a six-month engagement , I see yeah .
So what do you say to people , small business owners who say , well , open book management wouldn't help me , Our people don't understand that stuff .
I'd say , yeah , of course they don't understand it . They were never taught it , so it's I . I . Just for me it was all about I don't want my players on the field trying to make plays when they don't understand the game , and they don't understand understand the scorecard of the game , and so you know .
And of course you get the naysayers and you get the people who think they have something to hide . Then you get the other people who think you know well what happens if they find out we're not doing well Right , they already assume all that .
Exactly .
¶ Success in Business and Personal Growth
I always say if you're doing well , they think you're doing far better than you are , and if you're not doing well , they think you're ready to go out of business .
Yeah , it's right . So either you train them , you know , either you teach them and they and they leave , or you , you know , you don't teach them and they stay . I mean , I don't know what's worse . Yeah , actually I do .
I do know what's worse , but you know , I think the real , the real reward for me is seeing , you know , seeing someone who joined us at 18 , right out of high school , and at 26 , he becomes a partner .
Yeah .
And , and he's running the meeting and he's stoked about being there and he's pushing for success and he's starting to save money . And you know , these are kids that maybe came from a background that didn't have any of that Right , and so that's always , yeah , background that didn't have any of that Right , and so that's always .
Yeah , I didn't mean to interrupt you , I was just going to say I think a lot of people underestimate , though , how important that is to small business owners seeing their people succeed . That's one of your greatest feelings of accomplishment . You know , eric , and I have talked about that .
Yeah , yeah , no , I agree with you 100% on that one and I see it all the time and even small accomplishments , right ? We we do have goal setting boards per individual and they're reviewed and and in a way that we're trying to support people to achieve these goals , whether it's save up $1,000 or buy a new car or get a ski pass for the winter .
It doesn't matter how big or small People like to win , and when they win , it just makes everybody feel good . But winning has to be taught .
There's been a lot of losing in life for most people . That's an interesting point . Tell us more about that .
Well , I just think you know life isn't easy for everybody . I mean , it's a rocky road sometimes and you know , you're raised and you're told you know , don't talk to strangers or don't touch that , or you can't do that , or depends on who you are . I think I was fortunate enough to be told I could do whatever I wanted .
Then I was influenced by the right crowds and people . But that doesn't happen for everybody , and just as much as losing or not winning , I should say , can be addictive , I think winning is on the same thing . It's just a different view of what constitutes that .
I really like that a lot actually , ron . I mean I think you know we've discussed a little bit in the past too . I mean you mentioned I mean my upbringing was one of encouragement and positivity as well , for the most part right .
I mean it's positive human beings can be yeah you know , I'd say the same yeah and so , and then you as well , and that's also been stated . It's kind of interesting . There's a little bit of a thread going on here . I think that we're , you know , and I'm trying to think of an entrepreneur that I might know that actually was more in a negative scenario .
I mean , I may or may not know , but I mean , like I've known people that have been in negative scenarios growing up and there's in my experience and knowing those folks , there's a higher sense of security and certainty that they're really after , which is the opposite of entrepreneurship .
Yeah Right , that's stepping out off the ledge .
It is man . I mean you know and I didn't . That was funny . I was talking to my daughter about this this morning .
I was like I don't even remember , Like I always knew that I would land somewhere , as I was in my early entrepreneurial career , Like I mean , I didn't really have a fear of falling because I just kind of understood that I would Not , that I had backup plans , because I didn't have a backup plan , but that's probably why that's part of it .
Yeah , there was no fear of it . Plan B doesn't always work .
Burn the ships . Right yeah , when we land on the foreign soil , burn the ships . That's it . There's no going back .
I think that might be hard . I mean , if I consider somebody else's situation , it might be a little bit difficult if I didn't , you know . I mean like if I've seen a little bit more of a negative thing growing up , maybe More failure .
I'll finish that story . Growing up I don't think the positivity . Well , my parents , I know they believed in me , but the household situation was not good growing up at all Not as bad as other people's I've since found out but in that moment you think that's the end of the world .
And then you get on a life and you realize how bad some people really had it . But I think it's the outside influence . Like you know , when I got that Phoenix seminar of eight cassette tapes of Brian Tracy's from my dad's shelf , yeah , and I remember that stuck around it would get eaten by the cassette and I'd take the pencil and wind it back up .
I mean I listened to that thing until I couldn't listen to it anymore , a hundred times at least . And then , wow , and then you pick up napoleon hill's book off the shelf or you're just reading stuff , dale carnegie , or it just makes sense to you . So that and a couple key people in my life in my late teens really helped me kind of stay the track .
I've been off track a lot since then , but I always have that North Star Like you're talking about . You land on your feet .
Yeah .
There was no plan B , so it was do or die .
Yeah , I love that you're bringing up those Brian Tracy , dale , carnegie yeah , think and Grow've talked , we bring it up quite a bit , but I mean , I think that there's , I believe , a hundred percent , like I mean , in order to be in business for yourself , you got to have some kind of out of the world confidence and I wouldn't say that like it's necessarily
confidence in yourself . It's more of confidence in the , in the vision , you know , and confidence in the market need , like it's because you're going to be told no a million times . You know I mean , but I mean it's .
But listening to those types of things like what it has always helped me out with is recognizing , like a other people have are going through doubts potentially , you know , or the roadblocks and barriers and B I have my own power to choose to overcome that .
You know and think through that and I feel like in the beginning there was a lot of blind confidence Like I didn't even know . You know that .
I had confidence , but then , as I got older , you have to be a bit oblivious .
That's what I say about that . There you go . I agree . It's like you don't even know all the stuff that could go wrong .
Yeah , yeah , that's so
¶ Entrepreneurship and Business Development Strategy
true . So so , ryan , though back on on on your upbringing , you didn't go to college . No , did you ? I mean , obviously you're an intelligent guy and I'm sure you knew a lot of people who did . I'm just curious why didn't you ? What were you thinking ?
I don't know . I was going to pursue a career in the photography world and I'm glad I did , because so much has changed in that industry . Eric's a big photographer .
I have a degree in photojournalism . There you go . Yeah , it changed .
But I did spend some time down in Vancouver for a few years . I was a freelance assistant and we shot small , medium and large format Nice Studio and off-site , off-studio stuff . So it was interesting and I still carry that with me today .
So I like to do my travel photography and it's , it's uh , it's a bit of therapy for me , just me and my camera and the whatever's happening out there . When I'm out traveling , I spend with the exception of this last winter I spent the last 10 winters in Mexico , so , um , to escape the Canadian winter and get better tacos .
What could be better than Taco Bell ? I mean really , oh , come on , mark . I mean , there's a lot better . Oh man , the double-decker taco is so delicious with Diablo sauce . No , I'm kidding , I'm kidding .
I'll give you my address when I'm down there next winter . You can come down , I'll show you .
Well , you guys have those great steak frites up there . I guess that's more over in the eastern part of the country , though I think so . Yeah , that's always what I like to get when I'm in Montreal or Quebec .
Another venture you might have seen . Mark was a business partner who was a friend turned partner . We saw a failing business in town and our goal was to save this business , get it back on , teach them a little bit and then turn it back to the employees . And that was a salon and barbershop . Yeah , we started that about oh it must be 15 months ago .
We took it over and it was going to close . The doors were going to close . It was a 15-year business . It had 15 employees . Wow , it's in a heritage building in a great part of town , a really up-and-coming part of town . And so we did that . We started going through the process of open book management and teaching them about the financials .
Now they're having their weekly financial huddle . They and we're going to transition over to the previous manager who has stuck with it all .
Awesome .
Kind of an experiment . Yeah .
Now , most of those businesses , the people are independent contractors and they just rent space . I take it that's not the case in this situation .
No , they're commission based . Okay , yeah , so it's a little different model . Yeah , yeah , so it's a little different model . Yeah .
Well , it's fun seeing how these businesses that normally don't have good processes , good information , allow for employee participation and this kind of stuff . When you do that and they blossom .
I just see it it over and over again . It's such a differentiator . So I think people support what they help create it . I think that kind of says a lot of it . So when you have people involved and you're actually appealing to their , to their intelligence , yes as , yeah , that you're just going to get more out of people . Yeah .
You brought up financial huddle . I think yeah , and then we said what is that Like ? What does that mean ?
Well , I mean , at the core of what open book management means to a lot of people is that you involve and you educate and you share financial information with everybody . And so we send the financial literacy formally and informally right to the front line .
Or you've been with us 10 years , you'll join us in that monthly meeting company-wide and we'll look at the modified P&L in our case and we'll talk about that . We'll forecast out the balance of the month or the quarter and we'll look at where it sits relative to a potential profit share and we'll have discussions on how we're going to move the needle .
It's just like a huddle , just like a huddle on the field , right , you call the guys in and shit , we're down by four guys , or or ahead by four , or whatever it is it's . You know you get these discussions going and you don't tell them the answers .
So so at back on the barbershop , a hair salon . What kind of results have you gotten in the last 15 months with this 15-person business doing this ? I'm just curious , can you give us some specifics ?
Yeah , well , I think the buy-in and the level of acumen relative to where they were , where they are still actually , I mean , things have slowed down quite a bit and there's been a number . There's so many places opening . I think we're the fastest growing city in Canada so it's exploding , so you get a lot of .
We've had a lot of competition , so the financial upside has not been big yet and I'm okay , we're okay exiting before that . That'll be left for the other people . But yeah , I think just the culture has changed so much .
We weeded out some of the people who were great at their job , probably as good or better than anybody in the salon at this point , with exception of a few , of course with exception of a few , of course , but they just didn't fit the mold and they weren't team players . I think they belonged in that chair rental environment .
Yeah sure , solopreneur I hate that term , by the way . I absolutely hate that , because to me , entrepreneurship is all about building value in the business that you can extract on exit , and if you're a one-person business , you ain't got a lot of value .
No , that's right , unless you've created some sort of super widget .
Yeah , some kind of proprietary technology Something , yeah , so where do you go from here ? What are you going to do now ? You got your son in the business . You got four partners over there in the creative landscaping yeah , creative roots business . You're doing your coaching with a couple companies every six months and six months contracts .
You're going to get out of the barbershop business at some point . Where do you go next ?
interesting . I think I want to because our the creative roots landscaping is is , in essence , our living lab for how we've done business . Yeah , I want to include more of our people in helping other businesses better their outcome .
And you know , because you know Matt , who's been with me for I don't think either one of us knows the exact number of years , but it's like 17 or 18 . And you know , zach's been with us for six and Colette's been with us for six and my son's been with us well , since he was in diapers .
And I think we have using , you know , the system of great game , or even our own modified version of that . We can help a lot of businesses .
So we'll probably ramp up the coaching side and , um , I'm going to slow down on the development for now and just put this lot on the market and enjoy myself for a little bit , but there's also lots to be done within creative roots and so I can help with the business development and and and add value without having an actual job there , you know .
So you run in the coaching stuff through there .
No , okay , it's a separate business , I see . But and I argue , I wondered about that , you , you know I probably could have got some counsel , but some , some way we'll find a way to involve them and compensate everybody fairly so I'm curious as far as your internal stock sale or ownership interest I don't know what your legal form is there .
How are are you handling that ? Are you financing that to these people through payroll deduction ?
or Okay , yeah , that's a good one , that's a good question . What do you do ? And I thought it took me a long time to figure it out . Well , actually I probably didn't figure it out , you know , just talking to people and working out the details
¶ Valuation, Partnerships, and Growth Strategies
. But basically we valued the company at we found a valuation and it . But basically we valued the company at we found a valuation and it's not a market value at all . We wanted to make it easy going in , so discount for internal transition typical . Yeah , yeah , it's like two times earnings weighted three years earnings weighted to last year 50% , 30% and 20% .
That does sound low . Yeah , it was just too , and then we added on the book value of our assets , okay , so it's really low , okay , and it was okay for me . I was really the only . You can correct me if I'm wrong here , mark , but I was told , as long as it's the same going in as it is going out , you can't . There's no really right or can't .
There's no really right or real right or wrong . No one's really going to win or lose . In my case , that would . The only person that could have lost financially would be the first guy , right . So , but I didn't care about that . I love the company . It operates off of my farm . I have six acres next door .
We have , you know , a tree nursery , stuff like that on there . So , anyways , we valued that . I got to decide who was eligible for what percentage of the company and I kind of used the DEF CON countdown who's going to be the last man standing to decide who was going to get the most eligibility ?
And then they had to come up with 25% of the payment themselves . Okay , I would finance the rest and I did it at prime plus 2.5% Awesome . And they only paid that out of their dividends annually , so it didn't their yeah .
Okay .
We don't have enough , to you know , on a monthly basis , to you know , to make the . We could do it that way , but I figured the dividends would be better .
Well , the only problem with that and I've seen that model used in a lot of companies and I can certainly understand why you did it , but the problem with it ? Well , there's two issues that I've run into . If the problem with it is , well , there's two issues that I've run into .
One is if the company doesn't make any money , then the thing the plan craters , it stops . And then the other one is that equity doesn't show on the balance sheet because it's considered contingent equity . If it was just strict payments every month , then you can show all of it , whether they bought it or not , and it beefs up the balance sheet .
But that may not be an issue for you . Anyway , as long as you've been in business , you know you're not necessarily got a thin balance sheet at this point or undercapitalized .
We . You're not going to like this Mark , but we didn't invest much in marketing over the years . You're right , and which was fine . It's just the way we did business . We have actually really mostly conservative owners , but we were always profitable .
Yeah .
So we were always north of 10% in operating profit , and that was really using inputs that really using all the inputs to make sure the business was operating properly , and I wasn't desperate for the cash . I didn't have any big grand ideas of building a 7,000 square foot house or something like that .
So I did it that way and it was good , or something like that . So I did it that way and it was good . It's been very good for my soul to see those younger people be able to afford it . It's hard to get ahead these days with everything costing so much , and so they have to pay me .
The last part of that is they have to pay me 80% of their dividends annually until it's paid for . I see , then it's theirs .
So in Canada , what is the legal form of organization ? Is it similar to the US ?
It's a partnership .
Okay .
Like limited company . Yeah , I mean it's operated and I think I'll use all the right terms here but it's operated in such a consensus-based way that , you know , I don't even feel like we have partners . It just feels like we're all just one , which , you know , maybe sound a little dreamy .
I mean , we're all different but we're on the same page and I really think the open book management and the processes we go through annually to relook at the vision and rethink about what's important to Boston and look at that long-term strategic objective and involve people in finding out how we're going to capitalize and execute on those and make plans for achievement
, yeah , I think we stay close enough that the partnership has just been . To me it's been a . It's not perfect , but it's been very good .
So does your long-term vision mean growing the business ? And growing the value of the ownership stake that these individuals have .
Yeah , that's the only way that . Uh like , I don't mind having a smaller piece of pie myself because I'm just , I've got other things going and you know I've been out at 30 years . This is our 30th year .
Yeah .
But the other ones are young and you know the average . The median price of a house in our town is a million dollars .
That's a lot . Wow , that's even higher than here . It's only like $1,000 American ? I don't think so . The exchange rates , it's a lot , but it is a lot , you're right .
And so I don't mind having a smaller piece of the pie , but the other ones they need more . So the only way to get more people involved and keep our business model going is to have more hands lifting .
You have to build the pie and then dilute , dilute the , the stock , and I I think if we keep a one owner to five employee ratio as we go through this give or take yeah , you know that's just as a rule of thumb that that would that'll work well for us very good , you know a lot about this stuff no
I mean , everybody's got their idea about what that ratio of owners to employees should be . Yeah , um , I'm not wedded to any particular number . I do think it matters like what kind of business you have , too , right and um .
But I am a big fan of growth and if you do really want to , if you're , if you're serious about creating value for these people over time , then the only way that's going to happen is to grow this business yeah , yeah , we have .
we have , uh , built a a forward-looking org chart for 2028 and 2030 . Okay , and we have sales north of about 9 million for 2030 . So there is a pretty good growth plan in place at this point .
Yep .
And we're looking at it and it was interesting as we really focused on building people and development and leadership this last couple years , when we went through that you know , pin the tail on the org chart exercise with our entire team last year , we had a big one you know , the 2030 one there and he said , okay , where are you going to be next year ?
And then go over to the other one . Where are you going to be that year ? And the only people we needed to hire this year were entry level .
And I was like that was the first time in 30 years .
That's great . That's the way it should be . Yeah , and I didn't put my name up there , mm-hmm , so I'm just letting them learn and take it .
Well . That's awesome . That's such a great story . I love it .
So , ron , I don't want to get you in trouble with Mark but are you investing in marketing ?
now , we have not invested in marketing . I don't know if it's just a unique town , but there's a people crisis . We know this , it's out there . There's people , people crisis . We know this , it's out there . There's people out there .
But even just getting the people to deliver on the level of what we do we work in the luxury residential market lakefront estate , stuff like that we have clients in the maintenance that spend $4,000 , $5,000 , $6,000 a month on their maintenance one property . We do projects north of $750,000 for an install , design , build . Is that commercial or is that residential ?
All luxury ?
residential Wow .
Yeah , so this is highly accurate work and we're okay growing at a pace that doesn't get us in trouble and , like I said , we're a bit conservative , so I I get where you're coming from here , mark , I can see through those glasses what was the company in california that was the largest design build landscape contractor ?
Do you remember the name Well , valleycrest , valleycrest .
And .
Brickman . They amalgamated right Valleycrest 3.2 billion last year or something .
Yeah , one of our former junior partners . The first time we sold the company he went to Valleycrest and rose to the top of it . I think he's still there actually , whatever the successor company is called now .
Yeah , that's an amazing company
¶ Business Growth and Leadership Evolution
.
It's time for us to ramp things up , and we felt that we would , as our leadership could handle it and we were getting . We're not a burst to having some problems . We just don't want a bunch of bigger ones , we want better ones , and so I think we're there . I think we've got some really good people on board right now .
We've got the four four plus me owners and it just it . It's a different vibe when people want to be part of the company . You know ownership has be taught . The company's not worth anything if no one wants to own it .
Amen to that .
You got people knocking at the door saying , hey , can I buy in next year ? I said , well , the opportunity is going to go to the people that help grow the company . It's logic . You have to play hard . You have to be one of those leaders . If that's the case , then certainly let's grow the pie . Let's get you involved .
You know you say you don't do any marketing , but I'm you know marketing is is much more than promotion . So maybe it's not the promotion , but I'd be willing to bet I mean the product slash service and having that be exceptional . That's part of marketing .
And I would also be willing to bet that you know , just looking at your website , that you also do a lot of working visibility type stuff , like your vehicles . Are they all branded ? Yes there you go do you have .
So yeah , we're not . Yeah , I'm driving around and you know multicolored trucks here with different panels on them and stuff . Yeah , we are branded . We could do a better job on all fronts , sure . There's no question about it Matching shirts , it's just there .
Matching shirts for all ? Oh , absolutely yeah , we just got our 30th anniversary shirts .
Yeah .
Yeah , we all have matching jackets , of course , and we have can wear jean cutoffs or surf shorts to work project signage .
Do you have that for your installs ? Oh , there you go , see you're doing stuff . It's just not , sounds like , you're just not advertising yeah , you're just not advertising yeah , that's right .
Yeah , you know so I'd never been good at it . I was always good at , you know , put my head down , ass up and do the work and show people that we could do really good work and we cared a lot about what we did and we were innovative and we were creative and just put the best product out there .
Right and um there's a lot to be said for that in a crowded mature industry . Yeah , Just be good . I mean , we keep coming back to this thing , don't we ?
Yeah , it's not all about it . What you say you're going to do , yeah and do it on , I mean I'm yeah , yes , do it well .
Yes , you know , I got a friend of mine . He sold his HVAC contracting business I don't know maybe five or six or seven years ago , and he had a product that he invented and he really wanted to take , you know , spend time with that . Ultimately that didn't go where he wanted it to go .
So after his non-compete was up for the company you know , the HVAC business , he went right back in it and in two years he's bigger than he ever was before and their business practices are so tight . I just love dealing with these guys . I've dealt with a lot of HVAC contractors , but it doesn't matter what time a day I text them with a problem .
I get a response immediately and the schedule of when they're going to deal with it , and then they come out and they execute and then within an hour or two I get the bill which I pay . Okay , and it's just like they're just done . They're so , so tight , love it .
How , like , how easy is that ? You go out , you make a promise , you deliver on the promise . That's what a business is . It's a promise delivery system . Yeah , do the work , you get paid . You repeat it . You know we have on each one of our invoices . It says to the clients that said that for years you'll be happy or or don't pay .
All we ask is for a chance to make it right . Wow , I love that . And we tell that to the employees too You'll be happy or you won't stay . Give us a chance to make it right , right , so that's part of the onboarding process . That just means that we have to communicate .
You can't wait three months and say oh , I didn't , like someone missed a strip of grass when they were mowing it .
Well , that's always been my problem with conventional performance appraisal systems . I mean , I think they're idiocy . I'm going to sit down once a year and say , well , no , let's see , bob , you know , last March , eric , you really pissed me off . You know at that meeting when you like . For God's sakes , you're going to say it right away . It's just ridiculous .
Yeah , that's right . So yeah , I love that . You've got some good sayings there , ryan . Where do you come up with these things ?
I don't know , just been collecting them , you know . The other one is uh , you got a free hand with every set of hands , you got a free brain . So I like that one .
I always love that's good , I don't make this shit up with every set of hands , you get a free brain . I love that .
Don't waste it , just just your people are way smarter and you know what the problem is . I think with a lot of the , even some of the systems I'm not going to put down eos , or scaling up or or e-myth mastery , all that stuff they're great . For everything they do is , I think they don't drive . They don't drive that involvement right to the front line .
And what I see now is when I treat the person who walks through the door and I have these conversations , I talk business with the people I'm in business with , right Even the brand new person , like that level of belief in them gets a different result . It's , it's , it's unbelievable . You just don't know who can pick this stuff up fast .
You can't look at a person and and understand if they'll get it or not .
Well , you know it . It to me it's . It's not even talking about . Yeah , just talking to the people and treating them like they're humans gets a totally different response , because then they're like oh , you know , ryan actually cares about me . Ryan's a good guy . I don't want to let him down here . I don't want to screw him .
You know , as opposed to boy , ryan's an asshole . Every time he comes through to the job site , he never says anything to us or he acts like he's pissed off .
Oh , I've been that guy . You know , A lot of years being that guy .
Oh , I did that too .
If that's the top , then you know I'm lonely at the top saying it's just , it isn't , it isn't right , right .
Yeah , it seems like , brian , like you really like , when did you have this ? You know , if that's the way you used to be , when did you start having this kind of conversion type thinking right about getting you know , really seeing the free brain like you're talking about right , because it sounds like maybe you were .
You know , if you're like what I was and sometimes I'm still very guilty of it is like I'm just charging ahead and like I'm just , you know , I see it , I see the answers and I'm all taking consideration . When did you really start ? Because it seems like you're on the other side of the spectrum now with what you're doing .
I still catch myself daily , especially if I'm working unnaturally , like I have been the last few months . Just I've been putting in a lot and , and so you get a little burnt out , you get a little tired . You know you're a little short on patience , um , but I had a great , great week with the guys this .
This week I went out twice and did some plant layouts and worked with them on on the field , um , which is great . But sometimes I catch myself not being there . But I think it's just been a progression
¶ Life-Changing Influence of Ari Weinswig
. Eric , to answer your question , a big influence in my life was Ari Weinswig of Zingerman's in Ann Arbor , michigan . His four books are life-changing . His Power of Beliefs book is off the charts . Good . And so just listen to Jack Stack and just you know . And using the score , I'll give you a good example of how you can try to .
I remember one good one where I was emotional about something and I looked at the scoreboards as I passed by . I'll tell you this . So Fridays has always been a big day for us . Luxury residential market in a vacation town .
Yeah .
You know , fridays I would landscape until the headlights had to go on if I had to , because everything had to be perfect for the weekends . And one day I wasn't out . My teams were rolling in about three o'clock and I saw three trucks rolling into the compound . How can that be ? How could that be what ?
You can't find any more work , what the hell's going on here ? But I just happened to be walking down the stairs and I glanced over at the scoreboard Like we have big visual scoreboards that that team meets around and forecasts out and reports the actuals and and I saw they were ahead , they were ahead and it was . It gets hot here .
We were like we were north of 100 degrees that day it was friday . I know they had been pushing and I said to myself after seeing the scoreboard well they , they know the score , they're ahead , they're ahead of plan . Well , they , they know the score , they're ahead , they're ahead of plan , they need a break .
And I I just giggled to myself and say I took it out of there . So there's a lot of reminders and books and this type of thing and talking to others and sometimes my son's got to pull me aside and say dad , you can't act that way it's , it's , all it's all that stuff right like I'm a typical .
You know , dad , you can't act that way , it's , it's all , it's all that stuff . Right , like I'm a typical , you know charge forward type guy the best thing about this is that . It gives me a little hope for myself , I think , you know , because I'm like , yeah , I mean it's just it's you know , I think it's good .
Though I think it's good , the audience has got to understand it too , right . I mean , like you know , we're there's just , business is so complex and it's so . There's so much variables to it .
Because there's people , and people are complex , yeah , and they bring their whole selves to work , yeah , man .
And then you're just a team of collection of people in their own selves , right , you know , I mean . And then , like , everybody has their level of stress . And then what you bring from home yeah , what you're dealing with with everybody has their level of stress . And then what you bring from home what you're dealing with with all that kind of stuff .
I mean , you know , or if you're just eager and ambitious , you know like I get pretty hasty . You know like I want to be where I want to be . It's probably going to take 10 years to develop it , but I want to be there right . Freaking , I have zero patience .
I understand for the whole , like I find myself just being honest about myself , but I've been catching myself lately in and recognizing how freaking frustrated I stay at like things like not happening . You know fast enough .
Oh , I share that with you , are you , do you ? Of course you know that I mean it's all about speed everything . Speed everything up . Okay , speed up . How to making speed up everything ?
everything goes better the faster you go but then I like , when I stay so frustrated , so frustrated constantly , I don't even like my . I get on my own nerves . I'm like , dude , you're getting on your , I'm like you're getting on my own nerves .
I understand that I do .
You're going to like the book I'm going to write here . Soon I'll send you a copy .
Oh cool .
It's called . It's you right ? Yeah , I'm going to send it to you . You're just going to open up . It's going to be a mirror on the first page . That's it .
That's it man , it's you .
Yeah , it's so true it is . I do have to slow down . That's why I'm going fishing with three high school buddies right now .
Oh yeah , what kind of fishing you down northern pike fishing for rainbow trout . Yes , do you . Do you know ? Are you able to do pike fish up there ?
yeah , yeah , not in , not where we are . Yeah , yeah , but um , we could do salmon and and and rainbow and kokanee and stuff like that but and lake trout , but you know , the ocean's just four hours and if you go north you can do pike fish .
Yeah , yeah . I went up there and did some pike fishing a couple years ago , Did you yeah ? With a group of guys . It was freaking .
Northern Alberta .
No , saskatchewan , saskatchewan , yeah , saskatchewan , yeah , it was awesome , but my favorite was catching walleye . Oh yeah , yeah , it was awesome , but my favorite was was ketchum walleye .
Oh yeah , oh man , beautiful dude , we used to get those up in wisconsin .
They had northern and walleye up there lee and northern wisconsin cooking it right on the bank an hour and a half later . It was freaking , unbelievable , I mean . But like , like after four days of eating fried fish and fried taters , though like you start kind of like you're like , okay , I'm ready eating fried fish and fried taters .
Though like you start kind of like you're like , okay , this is .
I'm ready for some steak and fried taters .
That's right .
I mean , I never get tired of those things Like is there a piece of broccoli around anywhere ? You know , just to kind of scrub this out . But man , it was so beautiful it was awesome .
So , other than the fishing , though , ryan , what do you do like personally to keep yourself sane and so calm , as you clearly are , okay ?
What do ?
you do ? We need to know . Is it like you smoke weed every night ? What is it you do ? Gave that up a long time ago .
That's great Lord .
Well , I'm just curious , I couldn't be . If I did that , I'd get nothing done . But I mean I , there are people who do it . I'm just saying .
I thought he was just poking at me being a Canadian there .
No , I'm not poking at you .
What do ?
Canadians smoke weed . I love Canadians , oh , I'm sure , I'm sure Listen a lot of well , go on , I'm sorry .
What do you do ? I don't , you know . I'm always on a project , I'm always renovating something . I'm always , you know , hanging out I don't mind having a beer with my neighbor , you know and hanging out , and I love Mexico . So it's three months a year for the last 10 years .
That's a long time to take . Everett , do you do that in the summer or would you do it in the winter ? Set , miss winter yeah .
So this last uh in 2024 was the first January , february , march . I saw one day in Canada in 10 years , wow . So so do you have a place down there ? No , I was always renting and I'm kicking myself now , you know .
Yeah , I've got friends that have places down in Mexico and they're always telling me you're going to come down .
but where do you go in Mexico ? We never do .
So I mean I've seen a lot . I've seen a lot of the country , more of that country than I've seen Canada . But I was based out of Puerto Vallarta mostly , but I've been all across the country and inland and I've got a lot of favorite experiences . Nice , it's fun . I love the insanity and the food and just the way it is .
I'm trying .
You know what I like about it and this is what goes back to my comment about I think our city wants us to live in Whoville here . Yeah , like it doesn't have to be freaking perfect . Yeah , like I mean I get it . You don't you got to have certain compaction under the roads and sidewalks and stuff .
There's standards yeah it's got to be deeper than six inches , you know , and all that stuff and uh , but it it's um , I think . I think in some respects we're moving too fast for for where we're at and as a race , as people like there's , it's very hard for people to keep up . Yeah and uh , does that make sense ?
yeah , no , totally I , I totally get what you're saying . Like we've made it so complex in simplicity .
There's freedom in simplicity and there's life in that , in that yeah , so I mean , I love that about mexico and yeah , you know , not that they don't have any safety standards yeah , what , depending on where you go but my old boss at one of the engineering firms I worked at when I was very young used to tell me when he goes to mexico , he goes never stay
above the second floor .
He goes in any building . He goes because you may need to get out . The fire standards are very low and he goes just be ready to escape . But anyway , I guess it depends on where you are there , but yeah , I could see that .
I could see that for sure . I don't know . There's a certain freedom and insanity in it , and I don't mind the cowboy days . That's one good thing about the landscaping . We're not governed like like you are on everything else with civil and construction stuff like that . We haven't reached that , yeah .
So we have a lot of freedom , yeah , which I love well , that's good .
Well , listen , ryan , we've run out of time . We could sit here and talk all day , but you've got to go fishing and we have to go back to our jobs , eric and myself .
There's a lot to get done , not enough time .
I've got a lot to do today , buddy . I'm hanging art today , oh man , which is always fun .
Yeah , you should post some pictures of the place you've been working on Mark .
Post them on LinkedIn or something . I'd like to see that and I'm really so appreciative're applying it now in other contexts , which I think is going to be very gratifying for you . You know , when I see that it works in other settings besides your own traditional business .
Yeah , yeah . Well , you know , mark , I mean that's , I read your . I read a column that you had written or an article on open book management and I said well , open book that you had written , or an article on open book management and I said , well , open book management is not proprietary to great game . They packaged it .
I mean , they're kind of the pioneers of it . I get it , and so that's why I jumped on board there , and so I didn't have to rebuild all that .
Sure .
I'm not an expert teacher , but having the tools and the body of work behind me as I do , that is really good , and there's some great people in that organization , so I'd love being part of it ?
Yep , Well , we're glad to have you on the show , and if anybody wants to reach you , how should they best contact you ? Ryan , Do you have an email address ? Website ?
Yeah email's great . It's ryan at rmarkca . That's R-M-A-R-K dot C-A .
Okay .
And then go to my website , rmarkca , and see a little bit about that . Or , if you're into the landscaping , check out creative roots landscapingcom . And yeah , I'd love to hear from anybody who's interested in doing what we're doing here .
Great , great Well , thanks so much . And uh we really appreciate you being on the show , and until uh next week .
This has been another episode of big talk about small business job ron , did I get that right .
Yeah , man you might be an official outro for us now yeah , that was good , we had a troika going there .
All right , everybody , we'll see you next week . Thanks , thanks again .
Thanks a lot , Ron . Good to meet you , man .
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