¶ Small Business Insights With Paul Esterer
okay , everybody .
Um , we're back with another episode of big talk about small business I don't know how this is gonna go today I really don't because we have a fantastic guest today . Don't we mark ? We do . But I swag today , don't we Mark ? We do , Mark Swig .
I feel like we're all under the influence or something .
I kind of feel a little buzz right now . Can I speak yet ? No , go ahead .
Our guest at the studio today is Paul Esterer who is a leading local real estate magnate is a leading local real estate magnate and he's going to tell us more about himself and his background and his business and how you all can be more successful .
Paul basically comes from the .
Gilded .
Age You're a tycoon .
I appreciate that . You're darn right .
Yes , thank you , eric , I'm going to speak with Mark most of the day . Thank you , lord , listen , we already that was good .
That's one of those hidden funny moments in our show .
Well , we got started today before this show , because I may be like a sixth cousin to Paul's wife or something Related . It's not that I'm 23 and me but anyway it's awkward it is . It is awkward . It's not awkward .
We'd be related . I'm proud , I'm proud , I'm proud , I don't want to be related to Eric .
I'm proud of your daddy . I don't want to be related to Eric , okay , anyway so , yeah , I'm not related to Eric .
I was at a funeral recently , though , and the guy officiating it his name was Eric Howerton . That's hilarious .
Isn't that strange ? That is Boom . Okay , is that a punchline ?
Yeah , that's funny , he wasn't , I thought . Is that Eric's daddy ? No , I think he's younger than Eric , but anyway . So , paul , let's get serious now . Yes , I appreciate that . Tell us a little bit about yourself and your background and how you got into the business that you're in .
Anytime I talk about myself , I have to talk about my parents and where I came from , the context , and I'll just give as a background because they were interesting humans that I'm super proud of . But when your dad and mom met in an opera at the University of Michigan , he spoke seven languages .
They went to live in Japan and Zurich and from Germany , they were into the arts and theater , but also my dad wanted to create a small business . He started a winery . He got tired of the work . He was an MBA from Michigan as well and cryptologist for the Navy on the side , because he spoke Russian and German and Japanese and Chinese and all these languages .
That's cool , wow . But , paul , I got to stop you right there .
Stop it how did you end up doing real ? I got to stop you right there . Come on man , Stop it . How did you end up doing real estate in Arkansas with that background ? Complete disappointment .
Complete disappointment Come on .
You're so disappointing .
The disappointment thing is supposed to come at the end of this . I'm sorry .
I'm just so what happened ?
That's a fair point . Have you ever thought about that ? Have you ever ?
thought about how your podcast is over . I thought you were a successful guy , but you're a tech background . I mean , my God , look , you want to hear about our parents .
So I know , but so .
Our parents are proud of us .
I mean we raised the bar .
Well , no , but what I want to show people is how to continue to lower the bar , because what I do want to say is both my grandparents again one was at Yale , they're all PhDs and so my dad always felt that he did not do enough because both his parents between they met .
High achievers .
So yeah , my grandmother decoded at the University of Michigan the materials during the war for military secrets because she spoke German and she was a research at Michigan , and so my dad always said like he was always .
This goes to the context of why I'm a very active person 24-7 , love creativity , but also have this finance side and resonate with community , because those were like it was helping others , but also knowledge included .
So it was just that that got me to a point of I decided to leave Ohio to go to Texas to school at SMU , and when I met there I was very uncomfortable . So my parents taught me to feel okay with being uncomfortable , to feel okay with anxiety or nervousness of trying things and a tray of failing .
Why would you be uncomfortable ? Obviously you're a smart guy . I'm curious .
Yeah , but I just grew up in a different world than maybe the people I was with . But they also encouraged me to go travel , and they did . They didn't give me all the instructions . They said go lose yourself in a summer . In high school they said you go to Spain . I lived on a cantaloupe farm and I didn't thought I spoke Spanish , so everything I'd done .
They inadvertently talked about hard work and discipline , at the same time helping your neighbor . It was just these core principles that when I got to college I was a sponge for learning a new part of the country that I hadn't spent time with people that were . And then I found myself just I was never the smartest , never the fastest .
I just learned that I was just a hard worker and that work would just pay off at some point . And I think I went into the best job I could get out of college , which ended up being a banking job . I'm my . My father-in-law got sick with Alzheimer's at 55 and left more than bank , and so the family said hey , can you come back ?
For a couple of years they were trying to message all the things going on . So my wife and I , both bankers in Dallas right out of college came here to Little Rock to help them and , being the other family in the state , and I got into banking for a couple years and realized that at nighttime I wanted to try something more interesting .
So I found artists needing housing . So I started developing housing for artists because they were the left behinds . So I did six projects taking historic buildings , converting them into live workspace for artists , using incentives , which then got me into this whole finance , lobbying for incentives for communities to build and working with neighborhood organizations .
So I became this just spastic real estate guy in central Arkansas that was doing all the things that maybe my parents said , but they just saw me as an ex-banker or a banker or a real estate guy and they're like , why don't you do something more creative ? So I took the jobs that I was able to do .
That's a challenging sector to serve because they can't afford anything right I ? Mean so yeah , I can see that would be a challenge .
But I was very good with layering financing sources . So for one project , 15 layers of funding sources to give them $300 a month rent so they can afford it . But I had to do a $3.5 million project to get it down to that level .
But that was a priority for me to set up the co-op for them to select the artist of who could be in the center so anyways , from there to where my company is today , which I can tell about , just gave me this thing that I can do a job that supports my family .
At the same times , make sure that I'm connecting with the things that I grew up that are important to me , whether it's arts , community , serving others , and then economic development , and I can tell more about that .
Wow , that's a big story . I love it , man . So you know , I've always thought that banking is a great place for people to start a career , because you learn so much about business . Oh my God , it's like business case after business case after business case .
I've seen 50 companies in one month , yeah , and after business case after business case , I've seen 50 companies in one month , yeah , and I saw how they did well . Who did well , exactly Pancakes . You'd be surprised at the returns Go into the restaurant .
Is that a ?
good business . They cost like negative two cents and they sell them for $12 . And you can't screw it up . Let's do a freaking pancake business .
I'm just telling you Pancakes , I'm in . I'm just telling you Pancakes , I'm in .
I'm in . I'm in , I got money , I'll put money in it and you're done by like one .
Like I was looking at all these companies . So for me , to your point , it was a great front door to see companies see how people operated , how people . I learned as much about what not to do and how to treat people .
As people treated me , and also bankers , always seem to leave at three , and so what I did is I went and worked other jobs so not to bash the bankers out .
They're bankers hours . They always business develop .
You can do whatever you want if you're a banker after three , but you chose I went to go work on projects , try and buy things and figure out how to do it .
So what was the next step for you ? The next step after Little Rock , so you're living in Little Rock . Then I was living in Little Rock , lived there 13 years .
Four children born there had a great experience . Okay , and I don't want to go down the triad thing , but her father ended up passing away , but it was 10 years in a nursing home , so we ended up spending longer time there . Her mom didn't travel until he passed away .
And then she came down with Lou Gehrig's like the home and he passed on , so we took care of her for uh , fortunately for her , it was a year and a half of Lou Gehrig's disease how did you meet your wife ?
because meeting your wife was what brought you to Little Rock , right ?
it did , it did , I would say um , at a fraternity party and in SMU and my fraternity brother and during pledgeship said will you watch this girl ? And Active's making me take her home . So I watched .
You were pledging . I watched his date and Wow . We're still friends today . That is snaky as hell , dude .
I'll never let you be my wife ? No , absolutely not your wife . We definitely made out that night .
Can I say that it's okay to say that that was not political , that was not religious .
I can already see why you're ahead financially , because you didn't suffer through divorces like the rest of us . The good thing is she did marry the poorest guy I'd ever seen .
So we came out . She was like I could have thrown a dart she found a hardworking soul is what she found .
That's good .
Yeah , she did , and a freaking beautiful , beautiful person . So how long have you guys been married ?
Yeah , 32 years .
Wow , and you had four kids . You said and the last one .
I have one at SMU as a freshman and all the other three boys graduated , one's in New York City , one's in Dallas , both in the investment banking area . And then a son that is a high tech with JB Hunt , just got married last year , lives here in town . He's great , great , so , tech guy that's doing really well . And your daughter does she graduate ?
She graduates at SMU , she's at SMU , she's at SMU . Yep , she has her first uh lacrosse game tomorrow .
She's playing club lacrosse there .
So she's having , so Paul and my middle girl play lacrosse together at Bentonville when we moved here from the Boston area 20 years ago , my now 32 year old daughter was 12 and they said well , what sports do you play ? And she goes well , I do English writing and I play lacrosse . They're like we don't have that here . It's the greatest sport .
But now it's changed .
We're getting more sophisticated . It's a great sport . It's like a club for Bentonville that they play , but which ? Kind of , I mean it's not doesn't make it the best situation for the kids .
She did that . And now what brought you to Fayetteville ? Or where do you live in Northwest Arkansas ? So I started developing .
I live in Bentonville now , okay , and I would have loved to have been on Mount Nord , for example . That was just one of those dream streets for me . But when we came up to Northwest Arkansas I was developing more . I started getting recruited into Northwest Arkansas in 2005 .
¶ Real Estate Development Navigation
And that's when I grew my real estate development firm and I was doing public speaking . I was going around talking about urban development , community development , placemaking , development , but kind of built an early career off that , with a small company of about 20 people doing these really interesting , very difficult projects .
Can I , because I think the listeners want to know this too , because I've always wanted to know . I don't understand , but for both of you , how did you get in ? Like you said , you're a developer , yep , but I mean but , but like y'all just packing together different investors .
so so funny thing about developing is a great question million dollar question because as a banker I controlled the money so I thought development was easy , because I saw these developers making money . Bankers control 75% to 80% of the deal and so I was underwriting these deals , kind of telling them how to run a deal . So you as a banker , you knew the .
You were basically working with the bank . He was providing financing to the developers , financing to the developers , but the developers are really more and I thought I was more in general to the bank , right , yeah ?
that's right . But I thought I was more important than the developers because , like , I got all the money and these guys are making all this money , but I I found myself working with non-profits who I ended up doing a lot of the work for them , developing . Which means they'd kind of say , I want to do this project , to do affordable housing .
I said , okay , we , we got to go hire an architect , a contract . I was showed them how to be be a developer . So I said I'm just going to go hire an architect , a contractor . I showed them how to be a developer . So I said I'm just going to go on that side , showed who how to be a developer .
A nonprofit .
Let's just say Habitat for Humanity said hey , I want to go buy 20 homes . Help me get the financing on that as the banker .
Yeah , because they'd say Habitat for Humanity would go . Hey , paul , you're a banker go . Hey , paul , you're a banker Help me yeah , do this .
And I say , well , do you have a contractor ? Go build us some houses . I said , do you have a contractor ? No , okay , do you have an architect ? No . So I started going through , like , in order for me to give you the money , there's 20 budget items that go into buying the land to finishing the project . You got to have all those contracts lined up .
So I started helping them and I said , well , I'll just go over there .
Contracts for what ? For the ?
land To build the building .
A developer . You don't have to get frustrated at me , Paul . I mean , do you see how mad he just got ?
Mark , I thought your questions were Guys , look , you do that to me a lot too .
Mark , you get mad at me when I ask a question . I don't Pretend I'm one of your listeners , right ?
now . That'd be nice to me . I love you like a son .
Thank you Dad .
So , you don't need to worry about that at all . Forgive us if we come across as condescending .
It's a great point .
¶ Development and Commercial Real Estate
So you're contracting with the architect , contracting with the land owner to buy the land ? Yep .
If it takes $2 million to build a building , there's 20 different line items that go into that . $2 million to build an office building , to build a retail center , to build a house and you have to go enter into a contract for those services to be provided to cost $2 million .
Bank comes in and gives you $1.5 million and then you put $500,000 of cash in and you hope that makes a return or provides for your house . The guy in charge of all those contracts to make sure he does it , he can do it for his own benefit . So you can develop for yourself or you're a third-party developer .
I did both , some for myself and some for third parties . So , I've been very fortunate to do some cool projects here as third-party developers , where a company says you're the developer , I don't want to deal with the contract , the architect , the bank , everything . You just take care of everything .
Sometimes they say we want you to raise the money too , so developers rule , though , is a roller coaster of this . Is the money there . Is construction cost over . Are we delayed ? Is the weather out there ? Can I ?
get it permitted in the first place . I mean all that .
Three stages pre-development , which is to get approval from the city to build what you want to build , and buy the land , do your numbers . Then you have to go build it . Then you stabilize it , get it leased up , get it rented out , get it making a return that you promised one year ago , six months ago . You know some products I worked on for eight years .
I was gonna say years . Yeah , I'll recommend some developers that you could work with . Oh , no , it's , it's . I would love to do it . I , I've done it for a long time .
The problem is I I was trying to feed a family off the roller coaster development , which has no time frame from like I was telling somebody I like to go out and mow my yard because it's it's so gratifying we do , we all , we all work on
I love yard work , yeah I love machines and dirt and yard because you can , you can do it . And it's done .
Can I reintroduce my idea we ?
need to take a break here for a second .
Intermission . My idea is this , Paul no , this isn't an intermission .
This is an intermission on our show .
Our show's the intermission my idea , paul , and I want to see what you think about this is I create a website called the old man's yard club .
I like it .
I love it we write about the joys of doing yard work . We review our latest tools and equipment . Okay , we sell ads . We have a blog .
We trade information the old man's yard club .
I just it's so gratifying anyway , so you get that , so I have developed . It's not always that I just it's so gratifying it is . Anyway , it is so you get that , so I have .
Development is not always that no .
It's not . I understand . I've committed to two businesses just in this one podcast . What development ? What was the one I committed to one just a minute ago ? What is your idea ?
It was so important that I Well , we got a recording of it .
We got at least one idea out of this so far , but I think the genesis is that I'm someone of a thousand mistakes in a development .
You make those . Then what do you do with those is what's the second part of my journey of doing those developments learning what not to do , how to handle people . So it was the most important PhD . It's just not going to be my only business line item . That says how I grow my business , but I loved it and I was sculpting all day .
I got to make 20 contracts I execute . I have the opportunity to say , well , I want to add an artist in here to do a sculpture . I can add a 21st line item if I want to . I said that's cool , so I can put my personality into every project and then I can add a 21st line .
And if I want to , I said that's cool , so I can put my personality into every project and then I can also add in community involvement . We're on . So I got to be the developer .
The problem is just hard to raise a family and that's why I went into growing and scaling a business in commercial brokerage , advising , consulting , property management right , you get paid for everything you do things .
I said I would never , do so basically your brokerage ? Was it more like to consult on the development stuff for other people ? They pay you to run them .
Yeah , the problem is development has a six-month to two-year cycle that I couldn't control .
Brokerage I could sell something you get paid , or you lease something you get paid , you get a commission .
Got it , and then you could also advise , and you got paid by the hour . That's right , retainer or something .
And then if we finish that building I get paid to manage the property for them and I have a team of people that manage . So I got to later in some business so I can still do some . So I have a full service commercial real estate firm , moses Tucker Partners . That's what I do . I've grown it to a hundred people . We're in five states .
Why is it called Moses Tucker ?
Because Chris Moses and I and Fletcher Hanson helped take Jimmy Moses and Rhett Tucker who founded it in Little Rock . They merged in , or I kind of merged in with them , either , how you want to say it , with my company .
I started years ago in Little Rock so I built a firm up Jimmy Moses and Rhett Tucker , who are still on the board of our firm out in the kind of this group of Chris Moses , who's the CEO , and my partner lives in Little Rock , and Fletcher Hanson , the three of us main principals .
There's some others , but we've got a really special group that is across the state that we manage , you know well , over 12 million square feet of properties all over the five . It's a lot of properties and yeah , and I I got I had moved up here in 05 to start working on some specific projects that this area is became on fire . That I just I haven't had .
It's been the best time ever . I'm very lucky and to be a part of this growing community . So I got to see it on the way up . I've made it through 2008 , nine , but in 2010 , my dad not to pivot , but he got sick and so I went back to run the vineyard , kept my company . Where was the vineyard In outside of Cleveland ?
We still own it today and my , my brother and I run it and uh , uh , so we have , we have amazing , it was the first vinifera grapes , uh , uh , grown in a state vineyard in the sixties and my dad , when he passed on , it was on , you know , 89 years old , um and um .
It was almost a COVID event because , uh , when he passed on , everyone made this pilgrims . He was one at the time in the 60s . That was my dad .
Now there's over 200 , and the wine region's huge , so they came back to kind of celebrate that and then we've said , okay , we're going to try and carry on because it's a long business very much like development Not easy . So my brother and sister-in-law run most of the day-to-day but none of us live there . We just all have to hire the team .
So I spent a couple years back there and commuted back and forth working on development projects and that's when I needed to know that I had a bigger team , a bigger scalability , so that I wasn't always required to be there , and that's when we did the merger in 2018 . And that's when we did the merger in 2018 .
I had moved back here , but I was like I see the vision for my where I could be best utilized not in the CEO role , not in the developer role merger of Moses Tucker Partners in my firm at the time where it made this really great regional commercial firm and I can focus on economic development , northwest Arkansas , consulting , advising , brokering , investing ,
developing but doing it at a scale that allows me to be sitting here today and not have to worry about the hammer being .
We've talked about this a lot , mark in our shows , but I think that every entrepreneur probably has like this epiphany one day after doing everything under the sun for their business . Really , the biggest thing for me is going . You know what ? There's people that are better qualified , that can help this business , this entity , this individual human , grow .
It's the company and if I keep doing this , I'm going to suffocate it .
It takes scale , though , to get there . If you are one of these people who says I don't want to grow , yep , I want to be a six-person company forever , well , you'll be trapped . That's right . You will never have those good people who can fill in for the things you're not so good at .
You'll be doing everything did you guys find the same thing in growing your bed , like there's this when you hit four employees to go to seven , it was hard , but then you got easy then and then you got up to 20 . I don't know , at some point there's these natural break points there are .
There's somewhere around 30 employees . I think is a big break point . 25 , 30 employees and you can get past that Don't get impatient .
I would definitely say I got impatient at the same time . That self-realization that I'm not great at every job yeah , don't need to get into the weeds was the greatest revolution . And then I love not being afraid of making mistakes and getting rid of toxic folks in the organization .
So those are wish I had learned them younger . Talk about that a little bit more , man . There's so much that I have about that .
I mean they're a cancer and they will corrupt everybody . So it's like having mold in your house or something . The stuff can spread . Well , yeah , I mean they're a cancer and they will corrupt everybody . Yes , so it's like having mold in your house or something it is . The stuff can spread . You've got to get rid of it quickly and the thing is— .
Sometimes you can reform people by really giving them a strong talking to , but most of the time you can't .
And , just like freaking mold , you can't see it until it's too daggum late .
It's true . And then it's just this nasty freaking fungus . Yeah , you know , and the thing I was talking to somebody about this Huh , negativity , skepticism , everything you post they're skeptical .
Here's the thing that pisses me off about it . Like this thing , I get pretty mad about this because I was talking about somebody the other day . What makes me more mad is not that it hurts my baby , my business , whatever which most people would say that it is , and even the toxic people would say that that's what my problem is .
What pisses me off is what it does to the other people on the team .
Right , Because those other people you can start them out .
They work , they come in , they're excited about the opportunity . They start working hard , they get behind the vision . They build friendships in the organization . Things are going well . They're getting a little raise . People are starting to make money . The shit starts going .
The ship starts going .
Sick bastards come in with their freaking ideology and their leadership and their vision , and then it starts with two and it spreads to four . No-transcript .
It starts with two and it spreads to four , then it spreads to six and these people that are just trying to work hard and do the right thing and are actually progressing and moving forward in life start believing the bullshit , the negativity , and then they come back and they get confused and they come back to the office and they start getting a little depressed .
Maybe I should be thinking like that yeah , maybe I should and maybe , maybe , maybe , mark and paul and eric are crazy idiots
yes yeah , so I'm gonna stop doing that because they're not gonna go anywhere . And then I'm gonna believe this way and I believe there's other people . And then then , all of a sudden , the shit hits the fan and these freaking toxic , nasty , freaking negative bastards go somewhere else , right , and they lose their freaking stuff .
And then you try to recall , you try to bring them back , but they're too far gone . And then they go take a different job that doesn't have anything to do with whatever you did , yeah . And then you look three years down the road and they're doing the same thing , but they could have been making this kind of money .
Or they have left that company and went on to the next one .
And now they're confused and don't trust anybody , right ? I know , but trust anybody right I know , but sorry , what I believe .
I think you're 100 right is that ? I don't um , just because they may be toxic in our organization they're great people they're . They're just not people that fit maybe with the culture that , yeah , I have , and I love your comment as well
¶ Positive Energy and Community Development
. From the first time I met eric , it was the positive energy , the happy go crazy . I did think he was a little crazy , uh , but I need to be around positivity . That helps motivate me positivity and Margo , you brought it up as well . Sometimes it's not even toxic .
It's hard to work sometimes and there's a lot of things going on in people's personal lives , but stay positive . And I realized when I get positive people around me , the office operates more efficient . We work . Maybe it's due to that little extra thing . So both you guys are that way .
I could tell , and it responded immediately to that and I already think I like him better than you , I know .
Should we cut out ?
what just happened . You're all right , paul .
Should we cut out what I just went through Because I went into your room ? No , no , no , no . I mean I do get mad because of what it does to other people .
that are innocent . Exactly Like he can do stuff to me , it's one thing to start a business , okay , and then when you've got these other folks that maybe they came to work for you but they're smarter than you are okay . That's where the problem is , is they'll think of every reason why something won't work . Yeah , and not that we can't think of that stuff .
Okay , but we'd never do a , you'd never be an entrepreneur , you'd never start a business if you were negative because you'd assume you'd fail . That's right , okay , and we all assume we're not going to fail because we're not going to give up , even if we hit obstacles and bumps . We keep going . That's awesome . There it is , isn't it Like Eric ?
you've got to be a , you're a , you're a . Success is based on a thousand failures at least , and that's a compliment , I think . But I think you learn from those thousand failures , just like I did , and I can't I get excited . People don't like it when they say I've failed a bunch of them , but that's how I learned .
It's a question if you keep going failing and never learning from it .
There's two kinds of failure , though in my mind , abject total failure is horrible . We all seek to never have that happen . Failed experiments are another thing . We have a million failed experiments . Failed experiments are great . You can learn from them , as long as you don't bet the whole farm yeah me coming to this podcast today .
This could be a . This was partially a failure .
People could say I never want to deal with that , paul , ever again . You know they would never say that . But you know one thing we came up that came up earlier . Eric was talking about developers .
Okay , I just want to go back to that for a minute , because I've been a developer and I think there's a very negative attitude toward most people in the community toward developers , especially by the city councils and city staffs in many cases , and some of the residents , residents .
The inherent assumption is that you're evil and you're only doing it to make money . And yet when most developers that I know , including myself , the money was way down on the list , I just wanted to do something I thought was cool , that's right and would help the community because I could do it . Oh , that's it , isn't that the truth .
That's it . The problem is one people don is one out of a hundred . People don't understand that One out of a hundred . There's one out of a hundred that are bad that maybe you shouldn't have done that , did something wrong , but most of us really want to connect with the community .
next , to us Exactly we want to engage it . Do something special and be that artist is your project , it is .
Public . There's certain artwork you look at and you're like , okay , that's not great , but I appreciate your passion , so this very similar development .
So what we need as a community is not to reject developers , but to embrace them , engage them , find the ones there , encourage them , provide policies , things that provide support , the things that are great about it , and it's a beautiful thing and it's so important . You can't have . We have 10 billion dollars worth of construction .
There's so many people developing , coming from all over the country that want to invest their money , provide , be an artist here . We have to be receptive to that . It's just there . Right now we're all learning about how to deal with outsiders , insiders , how we're building this community .
We're building an entire university of Arkansas up in Bentonville in like three years . Okay , that's how big the just one project .
It's amazing . I mean , then if you go , to any other town .
South Fayetteville , to right P Ridge , is going to be the fourth biggest town here and it's like you know , it's like the towns around us they're getting their own years . We're getting it over 10 . I know .
It's so true , but what I don't like is the attitude of a lot of people . As I said , it's the presumption is one of guilt , as it relates to you as a developer , that somehow you're evil because you want to build something , and the other one is the anti-change people . They're all it's like keep Fayetteville funky . You've seen the bumper stickers right ?
yes and and , and that's interpreted . I had a guy say to me once on Facebook which I can't stand by the way years ago it said and we were just talking about him this morning , um , because the house he lived in was sold recently and somebody came in and just cleaned everything out . They just clear , cut the yard , stripped all the crap out of it .
This guy was like a hoarder and had like 20,000 pots in his yard and anyway . But he said to me once online this is the historic district , not the changed district . What I'm like , dude , because of all the houses that we've redone here . Yes , okay , we've made this a nice area that's worth a lot of money , oh my God .
And it's beautiful , right , and is attracting people who are also making improvements in the area . It's a good thing .
Well , it's not the changed district , who are also making improvements in the area . It's a good thing . Well , it's not the change to district . So there is actually what I tell people .
There's four quadrants If you can imagine a bullseye and I've got a square and there's four quadrants that make a great experience and I call it the it factor , and so I've written about it a little bit . When the it factor is like what creates , like , why do you go like man ? I bit with the it factor .
It's like what creates , like why do you go like man ? I want to take a picture there . That moment's cool , that sign is great . If you want to take a picture , you've created an it . So in real estate I try and do it with the projects , the exterior , the facade , the artwork , the people and how I incorporate it .
That it factor is actually some science behind it . One of those pieces is almost the history , the education you get out of it . You can have three of the four quadrants , but the history , or tying into the community , the neighborhood , that is one of them . So you can have a great experience , but always historic makes you tied to where you're escaping .
So I say that because I believe hugely in historic preservations for multiple reasons .
I do too . I mean , we've had best . We got awards for best historic preservation , best adaptive reuse , all developer of the year , all that Love it Because I believe in the contextual architecture . Now , a lot of architects don't go for that . I understand .
They want to shock and awe architecture which is like look at me , look at me , look at me , I am completely different from everything around here . Doesn look at me , look at me , I am completely different from everything around here .
Doesn't that shock you ?
They teach them that in architectural school they are taught that and I had . I had a . I used to teach an architectural school class called everything . They don't usually teach you in architectural school . Okay , I would love to be in fifth year students Eric and I would be really good in that , but they , they . I remember this .
One kid said to me we went and looked at some projects one day and he says to me he goes , you know , he goes . I don't think what you do is very good , you don't push the bounds of architecture in any way . I wanted to say to the kid , like F you yeah , I was going to say that . That's right . Okay , what have you done ?
All right , yeah , the 19-year-old was like yeah , but , I mean yeah but , but obviously but but it's like well , we , we see our stuff . It's just part of the . It's got to fit the context . It's just one little element in the greater scheme of the community . Love it , you know . But I agree with what you said
¶ The Importance of the "It Factor"
. I never called the it factor . I would just say every project's got to have one thing that wows people . Yeah , they , I have one thing that wows people . Whenever they see it , they're like that's the thing that sticks . If it doesn't have that , it actually loses value .
For all our Springdale listeners out there . I fully support them . But , like 20 years ago they asked me to do at their chamber event in front of 400 people asked . So they were like , well , tell us something about Springdale . I said I asked them . I said what is your it factor ? What do you go and take a picture of ?
And they've done an amazing job over the last five years . It is taking off now , but 20 years ago they didn't know what picture they would take , at what place . I said where's your moment where you send your grandmother and say , hey , I'm here .
They have done it now and I'm super proud 71B and Sunset , with 168 foot wide right-of-way and utility lines everywhere . Yeah , I told my picture was getting chicken at Neal's . I loved getting chicken at .
Neal's , I've said that's kind of an inbound , that's kind of a cool iconic spot , right , but I force people to think about it on a micro level and on a macro level of saying what do you like ? taking a picture of what he's like taking a picture of the 8th street market .
When I we decided to put the eight , we made it big and orange and we knew great project that that one would take a ton of pictures like people were just going to stand and take that picture and then we could brand it and market it . But we we had to take an old chicken plant and say we're going to make this a culinary center .
So we did the opposite and everyone said tear the building down . I would say 60% of the walls fell down during construction . I still said put it back up because that was where the chicken was breaded for Wendy I think it was called the crispy chicken .
But I think the story of the history and the symbolism that ties back to now it's food and innovation was like this thing that we forced to a product that would have been easier building brand now .
What's the picture ?
place in Springdale now , then I would say their downtown has probably 10 . And even West Springdale is starting to grow and have these moments . I think they have lots of places now . I think it's got their multicultural and of so many different groups coming together , some of the hardest working people .
They have symbols of that throughout all their parks that they're redeveloping .
Their parks are fantastic Spectacular Schools have gotten better , in some cases better than Fayetteville , you know .
Again , I mean we've said this on prior shows , but you got to give credit to the Northwest Arkansas council , yeah , yeah , because they really did sort of engineer these unique identities for each one of the towns in my opinion and have put this thing together , which now it's achieved this sort of critical mass where , like you said , everybody's coming here .
We've got something for everybody .
And every place has a little bit of an identity .
It does . They all have a unique identity .
Well both you guys have had successful businesses , paul . I get to be the announcer now , but don't you feel that ?
I think what I felt about this and I've lived other places was that because of I felt like everyone was on the same railroad tracks , even though there's all these different opinions , different cultures , I felt like it was a good place to do business and to grow a small business and be an entrepreneur .
It's fantastic , I agree . Well , we both came here about the same time , because I came here in 04 . Okay , so I think I bought my first house before here 2000 , 2001 . Okay yeah , Well , all of us said not too far apart , Was it ?
This was you know what I , like I think is unique about this area and you've lived different places so you can attest to this . Yeah , we welcome outsiders here . Yeah , this is not like the old guard hates everybody and we're on our own little click over here and we , you're not part of our culture . It's not like the deep South .
Yeah , it's the gateway to the wild West .
I agree it's great . I think when you came here , Eric , I agree it's great I think , when you came here , eric , with the prison system . I felt like that was . Can I say ?
that Well , honestly , to give us credit , we kind of went through a lot of deals you did .
You did . I mean you got the worst of the worst entering into a nice place . It includes us . That's hysterical , I mean . I think that the I came here honestly the reason I came here was for the outdoor .
Was but the reason I came here was for the outdoor .
Was it ? Oh , absolutely A hundred percent .
I wanted to go somewhere to start an outdoor magazine in Arkansas .
What was it ?
Please tell me Get Out .
Magazine . I know Get Out , Get Out bro , Get Out . Bro had great photography . We were just a little bit ahead of time .
We were ahead of time . There was only like one mountain bike and trail in Devil's Den when we first started our magazine . Actually , if you look today , oh , I know .
We were just ahead of the time . Well , nobody reads even magazines now . So imagine it , you'd be broke . I had six magazines . They suck . Eric worked on them . He was there the day we bought them . Okay , okay .
Listen we bought- .
Let's open up about that . This will sound like Paul .
I think , we finally hit the subject .
We bought $3.4 million in prior year revenue Wow Magazines . This is great For $165,000 . Wow , isn't that right ? That's certain .
Tell them why .
We lost 90 grand the first month . That's beautiful , okay , this is .
This is why I that's why it was such a good deal we were riding that thing down . It was like we choked on that thing . It was going down .
So fast but I didn't know . This was a therapy program for small businesses .
We did pull out to those times , but this is awesome but yeah , we did sell .
We did pull out . This is great , this is awesome . We did some good things , anyway . No , we did .
But yeah , outdoor Outdoor area . We're glad you came , you know it's like man , I want to tell a story of outdoors in Arkansas . But to your point about the community , here's what's fantastic about it , yeah , is you can drive 15 minutes in your paradise . You know you really are around here . I mean , I think that Downtown Bentonville is paradise .
Wait a minute .
I don't even have to go 15 minutes , I think the growing opportunities will continue to be around outdoor recreation across this region in a way that is special and unique .
¶ Outdoor Economic Development and Building Revitalization
We see them and hear about them every day and I think whatever you see now in outdoor rec , I think it's going to be 10 , 20-fold the next 10 years and I think it brings this sense of it's the greatest economic development story that will get told , because we used to do industrial development and growing of a community through industrial parks , give away free
land to build a plant , so people move their town and tax incentives and utility rebates we're attracting the smartest interesting diverse group of people that like to go outside and connect how . Yes , there's going to be some challenges with what you've said about not bringing people in that are against new change , but we're changing .
But we're changing this beautiful kaleidoscope of ideas and people that are outdoor thinking , community minded , and I think that's going to make us a healthier state region .
I agree . I just wish this would spread outside this region and part of the rest of the state . I think it naturally will . I really do .
It'll take a while . It'll take some time for that , I think the further you spread out it'll become , you'll hit points of just resistance every time as it continues to grow , did you ?
guys find that this we're setting an example , though we are no for sure . Listen , I can tell you my opening comment about the context of growing an estate high-end vineyard in Ohio is the same as people's reaction when I said I'm moving to Arkansas . They're saying is everything okay ? And then I've got this amazing winery .
He's like we're not going to buy your wine , paul , at this restaurant because no one's going to want give me your best Ohio estate .
recently I feel the same thing about Arkansas when people say hey , come here to develop .
It's like why . So I think , by changing that narrative . We're doing it . It takes time . It takes time . It takes effort . It takes shows like this . It takes people getting out there seeing small entrepreneurs grow , and so I will give you guys some wine , yeah .
I'll give you some wine .
What's it called ? It's free to Mark and it'll cost you $60 .
I'll just go hang out with Mark and drink his free wine .
We should have some of this wine here now we should . Why didn't you bring some wine ? What kind of freaking guest are you ?
The funny thing was when I would go to church with my dad . He sang in the choir with my mom . They would in the back of his pickup truck . He carried the wine because he would . Just if he saw someone he would next thing , you know . Or if he needed new tires for the truck , he needed new tires for the truck he would give them a case of wine .
I mean , he bartered that stuff all the time and people would show up after he passed a wine . I was like well , how much do I owe you for this cement you poured back here . Well , that's six bottles . I was like is that how he did it , that's why I have no expenses or revenues for the entire company .
But I find that I've carried it in it , I think .
I'm actually working on a project , which will be another small business adventure , of trying to bring it here in a unique way that I can . It's a pretty special story and there was a nice book written on it in the last couple years about my dad .
That tells and I only say it to be he used to love vitamin D through getting sun , so every day from 1 to 3 , he would go out to the vineyard naked to get his vitamin 3 . Well , I sent a customer out there . I was up there and I was like , yeah , dad , he's out in the vineyard in like row 10 .
I had no idea that what he did in row 10 was good . Now he's 88 , and he stands up and walks towards the customers and they're trying to act like this is normal , but I could tell you it would be a whole show just on my dad but it was those things that I would scare the customers away .
I can see you doing that .
No .
But you guys have no fear . My dad , though , would have done that . He would have been just like yours . He would do it Come on , there it is . I have nightmares like that , okay of like walking around .
All nightmares are pre-med no pants on . I mean , it's Of you doing those things . It's a fear that you're going to break through . Is that , yeah , five years . You're going to be doing it .
I do not plan on walking around with no pants and not being able to find the class that I should have been at longer . That's exactly what's going to happen .
I have no plan on doing that .
I feel like we're right on script , by the way .
Let's bring it back for now . We got to wrap this thing up and put a bow on it here shortly , paul . So you got this business . Now Are you still doing any development ? I mean you got your brokerage and consulting . That's a big operation .
What kind of ?
development . Are you doing ?
Our firm is working on downtown Springdale . We've converted the first security bank building , working for some great investors and partners with us in that and taking the key intersection of Emma and the creek there and the journal . It's been in the works for literally five years . I mean I can't—the amount of infrastructure needed to be repositioned .
They have really done a lot with the river and the Emma Street and all that .
It's spectacular , but it's been like we had to start eight years ago with a master plan , to then start after the master plan got done , to then install the design and ideas and so super excited about that project and believe again , downtown Springdale is is going to be this really interesting story .
This second thing is I'm doing a handful of things around downtown Bentonville . We announced working with a partner on a YT bike set of Germany is going to have kind of us operations at what they call a mill right next to the to the ledger . It's a spectacular project bringing this international .
It'll be like a museum-quality experience for how you understand the YT Bike brand and their name . So super excited about that one . That is cool . And then just have a handful of other smaller , I'd say adaptive reuse of building structures we're both doing for some myself , some for clients of repositioning existing assets .
So , yeah , can you help me with my driveway ? I will .
Thank you . Why don't we have that solved ? I said , you do an engineer , I know .
But it's just a blessing , I mean , no , he's great .
Okay .
It's just the construction , it's the cost . Oh yeah , I need some concrete . No , you don't have any free concrete .
It's hard to get concrete . This is a Walmart headquarters project . It's super expensive .
It's gone up a lot and you're not going to like the price . No , I need a nook up . I need you guys , let's talk off . I got one .
I may be able to help you . But anyway , eric bought a couple of buildings down there in downtown .
Yeah , but they'll be cool . I can be super cool and I think most importantly we learn about buildings is they can have .
I always like great architecture on the outside or interesting architecture , but second , it's what you do inside , as someone opened up on the square and it I hope she's not listed , but I doubt she is she came in from out of town and it just poorly executed . They plugged an old cassette player , turned the music on .
It was crackly , there was no decorations , that looked like there was any thought into it , the food had no purpose to it and she's like I'm not getting any revenue . I'm like you have the number one location and you just missed it and you can tell them .
So I think I tell people all the time you just you can have a great building , but you gotta know how to put it . I think what Eric will do and what you guys and I do . It's just about how you make it come alive and there's gotta be a lot of thought in that . That is a there's gotta be some freaking soul in it . Gotta be some soul .
Everybody loves soul . We're all humans . It's an indictment .
Do you ever think , eric , let's talk about this a little bit . I like it , I'm not ready . I think you've got so much soul . Where's that come from ? Where's it come from the sun , your sun , the sun , all right , Mark , let's go to hell Water .
Water too .
Are we going water water ?
too . Are we gonna go to flat earth next ? No , does it really come to ? This comes from the sun and water . I know the sun really comes from I love that , okay , I have .
It's pretty simple and sometimes there has been experiences where I mean , honestly , probably the happiest moment in my entire life , yes was when I had true revelation of the apple , when I took a bite of it and I was like this is the most magical thing that's ever been created . That's so simple because you weren't distracted at the moment . I wasn't distracted .
I understood living in the present , living in the present , and they're like this this is truth , yeah do you search ?
do you search for that , that , that soul project ? Sometimes ? I mean , do you ever have a challenge with wrestling the necessity or need versus the wind ? It you know , get , I don't know I well .
I'm pretty much out of the development business at this point . We've sold everything and we got rid of our general contractor's license and all that , yeah , but no , I , that's why I liked houses . I mean , I strayed into commercial too , you know , with multifamily and all that . But the house is such a personal thing .
Yeah , I always tried to imagine who would live there and what they'd be like and how they were going to use that , yeah , and then design it around them even though they aren't there yet . Love that and that . I don't know if that's soul or what , but that's . You know .
You got to think about the people and I think that's a problem with a lot of architects and developers is they ? They don't really like people .
Okay .
Sure , you've got to like people and and that's gotta be the focus of any business you know the customer or the end user , in our case , as a developer . How are they going to experience this ? How are they going to use this ?
I think that's a million dollar question , but it's . It is how to control or use or be motivated by . What motivates us in finding products that are soul driven is the most awesome , as long as you understand the financial consequence . But I always challenge that , both personally and professionally . Things I work on , but I love it . That is where I'm at .
We're around people that do it with that . It's coming from somewhere else .
It's mission bound right . You got purpose behind what you're doing . I think that's the big and that's you said it earlier like it's like's like one of the last things on the list , as you as a developer , is the financial outcome .
Yeah , right , there's all these other reasons . I just don't want to lose money , right ? Yeah , exactly , I don't necessarily think I'm going to have to make a lot of money , right , you know , absolutely .
I know . So we started something because I love working with nonprofits . I've sat on boards , did all that and then I started getting asked to just give a check , and I just said so . We brought on someone named Ken Weatherford , who's kind of in . He does beers and hymns . He also serves a lot of nonprofits and what he does .
So we have a whole division now that just focuses on . There are so many nonprofits . There are so many churches , schools that don't have that real estate expertise , that need office space , that need lease space , that want to grow .
So sometimes we get paid , sometimes we don't , but I'd rather help them with their needs than write them a check to a chicken dinner and I apologize for all the chicken dinner folks out there , which are amazing , you're right , though , so give me a task . So what we do is try and align ourselves with those churches .
Right now , the whole funding model's changed , so I'm saying well , you've got a $2 million piece of parking lot that's only used for Sundays , so let's reposition it .
I know it always bugs me the poor utilization of their great facilities .
I can endow your church . You can earn 5% on that $2 million and you still get the parking space . I'll still give you the parking space .
Let's just do something .
So anyway , I say that to be that I can see an opportunity there and how you help them . So that's just been a new endeavor the last couple of years and we've had so many great . The conversation means we have now that we can is probably one of those fun things . That and someone that wants to spend that time , because some of these are long leading things .
Anyway .
So good stuff Back to you , paul . Yeah , how long do you plan on working ? Have you thought , I mean , you could probably not work right now ?
No , I 100% have to work . I honestly love . I probably will do it .
¶ Community Building and Giving Back
Retirement is not a word or slowing down . I actually just feel like what I've been given is the gift of 50 plus years of experience that if I give it away now I want to share it .
So I'm into the sharing time and to that , but so but that means mentoring , coaching , helping , advising and the more I can pass it on so that there's more disciples , so to speak , that that are happy with , like you said , positive , soul searching , practice , really building the community .
And this community is at a special , special place right now that I see this area . For me , you know , 10 years of really fun , important work in economic development . So , yeah , there's no , I'm not even remotely . I'll be a hundred and I will still be like I said . I'm still talking entrepreneurial projects , just like I know I can't help it .
I mean , and it most likely , I hope that I can just be a piece of the community . That's added a little bit of fun and you know humor , I I've never had a serious day . I've never had a serious day .
Oh , lord a serious day , even a moment for eric is hard . A moment is a serious moment . It's difficult . If I do have a serious day , please , yeah , call it , yeah that's why it's so much fun call the hospital yeah , let's listen to you there , paul . I mean , my thought is you should be teaching .
I mean that's what I teach at u of a and I've been there and I love it . So glad you do . Actually , you really should be doing it because you know it is a good way to give back and to help other people . It's also a great way to spot talent . Yeah , for your businesses .
It's a great idea .
It really is Great idea , thank you , and you would be fantastic at it , I think , as is Eric . I mean , he's great too , but Eric doesn't have a master's degree .
He has a master's in a lot of things we can't hire him .
I mean it's I'm out you're out he's out , he's got . I mean , that's the unfortunate aspect of the of the education system you have to have a master's you have to be in teaching at the ? U of a in the college of business . Come , yeah , man , it's a minimum . You listen , if you have a master's , we're still peons compared to the phd .
So we still talk to undergraduates like you .
Yeah , we but the , the doing , the , the , the knowledge that eric's gained by doing is immense . Yeah , that's , that's part of the reason why we do this podcast . We want people to learn from the experience of other successful people .
Yeah , you know you've got a lot to share that and to inspire what you were talking about , about like , let's keep going , let's keep building , make things better . I mean we've always as humanity has always made things a little bit better all the time . We can't let that slow down .
And we've got to continue to rehabilitate the image of business people in the eyes of non-business people . True , I do think that's important because they need to understand that it's not all just about selfishness and making money . It's so different , there's so much more to it than that there is .
It's actually a lot of times I mean , I know , for me it's the opposite of all those things .
It is . I agree , People are not taught the skills of engaging their community always , and so it's that awkward connection of 70% of the people aren't really engaged or don't know how to , or feel uncomfortable . There's a fear , there's a I don't know enough , but I do want to complain or I do want to not like us . So it's .
We just don't teach that to our kids . So my job , my legacy that's why I'll never retire is because my kids are watching me . That is the most important thing . I'm teaching them every day about what it is to work , how I operate , how I handle communities , how I laugh at tragedy .
Those are the things that those are some valuable lessons and I know they're going to have four kids , and then we're going to have five .
So we've just got to start really at the grassroots level , family to family , start teaching about the importance of that triple bottom line , whether it's your environment , the community and making it . You do have to make it At some point .
If no one makes a return , whether it's 2% or 200% , then we have a non-growing community that needs money or support from someone else and you can't control your environment . We should be able to plant everything we need here to eat what we need to and make a living off it . So I agree .
I think it helps everybody so well with that note . Um , unfortunately we're gonna have to end the show , but we'd love to have you back , john . It's great talking with you , paul . We'd love to have you back , paul . I've just been wanting to call him Jeff all day . I appreciate that Sorry . No .
Cut that Cut .
No , don't cut it , that's fine because I remember I did it one time .
We'd love to have you back , Paul Amongst friends .
Still most people know me as Pablo . I was going to have you back , paul . Amongst friends still most people know me as Pablo and I say that I was going to bring that up , dude Pablo .
Oh , so they call you Pablo . I heard , that actually .
The reason why I just We'll finish it with that . You were trying to end nicely . Anyway , it's okay , Paul .
No , I was going to say we need to have you back , but I did hear of Pablo , referenced recently in a real estate conversation . Would that have been you ?
That would have been me , so yes it would have been . It is Perfect time . My mom used to write me notes to the fraternity house and she just wrote it as Pablo and she wanted me to keep my sense of humor and I lived in Spain for a while and that was my name when I lived in high school in Spain and you're an artist .
And basically , to this day , most everyone knows me as Pablo . And then I kept it and I kind of push it because it creates— you push it , I do push it because I'm almost like it's funny . I want you to know I'm not—it's funny , yeah , don't take me— Because you're the opposite of what I think Pablo would be .
I love it now when I'll have a super serious conversation , got six executives on there and then one person's like Pablo . What should we do in this situation ? The entire room , the whole conversation , but for me , I'm okay just saying that the world is too short . I love it . It's fun . It brings me back to my mom and my history with Spanish and culture .
So hey , jeff , or Jeff .
I tell you guys .
My wife called her brother-in-law married to her sister . You know they only got married a couple three years ago . For some reason she started calling him Butch . She didn't know his real name , or she thought it was Butch , and nobody else said anything , just let it go . Anyway , sorry about that , but um , we'd love to have you back , Paul .
It's been a treat . Thank you , and um , you're a lot of fun to talk with and I think you got a lot to offer . It's great to see you being successful . It's great to see you being motivated by doing something good for the community , Cause I I think that Because I think that's really important .
And I just want to say that one of the things that also Eric the guy is more involved with community events . Every time I show him he was there , but he was there in the front row helping out . I do appreciate it and that kind of energy motivates and we need more crazy Erics in the world . And Mark , you're right , I've been . It's , it's a tree , it's .
It's so glad to actually be here . It's like you've been . People have actually said we need to connect , to meet and you , I appreciate both y'all which y'all do for everybody Well thanks .
It's great being here , and and so this has been another episode of big talk about small business .
¶ Online Contact Information and Giveaways
You can check us out at wwwbigtalkaboutsmallbusinesscom . And , paul , if anybody wants to get ahold of you , what is your email address , pablo ?
Just Bob , I would say it's Pesterer at Moses Tuckercom P-E-S-T-E-R-E-R . Could you spell that ? Moses Tuckercom P Esther . Could you spell that ? Yes , it's P E S T E R E R at Moses .
Tuckercom . Great Well , we appreciate your being here .
How does somebody get ahold of a free case of wine ?
Yeah that we'll talk offline .
You're buying lunch .
All right and click on the Ask the Host button for the chance to have your questions answered on the show . Stay connected with us on LinkedIn at Big Talk About Small Business , and be sure to head over to our website to read articles , browse episodes and ask questions about upcoming shows .